Man charged with murder in daughter's death

[unsinkable]

It is a well known tactic of abusers to send their improperly dressed targets (spouse, children) out in the elements to punish/hurt them.

[unsinkable]

I remember a family event where an 80 year old with a history of cancer developed a fever of 105 and was bleary--very ill indeed! And no one would call a doctor, because she didn't want to go to the doctor and ruin the party. They were respecting her as best as they could.

 

Of course, when I got there I couldn't stand that, and so I called my own doctor to ask whether these symptoms were safe to wait with, given her age and condition. He told me to take her to the emergency room, stat. On receiving that information, her DH stepped in and asked her to agree to go, and she did.

 

But although I disagree with the collective judgment of those who stood around unable to take action, I do respect their motives.

 

Not so in the case of this tragedy, though.

 

OK, this is quite tangential but here it goes...

 

My dd has epilepsy and had a seizure at a family reunion. My dh told me to call 911. When the paramedics got there, she was still seizing so they scooped & ran & let me ride in the back of the ambulance with her. There was literally no time to think.

 

I found out later that my mother-in-law was telling everyone there was nothing wrong with my dd, that she did it to herself by getting so excited (the kids were playing tag on a playground) and that I called 911 for attention.

 

Some people are so judgemental/irrational when others are sick/ill/hurt that the sick/ill/hurt person doesn't want to call attention to herself.

 

IME

[lionfamily1999]

True.

Arg, I can't find the one I wanted to quote, but something just sort of occurred to me. The article said the roads were impassable, covered in snow drifts. Imagine, Mom wants kids for Christmas, maybe it's even in the custody agreement. Dad does not want to drive in that weather. Finally concedes with the condition that Mom meets him halfway (knowing the roads were impassable). Mom says she doesn't have a car, Dad says figure it out yourself.

 

Sounds perfectly plausable, and like something niether party would want to openly say. Mom, because some guilt would be shoveled in her lap; Dad, because it was obvious Mom could not get there.

 

What do ya think?

 

Sorry, every once in awhile I have a wee lightening storm in the brain. :tongue_smilie:

[LaxMom]

Arg, I can't find the one I wanted to quote, but something just sort of occurred to me. The article said the roads were impassable, covered in snow drifts. Imagine, Mom wants kids for Christmas, maybe it's even in the custody agreement. Dad does not want to drive in that weather. Finally concedes with the condition that Mom meets him halfway (knowing the roads were impassable). Mom says she doesn't have a car, Dad says figure it out yourself.

 

Sounds perfectly plausable, and like something niether party would want to openly say. Mom, because some guilt would be shoveled in her lap; Dad, because it was obvious Mom could not get there.

 

What do ya think?

 

Sorry, every once in awhile I have a wee lightening storm in the brain. :tongue_smilie:

 

Yes, but then to say that he doesn't deserve to be prosecuted? I've heard contentious parents say the other should be prosecuted for far less than this... I just can't imagine she would extend that kind of understanding after playing such a game.

 

I'm also wondering what happened to the 5 hours between her calling him and her friend calling 911... Does the mother have a phone? Does she use the "friend"s? Maybe that's where part of the disconnect in communication is. Maybe there is a communication issue with the mother?

...their mother, who was staying next to the West Magic Lodge...

 

I don't even know what that means. Is she, perhaps, an addict? Homeless? Did she indicate that she would have a "friend" drive her to meet the children and doesn't recall or doesn't want it to appear that she dropped the ball? There has to be a reason that he has custody.

 

It seems like this whole tragedy is the culmination of a series of bad decisions on the part of every single person involved. (Note: I am NOT placing or deflecting blame, just observing the report)

They start off with a bad plan (either on the part of one or both of the parents).

Dad and cousin continue the bad plan - driving in really bad weather conditions rather than calling and saying we'll have to wait for the roads to clear.

Dad allows the kids to continue on foot, alone. Apparently, cousin concurs.

Brother and sister separate.

Dad assumes they're safe.

Mom assumes they're safe, though they could hardly have been anywhere near on time at that point.

Nobody calls 911...

 

I mean, if ANY one person had chosen the "other" option at ANY one of those decision points, this would have been a rescue story, or no story at all.

 

I don't think it can be said enough. This is truly tragic. For everyone involved.

[LaxMom]

 

I found out later that my mother-in-law was telling everyone there was nothing wrong with my dd, that she did it to herself by getting so excited (the kids were playing tag on a playground) and that I called 911 for attention.

 

That is appalling. I hope somebody slapped her.

[lionfamily1999]

Yes, but then to say that he doesn't deserve to be prosecuted? I've heard contentious parents say the other should be prosecuted for far less than this... I just can't imagine she would extend that kind of understanding after playing such a game.

 

I'm also wondering what happened to the 5 hours between her calling him and her friend calling 911... Does the mother have a phone? Does she use the "friend"s? Maybe that's where part of the disconnect in communication is. Maybe there is a communication issue with the mother?

