Education vouchers - at what freedom expense?

[JWSJ]

My previous thought of education vouchers (since we HS) was positive. Recently, while talking with some friends the question came up of would I support/take an education voucher (as in a tax credit) if it required that the state could dictate part of our curriculum/education goals.

 

An education voucher with strings attached seems a lot less attractive. Unfortunately, I heard that some politicians view this as a way to gain support from both HSers and those that think HSing should be roped in to some requirements of the state's standards.

 

Would you take an education voucher with strings attached?

[chai]

If the strings were minor, I might consider it, but no way would I let the government dictate my curricula choices.

 

Really, most of us are willing to give up an extra income and are spending money out of our pocket for education, so why would anyone think that a minor tax credit would convince us to give up our rights?

[Sandy in Indy]

No, I wouldn't take them if there were strings attached. One of the reasons I homeschool is so that *I* (or my dh) can choose what it is they learn rather than the state. In fact, there's a bill in the IN senate right now that concerns me for this reason...it would require licensed teachers in public, private and homeschools to teach a view that is not at all a belief that I hold. (How this would be enforced I have no idea.) If I wanted the choices to be taken out of my hands, I'd enroll them in public school.

[Renee in NC]

Depends on the strings.

[Peek a Boo]

If the "strings" were that i provide the social security number of my kids [like we do for any other tax credit] and check a box that says "my children are not enrolled in any public school" [which is verifiable] then yeah, i could do that ;)

 

But if it was anything beyond that, then no. I think an education tax credit should be available to ANY parent that doesn't have their children involved in the public school-- even parents using private schools. We are providing a service that the state has a compelling interest in [per the Supreme Court] and as such should be considered for support. Now if the Supreme Court wants to come along and say that states do NOT have a compelling interest in the education of its citizens, then I might change my tune on this, lol.

[Ellie]

There will be strings attached. There will *always* be strings attached. No thanks.

[Colleen]

An education voucher with strings attached seems a lot less attractive.

 

Did you think education vouchers would be offered with no strings attached? What did you think would be the basis for offering such vouchers?

[Peek a Boo]

actually, i think an education tax deduction can be offered as easily as a child tax deduction.

 

currently, if you have a child, you get a deduction --period.

 

If you are providing for your child's education so the state doesn't have to, you should get a deduction --period. they don't ask if we are feeding our kids correctly, or ask for receipts for clothing and food. Getting a deduction doesn't necessarily mean strings are or will be mandatory.

 

i think it would be ridiculously easy to institute an education deduction. It probably wouldn't be as much as some parents spend on education, and would be MORE than others spend on homeschooling, but that's the case w/ the dependent tax deduction too :-)

[mcconnellboys]

What sort of dictates are we talking about? Our state already requires that we cover certain subjects, though there seems no particular rhyme or reason for what they mandate. They also mandate that we keep "attendance records", which also seems preposterous. Either the work gets done or it doesn't, who cares when it gets done?

 

Someone in another thread just told me that their state requires that 40% of their school take place in the "listed place of the homeschool", or some such. Huh? So can we list our car? What on earth does it matter *where* we do our work? Is the kitchen table acceptable, or must we have a desk? LOL, state requirements seem to be ludicrous and unenforcable.

 

Some states require that portfolios be kept, that yearly conferences be held, that yearly testing be done. I'd be okay with any of that. It *would* help keep more people properly accountable. If you're doing what you're supposed to be doing then I can't see, in general, how this would hurt anyway. And if you have a student who requires an exception to these types of things, that could easily be accounted for, too, through letters from doctors, therapists, etc. And, hey, if the state pays for and administers the testing, that would be less work for me, anyway!

 

It might actually make it easier for all homeschoolers, nationwide, if we had ONE set of rules instead of fifty (or more, if counties differ, too). It would make it easier to challenge anything with which we disagreed, too......

 

Regena

[Peek a Boo]

oh, Regena!!!

 

I do NOT want homeschool-friendly states like Texas becoming federalized and taking on restrictions :-)

 

If there's any voucher/deduction/credit to be offered, i want it to be OPTIONAL. I am sooo not a gvt gal, hee hee.

[JWSJ]

i think it would be ridiculously easy to institute an education deduction.

 

I thought so too. But, when I've asked PS parents they almost always say no, they'd never support an education deduction. In their view, HSing was my (our) choice and I (we) should pay for it. It doesn't seem to register to them that we're paying double for other's children to go to public school too as well as HSing our own. They view the "credit" as taking money away from their child's education.

[Peek a Boo]

In their view, HSing was my (our) choice and I (we) should pay for it. It doesn't seem to register to them that we're paying double for other's children to go to public school too as well as HSing our own. They view the "credit" as taking money away from their child's education.

 

you're right, and that's the thing --no money is *deducted* from the PS account when my children don't attend. i think that would be easy enough to combat factually in a drive to institute something like this. But i do understand that some things are NOT about facts, lol.

 

But considering we already take deductions w/o strings, i think it is *possible* to institute another one w/o strings :D Would it happen? Not w/ the NEA lobby, lol.

