college purpose??

[homeschoolin'mygirls]

These boards always get me thinking. New ideas--always good.

 

What do you think the purpose for college is?

 

I've always thought the purpose was for further learning, and specialization in a field that one wants to work.

 

Some recent posts in threads talk more of college years as a learning experience that might or might not contribute to a lifelong career. A professional degree(job prospect at the end) versus a college experience based on learning a subject because of a passionate interest.

 

I come from a nuclear family without much money. Vocational school was considered a big expense. When I decided I wanted more education, I was in position of paying for it myself so I chose my classes. And some of those classes had nothing to do with my major. But I also always knew what my ultimate goal was.

 

Many of my high school friends (1978) attended a 4 year university, and archeology was a popular major then. A really interesting degree but to most of my friends not very useful when it came to getting a job.

 

I am in support of life-long learning; I don't know that I am support of paying thousands and thousands of dollars to study it for four or more years.t. Life-long learning is a process that --well, to state the obvious--goes on for your whole life. I know of many people that work in one field and have passionate hobbies in other areas of their life.

 

When I look at the economy now, I truly see a need for teenagers to have marketable skills for their future. When I look at colleges, I see a way to obtain specialized knowledge that leads to and benefits/enhances career choices.

 

I'm interested in what others think of this subject.

 

nandell

 

This is not to be snarky in any way to any past posts or POVs about this subject. I truly am trying to understand another viewpoint about college.

[momof2boys]

Yes, college is a learning experience and I tend to agree with you. I had to get my nursing degree after I was married. To me you don't just go to college to keep learning only, but to pursue a job in the end. YES, college ia very exspensive as I can attest to that. I am back in college pursuing another degree and it is costing me over $7500 dollars a year and I don't have the exspense of gas, food and other misc. things because I am doing college online. So Icould not even imagine what it would cost if I actually went to a university.

I think kids need to figure out what they want to do before they just go to college. For some that may mean working for a year after highschool before they go off to college. Some jobs do not require a four year college and a votech school may suffice or even on the job training. My oldest will go to college and pursue a history degree with obtaining a Phd as his goal. Will he make a lot of money, perhaps not , will he be happy with his career, yes he will. I believe he will achieve his goal because of his passion for it. My youngest wants to get a computer engineering degree with the idea of pursuing a computer software job. He also wants to get his Phd.

[Gwen in VA]

These are my nominations for "why college" -- and they are in no particular order.

 

1) "Training" for a job. Very self-explanatory. We do all hope that that degree translates into an ability not only to earn more money but also to do so in an area of interest. Money matters, but I know that there is someone out there who earned $100K annually selling cookies. Hopefully that degree will help our children to do something with their lives that expresses their gifts and interests.

 

2) Intellectual development. A "real" education, as we classical homeschoolers know well, is more than just job-training. It is training the mind, the soul, and the spirit. My son's music history class and my dd's film theory classes hold NO direct relevance to anything they might do, but they learned a lot in each class and they are glad to have had the exposure / experiences.

 

3) Step towards complete independence. Self-explanatory -- but I have enjoyed watching my dd1 wrestle with adult decisions while she is being mentored by profs and a few other adults as well as being in close contact with dh and me.

 

4) Great place to meet a future spouse and close friends. I know of no other environment where you are so likely to meet so many like-minded people. (It certainly doesn't happen to all people at all colleges.....)

[Jane in NC]

My college career began a number of recessions ago, so I think I appreciate some of the questions raised by the original poster on the purpose of college. (Things were so bad that year that the state rescinded its promise on grant money to students, forcing many of us to take out loans during the second semester.) Many of my fellow students did not have the money (hence luxury) of attending college for four years in a row. Many took the occasional semester or year off to work. I knew students who worked in factories and as lumberjacks. They were all happy to return to the classroom when these stints were over.

 

While anecdotally we all know people without degrees who earn a lot of money, the statistical truth of the matter is that college grads tend to earn more. If money is a motivation, college can be a good financial investment.

