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First Form Latin or Henle 1 for 9th grader?


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#1 hmschoolmom22

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:50 PM

she took Classical Conversations Challenge A last year and completed "Latin's Not So Tough" books 3 and 4. She finished out her Latin year strong and did well on her end of year test.

I would like to continue Latin with her and she in entering high school this year. Would you recommend First Form Latin or Henle 1 for her? I recently received the Memoria Press catalog and they both look like great courses/curriculum and I was hoping someone here might have an opinion of which is better for the student who doesn't enjoy Latin and for a mom who doesn't always understand it. :D

#2 In The Great White North

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:54 PM

Henle.

It's the high school text, has clear explanations and First Form isn't any more "fun."

Dd did Henle I on her own in 9th (MODG 1-year plan) and it is do-able.

However, if you want "fun," look at Cambridge Latin or Lingua Latina, both of which have a lot of bells and whistles available.

Edited by In The Great White North, 26 August 2010 - 10:14 AM.


#3 KellyW

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 08:17 PM

I'm curious about this as well. Dd just finished Christiana Latina II. It doesn't seem that Henle is a popular choice. After researching Wheelock's it looked too advanced for mom to teach without any formal latin training and too difficult for dd to do on her own.

Has anyone used Henle past the first year? What was your experience with teaching it?

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#4 hmschoolmom22

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 08:56 AM

hoping to get more input

#5 Excelsior! Academy

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:15 PM

The four Form books are supposed to replace Henle I. I would say just go with the Henle program, unless the first book is all you plan to do. We are doing Second Form beta right now, and if I'd known I would have just started with Henle. We are switching to Henle after this year, and I hope my dd will be able to get through all of the Henle books by graduation.

#6 Carrie12345

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:19 PM

I can't compare since I've never had my hands on Henle. Ds finished FF and is starting SF on Monday. He happens to love the program. I happen to love handing it to him and then using the answer key. It's that easy for him to follow independently. Which is very important, because I "dropped out" after lesson 4 in FF. :tongue_smilie:

#7 In The Great White North

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:44 PM

There's an Answer Key for Henle I too. (I don't know about Henle II, III or IV - we didn't use them.)

#8 Heather in VA

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 07:29 PM

Honestly - neither. First Form is definitely not high school material. We used Henle for a year in jr. high and when it came time to do high school level Latin, we ended up having to do Latin 1 over (we are using Wheelocks) because Henle just wasn't challenging enough nor did it have enough translation.

Heather

#9 dmrranch

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:38 PM

I also want to hear what others have to say. When I contacted Memoria Press they recommend FF 1 for my dd14 and to combine with my dd10. They also said that doing all 4 forms would give her 4 high school credits. When I asked about Henle, they said I could use it alongside the forms but seemed to feel very strongly about HER starting with FF1. (She has only had LCI because we did not know about the forms last year and went along with what our coop offered for jr high. My dd10 hasn't had any latin but I have LCI from last year.) So, I know my situation is a little different.

The four Form books are supposed to replace Henle I. I would say just go with the Henle program, unless the first book is all you plan to do. We are doing Second Form beta right now, and if I'd known I would have just started with Henle. We are switching to Henle after this year, and I hope my dd will be able to get through all of the Henle books by graduation.


What did you not like about First Form? I thought I was told that eventually LCII would be phased out and the forms were there to help bridge the gap for middle school. However, it alledgedly is also a solid hs course of work:confused:

Honestly - neither. First Form is definitely not high school material. We used Henle for a year in jr. high and when it came time to do high school level Latin, we ended up having to do Latin 1 over (we are using Wheelocks) because Henle just wasn't challenging enough nor did it have enough translation.

