Explain to me the different flavors of Presbyterianism

[dangermom]

I need to know something about Presbyterianism, and I know there's a bit of a variety within the denomination. Can someone explain the basic beliefs and differences? I know it was founded by John Calvin, who had a sort of society in Switzerland, and it was a big success in Scotland, and there's something called TULIP only not everyone accepts that...help me out please! Oh, and are some congregations pretty evangelical in flavor?

[JoyfulMama]

:lurk5:

[dangermom]

Come on, please? I just want basic information, not a theological argument.

 

...you know what, I bet that's my problem...if I titled this Reformed vs. Orthodox, I would have a 4-page thread by now. :glare: :laugh:

[TravelingChris]

I am familiar with four types of Presbyterians. Three we have attended or been member of and one is a type two of our former churches have turned into.

 

PC-USA is the most liberal branch and the largest. Not all churches are liberal but there have been issues with gay marriage, ordination, etc.

 

Cumberland Presbyterian- a long ago offshoot of the first Presbyterian congregations in the US. Started in the Cumberland area of the US. Main difference was no college was needed for ordination (since those areas at that time had no colleges and yet needed ministers). They dwell on the Holy Spirit more than the others but aren't doing tongues or anything like that (or at least weren't in the largest church of the denomination).

 

EPC- split from PC-USA originally in the 1970's becuase of the increasing liberalism of it. They leave ordination of women up to individual churches but no ordination of gays.

 

PCA- Conservative church originally based in the South. No women as elders. We are currently members of this church although I don't agree with their stand on women. My particular church has women doing many leadership roles so I can let the fact that they have no women elders go.

[Penelope]

There is also the OPC (orthodox presbyterian church) which is quite conservative and does not allow women to be leaders, and calls for traditional psalms and instrumentation. PCA and OPC base their theology on Westminster Confession of faith and are considered reformed (Calvinist).

 

I am not too sure that PCUSA is even very calvinist anymore. They are considered to be more liberal than United Methodist or even Episcopal and I wouldn't call them evangelical (based on my understanding of what evangelical is). ETA: What I mean is that from my understanding, they don't accept all of Calvin's original 5 points, don't agree that the Bible is the infallible Word of God or at least their denominational statements do not reflect this.

 

FWIW, I am more or less reformed but do not attend a Pres. church currently due to DH (we have compromised on Methodist :) ).

Edited March 30, 2009 by Penelope

[dangermom]

Thanks so much! Questions:

 

Which of these subscribe to the TULIP thing? Is that a minority thing or is it common?

 

Baptism: is it required? Is it done for infants, or when?

 

If you had a fairly evangelical-style congregation, how common is that and what would the theology be? I'm guessing that would be the more conservative people? (Is there such a thing as an evangelical-style church that allows women leadership? In general I mean?)

[Alison in KY]

The Cumberland Presbyterian church I used to go to did communion once a month. It was an open communion, so people who weren't church members could participate. They also believed in sprinkling and they would baptize babies.

 

Alison

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Also, there's the ARP--Associate Reformed Presbyterian.

[Tutor]

I need to know something about Presbyterianism, and I know there's a bit of a variety within the denomination. Can someone explain the basic beliefs and differences? I know it was founded by John Calvin, who had a sort of society in Switzerland, and it was a big success in Scotland, and there's something called TULIP only not everyone accepts that...help me out please! Oh, and are some congregations pretty evangelical in flavor?

 

Actually, Presbyterian only refers to the form of government... an eldership oversight with a hierarchy of oversight and leadership. Generally the adjectives used to describe them will give you more of a clue as to their doctrinal beliefs. While most are reformed (generally some form of Calvinism), being Presbyterian does not necessarily mean it is reformed.

 

I am familiar with the Presbyterian Church in America, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelican Presbyterian Church, Presbyterian Church of the United States of America... those are the ones I am familiar with here in the US. There are others around the world, though.

 

If a church calls itself reformed, generally it holds to the tenets of the reformation. There are reformed presbyterians and reformed baptists (there are many others, but these are the ones that generally will refer to themsleves as "reformed"). The former generally believes in peodobaptism (and some paedocommunion) and the latter generally in believers or adult baptism and communion only. Both would probably say that baptism is commanded and should be performed if at all possible (although they would differ on the means) but that it was not a means of salvation. The former generally would consider themselves 5-point Calvinists or 5-point reformers and the latter 4-point.