 

I, for one, do not define success through financial terms. Success for me includes having a knowledge base which a post-secondary educational institution can provide. Gwen summed it up nicely: we develop intellectually, we meet friends with whom we have things in common and who challenge us, we are presented with opportunities that we may not have otherwise.

 

The jobs that my husband and I have worked have required specialized degrees. In my husband's case, a bachelor's degree would have sufficed, but his master's degree brought a higher pay grade as an initial hire (and has probably made him a more valuable employee in other aspects). In my case, I would not have been able to teach at the college level without a master's degree.

 

My father was a skilled tradesman so I do not undervalue this sort of job. We need skilled tradesmen! Not everyone is college material, but I would like to see those who are have the opportunity to stretch their minds in the way that college does.

 

I learned a lot in undergrad, more in grad school. I also learned a lot when I spent a summer in college traveling around Europe with a backpack. Not everyone is cut out to take a train into small towns where one doesn't speak the language and figure out how to find accommodation or where to get cheap eats. My husband learned a lot as a summer wilderness camp counselor. Not the job for me. We all have our gifts and talents that we need to develop in a number of ways. The key may be finding (and leading our students to help them find) the best way to create a meaningful life.

 

Best,

Jane

[Sandra in NC]

I recently read Real Education by Charles Murray. He posits that while all students need post-secondary education, only the top 10% (intellectually) should go to college. Most people should gear their post-secondary education to learning a skill for the job-market.

 

This book is a quick read and I recommend it.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I was just having this conversation with a nurse I was working with. Of course she had a goal in mind, but she picked a large college with the expectation of finding a diversity of friends lacking in her small hometown. In her words, she thought, "I'll make an African-Amiercan friend, an Indian friend, and an English friend, and they'll all be different and they'll change me through their friendships." She laughed and said yes, she did meet a variety of people from all over the world, but all the friends she ended up making were "just like me" regarldess of nationality or ethnic background. Mind you, this nurse is very young (still in her 20's), but she was expressing a profound truth she would have never discovered in her tiny Midwestern town. She was raised to believe that people who looked different or were from a different country were, well, different. For her, yes, college was a path to a career, but it was also four years of discovery about the world outside her little frame of reference. Oh, and she also got her MRS degree (as in, she met her spouse).

 

I don't think I can narrow the benefits I desire my children to receive from college down to just one thing.

[jacqui in mo]

I recently read Real Education by Charles Murray. He posits that while all students need post-secondary education, only the top 10% (intellectually) should go to college. Most people should gear their post-secondary education to learning a skill for the job-market.

 

This book is a quick read and I recommend it.

 

What percentage of students enroll in college now?

[Laura K (NC)]

I've developed my opinion this past year. The stuff I want my boys to know for knowledge's sake, I'm trying to teach them at home, or find them a cheap or free way to learn it. I feel a really strong desire to push my boys toward a career that will support a homeschool family, and I don't think all college majors, however interesting, will do that.

 

College is just so expensive, that unless you have a lot of spare cash lying around, I don't think its the best route to education for education's sake. For sheer learning, I am trying to teach my boys how to teach themselves and to encourage them that learning is enjoyable. Some of the smartest people I know didn't go to college or didn't major in the thing that they know so much about. They taught themselves.

 

As an adult, I would be thrilled if my boys took the occasional class at a college or university for the sake of learning, once their other financial needs have been met for their families. But I would be even more convinced that I had served them well if they had lots of bookshelves filled with books that they enjoyed and learned from, themselves.

[Anna]

I think kids need to figure out what they want to do before they just go to college. For some that may mean working for a year after highschool before they go off to college.

 

Although that would be an ideal situation, in most cases it is not very realistic to expect incoming college students to already have a chosen degree program or to know what type of work they want to do after college.