Heather


So, I am also anxious to see what you guys say that have been using Memoria Press products. According to this Classical Teacher magazine that MP puts out, the sequence now looks like this: (I am including their notes)

2nd grade *Prima (beginning program for grades 2-4)
3rd *LCI (beginning program for grades 3-6)
4th *FF (beginning program for grades 4-12)
5th SForm
6th 3rd Form
7th 4th Form, Lingua Angelica, Gospel of Mark
8th *Henle Latin 1 and II (syntax and Caesar prep.) (beginning program for grades 8+)
9th Henle II (Caesar)
10th Henle III (Cicero) or Ovid
11th Henle IV or AP Virgil
12th Christian & Medieval Latin

* Denotes entry level course. The magazine also goes on to say "If you are intimidated about teaching Latin, do not hesitate to choose a lower-level course than the one recommended. And for students in grades 8 and up, we recommend at least one year of the First Form Series before beginning Henle Latin I."

also, "Generally speaking, if your student has already used another Latin program, you may want to bump up to the higher beginning program recommended for your age student. For instance, if you have a 5th grader with some Latin background, you will want to choose FF rather than LCI."

So, I hope someone can help us sort out these choices :001_smile:

Edited by dmrranch, 25 August 2010 - 11:43 PM.


#10 Ester Maria

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:08 AM

Honestly - neither. First Form is definitely not high school material. We used Henle for a year in jr. high and when it came time to do high school level Latin, we ended up having to do Latin 1 over (we are using Wheelocks) because Henle just wasn't challenging enough nor did it have enough translation.

Exactly.
I always lobby for Wheelock's (not that you all didn't know that :D) when it comes to this age group.

#11 In The Great White North

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 10:14 AM

Henle was designed for high school - Wheelock's was designed for college.

In the normal course of language study (US), one year of a high school language will not equate to one year of college. For example, if you took one year of German in high school, you would be put into German I in college. Two years of German in high school might get you into German II in college, but not necessarily. The AP test, which usually qualifies as one year (sometimes two years) of college credit, requires 4 or 5 years of high school language study. So I would not expect one year of Henle to equate to one year of Wheelock.

If your dc (or you) can handle Wheelock, of course, they will get further than with Henle.

If you do all four Henle's, you will definitely not have to use Wheelock.

If you do all four First Forms, you will not have to do Henle I.

However, First Form, Henle and Wheelock all start at the beginning, so you can choose whichever you want, as long as you are able to set an appropriate pace for your dc.

Really, it depends on how much you, as the teacher, want to do, how fast you want to go and how far you want to get.

Edited by In The Great White North, 26 August 2010 - 10:16 AM.


#12 Excelsior! Academy

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 01:58 PM


What did you not like about First Form? I thought I was told that eventually LCII would be phased out and the forms were there to help bridge the gap for middle school. However, it alledgedly is also a solid hs course of work:confused:



We never used First Form. I did LCI and II with my dds. At the convention I got Second Form and the bridge unit for First Form. They didn't say anything to me about LCII being phased out, but did mention the Form books replacing Henle I. With my no Latin background it seems like high school level to me. Maybe some Latin experts on here can answer this better. :bigear:

#13 dmrranch

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:13 PM

Okay, so now I remember exactly why I think we are going with First Form w/ 9th grade dd that just turned 14.

First, it was what they suggested for us. My dd14 had done LC1 and I do not know latin. (she took it with a co-op). I am going to teach this to her myself. The suggestions I received were to do FF in the first semester and then go on to SF. Tanya, from MP, said that SF has lots of sentence translation in it and there is a syllabus to complete their Latin music/prayers translation book if I want to add that. When I hit TF the next year, MP will have a supplemental syllabus to go along with it that lets you work in the Henle text alongside your TF work if you wish to do it. And I quote, "So, they give you plenty of work to do if you are an ambitious Latin student. A high schooler can get a lot done with our Forms program without sacrificing mastery of the grammar."

In someone else's post she said that FF was written specifically for beginning older Latin students. She also said that FF basically covers in 1 year what LCI and LC II take 2 years to do.

And another post..."our Forms curricula is designed differently than Henle. We spend a lot more time on the grammar, and the students have more exercises to do in order to reinforce what they are learning. We feel this is the best way to achieve mastery of the material. FF should take 3-5 hrs/wk".

Another..."Our Forms have specific translation sentences designed for practice of the grammar forms the students know.."

And..."We still feel Henle is the best Latin grammar course out there for high schoolers wanting to run through the Latin grammar at a quicker pace, but we advice that they have the help of our online classes or a tutor in order to successfully master it....There are no teacher guides or dvds helping you along the way as there are in the Forms."


