Staci in FL Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I'm trying to decide between IEW and CW for my fourth grader. And I'd like to hear from anyone who has gotten far into the CW program to see the results of it. Do you think it was the right decision? Do you think it would have been beneficial to also do some IEW writing based on history studies? I've been struggling with this decision for months. I'm leaning toward CW, only because she is stronger in language arts and just don't see her with heavy science or math in her future, for which IEW is good (as I understand it). However, she is not a strong student. Schoolwork for her can be a struggle...she simply doesn't like it! She memorizes incredibly well if she hears something, and I think she is a fairly good creative writer. I'd appreciate any help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie in AR Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I'm trying to decide between IEW and CW for my fourth grader. And I'd like to hear from anyone who has gotten far into the CW program to see the results of it. Do you think it was the right decision? Do you think it would have been beneficial to also do some IEW writing based on history studies? I've been struggling with this decision for months. I'm leaning toward CW, only because she is stronger in language arts and just don't see her with heavy science or math in her future, for which IEW is good (as I understand it). However, she is not a strong student. Schoolwork for her can be a struggle...she simply doesn't like it! She memorizes incredibly well if she hears something, and I think she is a fairly good creative writer. I'd appreciate any help! The entire CW series hasn't yet been completed so you won't find anyone who has gone all the way through the program. This past August, the Chreia materials were released in final form. Herodotus is being tested right now in its beta form, and (I think) is to be released in final form this coming fall. So the program is still a work in progress. We have only ever used the CW materials for writing. (I've looked through the IEW materials, and knew immediately they wouldn't be a good fit for our family, but I've never actually used them.) I have two boys about to begin Chreia, a dd who should finish Homer by the end of this school year, and another dd who will begin Aesop in the fall. I am incredibly pleased with the approach that CW utilizes. IMO, it adequately prepares a student for all levels of academic writing. The techniques learned in Aesop and Homer in the elementary years can be applied to other areas across the curriculum, so there is no need for another writing curriculum in that regard. My plan is to utilize CW all the way through high school for our family. If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to try to answer them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 I'm trying to decide between IEW and CW for my fourth grader. And I'd like to hear from anyone who has gotten far into the CW program to see the results of it. We used IEW and other programs/tutors before attempting CW. I wish we had started w/ CW a year ago. It is rich -- and intense. We will incorporate "dress-ups" in CW because they are familiar and almost second nature for my dc. Mr. Pudewa is wonderful and his program is excellent. I am finding that CW is causing my kids to "think" more and grapple w/ language in a different way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Jackie- Thanks for your response and the explanation about the entire program not being completed yet. Two questions: Can you explain why you think IEW wasn't "a good fit" for your family? Do you think that CW prepares older kids to write expository essays for non-fiction related subjects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Beth- Do you think that the knowing how to do the dress ups is important? Would your kids have learned the equivalent from just going through CW? Staci P.S. Your family is beautiful! I have a daughter from China as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 One more question for both of you.... With CW being "intense", do you think it is too intense for an average-ability level student? It is really meant to be used with above-average ability level kids? Thanks again for the help- Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Beth- Do you think that the knowing how to do the dress ups is important? Would your kids have learned the equivalent from just going through CW? Dress ups can be learned quickly by students. Could you borrow the TWSS from someone locally? Staci P.S. Your family is beautiful! I have a daughter from China as well! OMG'sh! How wonderful! Where is she from. My girls are both from Hunan Province. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 One more question for both of you.... With CW being "intense", do you think it is too intense for an average-ability level student? It is really meant to be used with above-average ability level kids? Thanks again for the help- Staci CW is great for any type of student. It's Mom that needs to fairly organized and willing to put the time to teach it. I am still adjusting to this new paradigm :). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Staci, have you considered WT2? It would cater to her creative side and leads nicely into CW Homer. It also just happens to cover sentence beginnings and whatnot similar to IEW, giving you the best of both worlds. It's crazy fun and easy to teach too. :) We did WT2 last year, and this year I'm taking a break doing Wordsmith Apprentice because of the baby. I have CW Homer and we'll begin it sooner or later. I'm probably going to wait a bit, just so I can feel confident about requiring her to retell the entire story, rather than just part. I don't think you'll have any problem going from WT2 to Homer, and she's old enough to go directly into WT2 without doing WT1. WT doesn't have them diagram, but maybe you're already doing that in your current grammar? We're doing Shurley, which doesn't diagram, so I just have her diagram with me one of the three sentences we parse each day. It's easy, quick, and enough to get her ready for Homer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Beth- I'm glad to hear that you think any ability child can do CW. And regarding the teacher prep...sigh...five year into this little homeschooling adventure I'm finding that for the most part, if it is going to be taught well, the teacher has to prepare well. Sigh. Sigh. The laundry will just have to wait!!!! :-) My daughter was born in Yulin. We were there in summer of 2004...I guessing that you were there around the same time? My other three are from Kazakhstan, Guatemala and Vietnam. Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in FL Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Elizabeth- We are working through WT2 now. She does well with it, which is why I think she belongs in the "creative" category (not to mention that she'd rather pretend to be someone other than who she is all the live long day). I'm just having SUCH a hard time figuring out where to go next. Thanks for the input! Hope that beautiful baby boy is doing well! Staci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Lynx Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Staci, I am using CW with my very reluctant writer. We are very happy with it. It's tough, yes, but he can do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Staci, well how did I forget that! :) Well then you're good to go into CW Homer, no problem. Or if you want something totally different, look at Wordsmith Apprentice. IEW is fine, but it's a bit redundant after WT2, unless you do just the non-fiction assignments. (That's from my looking at it, not using it.) I have CW Homer and have poured over it. I like it a lot and it's straightforward to implement. I bought it recently, trying to decide if we would finish out WA or jump into Homer. Homer is easier for me to teach, as WA is set up to use independently. WA is a really interesting critter though. It's written to the student and has a lot of humor and whit. My dd actually likes it, which is saying something. The assignments however vary in level. Sometimes they're super easy, and sometimes they push her out of her gourd. Like yesterday she was supposed to write captions for pictures. They didn't have enough explanation about how a caption ought to be structured (short sentences, etc.), so she got all lost in these long sentences, quotations, blah blah. It was really pathetic, lol. And then she muddled herself in the drawings of the pictures, unable to decide if the ribbon actually broke in the race (they show it straining), or whether it was a bungee cord, hehe. Crazy! But the virtue of WA, besides it's short assignments (a plus for us this year!), is that by the end of the text you've covered through paragraphing and multi-paragraph essays quite nicely. It builds so calmly, so gently, I think an average ability 5th grader could do it themselves, no problem. If you want a pause year or even a pause summer that's easy on you but will accomplish something, it's worth considering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Beth- I'm glad to hear that you think any ability child can do CW. And regarding the teacher prep...sigh...five year into this little homeschooling adventure I'm finding that for the most part, if it is going to be taught well, the teacher has to prepare well. Sigh. Sigh. The laundry will just have to wait!!!! :-) My daughter was born in Yulin. We were there in summer of 2004...I guessing that you were there around the same time? My other three are from Kazakhstan, Guatemala and Vietnam. Staci Wow! Four adoptions! How blessed you are!! I will do WT with my little girls before CW next time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie in AR Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Jackie- Do you think that CW prepares older kids to write expository essays for non-fiction related subjects? Yes, I think the Diogenes materials (Maxim and Chreia) brilliantly lead a student through the steps of building an expository essay. Maxim is beginning essay writing, and starts with amplifying maxims (or proverbs) using the format of the ancient maxim essay. Students begin with the maxim of an Aesop fable, something with which they are already very familiar. There are nine steps in the outline for Maxim (and Chreia), and students spend time focusing on each step (paragraph). Unit 5 describes how to use the paragraphs learned in the ancient maxim essay format to write the modern academic five paragraph essay (i.e., which paragraphs of the ancient essay go into which paragraphs of the modern essay). There are several lessons on crafting a thesis statement, and introduction to the style requirements of modern academic writing. Along the way, there is a continuation from Homer of grammar and vocabulary analysis. There is also imitation and beginning literary analysis of ancient and more modern (Benjamin Franklin, Shakespeare, etc.) writings. By the end of Unit 4, students are choosing their own maxims or proverbs to amplify, and in Unit 5 they are writing from essay prompts such as "Is it wise to be humble?" and "Is it wise to show kindness to someone in need?" Chreia teaches the difference between maxims and chreiai, and introduces formal development of each type of paragraph learned in Maxim. It continues the grammar, vocabulary analysis, imitation, and literary analysis found in Maxim. There is further work in crafting and polishing thesis statements. Unit 5 instructs in creating both chreiai and maxims from a narrative, and discusses arrangement of an essay. By the end of Chreia, the example essay prompts include "How did we get the modern calendar?" and "How did the Protestant Reformation affect Northern Europe?" I hope that gives you a feel for the specifics of the expository writing teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie in AR Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 CW is great for any type of student. It's Mom that needs to fairly organized and willing to put the time to teach it. I am still adjusting to this new paradigm :). Staci, I completely agree with Beth here. CW can work with any type of student. It is a program that utilizes full participation of the teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Jackie, Thank you for this great write-up of CW Diogenes. After 2 years of Homer, I can't wait to begin Maxim next year. Take care, Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelly in IL Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajun.classical Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 thanks. Writing Tales; it's another progymnasmata program. So far, levels 1 and 2 are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajun.classical Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Yes, I think the Diogenes materials (Maxim and Chreia) brilliantly lead a student through the steps of building an expository essay. Maxim is beginning essay writing, and starts with amplifying maxims (or proverbs) using the format of the ancient maxim essay. Students begin with the maxim of an Aesop fable, something with which they are already very familiar. There are nine steps in the outline for Maxim (and Chreia), and students spend time focusing on each step (paragraph). Unit 5 describes how to use the paragraphs learned in the ancient maxim essay format to write the modern academic five paragraph essay (i.e., which paragraphs of the ancient essay go into which paragraphs of the modern essay). There are several lessons on crafting a thesis statement, and introduction