[Colleen]

actually, i think an education tax deduction can be offered as easily as a child tax deduction

 

I don't support the child tax deduction.

 

If you are providing for your child's education so the state doesn't have to, you should get a deduction.

 

I disagree. The state does not owe me anything because I choose to homeschool. They do owe me the opportunity to take advantage of the public schools which I support through my taxes. That's the case here in WA and it should be the same across the board, imo.

[mcconnellboys]

What requirements does Texas have now? Do you think they will differ greatly if federalized? I tend to think that they'll have to look at what the most states have now and make some sort of middle of the road requirements that most of us think we can live with, so as not to get all us cranky hser's up in arms, LOL ('cause we can lobby 'em to death)....

 

Regena

[Peek a Boo]

TX basically has NO requirements: you don't have to report to anyone. you don't have to sign in anywhere. you don't have to register.

 

IF someone asks you [Truancy investigation, removing students from school, etc], all you need to do is give 'em a piece of paper that says you are teaching reading, writing, arithmetic, spelling, and good citizenship and doing so in a bona fide manner. [no science??:eek:] they can't ask for a list of materials, attendance records, student samples, teacher lesson book, or portfolio.

 

HA!

 

and if you go "middle of the road" then you betcha that would change!!

 

edited to add: and NO testing!!!

[Peek a Boo]

I actually agree with you Colleen on those issues. ideally, i'd love to see the entire tax system overhauled. But if they're not gonna do it, then I would absolutely take advantage of a credit if it was offered. And I can see how the credit could be included in the current system w/ few rational hurdles :-) The state may not owe you anything, but you are still doing something that the state requires --educating a child. And you are saving THEM a passel of money doing it.

 

edited: i would absolutely take advantage of a credit *if it was offered as i detailed above* :)

[mcconnellboys]

That sounds like here. No science here, either. I'm guessing that's to avoid the entire argument about what to teach for science..... We do have to send in a very general letter each year, such as the one you mentioned having to show if asked.

 

So tell me why we don't want any requirements at all, even if they're reasonable ones? Do you think those would end up being too cumbersome? Would they keep trying to add to them or revise them and cause confusion?

 

Or is it that we just want to be FREE, free to fly like birds, free of all governmental association, LOL....??? I don't know, I'd sure like to get some of my tax money back. We could take educational trips using that money......REAL trips, to faraway destinations.....

 

Regena

[Peek a Boo]

mostly, I want to be *free* :)

 

i was reading a quote a while back: if you aren't free to fail completely, then you're not completely free.

if you want the strings that come w/ a well-equipped fancy bird cage, that's great ..... but i want the option to not participate :-)

 

I do think that it is much more likely to see an increase in gvt regulations than a reduction.

So I'm gonna start w/ ZERO and make them fight harder for regulation :D

[mcconnellboys]

Yeah, I guess that's the safest route, given past performance of our government.....

 

R

[Brigitte]

Yes, but there a lots of people with no children who are paying the same taxes (real estate, personal property, etc.) and get no "benefit." Those people are not getting the "benefit" of children being in the public schools, nor are they getting the "benefit" of a tax credit.

[Peek a Boo]

that is true Brigitte. but you get a child credit because you are caring for a child --you would get an education credit because you are shouldering the educational expense for that child. public school parents and anyone else not actively shouldering the expense of educating a child wouldn't be eligible for the credit [which is why PS parents and teh NEA would be against this]. It wouldn't be a property tax credit --it would be an education credit. There are plenty of tax credits that aren't eligible to every person.

 

linda- I agree with that too!

[Amy loves Bud]

I voted no even though I would likely support such a system, but not take the voucher with its associated strings for our family. I believe that educational choice is a very good thing, which is why I would support it and is a big part of the reason I recently signed a petition for a new charter school in our area. But for our family, I would rather stay independent of the government and its requirements in this area.

[Colleen]

you would get an education credit because you are shouldering the educational expense for that child. public school parents and anyone else not actively shouldering the expense of educating a child wouldn't be eligible for the credit

 

Public school parents shoulder many expenses that I avoid by having my children at home. It's too simplistic to assume one's own burden is heavier than that of one's neighbor.

[Colleen]

I would absolutely take advantage of a credit if it was offered.

 

Oh, I have no doubt that volumes of homeschoolers who insist that "the government" should mind their own business would line up to take money from that same Uncle Sam. I find it sadly ironic.

[Lisa in SC]

I want no part of a voucher system that will potentially open the door to more and more government interference/control.

 

Lisa

[Audrey]

 

Would you take an education voucher with strings attached?

 

It would depend on the strings attached. I'm not sure where my limits are on the issue. I think I'd have to see a real proposal and consider that on its own merits.

 

As it is, I don't think we'll get that in my province. Other provinces have programs where you can get up to a certain amount of $$ of your curriculum paid for, but you have to use a certain list of curriculum and you have quite a lot of reporting, and other submissive hoops to jump through to get it.