 

My oldest is currently finishing her second year of college. She is a serious student, not one to spend her college time playing and partying. Even if she wanted to party her schedule wouldn't allow it. She has strict academic requirements to remain in Honors Program and to keep her scholarship and she works part-time on campus. In spite of her serious nature, she was not able to declare a major until she began her second year. She's a poli-sci major and didn't know she wanted to pursue this degree program until AFTER taking a couple of poli-sci classes during her first year.

 

Rather than to expect all incoming students to already have a career chosen, I think it would be more helpful for them to enter this phase of their life with a purposeful determination to be the best student they can possibly be. You can't do that if you view college life as "party-hardy" time. A serious student will be able to declare a major before the end of their second year and stick with it. Those who are there to party are too occupied with having fun. And it's not that college can't be fun; it should be. I'm mainly referring to immature college students who see no wrong in neglecting their studies so they can play. Parents whose students are not mature enough to buckle down and make the grades in college, should seriously consider having their kids take 1-2 years after high school to allow them a bit more growing up time. Why waste time and money in college when your heart's not into it?

 

This would be a useful goal to aim for in grades 11 and 12--- to train our kids in how to take their education and even life in general very seriously because success in college is no joking matter.

 

Oh yeah-- I view college as a way to further expand in wisdom and knowledge. No matter what job you end up doing afterwards, you can always draw from what you learned in college as it makes you a more well-rounded person.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Anna

[Ria]

What an excellent question!

 

I think college should be attended with a specific career in mind. I say that from experience...I attended an excellent college and majored in both biology and English. Why? Because I liked them. Well, that's all well and good, but I had no career plans. Nada. Dh and I want our kids to have a good idea of their career choice before we send them to school, since we see college as a means to a specific end. If my kids really had no idea at all about which direction to take i school, we'd suggest that they work for a year and try to figure out what they want to do.

 

Currently, our twins are sophomores in college; dd is majoring in nursing, and ds is majoring in civil engineering. Ds (16) is already looking at colleges that offer a good business program. Ds (14) wants some type of medical or science-related field...he's already narrowed it down to that.

 

IRL, I haven't found many parents who feel the way we do about this. I'm interested to see what others have to say. Thanks for asking!

 

Ria

[cathmom]

We live in an area where a college degree is vitally important. The lack of one has hurt my dh in his chances of being hired for jobs where he really didn't need one to do the job. The older you get, the harder it is to get the degree. So I really think you should just go on to college and get a degree as cheaply as possible before you have a family to support.

[momof2boys]

Ria,

My husand and I totally agree with you on this. When I went to college I had no idea what I wanted to do. I changed my major several times and thus ended up spending longer in college and more money than I should have for my education. Finally I just picked nursing because quite frankly I couldn't decide on anything else. I will say that I did enjoy the first few years of my nursing career. However, after only the first year I knew that it was not what I wanted to do with the rest of my life n regards to a career. My husband and I paid for my college and I feel like I wasted a huge amount of money. I should have gotten a job at a hospital first and worked around nursing before going to college. If I had done that I would have known that nursing was not for me.

I can give many more examples of family and friends who have had the same experiences I did.

I would like to say though that if a child has a passion for something and knows that is what they want to do then I would def. encourage them to go to college right out of highschool. My oldest wants to get a Phd in history and become a college professor. He is 17 now and this has been his desire for over 4 years now. History is is passion. My youngest is 15 and he wants to get a computer engineer degree and work for a gaming company. So for them we encourage them in their passions and can see them in these jobs for many years to come.

Edited February 20, 2009 by momof2boys

[mcconnellboys]

"When I look at the economy now, I truly see a need for teenagers to have marketable skills for their future. When I look at colleges, I see a way to obtain specialized knowledge that leads to and benefits/enhances career choices."

 

I'm not so sure that much of what colleges offer in the way of majors *will* provide knowledge that leads to and benefits/enhances career choices in the future - save in more general terms of knowing how to learn, being able to manage one's time, etc., etc.

