HELP! FLL3 Predicate Nominatives?

[Jenn Robinson]

Hello- I'm a little embarrassed to ask (I never had grammar in school) but my dd8 and I are in lesson 38 in FLL3 and are so frustrated!

 

Does an 8 year old need to really understand predicate nominative/adjective/direct object diagramming?

 

She has loved this book up until this point and all of a sudden we are both overwhelmed.

 

Should we push through it and know that we'll get it again next year? (and the next, and the next....) or should we switch to R&S where the #3 book has simpler diagramming?

Thanks for any advise!:)

[Mama Lynx]

You certainly won't come to any harm by using Rod and Staff until the diagramming is less overwhelming for you :) Or, by slowing down in FLL 3. There's no point in just continuing on in the same manner, if your student is having trouble, is there? when you're overwhelmed, by all means take a break, back up and go more slowly, or switch to something else for a bit.

 

Then, later on, when you come back to the problem topic, it will often go much more smoothly.

 

An alternative is that you can post your frustrations here. You said that you are overwhelmed by this as well. Can we help you to understand the grammar, better? I don't have FLL3, so I don't know how Susan presents the material.

 

If you follow TWTM recommendations to start Latin in 3rd grade, you will quickly come to the point where your student will need to understand direct objects and predicate nominatives, depending on the program you use. But other than that, no, there's no harm in waiting a bit.

[adrienne]

We waited until 4th grade to start FLL 3 and I'm glad we did. Those concepts can be challenging for an 8 year old.

 

If it helps:

predicate adjectives follow linking verbs and describe the subject -- "Joe is funny"

predicate nominates also follow linking verbs but rename the subject -- "Joe is a man"

direct objects follow action verbs and answer who or what -- "I eat cake"

 

We're currently doing LC1 and I think the grammar there helps, but again, is challenging for a 4th grader.

 

hth,

Adrienne

[Jenn Robinson]

Thank you both so much for responding! Aderienne, thank you for the brake down- that is very helpful! I myself will memorize it! ;)

 

Mama Lynx- you made a good point I hadn't thought of yet- she IS doing Latin so maybe we need to really pound it in now? We're using Prima Latina but so far it is mostly just vocab and she LOVES it! Any idea how long I have before she/we would be learning grammar in latin?

 

I just thought that maybe we'd do a little of R&S 3 to review all the diagramming she already knows before moving on. I've looked ahead in FLL3 and a lot of it looks like the grammar in R&S 5. I could be wrong though.:confused:

 

I am so thankful for the advise here!

[adrienne]

We did PL last year (3rd gr) and enjoyed it. So far, LC1 is somewhat daunting -- this is where the grammar starts. My head often spins trying to learn the latin grammar. It sure would have been helpful to have learned this as a child myself.

 

Anyway, if you continue with this latin curriculum, you'll begin grammar then.

 

hth,

Adrienne

[cillakat]

We waited until 4th grade to start FLL 3 and I'm glad we did. Those concepts can be challenging for an 8 year old.

 

If it helps:

predicate adjectives follow linking verbs and describe the subject -- "Joe is funny"

predicate nominates also follow linking verbs but rename the subject -- "Joe is a man"

direct objects follow action verbs and answer who or what -- "I eat cake"

 

We're currently doing LC1 and I think the grammar there helps, but again, is challenging for a 4th grader.

 

Fwiw, we're also doing FLL3 in 4th grade and it's just right.

 

K

[Caroline4kids]

I have to say that I learned more about the parts of speech and functions through Shurley Grammar than anything else. We have dropped the program, but we continue to chant the jingles and parse sentences using the jingles as a guide.

 

Also, I want to second (or third) the comments about LC1. We are half way through it and grammar concepts are coming together quite nicely now.

[nmoira]

I don't know how it is taught in FLL, but in Michael Clay Thompson's program, he uses an equals sign to replace the linking verb to show the relationship.

 

The boat is blue. / the boat = blue

The clown seemed sad. / the clown = sad

The thief was Rick. / the thief = Rick

 

In early levels he doesn't differentiate between predicate nominatives and predicate adjectives, instead calling them both Subject Complements (but he notes that they can be nouns or adjectives). Because it's a SUBJECT complement, the form is subjective, not objective.

