Why is ETC not a complete phonics program?

[Tabrett]

I keep reading about it not being a complete program.

 

What would make it comlpete? What is it missing? If you add readers, why is it not complete?

 

I use PP's with ETC and readers. Honestly, after my dc learned to blend cvc words, I'm not seeing the real need for PP's anymore.

[Mama2Three]

We use ETC as a supplement, although lately it's been more of a spine because DC are mostly independent with it. :) I think that if you use it with the teacher manual and do the additional activities, it is very close to a complete phonics program. That said, PP has helped with fluency, as well as exposing DC to more words. I also am trying to work in more time with Webster's syllabary to round out our phonics program. Just as I like to borrow from different math curricula, I think that my DC benefit from multiple phonics programs as well.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Mama2Three

[TheCoffeeChick]

We use it with OPG -- I have never bought the teacher's guide either, so maybe it is more well-rounded than I thought. :)

 

Also, my ds gets way more reading practice with OPG than with ETC ... could easily be done with easy readers though. And OPG lays out the "rules" of phonics better IMO.

 

But I think if you wanted ETC to be your only program and it is working for you, then go for it!

[ElizabethB]

A complete phonics program is one that teaches all the sounds you need to know to be able to read anything. Ideally, it would also show you how to read multi syllable words and the rules for spelling and pronouncing words.

 

Some kids get just a bit of phonics and are fine. Some get just a bit of phonics and are good readers and poor spellers. Some children are not fine, especially if they've gotten a lot of sight words in the mix, and will be poor readers and spellers until they are remediated with a complete phonics program.

 

All the sounds you need to teach are on one page here:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics%20Lsns/Resources/Letter%20sound%20read.pdf

 

If you know everything on the above page, the syllabary, and how to divide words, you should be able to read anything!

 

It takes whole books to teach this because most children need a lot of repetition before they get it.

 

Many children make the jump between a bit of phonics to reading grade level materials, and most children make the jump between a regular phonics program and multi-syllable words, but some people need everything explicitly taught. And, for those that will do OK without it being explicitly taught, they will learn more about the language and spelling if they are explicitly taught.

 

I have a class later this afternoon of 11 children that are a reminder to me of why I over-teach my daughter and tell all my friends to err on the side of over-teaching phonics and phonetic spelling. They're coming along, but it's really painful to remediate, and they have lost years of reading and years of vocabulary development.

Edited April 14, 2009 by ElizabethB

[Annie Laurie]

A complete phonics program is one that teaches all the sounds you need to know to be able to read anything. Ideally, it would also show you how to read multi syllable words and the rules for spelling and pronouncing words.

 

Some kids get just a bit of phonics and are fine. Some get just a bit of phonics and are good readers and poor spellers. Some children are not fine, especially if they've gotten a lot of sight words in the mix, and will be poor readers and spellers until they are remediated with a complete phonics program.

 

All the sounds you need to teach are on one page here:

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics%20Lsns/Resources/Letter%20sound%20read.pdf

 

If you know everything on the above page, the syllabary, and how to divide words, you should be able to read anything!

 

It takes whole books to teach this because most children need a lot of repetition before they get it.

 

Many children make the jump between a bit of phonics to reading grade level materials, and most children make the jump between a regular phonics program and multi-syllable words, but some people need everything explicitly taught. And, for those that will do OK without it being explicitly taught, they will learn more about the language and spelling if they are explicitly taught.

 

I have a class later this afternoon of 11 children that are a reminder to me of why I over-teach my daughter and tell all my friends to err on the side of over-teaching phonics and phonetic spelling. They're coming along, but it's really painful to remediate, and they have lost years of reading and years of vocabulary development.

 

So in your opinion, ETC does not teach all the sounds? I'm curious about this myself and appreciate your opinion.

[ElizabethB]

So in your opinion, ETC does not teach all the sounds? I'm curious about this myself and appreciate your opinion.

