Compare Jacobs, Lial, foerster, TT math

[alwaysinhiskeeping]

Can someone compare Jacobs, Lial, Foerster, and Teaching Textbook math curriculum? Thanks.

[Sunshine State Sue]

I assume you are asking about Algebra 1.

 

Is there any way that you can find these at your library or through inter-library loan? It helped me immensely to look through the books themselves.

 

My personal favorite is Foerster's. You may read my review in this thread.

 

Many people say that Jacob's is wordy - some like that and some don't. I looked at Lial's from the library and it actually reminded me of what I used in high school. It gets good reviews. I get the impression that TT is not very rigorous. It seems that Chalkdust is the best choice if a DVD is needed.

 

Here are several threads that might be helpful:

 

Foerster Alg. 1 or Lials

 

Sharon in MD and others - about Jacob's Algebra, Foerster's Algebra

 

Foerster's vs. Jacobs for Algebra I - what's the difference? nt

 

Jacob's VS Foerster's for Algebra I?

Foerster or Jacobs or Dolciani for Algebra 1??

[AnitaMS]

I really like Beginning Algebra by Lial. I've taught my own kids, and small classes of homeschoolers with this book as well. It has good explanations, and lots and lots of exercises.

[AngieW in Texas]

Jacobs is the only one I've used from your list. All of my kids have looked at the video samples from TT and didn't like them.

 

My oldest looked at Foerster for precalculus, but thought it was unnecessarily complicated (and I agreed).

 

The program I like best for Algebra I and Algebra II is Kinetic Books, but Jacobs is also very good.

[amtmcm]

I can't compare rigor, but I can compare look and feel. I own Lial's, Foerster and TT.

 

Lial's is softcover, perfect bound so it opens and lays flat. It is very easy to find used on Amazon, along with the solutions book. However, the print is very small (as is Chalkdust) and densely packed. There is not much white space and appears very busy on the page. My eyes never find a place to rest. This would be a deal breaker for me and my younger DD.

 

Foerster Algebra 1 is beautifully laid out and very straightforward. I've read through the first few chapters and noodled the problems around for fun. They are excellent! This would be MY personal first choice for teaching or learning algebra. The pages are clean, with just enough white space, and the lessons are linear. I'm very impressed with the word problems and I will use them to supplement TT for DD13. I will most likely use this book for DD10 since she is also a linear thinker like me and she does not like TT.

 

TT Algebra 1 has the advantage of providing lessons and ALL solutions on CD. The lectures and explanations are excellent! One complaint I've read and agree with is the choice of some vocabulary; specifically, "freeing the trapped X." I spoke to DD13 about the preferred terminology and made it a non-issue. The text is easy to follow with plenty of white space. But there's really not enough room to complete problems in the book.

 

A couple of considerations about TT. IMO, it lays an excellent foundation, especially for a non-mathy student, but it is "behind" other typical math texts. For instance, Quadratic Equations are covered in most Algebra 1 texts, but TT doesn't cover this topic until Alg 2. We are going to complete TT Algebra 2 at least through Quadratic Equations and call that Algebra 1 on DD13's transcript. For us, TT Pre-Calc will probably be Algebra 2 on her transcript, unless we switch to Foerster's Alg 2 & Trig after TT Geometry.

 

DD13 is about 2/3 through TT Algebra 1 and it's going very well for her. She is learning and understands the material and there is a good amount of practice for her (not too much, not too little). The lessons are mastery (stays one topic until it's entirely covered) and the problem sets are spiral so there is continual review. This is a nice balance. And if DD needs any extra help, she pops in the CD and watches the complete, detailed explanation. This is great for us, because me teaching her math is like an accountant teaching math to an artist. I'm very linear and she is global-spatial so we don't synch up well on math. Literature, history & science is fine, but me working with her on math is not pretty.

 

Hope this helps!

[alwaysinhiskeeping]

Thank you for the links to the posts. I sounds like Lial, Jacobs and Foerster are very good curriculum. If I were to use any one of them, for example, Jacobs for 4 years of math, what should my plan be? How about Foerster and Lial?