[Sew happily ever after]

In all honesty I don't think that my 3rd grader KNOWS or would be able to identify a predicate nominative or adjective. i would have to remind her or prod her. the way fll3 is set up the diagraming lines are already drawn you simply place the correct words on the correct lines. I don't think you 8yo will be harmed if she doesn't KNOW predicate nominatives/adjectives by heart right now. i think as long as she knows that DO (direct objects) follow action verbs and predicate somethings follow linking, being verbs she'll be OK for now. It will come later. AND she will get it the next year and the next and the next...It also wouldn't hurt to take a break for a week or two from the book and come back to it later...what about doing some of the oral language or dictionary skills from the back of the book for a while b/4 tackling the dreaded predicate nom./adj.?

[Lori in MS]

We also do FLL 3 in 4th grade.

[FlockOfSillies]

It's totally normal to wonder whether it's really necessary to know something, when you've managed to make it this far into adulthood without ever having learned it yourself. It's awfully tempting to just avoid teaching through your weak spots. For me, those spots include science (especially physics), geometry, and math beyond Algebra II. I'm planning to outsource proofs to dh! :lol:

 

I want to caution you (and other moms who've asked this same question) not to skip teaching the stuff that's hard for you. Here's why:

 

1.) I don't know about you, but one of the reasons I homeschool is to give my dc a better education than the one I received. No way am I skipping physics with my kids!

 

2.) You have the chance as an adult to get "the classical education you never had", to quote TWEM. Just last week I learned that the "roly-poly" is a crustacean. (Thank you, God's Design for Life!) And I can't even count the number of things I've learned from SOTW as an adult.

 

3.) This one's a toughie: what kind of lesson are you teaching your kids about handling the hard parts of life? Does it foster a love for learning in your kids if they see you seeking the easy way out of schoolwork?

 

4.) By avoiding teaching your weak spots, you'll guarantee that they'll also become your kids' weak spots.

 

5.) There are few things in the academic realm that aren't worth knowing. There's so much to learn, and so little time! On the contrary, there are lots of things in the world at large that aren't worth knowing: how to advance through all the levels of Grand Theft Auto, or the pregnancy status of Angelina Jolie... you get the picture.

 

6.) Prodigies are rare. You'll almost never see a great musician who can't read music or who doesn't have a working knowledge of music theory. Usually those prodigies pick it up so easily, it's like breathing to them. Writers are no different. Great writers are not ignorant of grammar. On the contrary, they know grammar intimately, to the point where it is intuitive, effortless. That comes from practice, practice, practice.

 

7.) It's usually wise to consult experts for topics in which we are not experts ourselves. Isn't that why we buy curriculum in the first place? If Jessie Wise, Exalted Mother of the Overmind, thinks it's both necessary and possible to teach predicate nominatives to 8yo's, I'm going to take her opinion pretty seriously. Ditto for the writers of all GOOD curricula. Guess what? The writers of R&S think predicate nominatives are important, too.

 

To answer your actual question... :D We switched to FLL3 last year, after flaming out with R&S. The sequence of the diagramming lessons in R&S(compound subjects and predicates early on), combined with the need for my slowpoke dd to draw every. single. diagram!, produced a disaster for us. We lost nearly a whole year of grammar progress because of it, and we're still recovering from it, even now.

 

I think you should forge ahead with FLL3. Predicate nominatives will definitely be covered later in the book, and also in FLL4. If you've gotten this far with FLL3, you've undoubtedly noticed that there's lots and lots of review. It will click eventually for your dd, most likely when she's able to contrast predicate nominatives with direct objects.

 

It's totally normal for kids to hit roadblocks in their learning. That's not a curriculum problem, necessarily. Most of the time it's just a function of how our brains develop -- in fits and spurts. Part of the beauty of homeschooling is that you have the opportunity to ensure that those roadblocks don't produce permanent gaps in your child's education.

 

HTH!

[mamaof2andtwins]

It is not necessary in 3rd grade. Our program does not even touch on it until 5th, I think.

 

Jennie

[two2homeschool]

We are on lesson 51 of FLL3 so we recently dealt with that section. I had a poor high school education due to overcrowding in our school which resulted in alternating half days for everyone. Anyway, my grammar is virtually non-existant! However, the section you are talking about is a bit challenging at first but just bare with it, follow the "script" and it will all make sense. For me it didn't make sense for quite a few lessons but there is review, and review and it will become less "foreign" to you after awhile. Don't give up! Those lessons also seem long, but you will be back to the regular short, to the point lessons and it will soon seem easier and WELL worth the effort.

 

All the best,

[Emmy]

My 8yo son and I found that lesson really challenging as well and I think I came here and posted something similar. If I had it to do over I would have waited on FLL3 until next year - I'm sure I will wait on it till 4th with my younger kids. I do think it's necessary and important but not necessarily so young - waiting one more year won't hurt.