 

I actually do not own ETC. I do own a lot of other phonics programs, though! I'm not sure how much it teaches, that's why I posted the list of sounds, so people can figure out if it teaches them or not for ETC or any other program.

 

Programs that I own which are complete are:

 

PP; OPG; Webster's Speller; Rx for Reading, Teach Them Phonics; Right Track Reading Lessons; Recipe for Reading; Step by Step (British, by McNee); and We All Can Read

 

Webster's Speller is free online, and Webster also taught school for a while and wrote a dictionary, that's a pretty good resume for me, but I'm even more convinced now that I've used it!

 

Edit: You can use these programs as a check, PP is available at most libraries if you don't want to use Webster. Just have your child go through a few words from each section to make sure they know that sound/spelling combination. Sections that they have trouble with, do the whole thing.

Edited April 14, 2009 by ElizabethB

[Wee Pip]

I'm going to take a blind stab at this one:) I would think that ETC books 1-8 would cover all the phonics necessary, but the pace of the program would limit how fast a child actually achieves this knowledge. Most people do 2-3 books per year, and it seems like ETC Book 1 is usually used starting in 1st gr, where the preETC series (letter introduction) are presented in K. This generalization isn't *everyone*, of course, but just the trend I've seen in this series. So following that generalization...

 

K - preETC books A, B, C (letters and sounds)

1st gr - book 1 (short vowels), book 2 (consonant blends), book 3 (silent -e, some short vowels, some consonant digraphs sh, ch, th, etc.)

2nd gr - book 4 (syllables, le, y), book 5 (all, ol, etc.), book 6 (oo, ea, oi, au, etc.)

3rd gr - book 7 (soft c/g, silent letters, ear, ei, eigh, ph), book 8 (suffixes)

 

Looking at that progression, it seems like a long time to learn all of those basic phonics sounds in order to get to reading.

[rafiki]

.

[Tree House Academy]

I think if you do all 8 books, then you have a very good foundation for phonics. My older son was taught with sight words in ps and he is remediating with ETC Books 6-8 right now. Book 6 is "easy" for him. Book 7 gets more complicated, and book 8 makes him scratch his head right now. So, he needs this!

 

I agree, it has to be the pacing. It has limited my 5.5 year old. We are learning phonics with ETC and LLATL Blue. It is taking FOREVER. My son can read really well. He picks up on the reading really quickly, but because he is only to silent e in ETC and working on the long a and e sounds in LLATL, he is frustrated and so am I.

 

We are going to switch and use CLE Learning to Read (starting at LightUnit 106) along with CLE LA 1. This program teaches all phonics in 1 year and then allows him to practice, practice, practice with the reader, and then later with the reading programs.

[KristenS]

We started ETC pretty early, so maybe that helps us. We do the primers as 3/4 yo, and then book 1 and maybe 2 in pre-K, and then 3 and Beyond 1 in K, and 4 and Beyond 2 in 1st. There's a lot in the TG that we don't use which would really round it out even further ... it does work on fluency and things.

 

We started early because the primers are super easy and my kids already knew their letter sounds (well, as well as a 3yo can pronounce them, anyway, LOL). Then I help them with the written work in the early workbooks ... why let handwriting hold them back from reading? We go slow ... if we need a break we take it... but for my oldest this is working well, and my youngest is about to start book 1 in the fall too. She's already reading lots of sight words ... it would be silly for me to hold back on the phonics for another whole school year.

 

Might not be a schedule that works for everyone, but it does for us, especially alternating the later titles with the Beyond books for some variety. ETC 3 and Beyond 1 work well together, and so on.

[skaterbabs]

I was actually discussing ETC with my aunt, a public school teacher in OR, the other day and she said that it's a very good reading program. She spent many years teaching Sp. Ed. students aas well as "regular" students, and currently teaches first graders, so when I mentioned that this was what we're going to use for DD, I was pleased to find that she was not only familiar with the program, but has actually used it with good results.