I don't even know what that means. Is she, perhaps, an addict? Homeless? Did she indicate that she would have a "friend" drive her to meet the children and doesn't recall or doesn't want it to appear that she dropped the ball? There has to be a reason that he has custody.

 

It seems like this whole tragedy is the culmination of a series of bad decisions on the part of every single person involved. (Note: I am NOT placing or deflecting blame, just observing the report)

They start off with a bad plan (either on the part of one or both of the parents).

Dad and cousin continue the bad plan - driving in really bad weather conditions rather than calling and saying we'll have to wait for the roads to clear.

Dad allows the kids to continue on foot, alone. Apparently, cousin concurs.

Brother and sister separate.

Dad assumes they're safe.

Mom assumes they're safe, though they could hardly have been anywhere near on time at that point.

Nobody calls 911...

 

I mean, if ANY one person had chosen the "other" option at ANY one of those decision points, this would have been a rescue story, or no story at all.

 

I don't think it can be said enough. This is truly tragic. For everyone involved.

I'm not saying he should not face charges at all, just that I don't believe he deserves the level of charges.

 

I agree that even the smallest effert could've changed this situation drastically and that makes it that much more tragic. I couldn't imagine the level of guilt you'd face, having done everything you could after the initial dumb decision of letting the kids walk away. The guilt, knowing that so many things, one after the other, lead to this... it would kill me, I can't imagine the pain they're all going through right now.

[LaxMom]

I'm not saying he should not face charges at all, just that I don't believe he deserves the level of charges.

 

Oh, no, I was talking about the mother's comments. She said she didn't think he deserved to be prosecuted, which seems like that would negate the theory of a contentious trade-off game.

[unsinkable]

That is appalling. I hope somebody slapped her.

 

Actually, no. No one said a word to her. At that time, she was the one who called all the shots in the family and no one questioned her (to her face.)

 

SHe had so many family members convinced that my dd did it to herself and that I called 911 for attention that no one mentioned the incident to us or asked how my dd was doing. We spent hours in the ER, 400 miles from home, got back to the hotel in the middle of the night and in the morning, dh's family acted like nothing happened.

 

DH's brother drove him to the hospital and stayed with us until we begged him to go back to the hotel and get some sleep. He was the only one who seemed to care. And he died a year later...which is a whole other story. But when my dh & I talk about it, the story is now as much (or more) about his brother as it is about our daughter. :sad:

[lionfamily1999]

Oh, no, I was talking about the mother's comments. She said she didn't think he deserved to be prosecuted, which seems like that would negate the theory of a contentious trade-off game.

But, if she felt her own guilt in it (we're both guilty, but no one knows I am), then she may be extending the olive branch in hopes he would do the same for her.

 

I still say her description of him would have to be close to the truth, he killed her child and regardless of any complicity on her side (no one knows of it, so it might as well not exist), she does not owe him any favors.

[Murphy101]

I saw this on the news last night and they were showing the roads and such.

 

It really doesn't look that far from where the truck was to the place where the mother was supposed to meet them or even her home. I could easily see that a 11 and 12 year old could get there without a problem if they were very familiar with the area.

 

The kids were layered in clothes, the reason they were found in PJs is b/c hypothermia makes you think you are hot when you are not and they striped down in their delusion. At least that was my understanding.

 

It sounds as though dad just honestly didn't think hypothermia was an issue for a short trek to the mother's house (it wasn't supposed to turn into a 10 mile hike - the kids hypothermia caused them to become disoriented) until he was walking in it looking for them. This is actually VERY common. You're all bundled up so you think you're fine - until about an hour later when it hits you that you are in over head. Rescue teams see this happen. all. the. time.

 

I don't know that I'd consider it neglect, I don't know enough. I know that I don't consider 11 or 12 yrs old to be on par with say a 5 yr old child.

 

I do think murder charges are not called for.

 

It sounds to me like a simple case of really under-estimating the threat of hypothermia with tragic results. Which happens every year. This time, it just happens the tragedy is an 11 yr old girl.

[beansprouts]

Well, I guess we can skip that expensive trial. The Media has already convicted him.

[Audrey]

He made a very unwise choice, and the results were tragic.

 

I am not sure that "murder" is an appropriate charge, though.

 

I think it's appropriate, but only because we seem to be lacking the ability to charge people for criminal stupidity. :glare:

[Audrey]

I saw this on the news last night and they were showing the roads and such.

 

It really doesn't look that far from where the truck was to the place where the mother was supposed to meet them or even her home. I could easily see that a 11 and 12 year old could get there without a problem if they were very familiar with the area.

 

The kids were layered in clothes, the reason they were found in PJs is b/c hypothermia makes you think you are hot when you are not and they striped down in their delusion. At least that was my understanding.

 

It sounds as though dad just honestly didn't think hypothermia was an issue for a short trek to the mother's house (it wasn't supposed to turn into a 10 mile hike - the kids hypothermia caused them to become disoriented) until he was walking in it looking for them. This is actually VERY common. You're all bundled up so you think you're fine - until about an hour later when it hits you that you are in over head. Rescue teams see this happen. all. the. time.