 

I will agree though - it does get easier - there is a lot of reinforcement in FLL3. My son is doing well with it now (although I wonder how much he is retaining).

[Twinmom]

I am teaching FLL3 to my 2nd and 3rd grader together. We also got stuck around lesson 38! I remember telling my husband I'd like to give up on grammar that day! However, we pushed through it and found that the reviews were easier than the introduction of that subject. They are both doing fine now.

 

From my perspective, I don't expect them to fully understand predicate adjectives and nominatives at this age. I see it as more of a gentle introduction. I know we'll repeat it over and over again until someday they grab ahold of it. That's sort of the classical way, at least IMO.

 

Don't be afraid of lesson 38...push through it and you'll be fine.

[Mama Lynx]

I don't know how it is taught in FLL, but in Michael Clay Thompson's program, he uses an equals sign to replace the linking verb to show the relationship.

 

The boat is blue. / the boat = blue

The clown seemed sad. / the clown = sad

The thief was Rick. / the thief = Rick

 

In early levels he doesn't differentiate between predicate nominatives and predicate adjectives, instead calling them both Subject Complements (but he notes that they can be nouns or adjectives). Because it's a SUBJECT complement, the form is subjective, not objective.

 

Classical Writing uses the equals sign, and the term "subject complement" too. The equals sign makes it so much clearer to the kids!

[Jenn Robinson]

Ladies- thank you so much for your responses!!!! This forum is such a blessing! :grouphug:

 

flockofsillies, I appreciate your long response. I agree that I don't want her to learn to give up on challenging things 100%! I also don't want her to feel like she has to rush through something frustrating because she needs to "keep up". I always felt like I was just trying to "keep up" in school and never really got to LEARN.

 

After looking at all of your advise I think that b/c I already have R&S 3 I will take a week or 2 and review what she knows while WE;) memorize the definitions of what we don't know and then move ahead! We don't have to be done with the book by the end of the public school schedule so I think we'll just slow it down but still push forward!

 

I think we are both getting a great classical education!:001_smile: Thank you all so much!!!!

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

It's totally normal to wonder whether it's really necessary to know something, when you've managed to make it this far into adulthood without ever having learned it yourself. It's awfully tempting to just avoid teaching through your weak spots. For me, those spots include science (especially physics), geometry, and math beyond Algebra II. I'm planning to outsource proofs to dh! :lol:

 

I want to caution you (and other moms who've asked this same question) not to skip teaching the stuff that's hard for you. Here's why:

 

1.) I don't know about you, but one of the reasons I homeschool is to give my dc a better education than the one I received. No way am I skipping physics with my kids!

 

2.) You have the chance as an adult to get "the classical education you never had", to quote TWEM. Just last week I learned that the "roly-poly" is a crustacean. (Thank you, God's Design for Life!) And I can't even count the number of things I've learned from SOTW as an adult.

 

3.) This one's a toughie: what kind of lesson are you teaching your kids about handling the hard parts of life? Does it foster a love for learning in your kids if they see you seeking the easy way out of schoolwork?

 

4.) By avoiding teaching your weak spots, you'll guarantee that they'll also become your kids' weak spots.

 

5.) There are few things in the academic realm that aren't worth knowing. There's so much to learn, and so little time! On the contrary, there are lots of things in the world at large that aren't worth knowing: how to advance through all the levels of Grand Theft Auto, or the pregnancy status of Angelina Jolie... you get the picture.

 

6.) Prodigies are rare. You'll almost never see a great musician who can't read music or who doesn't have a working knowledge of music theory. Usually those prodigies pick it up so easily, it's like breathing to them. Writers are no different. Great writers are not ignorant of grammar. On the contrary, they know grammar intimately, to the point where it is intuitive, effortless. That comes from practice, practice, practice.

 

7.) It's usually wise to consult experts for topics in which we are not experts ourselves. Isn't that why we buy curriculum in the first place? If Jessie Wise, Exalted Mother of the Overmind, thinks it's both necessary and possible to teach predicate nominatives to 8yo's, I'm going to take her opinion pretty seriously. Ditto for the writers of all GOOD curricula. Guess what? The writers of R&S think predicate nominatives are important, too.

 

To answer your actual question... :D We switched to FLL3 last year, after flaming out with R&S. The sequence of the diagramming lessons in R&S(compound subjects and predicates early on), combined with the need for my slowpoke dd to draw every. single. diagram!, produced a disaster for us. We lost nearly a whole year of grammar progress because of it, and we're still recovering from it, even now.