 

My province is very, very simple. We file a yearly intent to homeschool where we list what we're going to use/do for the year; a mid-way report of where we're at then; and, a year-end report of what we accomplished. Each report is about a half page long (a page if you include that box that asks for your student's name and age, and your name and address). I'm not too sure I want to give up what we've got and trade it for Alberta's or BC's regulations. Please don't take that the wrong way my AB & BC friends! :) I'm not denigrating homeschooling there. It works great for a lot of people and I know there are some great pluses to those systems, too.

[Audrey]

 

I think an education tax credit should be available to ANY parent that doesn't have their children involved in the public school-- even parents using private schools. We are providing a service that the state has a compelling interest in [per the Supreme Court] and as such should be considered for support.

 

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I think I'd agree about any parent not using public schools should get the credit. I think I'd even extend that to any PERSON not using the public school system.

 

I know I hear plenty of people complain about paying such high school taxes when they don't even have kids in school. This could be anyone! I'm frankly quite sick of the way that school divisions can crank up the taxes willy-nilly every year and get away with it. :mad: I think they spend way too much on their bloated administration and unions and far too little on the actual education of children.

 

I feel a raving rant coming on, so I'll stop there.

[Peek a Boo]

Oh, I have no doubt that volumes of homeschoolers who insist that "the government" should mind their own business would line up to take money from that same Uncle Sam. I find it sadly ironic.

 

 

except there are two different things being addressed here:

 

1. Should there be an educational credit, and

 

2. If there *is* one, would you use it?

 

My response to #1 is no.

But if there was one, I am pointing out how it is feasible under our current tax system. just as I claim my children as valid dependents and take my tax credits, I would also claim an educational tax credit if it met these specifications.

 

Just cuz i think the gvt should mind its own business doesn't mean i won't avail myself of possible tax credits. Do you not claim your children as dependents so that you aren't taking more money from Uncle Sam? Do you not take business tax credits? I guess a lot depends on whether you think it was Uncle Sam's to begin with.

 

"Public school parents shoulder many expenses that I avoid by having my children at home."

 

What expenses for *education* are carried by public school parents? This isn't about who's more 'worthy', but who is doing a specific task: providing the financial means for a child's education. In a public school, the teachers do that. There are plenty of parents who spend money on lots of different things --and we call ALL of them "educational". But there is a difference between core education and supplemental stuff.

[Audrey]

 

Public school parents shoulder many expenses that I avoid by having my children at home. It's too simplistic to assume one's own burden is heavier than that of one's neighbor.

 

 

Good point. I'm grateful for not having to buy the "required minimum" amount of whatever cr*pola the school kids are selling. I know they get pressured to sell a certain amount and the parents end up buying it just to keep their kid out of "trouble." :rolleyes: I've often heard ps parents say they'd rather just write out one big cheque at the beginning of the school year than go through the endless "fundraisers." But then I think, "Gee, didn't you already write a big cheque for your taxes? More than half of that is probably school taxes. What the heck are they doing with that?"

[Volty]

I was going to vote "maybe, depends" but decided **** the torpedoes and just voted yes.

 

I'm a fan of standardized testing, I loathe creationism, I vaccinate, both my dw and I have bachelors degrees, Unschooling scares me. The only thing I know I'd hate is the forms. I don't know what tricks and strings they'd throw my way but it'd probably be worth the effort. If a penny saved is a penny earned, then this is free money.

[Mrs Mungo]

I thought so too. But, when I've asked PS parents they almost always say no, they'd never support an education deduction. In their view, HSing was my (our) choice and I (we) should pay for it. It doesn't seem to register to them that we're paying double for other's children to go to public school too as well as HSing our own. They view the "credit" as taking money away from their child's education.

 

You aren't paying double. You're paying to support the local school system and paying to educate your own children. People who don't have kids *at all* pay into the system, why shouldn't people who choose not to put their kids in the system?

 

Speaking generally to the thread-most states probably don't require science because a lot of schools don't teach science anymore, especially daily.

 

As far as public school parents carrying part of the burden for expenses, this is certainly true. School supplies have been expanded to include soap and all sorts of things. Never mind the fundraising pressure and such, ugh.

 

I voted no because I don't want to give the federal government any excuse to look into how I educate my children. I'm vehemently against it.

[Peek a Boo]

You aren't paying double. You're paying to support the local school system and paying to educate your own children. People who don't have kids *at all* pay into the system, why shouldn't people who choose not to put their kids in the system?

 

because it wouldn't be a credit based on what you've *paid* --like the child credit, it's a credit for what you *do*. Educating a child is mandated, it is not a choice. We are free to make the choice in how to do it, but there is still the side of the coin that says the education itself MUST be done and Will cost the state money if we don't do it ourselves. We are literally saving the gvt $$$ when we do the job for them. Public School parents are using the system. We are not. People who support the local schools but don't have kids and don't teach would simply not be eligible.

 

If taking a tax credit gives them authority to dictate or look into the education, then I wouldn't take it either. They haven't come knocking on my door to look into my parenting in all the years I've taken the child tax credit tho :)