to the style requirements of modern academic writing. Along the way, there is a continuation from Homer of grammar and vocabulary analysis. There is also imitation and beginning literary analysis of ancient and more modern (Benjamin Franklin, Shakespeare, etc.) writings. By the end of Unit 4, students are choosing their own maxims or proverbs to amplify, and in Unit 5 they are writing from essay prompts such as "Is it wise to be humble?" and "Is it wise to show kindness to someone in need?" Chreia teaches the difference between maxims and chreiai, and introduces formal development of each type of paragraph learned in Maxim. It continues the grammar, vocabulary analysis, imitation, and literary analysis found in Maxim. There is further work in crafting and polishing thesis statements. Unit 5 instructs in creating both chreiai and maxims from a narrative, and discusses arrangement of an essay. By the end of Chreia, the example essay prompts include "How did we get the modern calendar?" and "How did the Protestant Reformation affect Northern Europe?" I hope that gives you a feel for the specifics of the expository writing teachings. Great review, thanks. I can't wait to start Diogenes: Maxim in the Fall. I've been going through the core and pumping myself up :D Your description of Chreia sounds great too. I really think in a few years when we can see students having completed more of the upper levels of CW, we won't have so many questions about how well CW will prepare a student. If Chreia can produce an 8th grader who can write an effective essay on the effects of the Protestant Reformation, then that student will be far above most high school seniors. And almost none of my college freshman could write a thesis statement. I'm getting so excited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Staci, I completely agree with Beth here. CW can work with any type of student. It is a program that utilizes full participation of the teacher. :iagree: We started CW Aesop B with my son this year. He is mildly dyslexic, a reluctant writer and this was our first writing program. He has done wonderfully. The skills levels outlined truly allow you to mold this program to your child's needs. I am totally sold on the program and plan to use the entire series. I also enjoy the depth of the material for the teacher in the core book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie in AR Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 If Chreia can produce an 8th grader who can write an effective essay on the effects of the Protestant Reformation, then that student will be far above most high school seniors. This reminds me of something. Here's a quote from the Preface to the Chreia Student Guide: When your student is planning a writing project, please sit down and brainstorm with him as he plans the paragraphs for his essay. These are challenging assignments, so don't be afraid to give your student lots of help, ideas, and guidance as he plans and writes. It is far more important at this stage that your student learns to write with clarity and substance than it is that his ideas be "original". It was very helpful for me to read that and realize that it is OK for me to help my dc generate ideas for their writings; their job right now is to learn how to effectively communicate those ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in Central TX Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 It was very helpful for me to read that and realize that it is OK for me to help my dc generate ideas for their writings; their job right now is to learn how to effectively communicate those ideas. I've been taking this approach with my 7th grader this year as we tackle a modified Omnibus I schedule. Before I have him write his essay or paragraph, I talk to him about what to write; especially for those very open-ended questions like 'How should we respond to change?' Once we've talked about a good response to the question, I have him make a rough outline, and then write his paragraph or essay. When he knows "what" to write about, he does of much better job in his written assignment. I thought I was cheating a bit by going this route, but I'm relieved to know that CW recommends this brainstorming process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cajun.classical Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I thought I was cheating a bit by going this route, but I'm relieved to know that CW recommends this brainstorming process. :iagree: THis is definitely NOT cheating. In my experience as a writing teacher, I've learned that WHAT to say and HOW to say it are two very different skills. I think it's quite beneficial to treat them as two separate skills/assignments. Even allowing for mastery (or at least getting a good grip on the skill) of the form of the essay BEFORE tackling content. Otherwise it is horribly overwhelming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 :iagree: THis is definitely NOT cheating. In my experience as a writing teacher, I've learned that WHAT to say and HOW to say it are two very different skills. That is what led me to CW after trying multiple programs/tutors. I have asked my son to write 5 para essay after 5 para essay. He gets so caught up in "getting the facts straight" that he's by-passed the actual skills of writing. Jackie and gang, thanks for confirming it's ok to help w/ the outlines. In Homer OB, I'm offering dd lots of hints in terms of noun/verb substitutions. Kathy Weitz said it's fine to think in terms of IEW dress-ups. That's a relief. I love the fact that CW has students write from models. Imitating the best writers makes so much sense! Why re-invent the wheel? Rambling to self now....(not. enough. coffee.):) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I'm not familiar with this term "dress-ups". Does anyone mind to explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I'm not familiar with this term "dress-ups". Does anyone mind to explain? IEW uses the term dress-ups to teach students to make their writing more interesting and enjoyable to read. They are stylistic techniques. CW refers to it as copia (CW devotees, please correct me if wrong). 1. Strong Verbs 2. Quality Adjectives 3. -ly word (Adverb) Are you more confused now? Sorry!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I see. Do you mean like having the kids use a thesaurus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I see. Do you mean like having the kids use a thesaurus? Yes! CW & IEW both encourage this. Both my kids have built-in thesauruses in their computers, which is nice. IEW gives a nice list of dress-ups. I think the list is on the IEW yahoo group website. As for CW, it also encourages varying your "utterances" (instead of just using the word "said" continuously). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.