FWIW...more to chew on...Deborah :001_smile:

#14 Teachin'Mine

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 07:27 AM

Is Henle Latin II the second half of the Latin I book, or does the whole Latin I book count as Latin I and Latin II is a separate book?

Our lesson plans do the first half of Latin I as Latin I, and the second half will be done as Latin II in 10th. With this scheduling, should we be able to finish through Henle Latin IV in high school?

I've even read through the Memoria Press website and can't seem to find the answer to this. :001_huh:

#15 In The Great White North

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 07:31 AM

MODG has a two year plan and a one year plan in their Henle I syllabus.

#16 Teachin'Mine

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 05:17 PM

MODG has a two year plan and a one year plan in their Henle I syllabus.


My daughter is on a two year plan. I'm just looking ahead, and wondering how she'll be be ready to take the AP Latin at the end of 11th. With her current plan, it will take 9th and 10th to complete Latin I and then Latin II would be done in 11th. I don't think she'd even be ready for the SAT II in Latin by then. :001_huh: I wish we had started in 7th or 8th, but we can't change that now.

If you knew that you had to be ready for the SAT II and/or AP Latin by the end of 11th, and you were doing Henle, how would you do it? Dd says that the Latin does seem to be progressing slowly, per the lesson plans, but she doesn't think going twice as fast would be a good idea since this is all new to her, and there's a lot to memorize.

Edited by Teachin'Mine, 27 August 2010 - 05:19 PM.


#17 Michelle in MO

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 06:44 PM

Henle was designed for high school - Wheelock's was designed for college.

In the normal course of language study (US), one year of a high school language will not equate to one year of college. For example, if you took one year of German in high school, you would be put into German I in college. Two years of German in high school might get you into German II in college, but not necessarily. The AP test, which usually qualifies as one year (sometimes two years) of college credit, requires 4 or 5 years of high school language study. So I would not expect one year of Henle to equate to one year of Wheelock.

If your dc (or you) can handle Wheelock, of course, they will get further than with Henle.

If you do all four Henle's, you will definitely not have to use Wheelock.

If you do all four First Forms, you will not have to do Henle I.

However, First Form, Henle and Wheelock all start at the beginning, so you can choose whichever you want, as long as you are able to set an appropriate pace for your dc.

Really, it depends on how much you, as the teacher, want to do, how fast you want to go and how far you want to get.



Ditto to many of these thoughts. Henle was designed for high school; Wheelock's for college. Wheelock's covers far more grammar, however, than Henle, but it would not be my first recommendation for most high school kids. For the most part, I like Wheelock's--lived it, breathed it, but I think Henle is honestly more do-able for most high school kids and for their parents.

There was another conversation I was engaged in (somewhere else) in which we were discussing First Form v. Henle. The conclusion seemed to be that First Form was a simplified version of Henle, so of the two, I would go with Henle.

#18 Elizabeth in WA

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 06:50 PM

If you knew that you had to be ready for the SAT II and/or AP Latin by the end of 11th, and you were doing Henle, how would you do it? Dd says that the Latin does seem to be progressing slowly, per the lesson plans, but she doesn't think going twice as fast would be a good idea since this is all new to her, and there's a lot to memorize.


Thats what I am looking at with my just starting 9th grader. My solution is to use Wheelock's and plan to finish such that we have with AT LEAST 12 weeks at the end of the second year to just translate authentic Latin literature. For us that means two chapters every three weeks throughout the school year - or about halfway between a high school and a college pace. Also, we will not really take summer off even if we just review then, because forgetting over the summer would set us too far back. I took four years of high school Latin myself, so while I have forgotten a lot, I am confident I can pick it back up fast enough to stay ahead of the kids. And, there is a ton of Wheelock help material available, some of it for free on the web.

Edited by Elizabeth in WA, 27 August 2010 - 07:50 PM.


#19 Heather in VA

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 06:52 PM

Here's my problem with what I hear coming from MP. They are encouraging people to give 1 year high school credit for First Form Latin by saying it's high school level. To me First Form is 'non childish' enough to be used with a high schooler but that is very different from being equivalent to 1 high school credit. It takes 4 years of First Form to cover Latin grammar. In high school you are expected only to take 2 years to cover this. So First Form would be 2 years of credit that takes 4 years to do but not 4 years of high school credit.