 

Ack! Gotta run. I'm late. I hope that was helpful and not confusing. Let me know if I need to clarify anything. I'm typing rather hastily, I'm afraid.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Tutor

[anewday]

Thanks so much! Questions:

 

Which of these subscribe to the TULIP thing? Is that a minority thing or is it common?

 

Baptism: is it required? Is it done for infants, or when?

 

If you had a fairly evangelical-style congregation, how common is that and what would the theology be? I'm guessing that would be the more conservative people? (Is there such a thing as an evangelical-style church that allows women leadership? In general I mean?)

 

We are OPC - http://opc.org/

 

You've gotten some really helpful answers, but I wanted to address a few.

 

For our church (and maybe all Presbyterian denoms but I don't know) we don't require that parents baptize their children if they in good conscience cannot. If the parents profess faith and have been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they may become members. Which means we welcome those who don't believe in covenant baptism (or paedobaptism) and don't make it a requirement to join the church body. Obviously they need to respect the church's beliefs to baptize the children of professing believers and not go around trying to change that...lol.

 

I'm confused about your evangelical-style question. Evangelical means different things to different people nowadays, but if you mean it in terms of preaching the gospel - we are evangelical.

 

OPC's do not ordain women as deacons or as elders/pastors.

 

If you lean towards conservative and are looking for a reformed church, OPC is likely a good fit, though not all OPC's are the same - each session (the elders and deacons in each church) determines if they use instruments in worship or not, what kind, hymns and praise songs, just hymns, etc etc. PCA's are very similar to OPC's but with some differences (you will find more variances in worship between PCA's than you will OPC's etc.). Some PCA's have children's church, only praise songs, a band while others use only hymns etc... There are also some differences in their governing structure.

 

Hope this helps a bit.

[dangermom]

If a church calls itself reformed, generally it holds to the tenets of the reformation.

 

:svengo: I thought just about all Protestant churches held to the tenets of the reformation? Martin Luther, no more pope, everyone should read and interpret the Bible? But I kind of had the idea that a church that called itself reformed was Calvinistic. Obviously I'm completely out of my depth here.

 

I'm not looking for a church; I have a friend who has started attending a Presbyterian church and am trying to figure out exactly what that means. I'm not sure she is very clear on the wide variety of Presbyterian churches out there, and anyway have not had the chance to ask her. I'm hoping for some background info.

 

I'm not Protestant myself and find much of the language confusing. By Evangelical I'm thinking fairly conservative (though not as far over as a fundamentalist), probably a contemporary-style service with praise music and a pastor who speaks enthusiastically. Maybe adhering to a Rapture theology, creationism, etc. Probably interested in doing missionary work (the other day I met some teens who were 'soulwinning,' which seemed to mean going door-to-door and inviting people to church--like that maybe?).

 

Sorry, like I say I'm totally out of depth here. It seems like every paragraph gets me a little less clear on what anything is. :willy_nilly:

[KrissiK]

Our church is part of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, which is a growing denomination. We used to be PC-USA but left because of the liberalism. Regarding TULIP - that is an acronym summarizing the doctrinal stance of churches that are Reformed. I will give you a brief, emphasis on brief, summary. (I am writing this only as informative. I do not, and I repeat, I do not want to start any kind of theological debate here)

 

T= Total Depravity. Due to Adam's fall we are dead in our sins and unable to anything good to earn our Salvation.

U= Unconditional Election. God chooses those who would saved, based on His own counsel and nothing we have done good or bad.

L= Limited Atonement. Christ died only for the Elect.The purpose of His death and Resurrection is to secure our salvation. Which He did.

I= Irresistible Grace. God's call to the individual for salvation accomplishes its purpose. We say "yes" gladly.

P= Perserverance of the saints. We cannot lose our salvation.

 

As I said, this is a brief summary. I did not grow up Reformed, and I'm not trying to convince anyone of the Reformed position, although I hold strongly to it. I'm not a debater. If you're really interested, PM me and I can give you a list of really good reformed websites that have a lot more information.

[Ria]

Our church is part of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, which is a growing denomination. We used to be PC-USA but left because of the liberalism.

 

Ours, too! We just left the PC-USA last spring. We are thrilled....our congregation is very conservative and finally, finally, finally we were able to leave the PC-USA and keep our church property, too! The property and church were the main reason we didn't leave years ago. The church itself is very, very old (the original church was founded prior to the Revolutionary War, in 1735) and lovely...we are glad we got to keep it.