 

I think you should forge ahead with FLL3. Predicate nominatives will definitely be covered later in the book, and also in FLL4. If you've gotten this far with FLL3, you've undoubtedly noticed that there's lots and lots of review. It will click eventually for your dd, most likely when she's able to contrast predicate nominatives with direct objects.

 

It's totally normal for kids to hit roadblocks in their learning. That's not a curriculum problem, necessarily. Most of the time it's just a function of how our brains develop -- in fits and spurts. Part of the beauty of homeschooling is that you have the opportunity to ensure that those roadblocks don't produce permanent gaps in your child's education.

 

HTH!

 

Oh, what an excellent post! Very well thought-out and articulated. Thank you and :iagree::001_smile:

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

Thanks for your post.....

 

We, too, are using FLL with a 3rd grader. I was surprised with the predicate nominative/predicate adjective/direct object at this age. And, to be honest, I'll probably do something different next year because this (plus all the diagramming) does seem like a lot.

 

But, I just kept plugging along and we're on lesson 50. And as much as ds dreads this, he's learning a lot, and is actually quite good at the diagramming (which is REALLY dreads!) So maybe there's something to it.

 

Hang in there....this is reviewed in later lessons, so maybe if you're stuck keep going and the light bulb might go off next time.

 

-Mrs. F

[unsinkable]

It's totally normal to wonder whether it's really necessary to know something, when you've managed to make it this far into adulthood without ever having learned it yourself. It's awfully tempting to just avoid teaching through your weak spots. For me, those spots include science (especially physics), geometry, and math beyond Algebra II. I'm planning to outsource proofs to dh! :lol:

 

I want to caution you (and other moms who've asked this same question) not to skip teaching the stuff that's hard for you. Here's why:

 

1.) I don't know about you, but one of the reasons I homeschool is to give my dc a better education than the one I received. No way am I skipping physics with my kids!

 

2.) You have the chance as an adult to get "the classical education you never had", to quote TWEM. Just last week I learned that the "roly-poly" is a crustacean. (Thank you, God's Design for Life!) And I can't even count the number of things I've learned from SOTW as an adult.

 

3.) This one's a toughie: what kind of lesson are you teaching your kids about handling the hard parts of life? Does it foster a love for learning in your kids if they see you seeking the easy way out of schoolwork?

 

4.) By avoiding teaching your weak spots, you'll guarantee that they'll also become your kids' weak spots.

 

5.) There are few things in the academic realm that aren't worth knowing. There's so much to learn, and so little time! On the contrary, there are lots of things in the world at large that aren't worth knowing: how to advance through all the levels of Grand Theft Auto, or the pregnancy status of Angelina Jolie... you get the picture.

 

6.) Prodigies are rare. You'll almost never see a great musician who can't read music or who doesn't have a working knowledge of music theory. Usually those prodigies pick it up so easily, it's like breathing to them. Writers are no different. Great writers are not ignorant of grammar. On the contrary, they know grammar intimately, to the point where it is intuitive, effortless. That comes from practice, practice, practice.

 

7.) It's usually wise to consult experts for topics in which we are not experts ourselves. Isn't that why we buy curriculum in the first place? If Jessie Wise, Exalted Mother of the Overmind, thinks it's both necessary and possible to teach predicate nominatives to 8yo's, I'm going to take her opinion pretty seriously. Ditto for the writers of all GOOD curricula. Guess what? The writers of R&S think predicate nominatives are important, too.

 

To answer your actual question... :D We switched to FLL3 last year, after flaming out with R&S. The sequence of the diagramming lessons in R&S(compound subjects and predicates early on), combined with the need for my slowpoke dd to draw every. single. diagram!, produced a disaster for us. We lost nearly a whole year of grammar progress because of it, and we're still recovering from it, even now.

 

I think you should forge ahead with FLL3. Predicate nominatives will definitely be covered later in the book, and also in FLL4. If you've gotten this far with FLL3, you've undoubtedly noticed that there's lots and lots of review. It will click eventually for your dd, most likely when she's able to contrast predicate nominatives with direct objects.

 

It's totally normal for kids to hit roadblocks in their learning. That's not a curriculum problem, necessarily. Most of the time it's just a function of how our brains develop -- in fits and spurts. Part of the beauty of homeschooling is that you have the opportunity to ensure that those roadblocks don't produce permanent gaps in your child's education.

 

HTH!

 

 

WTM Hall of Fame post! Beautifully put.