Subject Tests v. AP Tests

[LisaKinVA]

I could have sworn I've seen a topic like this before...but searching wasn't giving me anything...so here goes:

 

I understand that many colleges would like to see Subject Tests -- are these tests *in addition to* any AP Tests your child may take?

 

For example, if my son takes AP Biology, AP Chemistry and AP Physics 1 & 2 (4 Science APs), would he still need to take a Science Subject Test?

If he takes Calc BC, would he still need to take Math 2?

 

I don't want to pay for extra tests if I don't have to...and if we're going to have to do both, I'd like to know so I can schedule them appropriately.

 

Thank you.

[Jen in NY]

The short answer is maybe....

 

MY long answer is: if your ds has already prepped for the AP, have him prep for the SATIIs and take them the June after the AP. Many (if not all) of the schools my dd applied to required two or three SATIIs from all applicants, not just HSers. AP tests were not 'required', although I am sure they were considered in the application process.

 

I know it's hoop jumping, but depending on where he ends up applying you may be thankful to have jumped through the hoops at the time of optimum convenience for you both.

 

BUT I wouldn't just send him in cold... esp. for the Math. It's not calc on the Math exam, and the scoring is harsh. (780=75% or something like that.) DD#2 took the Math2 before Calc, and did really well... so maybe get a prep book soon? (I like Dr Chung's:http://www.amazon.com/John-Chungs-Math-Level-Edition/dp/148196321X) It's nice to have two subject tests out of the way for her already... things are getting tight this year for her and she's got enough to worry about. She'll likely take the Physics SAT at the end of this year, and potentially call it done with Standardized testing at that point. :)

[regentrude]

Yes, some posters here reported that some colleges who required SAT subject tests did not accept AP tests as substitutes. Is that stupid? Yes, I think so. But they get to make their rules, and if you want in, you jump through whatever hoop they say to jump.

The only way to find out is to ask the individual colleges.

[Muttichen]

If a school requires subject tests, they won't accept AP scores as a substitute.  We did both.

[Lori D.]

Here's that recent thread explaining the differences: AP and/or SAT2 tests?

 

 

In answer to your specific situation/questions: It all depends on what universities DS plans to apply to.

 

For many schools, the AP will be plenty to show high level of working, plus high scores on the AP may either earn him some college credit, or at least allow him to do college honor's courses.

 

However, a number of universities require anywhere from 2 to 5 SAT Subject scores -- some require them JUST from homeschoolers as "proof of mommy grades", but most of the schools that require SAT Subject tests require them from ALL applicants, as proof of solid high school level working, since the quality of high school coursework varies so widely. Here is a list from Compass Education Group of universities and how they view the SAT Subject tests, and here is Radner High School's list, drawn from the yearly College Board College Handbook (schools are listed by state). Do not consider either a complete list, or an up-to-date list -- just a starting point, to get a feel for what schools "do" SAT Subject tests. As always, check directly with the school of interest -- AND check each year, as schools can change admission requirements from one year to the next.

 

For schools which REQUIRE the SAT Subject tests, NO, you cannot substitute AP / ACT / SAT or other tests.

 

For schools which RECOMMEND, or that CONSIDER the SAT Subject tests, you will likely be able to substitute the AP tests, or possible SAT or ACT scores. Be sure to ask the universities well in advance of admissions, so you would have time to take SAT Subject tests, in case they really do make a big difference to the school for admission or financial aid.

 

 

So, the key is to know already -- where does DS want to apply? And if any of the schools on his list want SAT Subject tests, then schedule to take them close to the time he takes the similar AP test, while all the information is fresh.

 

Or, alternatively, you may decide that any school requiring SAT Subject tests will be automatically scratched off your list of possibilities... Esp. schools that require the tests ONLY from homeschoolers certainly sound like they may be not only difficult to work with for admissions, but the instructors may have an "attitude" against homeschoolers as well -- NOT the ideal learning setting and encouraging situation for your student...

 

Quite a few homeschoolers here have decided to just eliminate schools requiring SAT Subject tests from their lists, and their students have done great at other schools; there are far fewer schools which require the SAT Subject tests than those that don't, so that can be a great option for reducing stress, money expenditure, and for whittling down those huge lists of college possibilities! ;)

 

BEST of luck as you work your way through deciding! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Luckymama]

Dd will take the Math 2 subject test as soon as she finishes precalculus. Like the next possible testing date!

 

To cover all possible bases, I'm planning on her taking three subject tests (Math 2, probably physics, and US History). I am requiring her to take one of the AP English exams, AP Calc BC (after AoPS Calc), one science, and one history or social science.