 

Ria

[ladydusk]

By Evangelical I'm thinking fairly conservative (though not as far over as a fundamentalist), probably a contemporary-style service with praise music and a pastor who speaks enthusiastically. Maybe adhering to a Rapture theology, creationism, etc. Probably interested in doing missionary work (the other day I met some teens who were 'soulwinning,' which seemed to mean going door-to-door and inviting people to church--like that maybe?).

 

Most OP churches would not fit into this definition of "evangelical." If by "Rapture theology" you mean Left Behindish, then I don't know of Presby churches that hold to this (the PC-USA church that I grew up in didn't seem to have an eschatalogical view as far as I can tell, other views (historic pre-mill, postmillenial, and amillenial eschatology) are held in the OPC).

 

Some PCA churches do the praise-band, contemporary service but there is a greater diversity there than in the OPC; some of their churches are as traditional (or maybe moreso) as the congregation where I'm a member. Both, in my experience, are (were) hymn singing churches, but we also often sing from a Psalter at the OP church.

 

Enthusiastic preaching could have different meanings; our pastor preaches through a book of the Bible in order (my brain isn't working, there's a term for this) He's been preaching through John for a year and a half or so and we're only through Ch 7. (there have been breaks for occasional sermons at baptisms, Christmas, Resurrection Sunday, and for others to fill the pulpit including our pastoral interns) The sermons tend to be long (30-45 minutes). I'd say he's very enthusiastic, but there is no power point or clever entertainment value. My PC(USA) church tended to do 4 week topical series that lasted 15 minutes at the max, generally 10.

 

Dawn talked about baptism a bit; I'm pretty sure our congregation encourages all voting members to be paedo-baptistic, but have some "regular attenders" who are credo-baptists. We are baby sprinklers because we believe that the Lord's covenant extends to the children of believers.

 

While all OPCers should recognize God's creation of all things ex nihilo (and deny evolution), not all of us are 7 day creationists (I am); there are some differing views on just how to read scripture on this point.

 

I have never been asked to go door-to-door a la Evangelism Explosion.

 

We do not ordain women to office (Deacon or Elder). We do try to adhere first to scripture and secondly to the Westminster Confession of Faith (and catechize using the Westminster catechisms). TULIP is a summary of Calvin's theology that Calvin did not write; it was created to counter the teachings of [/url]Jacobus Arminius 50-some years after Calvin's death. While the WCF would agree with what is stated in TULIP, the Canons of Dordt (where TULIP was formulated) is not one of the confessional documents we would use as our standards.

 

Presbyterianism, as someone stated is a system of church government, its name derives from Greek πρεσβύτερος (presbyteros), the comparative form of πρέσβυς (presbus), "elder" (see Wiki). John Knox studied under Calvin in Geneva and brought the system back to Scotland where it was accepted and the "Presbyterian" church grew, imported to N Ireland and eventually to the US. There are other reformed churches that come out of the Dutch tradition (see the Heidleberg Confession) that would also hold to very similar teaching.

 

The Presbyterian church in the US has had several splits; the OPC off the mainline church in 1937, the PCA in 1973. There have been talks between the two denominations to join, but something has kept that from happening ... the greater variety in PCA churches or what is sometimes seen as extreme stringency in the OPC. There are other Presby denominations in the states than have been listed here the RPCNA being perhaps the largest of those not mentioned, but there are some others as well. The PC(USA) remains the largest (I believe), then either the PCA or EPC (I don't know if the recent exodus has made the EPC larger than the PCA?), then the OPC.

[anewday]

our pastor preaches through a book of the Bible in order (my brain isn't working, there's a term for this)

 

Expository. Or systematic. I think. LOL

Edited March 30, 2009 by Dawn

[Tutor]

:svengo: I thought just about all Protestant churches held to the tenets of the reformation? Martin Luther, no more pope, everyone should read and interpret the Bible? But I kind of had the idea that a church that called itself reformed was Calvinistic. Obviously I'm completely out of my depth here.

 

 

 

LOL. See, this is what happens when I type too quickly. (I should never, ever think I am going to just "pop in" here. I can never just pop. :D ) I was trying to point out a distinction that I understand exists between Eastern churches and those denominations that separated at the time of the reformation. I believe that the eastern churches separated from the catholic church prior to the reformation, and that the denominations such as Methodist, Lutheran, and Presbyterian eventually emerged out of the reformation when it was clear that those heading it were going to be unsuccessful reforming the catholic church and parted ways. (It was never the intention of Calvin, for example, to leave the catholic church, he wanted to reform it back to what he felt it had strayed from.)