Heather

#20 Ester Maria

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 07:57 PM

Despite the fact Wheelock is originally designed for college, I see absolutely no reason why it would not be used in high school, and even with advanced middle school students (I combined resources for my daughters, but they both responded well to Wheelock too... in early middle school). It's written in a very clear, straightforward fashion, on a reading level that any high school student should be able to understand, and it's even accompanied by a whole lot of materials if you need extras. I also find it wonderful that it's text-only, without any kind of silly activities or visual distractions; in short, it has all a good textbook should have. It introduces grammatical content in a reasonable, logical order, students get the ability to operate with the language right after first two lessons, it has translation exercises both ways, and even commentary on difficult ones, and from about page 300 original texts (keep in mind that the first 50 pages are basically introduction, so it effectively squeezes the most important things in only 250 pages).

I totally don't get what's difficult about Wheelock. Yes, it's plain and probably requires higher attention span than most curricula, but it's comprehensive and gives very good fundamentals in a single book. A book that can be finished in 2-3 years with a high school student (and even less with a college student), and quite stress-free so. It doesn't distract you, doesn't drag the content endlessly, introduces things FULLY once it introduces them, mah, PERFECT compared to other options. The best thing out there on the anglophone market, seriously. And definitely suitable for high school students, in fact, it's less of a challenging text than your average science textbooks.

#21 Tress

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 01:13 AM

Here's my problem with what I hear coming from MP. They are encouraging people to give 1 year high school credit for First Form Latin by saying it's high school level. To me First Form is 'non childish' enough to be used with a high schooler but that is very different from being equivalent to 1 high school credit. It takes 4 years of First Form to cover Latin grammar. In high school you are expected only to take 2 years to cover this. So First Form would be 2 years of credit that takes 4 years to do but not 4 years of high school credit.

Heather


You are right, their way of assigning credits is very strange! They used to say that Unit 1-7 of Henle First Year was one credit, Unit 8-14 was a second credit. I have both Henle First Year and First Form here, and First Form roughly covers 1/2 of Unit 1-7. Second Form will cover the remaining half of Unit 1-7, Third and Fourth Form together will cover Unit 8-14. They also say that First-Second Form has less translation than Henle. So how on earth they can assign 1 credit for each form, is beyond me :confused:.

I think MP makes nice materials, but they are constantly *lowering* the level out of fear (their fear or maybe perceived fear by their customers) that Latin is too hard.

#22 Zee

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 08:16 AM

I'm glad you posted this. Ds is in 8th and we're using FF. We're on Lesson 6 and I love it. I'm glad to see where things are headed. Thanks for sharing this. :)

#23 Carrie12345

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 08:31 AM

You are right, their way of assigning credits is very strange! They used to say that Unit 1-7 of Henle First Year was one credit, Unit 8-14 was a second credit. I have both Henle First Year and First Form here, and First Form roughly covers 1/2 of Unit 1-7. Second Form will cover the remaining half of Unit 1-7, Third and Fourth Form together will cover Unit 8-14. They also say that First-Second Form has less translation than Henle. So how on earth they can assign 1 credit for each form, is beyond me :confused:.

I think MP makes nice materials, but they are constantly *lowering* the level out of fear (their fear or maybe perceived fear by their customers) that Latin is too hard.


I haven't had to seriously contemplate this yet (ds did FF for 6th grade and is doing SF as a 7th/8th grader), but I do think I'll be giving full credits for Third and Fourth Forms, based on the amount of time ds spends working on them.
They're by no means HONORS credit-worthy, but neither is "basic math", in comparison to Algebra 2, yet a year of Mathematics is a full credit, despite the content difference.

If someone is doing FF and it isn't challenging the student at all, or they're able to fly through the program in 1/3 of the year, no, it probably shouldn't merit a full credit any more than Algebra 1 should for a Calc-level student. If it's a genuine effort in the study of Latin (or math, or science, or Home Ec), why not?