 

I don't know that I'd consider it neglect, I don't know enough. I know that I don't consider 11 or 12 yrs old to be on par with say a 5 yr old child.

 

I do think murder charges are not called for.

 

It sounds to me like a simple case of really under-estimating the threat of hypothermia with tragic results. Which happens every year. This time, it just happens the tragedy is an 11 yr old girl.

 

 

Nope. Not buying that defense. If you live in cold weather territory you KNOW not to go walking. You. Stay. Put.

 

And, if you don't know that, well... IMNSHO you're an idiot. Yes. I said idiot.

[Murphy101]

Nope. Not buying that defense. If you live in cold weather territory you KNOW not to go walking. You. Stay. Put.

 

And, if you don't know that, well... IMNSHO you're an idiot. Yes. I said idiot.

 

hmmm. very possibly. being an idiot usually doesn't get one charged with murder though, even if the result is death. heck, every parent has been an idiot at some point.

 

aside from that, people who are used to living in cold weather territory are used to cold weather and often get complacent or over-confident. Same thing happens in deserts. People who live there get complacent or over-confident and someone dies of dehydration or heat stroke. Happens all the time.

 

And for every story about someone saved for staying put, you hear stories of someone who would have survived if they'd just known to walk a quater mile to where help was. It's not like the dad sent them wandering. He KNEW their mother was waiting and they KNEW where she was. It really just sounds like they all tragicly underestimating mother nature.

 

I don't know.

 

Would I have let my kids go walking off? I doubt it. Mostly because I'm a paranoid mother on even the sunniest of days.;)

 

But I walked miles and miles alone at the age of 12 and it didn't kill me. History is full of stories of 11 and 12 yr olds who did far more than walk in blizzards and weren't considered neglected for it. Even the ones that died.

 

So unless he knew he was sentencing his dd to a death walk, and it doesn't appear that he did, then I'm not comfortable with a murder charge in this case.

 

Was it stupid? Probably.

Is he an idiot? Probably.

It takes more than that to make a murderer though.

[coffeefreak]

There are no winners here. I'm just sad, sad, sad. :(

[phathui5]

It is a well known tactic of abusers to send their improperly dressed targets (spouse, children) out in the elements to punish/hurt them.

 

Sure, but that's irrelevant to the case here. That isn't what happened.

[unsinkable]

Sure, but that's irrelevant to the case here. That isn't what happened.

 

I don't think it is irrelevant until it is known why the kids didn't stay with the truck. On this thread, posters were speculating about why the dad let them go in such potentially life threatening weather. Some posters speculated that the kids were pestering the dad to let them walk. What if it was a "that'll teach 'em" move by the dad? In other words, he knew it was too cold & windy to walk and wanted to punish them by letting them try it?

 

Now, I don't know what the dad was/is thinking. And to read the news accounts, he sure appears distraught and agonized.

[anissarobert]

I have been heartbroken over this story for the last several days. I have been over that stretch of highway many times and there is nothing out there for miles. I can't imagine letting my dc walk for help there. I don't know all the details, but this is so sad.

 

What really brings this home is that my family and I spent Christmas Eve stuck in the same storm. We were traveling ahead of the storm down a isolated mountain road, and hit a patch of ice. Luckily my dh is an experienced driver and was able to aim the car toward the side of the mountain and not the cliff on the other side. (500+ feet) Like many parts of Idaho there is no cell phone service along this road. I knew that rescue would come soon though, because we had called ahead with our departure time. We saw my dad's headlights within 10 minutes of the time I predicted, so we were only stuck for a couple of hours. However, we were prepared and could have lasted the night if it had become necessary. We were only 10-15 miles from my parents house, but it never occured to us to leave the car to walk in the storm. Our car spent the next couple of days stranded on the mountain until snowplows could reopen the road.

 

I'm not sure what was going through this man's mind. I might have walked with my dc in extreme circumstances. (Days stranded with no help or something.) I can not imagine letting them go by themselves.

[orangearrow]

He made a very unwise choice, and the results were tragic.

 

I am not sure that "murder" is an appropriate charge, though.

 

 

ita. The poor man - the picture of him just about broke my heart. What a horrible decision to have to live with. So sad. Poor little girl. And her brother. :( *sigh*

 

I think maybe he didn't realize just how FAR they were from their mother's house. Maybe he really thought they were a lot closer, not paying attention to landmarks due to the snow, etc. :confused:

[HRAAB]

I've been down that same stretch of road - quite a few times. I cannot imagine what the father was thinking. I wouldn't have my 11 yr old dd walk that in summer. During winter and that weather, dear God. I'd have to say it was beyond negligence in my opinion.

 

I'm not sure about the charge. It wasn't pre-meditated. Perhaps manslaughter. I don't know.

 

Janet