 

As someone else mentioned, reformed presbyterian churches (I'm not sure if all, maybe all?) tend to align themselves with the Scriptural doctrines outlined in the Westminster Confession of Faith. Our family has belonged to both Orthodox Presbyterian and Presbyterian Church in America and I would say that I have seen little difference between the two - maybe the OPC is a bit more conservative (concerning interpretation of Scripture), but we have seen various degrees of conservatism in both denominations depending on the congregation.

 

Ladydusk gave a very good explanation; I just wanted to clarify my apparently confusing perspective. Sorry about that.

[ladydusk]

I thought just about all Protestant churches held to the tenets of the reformation? Martin Luther, no more pope, everyone should read and interpret the Bible? But I kind of had the idea that a church that called itself reformed was Calvinistic. Obviously I'm completely out of my depth here.

 

Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door at Wittenberg October 31, 1517. In France, Calvin converted to Christian (probably Luther-esque) belief and broke from the Catholic church sometime between 1529-1532. According to Wiki (again, and I know it isn't a great source, but it is quick and easy here),

 

"Calvin's authority was practically uncontested during his final years, and he enjoyed an international reputation as a reformer distinct from Martin Luther.[47] Initially, Luther and Calvin had mutual respect for each other. However, a doctrinal conflict had developed between Luther and Zürich reformer Huldrych Zwingli on the interpretation of the Eucharist. Calvin's opinion on the issue forced Luther to place him in Zwingli's camp. Calvin actively participated in the polemics that were exchanged between the Lutheran and Reformed branches of the Reformation movement."

 

There were agreements, of course, including things like the 5 Solas. (I think Lutherans would hold to these, or maybe only 3?) The Reformation was not a lock-step movement, rather several men who were coming to similar understandings of RCC teachings at the same time (and certainly the influence of Luther cannot be overlooked).

 

I don't know, but I don't think Lutherans call themselves "Reformed" (I could be very wrong on this point). I'm not entirely sure why, but Reformed seems to refer specifically to Calvinistic teaching (maybe because Calvin gets such a bad rap, so people "soften" it by using "Reformed"?)

 

Anyway, "Martin Luther, no more pope, and everyone should read their Bible" aren't necessarily the distinctives I think of when I consider the Reformation; so much more was going on that led to some of these conclusions. And, as I said before, the Reformation was more of a grass-roots type movement than your terminology would convey.

 

These are very general impressions from what I've studied in the past and some quick google searching. I hope they are truthful representations of historical fact and I'm certain that if they aren't, they'll be corrected. [grin]

[dangermom]

Well, ladydusk, I do realize that the Reformation was quite a bit more complex than the way I summarized it, and not an organized movement. :tongue_smilie: I was just completely confused at the statement I quoted, which was then retracted.

 

Thanks everyone for your help and explanations and patience--I think I've got something resembling a handle on this now. Maybe.:001_smile:

[ladydusk]

I apologize, no offense intended. Tutor's explanation was posted while I was writing so I didn't see it until after my post went up.

 

Again, I totally see that my explanation could be read as if I were "talking down," but that was certainly not my intent.

[TravelingChris]

All the Presbyterian denominations that I am familiar with (PCUSA, Cumberland Presbyterian, PCA, EPC) are evangelical in the way I define it which is not anything to do with style of music, style of preaching, creationism, or anything like that. Evangelical refers to spreading the Gospel. All the churches I have ever gone to were active in spreading the Gospel. This included having VBS for the neighborhood, supporting missionaries, having mibnistries like International Students to reach out to unbelievers, sermons on reaching out to unsaved associates, etc, etc. Having been a Catholic as a child, this was for the most part a very different emphasis than they had. In the Catholic Church, there were missiniories but they were professional clergy. In the Presbyterian churches, the missionaries were often lay people. We were all encouraged to help with various efforts to expand the spread of the Gospel.

[dangermom]

I apologize, no offense intended. Tutor's explanation was posted while I was writing so I didn't see it until after my post went up.

 

Again, I totally see that my explanation could be read as if I were "talking down," but that was certainly not my intent.

Oh, I'm not offended. :) I was trying to say that in a friendly way, but it's hard to do in type. Thus the :tongue_smilie:. Pax.