#24 In The Great White North

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 09:42 AM

I haven't had to seriously contemplate this yet (ds did FF for 6th grade and is doing SF as a 7th/8th grader), but I do think I'll be giving full credits for Third and Fourth Forms, based on the amount of time ds spends working on them.
They're by no means HONORS credit-worthy, but neither is "basic math", in comparison to Algebra 2, yet a year of Mathematics is a full credit, despite the content difference.

If someone is doing FF and it isn't challenging the student at all, or they're able to fly through the program in 1/3 of the year, no, it probably shouldn't merit a full credit any more than Algebra 1 should for a Calc-level student. If it's a genuine effort in the study of Latin (or math, or science, or Home Ec), why not?


Because there is an expected amount of grammar and vocab that is normally covered in a year of high school foreign language study. Henle I was originally (and still is by some) a one year freshman high school course. Giving a year's worth of credit to 1/4 of it is like doing the first 3 chapters of the biology books and claiming to have done high school biology.

#25 Carrie12345

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 11:00 AM

Because there is an expected amount of grammar and vocab that is normally covered in a year of high school foreign language study. Henle I was originally (and still is by some) a one year freshman high school course. Giving a year's worth of credit to 1/4 of it is like doing the first 3 chapters of the biology books and claiming to have done high school biology.


I don't have Henle, so I trust in everyone else's comparison of those two particular programs.
But I did take both German I and French I in high school (15 years ago, to be fair). FF undoubtedly covers more grammar than either of my courses did, and at least as much vocab.

The unit objectives listed for 1st year languages on my school district's website sound rather lame compared to FF (imo, of course). I may have to think about getting my hands on their texts before I make any actual decisions though.

#26 Teachin'Mine

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 11:35 AM

Thats what I am looking at with my just starting 9th grader. My solution is to use Wheelock's and plan to finish such that we have with AT LEAST 12 weeks at the end of the second year to just translate authentic Latin literature. For us that means two chapters every three weeks throughout the school year - or about halfway between a high school and a college pace. Also, we will not really take summer off even if we just review then, because forgetting over the summer would set us too far back. I took four years of high school Latin myself, so while I have forgotten a lot, I am confident I can pick it back up fast enough to stay ahead of the kids. And, there is a ton of Wheelock help material available, some of it for free on the web.


Elizabeth thank you for sharing what you're going to do. You've got that as an option because you've had a good Latin background. Unfortunately, I have only one year of high school Latin, and I'm not involved in teaching the Henle to her at all. I like the idea of doing Latin year round, but I'm not so sure of how my dd would feel about that. She really likes her summer break, and it was so short this year. She's hoping that by starting earlier she'll have a longer break next year, and I can almost guarantee that Latin isn't a part of her plan. :lol:

I did even more searching about Henle last night, and I found that the last part of Henle I is repeated in the first part of Henle 2. So - I'm thinking there might be some way to skip some that way? Honestly, I don't know how her school schedules Latin 2, so I may need to find out. Maybe she'd be able to complete Henle 2 in 10th, and that would be better. But it sounds like she'd still be missing some of the translation work that she'll need for the tests. She may need to do an online class or something for that. I wish I had realized all of this last year. :tongue_smilie:

#27 Tress

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 12:59 PM

I did even more searching about Henle last night, and I found that the last part of Henle I is repeated in the first part of Henle 2.


I really should not make big statements about assigning credit, I'm not American, I do not have to assign credits (we have state exams :glare:) and your way of dividing things into grades and then suddenly call things 'sophomore' etc makes my head spin :D, BUT.... I think this (above) is part of the confusion.

The schools who used to use Henle in the '50s did Unit 1-7 in one year (so one credit, right?), but for fast classes there was more material in the book, Unit 8-14. It was not necessary to do Unit 8-14, because that grammar is also in the second book, Henle Second Year. Although it is presented faster in book two, so nowadays a lot of people use Unit 8-14 of book one and then speed through book two.

Then we got all sorts of people making study guides, dividing Henle First Year into different parts and calling that Henle year 1,2 etc. MP has a study guide which only covers Unit 1+2 in a year, the next year Unit 3-5. (Obviously this is for younger students.) MODG has different guides and different divisions.

So if someone says that they have done 'one year' of Henle, that could mean Unit1+2, Unit 1-7 or even Unit 1-14.