 

Let's take one field that I still typically think of as very hot in the U.S. market, for instance: imaging technology of any sort, be it x-rays, MRI, CT scans, the newer combos of some of these, whatever. We just did a hospital visit with a top notch Radiologist this past week and he tells us that they've been overnighting their stuff to India, Southeast Asia, etc. for quite some time now. The law is still that the attending doc at the local hospital has to also review the work and write up the actual diagnosis, but if he's mega busy and behind in his schedule who knows if this is really happening? And quality control is impossible, but still, it's happening.....

 

A few weeks ago I was talking to some architects I know about how long they've been sending out their drafting and other work to areas like Southeast Asia and how much cheaper it is for them to get the work done, plus faster.....

 

What area of study can we enroll our children in next year that will provide them a secure job in ten years? I'm not sure that there's any safe answer to that, save perhaps doctors or other medical workers dealing directly with patients on a local level, government workers of some sort, and business majors, in general, for any other sort of work that does manage to stay here at home....

 

What about kids who have no interest whatsoever in working within the standard business arena? Who have no interest in science and math? Who don't want to be medical workers?

 

I've got a history and literature guy on my hands who only has one more year of high school. What will he do that will make his heart happy as he goes through life?

[Jane in NC]

 

What area of study can we enroll our children in next year that will provide them a secure job in ten years? I'm not sure that there's any safe answer to that, save perhaps doctors or other medical workers dealing directly with patients on a local level, government workers of some sort, and business majors, in general, for any other sort of work that does manage to stay here at home....

 

 

 

Let's take a look at this question from an historical perspective.

 

Business people have been around for a long time whereas the business degree is a newer creation. It certainly is a more popular degree today than in my college days when business oriented people earned degrees in economics, accounting or engineering, then perhaps went on to earn an MBA.

 

In fact, Computer Science did not really exist as a degree when I was an undergrad. People earned math degrees then learned what they needed to about programming on the job.

 

One of my friends who worked at IBM in its heyday ('80's) had a BS in History, followed by an MBA. IBM was known back then for hiring liberal arts types--people who could think.

 

So what I am wondering is if there will be a need ten or twenty years hence for things that we just are not imagining in today's world.

 

My husband works with people who have two years degrees and/or military experience. They can only rise to a certain point within the corporation that employs them. After that, a four year degree is required. Don't get me wrong--these are people with good jobs that pay well. But some of them are more ambitious than their current position. Without the degree, they won't have a chance. Cathmom has already made the comment on how hard it is to go back to school after one has a family, so there may be reason just to get a degree, any degree.

 

The problem may also be if you have a kid with champagne taste who has no ambition beyond working at the Dairy Queen. If anyone goes into the world with their eyes open to the fact that being a _______________ only pays $30K a year and he is happy with that, then so be it. I think the problem is reconciling a desire for a more extravagant lifestyle with a career choice that will not fund it. Or racking up $100K in student loans for a job that will only pay $25K annually.

 

But none of us has the crystal ball on "hot jobs" of the future. Which brings me back to wondering if the best thing that we can do is give our kids a solid, classical education so that they can think and be trained in the next technology or learn to speak the language of the next rising nation.

 

Such an interesting discussion!

[ThelmaLou]

I'm starting to think college is only good for credentials (when they're a "must" for your field of study and there's no other way to get them, i.e. apprenticeship) and a "foot in the door" for many companies.

 

At the company my husband works for, there are tight rules about how high you can climb the ladder based on your level of education. What a shame. There are brilliant people who don't have the diploma or credentials, but who do have the brains, the problem soving skills, the ingenuity, the integrity, and the work ethic.

 

I majored in English and "earned" my certification to teach secondary students. It's laughable, really, that they consider me to be qualified based on my coursework. Unless it's a highly specialized field, I tend to think that much of what goes on at universities is a royal waste of time.

 

And don't even get me started on what I think about the value of the "college experience."