 

She will most likely be taking classes at the state flagship university in math after she exhausts AoPS choices and in Arabic after the first two years.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Another consideration. I asked about AP and SAT subject tests at one school that does not require subject tests (Miami University in Ohio). Not only do they not require SAT Subject Tests, but the admissions counselor said that because they don't require them, they wouldn't have a good context for evaluating subject test submissions by homeschoolers. She was an adcon with lots of experience and one who was comfortable discussing homeschooler applications.

 

So while having some great subject test scores might catch someone's eye at this particular school, in general, they weren't going to add much to the application.

[MysteryJen]

Ds1 wrote off any schools that required subject tests and/or additional hoops for homeschoolers. It certainly eliminated a lot of stress here.

[Supertechmom]

My viewpoint is we use the SAT  subject test to verify the grades on the transcript. If the kid has an A on the transcript and over 700 on the subject test, then I feel that my "mommy grade" isn't going to be questioned (if it even is going to be questioned) Just an assurance to me that he did learn something. :lol:   As luck would have it, the schools he wants to go to require SAT subject tests from everybody.   So the money was well spent.

[LisaKinVA]

Well...this will change how we go about doing things, definitely.

 

I'm going to eliminate the Biology AP exam, he can take the Bio Subject Test (which will probably be easier for him, anyhow).  He'll have to take Math 2 next year (after Pre-Calc, and he'll be doing math review along the side).  I'm going to reduce the number of AP Tests he takes...there's just no reason to take that many tests (I have no idea what colleges he'll be applying to (and I'm pretty sure he's not getting college credit at any of the highly selective schools he's expressed an interest in attending.) 

 

Better to be safe than sorry at this point, I guess.

 

So...testing schedule will be Biology Subject Exam in the fall 2014, ACT fall 2014, Math 2 Spring 2014,...just need one more subject test...maybe Literature?  Any suggestions?  I wasn't planning on having this child take the AP English or Literature exams, but I was planning on having him take the AP Gov't and History exams...because if he was going to get college credit, it would be in the humanities general ed requirements v. math/science.

 

Thank you so much -- you all have saved me time, money and unneeded stress!

 

Lisa

[Muttichen]

 I'm going to reduce the number of AP Tests he takes...there's just no reason to take that many tests (I have no idea what colleges he'll be applying to (and I'm pretty sure he's not getting college credit at any of the highly selective schools he's expressed an interest in attending.) 

 

 

If he's planning to apply to highly selective schools, I'd plan to have him take as many APs as possible.  The colleges expect to see them, and the students he is competing with for admission will be taking them.

[Jen in NY]

If he's planning to apply to highly selective schools, I'd plan to have him take as many APs as possible.  The colleges expect to see them, and the students he is competing with for admission will be taking them.

I would have to agree with this... I think they want to see APtests and other stuff, too. (Start having the convo now: *you are not where you get accepted* *you are more than the college application process*.)

 

Surprisingly, dd was able to get credit for all of her 5's... although she opted not to take the credit for physics because she wanted to take it at school.

 

College admissions is really kind of a mish-mash - you and your son will have to decide what's right for him - the mishin' or the mashin'. At some point you play the high stakes admissions game or you don't. dd#1 really wanted to play the game. dd#2 not so much. ds just wants to be a lego designer. :)

[Barbara H]

My caution is do not rely on general lists of what colleges require SAT subject tests. The minimum requirements are often different from what students who get admitted will actually have. Also, many colleges have specific SAT subject test requirements for homeschoolers and these are not reflected on the general lists. While there a handful of schools who want more three is for many selective schools a pretty safe bet including one of them math, which should be math 2 if your student does anything remotely STEM oriented. Here's some additional information about SAT subject tests for homeschoolers.

 

And, yes, it is all way too much testing, but depending on your student's goals it can be necessary. Just for whatever reason DO NOT add up how much money total you give to the ACT and College board including sending scores. For students applying to selective schools it is can be really scary. For some it pays off big time, but it is frustrating when it feels like a lot of the testing is unnecessary.

[LisaKinVA]

If he's planning to apply to highly selective schools, I'd plan to have him take as many APs as possible.  The colleges expect to see them, and the students he is competing with for admission will be taking them.

 

 

I would have to agree with this... I think they want to see APtests and other stuff, too. (Start having the convo now: *you are not where you get accepted* *you are more than the college application process*.)

 

Surprisingly, dd was able to get credit for all of her 5's... although she opted not to take the credit for physics because she wanted to take it at school.