Does the schedule go according to chapter or lesson (ex. 1 chapter per week vs. 5 lessons per week)?

[Jann in TX]

You mentioned font size---in the developmental paperback series that I recommend (Lial has 2 series at this level) the font size is nice! There is plenty of 'white space' on the page and the pages are NOT at all cluttered.

 

There is a major difference in the format of the other series... The one I use and teach from has Introductory Algebra for Algebra 1--Intermediate for Algebra 2...this series is found mostly in a paperback format--but on occasion you can find it hard bound (font will be slightly smaller).

 

The 'other' series has Beginning Algebra for Algebra I. It was produced mainly in hardbound--BUT it is found in paperback too! (how is that for being confusing!).

 

Both series have the same great teaching and examples-- the developmental series has practice problems in the side bar that I really like! I also like the sequencing of the concepts better in the Introductory Algebra...

[amtmcm]

You mentioned font size---in the developmental paperback series that I recommend (Lial has 2 series at this level) the font size is nice! There is plenty of 'white space' on the page and the pages are NOT at all cluttered.

 

Good to know!

 

Thank you for the links to the posts. I sounds like Lial, Jacobs and Foerster are very good curriculum. If I were to use any one of them, for example, Jacobs for 4 years of math, what should my plan be? How about Foerster and Lial?

Does the schedule go according to chapter or lesson (ex. 1 chapter per week vs. 5 lessons per week)?

 

Jacobs only has Algebra 1 and Geometry. He recommends using Foerster for Algebra 2 & Trig.

 

I don't believe Foerster has a Geometry book. So you'd need need to use a combination of these texts:

 

Algebra 1 - either Jacobs or Foerster

Geometry - Jacobs

Algebra 2 & Trig - Foerster

 

Jacobs and Foerster both have DVD's available from other publishers:

 

http://www.homeschoolmath.net/reviews/foerster_algebra_1_home_study_companion.php

 

http://shop.askdrcallahan.com/

 

And Jann in Texas teaches classes too :)

http://www.myhomeschoolmathclass.com/index.html

[Tardis Girl]

My oldest looked at Foerster for precalculus, but thought it was unnecessarily complicated (and I agreed).

 

 

Not to get off the topic of the original question, but.... Angie, so what are you guys using for precalc/stats/calc? (I'm sure I've seen this from other threads, but I don't remember!) Thx!

[Jann in TX]

I suggest reading several of the old posts about these programs... here are my thoughts from my personal experience (as a parent and a Math teacher) with these programs...

 

Jacobs-- this program has Algebra 1 and Geometry. Jacobs Algebra 1 covers all of the traditional Algebra 1 concepts and a tiny bit more. The methods and wording is a bit on the 'unique' side (non-traditional) and sometimes he will introduce a concept in a confusing way--but within a lesson or two the students will 'see' where he was heading... I suggest using a video component with this program. This is a hit or miss program. If your student THINKS like Jacobs then it will be a good fit--but there are many cases of it 'not working' for some.

 

Lial--this is one of my favorite programs to teach from. This text is 'different' in that the complete teaching lesson is included in the student text. The lessons were written on block scheduling--allow 2 days per lesson--with 20-30 problems being assigned each day (odds only). These are community college texts--but they are totally on a HIGH SCHOOL level (remedial). Being a college text, older editions are easily found--so the program is very inexpensive. It is very possible for this program to be worked independently by a student-- a video component does exist--but it is not usually necessary. I like the layout and the progression. I've used this program all levels of students--from below average to honors.

 

Foerster--this program is best used with above average students. There is a lot of focus given to word problems and it is best if a video component is used as the text was designed to be 'taught' in a classroom situation. Foerster and Jacobs are friends and share a similar philosophy. Jacobs recommends students use Foerster for Algebra 2 following his program. Like the Jacobs texts--if your student 'thinks' like the author then it will be a great program--if not, it can be frustrating.