 

I'm starting to really think outside the box and encourage my boys to do the same when it comes to life after high school. If going away to a 4 year university ends up being the best route for what they're suited to do, that's fine. But I don't want to get stuck in the mindset that it's the only way. I want their education to continue long-term, but not necessarily in a typical college setting. Not to mention the fact that we refuse to go into debt to send them to school, and we're encouraging them to avoid doing the same.

[asta]

I'm starting to think college is only good for credentials (when they're a "must" for your field of study and there's no other way to get them, i.e. apprenticeship) and a "foot in the door" for many companies.

 

Absolutely. The line in my family is that, what used to require a HS diploma now requires a BA/BS; what used to require a BA/BS now requires an MA/MS... etc. We call it "degree inflation". I think it started in earnest in the late seventies, early eighties when the economy was in the crapper: lots of "over-educated/qualified" people had to accept jobs that were "beneath" their qualification level. When the economy improved, and they moved "up", the job descriptions were still written/re-written with the educational qualifications of the last person in mind. Hence: degree inflation.

 

At the company my husband works for, there are tight rules about how high you can climb the ladder based on your level of education. What a shame. There are brilliant people who don't have the diploma or credentials, but who do have the brains, the problem soving skills, the ingenuity, the integrity, and the work ethic.

 

This is so prevalent. I have a hunch, however, that the current world economic crisis is going to affect a change in attitude towards the level/type of schooling that is required. I really don't think that the attitude of "everyone should go to college" is going to survive such a significant downturn. Even Europe, which has traditionally had 'free' university for those who could qualify by exam, is beginning to charge students (it's nominal, but it is a shift designed to make people think twice).

 

I majored in English and "earned" my certification to teach secondary students. It's laughable, really, that they consider me to be qualified based on my coursework. Unless it's a highly specialized field, I tend to think that much of what goes on at universities is a royal waste of time.

 

Hear, hear! On paper, I'm qualified for a whole host of things I am not comfortable doing. In reality, I'm qualified for many things for which I do not have the paper/credentials (that would be that 'life-long learning' thing...). The mere concept that universities are now offering "remedial" coursework in subjects that are taught at the 10th and 11th grade level is a red flag to me that universities are more interested in money than educating those who actually belong there (erm... this is a circular argument, because the universities are deciding who belongs there, and they are offering the classes...)

 

And don't even get me started on what I think about the value of the "college experience."

 

I believe this is very subjective. My own kid will have been all over the world by the time he is 18. He already eats weird foods, speaks to 'foreigners' and speaks a foreign language. He has never had a small town to have been 'from'. Anything he wants to gain from university will be academic (literally). Conversely, the children of my hometown friends have never left their own neighborhood, and would probably revel in all of the complexities available at many universities.

 

I'm starting to really think outside the box and encourage my boys to do the same when it comes to life after high school. If going away to a 4 year university ends up being the best route for what they're suited to do, that's fine. But I don't want to get stuck in the mindset that it's the only way. I want their education to continue long-term, but not necessarily in a typical college setting. Not to mention the fact that we refuse to go into debt to send them to school, and we're encouraging them to avoid doing the same.

 

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better.

 

 

asta

[mcconnellboys]

"But none of us has the crystal ball on "hot jobs" of the future. Which brings me back to wondering if the best thing that we can do is give our kids a solid, classical education so that they can think and be trained in the next technology or learn to speak the language of the next rising nation."

 

Yes, this is the point I'm at right now, so that's where I'm currently setting my headings. If my son matures enough during college to learn about and seek out some hot new career that's coming down the pike, then I'm all for that. Otherwise, I just want him to be educated as well and broadly as possible, so that hopefully he'll be ready for whatever comes his way in later life.

[Vida Winter]

My hope is that it will become apparent which careers have the best prospects by the time our younger children start college. My gut feeling is that college needs to have a specific purpose -- our students no longer have the luxury of "finding themselves" over an extended period of years. When college was not so expensive, so what. But now, I'd say, decide what it's going to be by mid-sophomore year, or we're gonna have a serious talk.