 

College admissions is really kind of a mish-mash - you and your son will have to decide what's right for him - the mishin' or the mashin'. At some point you play the high stakes admissions game or you don't. dd#1 really wanted to play the game. dd#2 not so much. ds just wants to be a lego designer. :)

 

 

Then we get into the problem of "How many APs are enough?"  I don't want him to take APs just to take more APs, and from what I've read -- colleges tend to be more interested in the whole student more than just checking off boxes.

 

Not having AP Biology should not hurt his chances at USNA/USMMA/MIT/Cal Tech if he still has AP Chem, and AP Physics 1 & 2.  Having 4 years of math that may include Pre-Calc, Calc 1, Calc 2 and Calc 3, with the additional courses of Number Theory and Counting & Probability (only taking the Calc BC exam) should be of more interest than taking say...AP Environmental Science.  Having 4 years of Italian (we'll see about the AP there), and 4 years of Russian, playing competitive water polo and completing his Eagle project this year should be of more interest than whether or not he took AP Psych or AP Music Theory.  I'm sure my son has the ability to take and do very well on multiple AP exams, but IMHO, he shouldn't take an AP course (because there is a test) at the expense of something different in an expressed area of interest.

 

At minimum, I expect he'll take 6 AP exams (which would actually be on the low-side) At maximum, he could take roughly 24 exams, but doing so would be at the expense of something else that, while not an AP course, is extremely worthwhile (I should note, that we will not able able to take the Computer Science AP exam, since it is not able to be given here, but he probably will take several computer science/programming & design courses).  In the end, he'll probably wind up with about 8+ AP Exams, and 3 Subject exams, which should be more than enough.  Trade offs exist.  It is a zero-sum exercise.  If a college would rather have my kid take AP Music Theory instead of robotics or an advanced course in python -- than it's not a school that's interested in my kid.  

[Jen in NY]

Sounds like you have it all mapped out. I thought you were talking a few APs v. one or two. :) He'll likely be a very attractive college admissions candidate!

[LisaKinVA]

My caution is do not rely on general lists of what colleges require SAT subject tests. The minimum requirements are often different from what students who get admitted will actually have. Also, many colleges have specific SAT subject test requirements for homeschoolers and these are not reflected on the general lists. While there a handful of schools who want more three is for many selective schools a pretty safe bet including one of them math, which should be math 2 if your student does anything remotely STEM oriented. Here's some additional information about SAT subject tests for homeschoolers.

 

And, yes, it is all way too much testing, but depending on your student's goals it can be necessary. Just for whatever reason DO NOT add up how much money total you give to the ACT and College board including sending scores. For students applying to selective schools it is can be really scary. For some it pays off big time, but it is frustrating when it feels like a lot of the testing is unnecessary.

 

Math 2 is a given...he'll be taking that at the end of his Freshman year.  I'm planning on Biology and probably English literature for him as well.  Some of these we're having to take earlier than most, because he's taking the courses earlier than most kids do.  Hopefully it will all work out -- because we start taking these tests this year -- and I'm pretty sure we won't have a solid list of colleges for at least 2 years.  He's reaching for the stars at the moment, but we *do* need to allow for (a) his interests to change and (b) identifying good back-up schools.  There is only so much we can plan at this point.  If there is a school he really wants to attend, and they want a subject test for a course he took 2 years prior, well...I guess he'll have to study and take it.  

 

And no...I do not want to add up all of those fees!  And yes, a lot of this testing does feel unnecessary.  

[LisaKinVA]

Sounds like you have it all mapped out. I thought you were talking a few APs v. one or two. :) He'll likely be a very attractive college admissions candidate!

 

No...it was more about taking the Bio AP exam in lieu of the Bio Subject Test, or did he need to take the Math 2 exam if he was going to take the Calc BC exam... But, since schools that require the subject tests often do not accept a higher-level AP exam as a substitute, I wasn't going to have him take the AP Bio (since he doesn't particularly care for Biology/Env. Science track) -- I figured the Subject exam for Biology would work...especially with the other upper level sciences he'll be taking.  Math 2...not a biggie...fine.  But, that would be no substitute for Calc BC.  I wasn't planning on having him take the English APs (haven't heard great things about them, but I did see there will be a new AP Research given, which I *may* have him do, since he's supposed to do a Senior Thesis anyhow), so having him take the Subject exam for Literature makes sense.

 

I hope he's a good candidate.  But, time will tell.  He's definitely a diamond in the rough.  Lots of potential.  We'll see what he does with it!