 

Teaching Textbooks--this is a very popular program. It is either a love or hate relationship. TT is a truly independently published program and their levels are not divided traditionally--even though they are NAMED traditionally. Their Algebra 1 program is not that far below a traditional Algebra 1 program, but their Algebra 2 program covers about half of what a traditional (public school--college expected) Algebra 2 program will cover. The depth is also on the lighter side. TT will help some students gain confidence in Math--but it is lacking challenge/rigor for many. The video component is very necessary. TT is best for below average to low average (non mathy or those not needing college maths) students--noting that some GIFTED Math students may be able to take the simple level of problems taught and expand it on their own.

[amtmcm]

TT is best for below average to low average (non mathy or those not needing college maths) students--noting that some GIFTED Math students may be able to take the simple level of problems taught and expand it on their own.

 

Or maybe for a younger student who is ahead in math. My DD started Algebra 1 in 7th grade and will finish it two months into 8th grade. She will complete TT Algebra 2 in 8th grade. This is not very advanced, but a little ahead, especially since she is not mathy.

[creekland]

Teaching Textbooks-- The video component is very necessary.

 

Not really. This depends on the student and the parent. Having had three boys use their books at this point, 2 absolutely never watched any of the videos since the book is essentially the same and they got bored with the video. One is mathy, but lazy (to be honest). The other is not mathy at all, but is now picking up Algebra skills very successfully. The third (my highest achiever, gifted, and naturally hard worker in ANY subject) watched every single video and appreciated them immensely. I'm not convinced he needed them, but he wanted them.

 

And with regards to the parent... how well can you correct their mistakes? Since I'm a math person myself, we absolutely never used any of their solution CD's. We went over mistakes together. If the parent doesn't understand the math, then the solutions CD's ARE absolutely necessary. The company is also superb at answering e-mails. We had one due to a typo in Pre-Calc...

[AngieW in Texas]

My oldest used

Jacobs Algebra

Jacobs Geometry

Kinetic Books Algebra II

Larson's Precalculus (the same used by Chalkdust)

She will start Statistics at the cc in the fall.

 

My middle used

Kinetic Books Algebra I and half of Jacobs Algebra (started off with both programs and then dropped Jacobs)

Jacobs Geometry

Kinetic Books Algebra II - current level

 

I am planning to buy Lial's Precalculus to have on hand for when the explanations in Larson's are confusing. I used to know all of this math, but that was a long time ago. I had to fumble around for explanations several times with my dd in Larson's. We bought the cheaper dvds on amazon, but many of the video clips were messed up, so we didn't really have a video component. I want Lial's to see if it is easier to work from. I don't know which program I will use for my middle dd.

[Alyce]

I only wish I had heard of it earlier. My son did Alg 1 with MUS and did okay, He did Geometry with TT and complained there wasn't enough review and barely retained anything he learned. We finally found Lial's. He loved it. Found it easy to read and we both liked the practice problems found in the margin of the book. Like Jann my book has plenty of space and has normal font. He did very well with this program and rarely needed my help. We did only the odd problems. The Solutions Guide has the answers worked out step by step so we could go back and see what he did wrong. He like it so much we used their Pre-Caculus book and again he did well. There is no Geometry book for Lial's that I'm aware of but Jann might now better. There are videos that go with the program but we never used the. I can't say anything about the others you mentioned but I can tell you we looked at Chalkdust and my son was overwhelmed and couldn't use it.

[alwaysinhiskeeping]

So these are the possibilities and the order? ()'s are the title of the textbook.

 

Algebra 1-Jacobs (Elementary Algebra) or Foerster (Algebra 1) or Lial (what is it called, "Beginning Algebra"?)

Geometry -Jacobs (Geometry),

Algebra 2-Lial (Intermediate Algebra?), Foerster (Algebra and Trigonometry), Lial (Intermediate Algebra?)

Precalculus -Foerster (Precalculus with Trigonometry), Lial (Precalculus Mathematics?)