[Penelope]

I used SWR phonograms and OPGTR. I have all the ETC books but we have only done portions of them.

 

Even though it may look like ETC teaches all the sounds, the books are missing a few sounds. I remember, for example, that they only address two of the sounds of ea, and I know there are others that are missing. It is fairly thorough, though. Oh, and I don't think it does as good of a job at multisyllable words as OPG does. In fact, I wished that OPG had a few more pages of that, but I just wrote words out in syllables, instead. Also, as others mentioned, the pace would have really held us back; maybe not the cse if you have one of those kids that loves to do page after page of workbooks.

[Amy in KS]

I found it to be more of a passive program than an active program. I'll try to explain. First of all, being able to select from multiple choice the sounds is entirely different from being able to produce the sound in applied reading.

 

Furthermore, my student was good at following the rule for that worksheet. She learned the sound "ow" long enough to finish the worksheet, but it didn't mean she remembered that rule from then on and consistently read "ow" in a reading book. Does this make sense?

 

I found it more useful to consistently reinforce phonics rules in the process of reading and in spelling.

[Sew happily ever after]

Pre ETC ABC do a very good job of teaching beginning consonants. I wish they taught the vowels. Honestly you can't read ANYTHING if you don't know the vowel sounds!

 

Books 1-3 are very solid in their presentation of phonics concepts. I wouldn't start book 1 unless the child KNOWS their basic consonant sounds. I wouldn't use them as a stand alone phonics program. I would however use them in conjunction with something else. For example, I've noticed that AAS and ETC could possibly work together with ETC being the supplement or reinforcement.

 

Books 4 and 5 have some pretty awkward sounds/topics. not really sure if I'll use them with my next child. BUT book 6 is good again in its presentations of phonics topics. Haven't gotten to books 7 and 8, but I'm going to give it a try with oldest DD this summer probably.

 

i use the ETC books as "seatwork". We don't use a lot of workbooks around here, so basically they have to do 2 pages per day. I like for it to be something that they can do on their own, without me standing over them "teaching" them. They just go do their seatwork, and usually the ETC books are just review.

 

Another series that is good and goes hand in hand with ETC is the Right into Reading series (1-3) and the Jump Right into Reading (K). They seem to be more thorough than ETC and provide reading practice as well.

[kalanamak]

P

 

i use the ETC books as "seatwork". We don't use a lot of workbooks around here, so basically they have to do 2 pages per day. I like for it to be something that they can do on their own, without me standing over them "teaching" them. They just go do their seatwork, and usually the ETC books are just review.

 

 

:iagree:

 

My 1st grader feels very big and capable having *some*thing he can do independently. We cover the material in SWR first.

[Annie Laurie]

I found it to be more of a passive program than an active program. I'll try to explain. First of all, being able to select from multiple choice the sounds is entirely different from being able to produce the sound in applied reading.

 

Furthermore, my student was good at following the rule for that worksheet. She learned the sound "ow" long enough to finish the worksheet, but it didn't mean she remembered that rule from then on and consistently read "ow" in a reading book. Does this make sense?

 

 

 

Yes, it does. My ds4 is reading very well- I feel confident saying at least on a 2nd grade level, and I've always liked ETC but I don't think it's a good match for him. He can do the workbook himself since he can read it and he checks the answer or writes the word or whatever but he's not really learning phonics rules or remembering them.

 

I've just been struggling with what to do with a reading 4 year old who learned on his own. OPGTR and the like seem like overkill. I guess we'll attempt AAS again. A workbook would have been easier.

[mindygz]

..in case others find this thread later for info. My DD is in book 3 of ETC right now. We did the first 2 books without the teacher's guide but I decided to get it for books 3 & 4. I think it adds quite a lot to the instruction. I wish I'd have gotten the guide for books 1&2. I will when my son is ready.

[~blessedmom~]

Forgive me, but what are ETC and OPGTR?:bigear::D

[Lovedtodeath]

Explode the Code and Ordinary Parents Guide to Teaching Reading.