After all of this, I will let you Americans assign the credits :lol:. I just wanted to say that assigning one credit for each Form is not consistent with the way MP used to assign credits, but who am I to say it is wrong.

#28 Teachin'Mine

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 10:10 PM

Tress thank you for your post! I think you've summed up the problem very nicely - - - it's very confusing!!! :lol:

Your explanation of Henle's Latin 1 and 2 makes sense. In looking at what her school does, it looks like Latin 2 will be completed in her second year of Latin - yeah! I guess she'll still need to do some extra translation work when she's in Latin 3 to get what she'll need for the tests.

#29 Heather in VA

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 03:57 PM

. If it's a genuine effort in the study of Latin (or math, or science, or Home Ec), why not?


I think this is the approach MP is starting to take and to me is seriously undermines their credibility as a high school curriculum supplier. Cheryl Lowe recently responded this way to the First Form for a high school credit question.


Today one year of Latin, or one year of Algebra, for that matter, means nothing to a college, because schools, public and private give credits for attendance more than content. A homeschooler who completes all of the First Form Series could count that as four years of high school credit and probably be well above the national average.

This is not only incorrect but reckless. My daughter has friends taking Latin in public schools. There are expectations of how much Latin should be done each year. Of course every school or class doesn't cover exactly what another class does but that doesn't mean we can just say 'well we did some and learned it and because we did it at home we are definitely better off than most'. If you want to pursue Latin as an exercise - great. If you want to call it your foreign language and give credits called Latin I, Latin II etc - there are expectations and the First Form series doesn't meet them and more than doing a couple of chapters of a Calculus book and saying 'we tried and it was hard so we should get Calculus I' credit.

Heather

#30 dmrranch

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 06:13 PM

Some really believe you can/should go straight to Wheelock's Latin for 9th High School. Some like Henle.

I have no personal experience with Latin other than my daughter taking LC1 at a co-op. I will be learning with her this year. For my 9th grade 14 dd who has had LC I, I was given advice by MP to do FF in one semester and then go to SF. Once I was in TF by next year, MP is going to have a syllabus where you can work alongside TF and FF with Henle to pull in more translation. Supposedly you get more Latin Grammar this way as compared to just doing Henle all the way through with Henle Grammar. This would provide more depth to the Forms. Plus, everything I mentioned above earlier in this thread.

For those that have used Henle...
So, would that work??? Is it best???? Or, just go straight to Henle 1??? Also, MP or MODG (I think that is right?).

Edited by dmrranch, 29 August 2010 - 10:32 PM.


#31 LatinTea

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 10:05 PM

I think MP makes nice materials, but they are constantly *lowering* the level out of fear (their fear or maybe perceived fear by their customers) that Latin is too hard.


You mean that Latin is NOT too hard? Ah, since I am a Latin drop-out, I must politely disagree. :) It IS too hard and I'm not gonna do it any more (is there a stamping foot smilie?).

We are studying French this year instead. I can deal with talking about croissants and cafes, but if I hear one more sentence about Caesar's army taking hostages, I'll scream! Oh dear, French means....Gauls....oh no!! :D

#32 In The Great White North

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 09:33 AM

So, would that work??? Is it best???? Or, just go straight to Henle 1??? Also, MP or MODG (I think that is right?).


Go straight to Henle (or Wheelock). The Study Guides are just schedules. Decide what you want to get done, divide it by the number of weeks you want to have school and start. (Do get the answer key.)

#33 Ester Maria

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 10:51 AM

I think this is the approach MP is starting to take and to me is seriously undermines their credibility as a high school curriculum supplier. [...] There are expectations of how much Latin should be done each year. Of course every school or class doesn't cover exactly what another class does but that doesn't mean we can just say 'well we did some and learned it and because we did it at home we are definitely better off than most'. If you want to pursue Latin as an exercise - great. If you want to call it your foreign language and give credits called Latin I, Latin II etc - there are expectations and the First Form series doesn't meet them and more than doing a couple of chapters of a Calculus book and saying 'we tried and it was hard so we should get Calculus I' credit.

Thank you for this post, I second all of it.