Trigonometry

 

Lial has so many editions and titles, which is the right sequence?

 

Thanks a lot!

[Alyce]

I can't speak to the others but the sequence you've listed for Lial's is wrong. Here is the right one:

 

College Algebra (equal Alg 1) I may be wrong about this title

Lial's has no Geometry book so you would have to go to something else.

Intermediate Algebra (equal Alg 2)

A graphical approach to Pre-Calculus (at least that's what Jann recommended 2 years ago to me don't know if she still does though)

[distancia]

I can speak for a few of these.

 

We have TT Algebra 2 for my daughter, age 17 and in need of remedial algebra work. She likes watching the videos because she can just fast forward right through them when she "gets" the point. She sees the steps to the solution done right there in front of her on a yellow legal pad (no face), she listens to the man (with the calm voice) describe what he is doing, and she moves on to the next problem when she understands. She does NOT refer to the textbook as a reference because she becomes impatient with long, wordy explanations (though I myself find the explanations not at all wordy and very clear). There are a ton of problems and just as many step by step solutions on the CDs.

 

I also have Foersters Algebra 1 textbook and it compares pretty much (in content) to TT Algebra 2. Very to-the-point, methodical, and what I would call "businesslike" but very personable.

 

I have Lial's and I find it a wee bit more chatty than Foersters (that's not saying much!) because Lial's is pretty methodical, also. LOTS of reviews on Amazon which might help you a bit more.

 

I looked at Jacobs Algebra 1 and really liked it, but I knew my daughter would not because it veers away from the main subject to explain it from a different perspective. My D wants "just the facts, ma'am"....in a kindly yet non-fluffy tone, and a format that tells you the why and how AS you are doing it and not before--turns her off completely to have to read 2 pages of "why" when she is impatient to get cracking at the problem.

 

Thus, I have been at a total loss so I looked at the BJU Academy high school math textbooks. I wanted to find a secular book and the BJU are based on scripture but I looked anyway and the books have really impressed me! They are mastery approach--but unlike the 4 other books (above) the BJU text, in my opinion, uses creative problem-solving methods, not just WORDS telling you this is how you do it, and why, but pictures/charts/graphs, too...kind of like Singapore Math.

 

Honestly, I have bought a few hundred dollars' worth of texts (a common refrain on these boards!) to find the best approach for my D. I wouldn't be so picky but she is under a deadline of 3 months to go back to middle-school math and fill in the gaps, swing through Algebra 1 again for a firmer foundation, and complete Algebra 2. All this by Thanksgiving, so the right choice of text in our case is crucial.

 

Good luck.

Edited July 22, 2010 by distancia

[alwaysinhiskeeping]

I can't speak to the others but the sequence you've listed for Lial's is wrong. Here is the right one:

 

College Algebra (equal Alg 1) I may be wrong about this title

Lial's has no Geometry book so you would have to go to something else.

Intermediate Algebra (equal Alg 2)

A graphical approach to Pre-Calculus (at least that's what Jann recommended 2 years ago to me don't know if she still does though)

Does Lial (or any other two) provide a schedule to follow? How many lessons are you supposed to do a day? Do you try to finish the entire textbook?

[Jann in TX]

Lial sequence:

 

BCM (Basic College Math) or Pre-Algebra = Pre-Algebra

(I prefer BCM 7th edition))

 

Introductory Algebra = Algebra 1

Beginning Algebra - Algebra 1 (from different series)--I like Intro 8th edition best

 

Intermediate Algebra = Algebra 2

I like Intermediate 8th edition best

 

Pre-Calc = Pre-Calc

College Algebra + Trigonometry = Pre-Calc

 

 

College Algebra comes AFTER Algebra 2 (it is Algebra 3) and may be taken separately if college major does not require Trig.

 

Lial DOES have a Geometry "Geometry for College Students". It is a basic no-frills Geometry text--not as many of these are published so it is close to $100 for the student text.. other programs are more home-school friendly for this level... but it IS a usable program!

 

Calc would of course come after Pre-Calc...

[Jann in TX]

The first chapter is optional in the texts below Pre-Calc.

 

Each lesson was written for block scheduling--so allow 2 days to work the homework problems--assigning the ODDS only.

 

Assign ALL problems in the Chapter Review--allow 2 days

 

Use the tests in the text---allow 1 day

 

Mid chapter summaries can have evens, odds or BOTH assigned--depending on the student. 1-2 days

 

Cumulative reviews should be OPEN BOOK if given--1 day.

 

I've worked it out before--somewhere around 160 days (or less)

 

I use Lial with my online classes--and I used it with my older daughters as well... feel free to e-mail or PM me if you decided to use this program and have any questions.

 

Jann

[Sunshine State Sue]

Does Lial (or any other two) provide a schedule to follow? How many lessons are you supposed to do a day? Do you try to finish the entire textbook?

We used Foerster. The TM has how many days each section should take and which exercises to assign. However, I took 8FillsTheHeart's advice and scheduled 1 section per day (except the first 2 lessons in a chapter could be combined in one day) doing the odds or evens. The sections that were completely word problems, ds would take 3-5 days to do and he did every problem. We completed the entire book Aug-Mar 5days/wk with December off. I'm a bit of a slave driver. ;)

[lil'red]

I sat down yesterday and basically used Jann's schedule for Lial's Introductory Algebra. Some lessons I scheduled 1 day instead of 2 because they were very short (had only 2 pages of lesson with about 15 problems). I did schedule the cumulative reviews. We ended up with about 140 days; doing math 4 days a week, Monday through Thursday for about 35 weeks. We start school the day after Labor day, and will end around the middle of May.

 

We are very excited about using Lial's for math this year and think it will be a good fit for DD. If I had been taught Algebra this way, I may have understood it better. We purchased the DVT's just to be on the safe side.

 

Saxon just about drove us mad last year. It did not stay on one concept long enough for DD to grasp it.

 

We looked at Jacobs; like the PP said, my daughter doesn't want to know all the whys and wherefores. Just the facts ma'am. I liked it, but I'm a tell me why kind of person.

 

BTW, I purchased our Lial's on half.com and got the Text, DVT's, and Solutions manual for $22 including shipping. Search around and you will get a good deal.

Edited July 23, 2010 by lil'red
adding information

[alwaysinhiskeeping]

Lial sequence:

 

BCM (Basic College Math) or Pre-Algebra = Pre-Algebra

(I prefer BCM 7th edition))

 

Introductory Algebra = Algebra 1

Beginning Algebra - Algebra 1 (from different series)--I like Intro 8th edition best

 

Intermediate Algebra = Algebra 2

I like Intermediate 8th edition best

 

Pre-Calc = Pre-Calc

College Algebra + Trigonometry = Pre-Calc

 

 

College Algebra comes AFTER Algebra 2 (it is Algebra 3) and may be taken separately if college major does not require Trig.

 

Lial DOES have a Geometry "Geometry for College Students". It is a basic no-frills Geometry text--not as many of these are published so it is close to $100 for the student text.. other programs are more home-school friendly for this level... but it IS a usable program!

 

Calc would of course come after Pre-Calc...

Thank you for breaking it down. It makes better sense to me now. I will try to get a copy of the three different curriculum from the library and review them. Too bad I had already bought the TT curriculum, but not I am leaning towards not using it. But it's better to know about it now before I start diving into it and change later.

[alwaysinhiskeeping]

I suggest reading several of the old posts about these programs... here are my thoughts from my personal experience (as a parent and a Math teacher) with these programs...

 

Jacobs-- this program has Algebra 1 and Geometry. Jacobs Algebra 1 covers all of the traditional Algebra 1 concepts and a tiny bit more. The methods and wording is a bit on the 'unique' side (non-traditional) and sometimes he will introduce a concept in a confusing way--but within a lesson or two the students will 'see' where he was heading... I suggest using a video component with this program. This is a hit or miss program. If your student THINKS like Jacobs then it will be a good fit--but there are many cases of it 'not working' for some.