Some really believe you can/should go straight to Wheelock's Latin for 9th High School. Some like Henle.

I would like to point to one "politically incorrect" detail, which I've been refraining myself from pointing to, but... Not all advices carry the same weight. Some are being given by people with a strong Latin background who know what they're talking about since they know Latin and thus can truly compare the courses and the way material is introduced and dealt with, while some are being given by people who, admittedly, know close to no Latin, and most are being given by people who are on all stages in between these two. And it might be only my distorted perception, but I notice an inclination among those with better Latin background to suggest and work by "stronger" textbooks, on a high school level at least.

I agree that the pace suggested by MP is a ridiculously slow one (from a grammatical point of view; double as less time is needed to master it all). I commented on that one before on these boards, but meanwhile they seem to have taken that particular information from their website, or I'm unable to find it now. I was pretty much vaccinated against their materials upon listening to Cheryl Lowe.

Edited by Ester Maria, 30 August 2010 - 11:00 AM.


#34 Gratia271

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 12:00 PM

I think this is the approach MP is starting to take and to me is seriously undermines their credibility as a high school curriculum supplier. Cheryl Lowe recently responded this way to the First Form for a high school credit question.


Today one year of Latin, or one year of Algebra, for that matter, means nothing to a college, because schools, public and private give credits for attendance more than content. A homeschooler who completes all of the First Form Series could count that as four years of high school credit and probably be well above the national average.

Heather


I agree that the remarks by MP are reckless in terms of standards. Notwithstanding the approach of others, there needs to be objective standards by which we abide. Their standards have become ridiculously low (for the recommended ages), and their explanation is flawed.

In any case, being someone who knows Latin, I can say that I have used Henle with my daughter. She completed Henle I (the book, not someone's syllabus broken down further) during 4th grade. She studied Wheelock more or less independently last year and has excelled. My younger two have followed the Form Series which they began at age 7. It simplifies it for them, and I supplement their work with translation exercises. I have no problem with MP's form series for 7 and 8 year olds. I would never call it HS material, nor would I give it to a middle schooler. It works for us at the elementary level with supplemental translation work. Everyone is different with different goals and objectives. Some parents introduce Latin later with higher level materials. I chose to begin younger with easier materials. It is really a function of what you are trying to accomplish, but deeming the work to be on a higher level than it is is inappropriate.

#35 Heather in VA

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 12:33 PM

Gratia,

Do you mind my asking what you plan to do for foreign language credit in high school? I do believe that Wheelocks (the full book) is 2 years of high school credit but I worry about doing it at younger ages with the intent of high school credit. In our area it is common to accept work from 7th grade up on a transcript but not really below that. Also, unlike much of what I hear on this board, the colleges and high schools in this area expect 3 - 4 (mostly 4/same language) credits of foreign language on the transcript so while taking the AP level Latin in the 9th grade or earlier could be doable for students, it could leave me hanging without the necessary graduations requirements.

Do you plan to do a different language in high school or continue with Latin, just using different materials?

Thanks
Heather

#36 Gratia271

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 07:37 PM

Gratia,

Do you mind my asking what you plan to do for foreign language credit in high school? I do believe that Wheelocks (the full book) is 2 years of high school credit but I worry about doing it at younger ages with the intent of high school credit. In our area it is common to accept work from 7th grade up on a transcript but not really below that. Also, unlike much of what I hear on this board, the colleges and high schools in this area expect 3 - 4 (mostly 4/same language) credits of foreign language on the transcript so while taking the AP level Latin in the 9th grade or earlier could be doable for students, it could leave me hanging without the necessary graduations requirements.

Do you plan to do a different language in high school or continue with Latin, just using different materials?

Thanks
Heather


In terms of Latin, my conjecture is that they will do university work during HS years which will address the transcript issue. My oldest dd just began Athenaze this year and will move forward with that for the duration. She also studies French, though not with the same rigor as the other two languages. I understand the predicament of doing this work at younger ages in terms of HS credit. I began their studies younger, and they advanced much more rapidly than I had anticipated. In any case, by the time eldest reaches HS, she should have significant facility with Latin, Greek, and French and can choose another language or do university work. We will not discontinue work in any of the languages, but the type of work changes, of course.


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