 

Lial--this is one of my favorite programs to teach from. This text is 'different' in that the complete teaching lesson is included in the student text. The lessons were written on block scheduling--allow 2 days per lesson--with 20-30 problems being assigned each day (odds only). These are community college texts--but they are totally on a HIGH SCHOOL level (remedial). Being a college text, older editions are easily found--so the program is very inexpensive. It is very possible for this program to be worked independently by a student-- a video component does exist--but it is not usually necessary. I like the layout and the progression. I've used this program all levels of students--from below average to honors.

 

Foerster--this program is best used with above average students. There is a lot of focus given to word problems and it is best if a video component is used as the text was designed to be 'taught' in a classroom situation. Foerster and Jacobs are friends and share a similar philosophy. Jacobs recommends students use Foerster for Algebra 2 following his program. Like the Jacobs texts--if your student 'thinks' like the author then it will be a great program--if not, it can be frustrating.

 

Teaching Textbooks--this is a very popular program. It is either a love or hate relationship. TT is a truly independently published program and their levels are not divided traditionally--even though they are NAMED traditionally. Their Algebra 1 program is not that far below a traditional Algebra 1 program, but their Algebra 2 program covers about half of what a traditional (public school--college expected) Algebra 2 program will cover. The depth is also on the lighter side. TT will help some students gain confidence in Math--but it is lacking challenge/rigor for many. The video component is very necessary. TT is best for below average to low average (non mathy or those not needing college maths) students--noting that some GIFTED Math students may be able to take the simple level of problems taught and expand it on their own.

Why are there so many editions of Lial's? Are the changes for the better? What are the changes? I see one advantage of having many older editions is that it's easier to find the textbook and it's cheaper. Thanks.

[Jann in TX]

The Lial texts are college (and community college texts).

Colleges rely on money made from their bookstore sales..

The require NEW editions almost every other year in most subjects.

 

My Dad teaches History at the university level... they have the SAME situation--NEW texts every other year...

 

In Lial and most other programs that are forced to put out 'new' editions, the largest change is in the cover! In the Lial Algebra texts a few concepts are moved around a bit- but the teaching and the majority of the examples used are exactly the same from one edition to the next... just enough changes that a student HAS to purchase the newer edition in order to complete their homework.

 

Public school texts change (on average) every 4 years. The Holt Geometry text I use is the 2007 edition (released in 2006) and the 2011 edition is being released this fall. Due to budget cuts many schools here in TX are opting NOT to purchase new texts this year... so publishers may have to adapt... hopefully it will not raise the cost of texts too much!

 

Also Pearson/Addison Wesley is one of the BIG publishers... and Margaret Lial has been a leading author of Math texts since the 1970s. Margaret Lial has 2 different series (currently) one was originally published by Pearson and the other by Addision Wesley (they mainly differ in format)... when these publishers merged they kept BOTH programs--schools decide which one suits their Math program best.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Jann in TX

[alwaysinhiskeeping]

Thank you for all the posts. I have been looking at Chalkdust, Jacobs, Lial, and Foerster Algebra I now that I got a copy of these textbooks (yes, it took a while, because I was looking around for used copies). I also have my ds look at each curriculum, go through the lesson to see which one fits him better. Now I have narrowed it down to Lial and Foerster. Does anyone know where to find a solution manual for Foerster? I can teach the lessons so DVD is not what I am looking for. I just don't want to have to do the problems myself in order to check his work.

[Rebecca VA]

I purchased the Foerster's Solution Manual from http://www.bywayofthefamily.com , a Catholic homeschool supplier. It may have been a little more costly than going directly through the publisher, but at least I didn't have to register, prove I was a homeschooler, etc.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Does anyone know where to find a solution manual for Foerster?

I bought mine new from Prentice Hall.