On Writing: Narration, copywork, and dictation.

[Clarita]

So, I read the book Know and Tell and now I can see the clear connection between how narration leads to good composition. I'm not understanding how to connect copywork to being able to formulate what you want to say into a grammatically correct sentence.

Example DS read a book today about frogs, then he narrated this to me, "I learned frogs sleep at the bottom of the pond when winter comes." (I don't really know if that is grammatically correct from a written standpoint either.) I don't understand or know the process to get to the point where he can write that sentence. 

 

[Nichola]

Know and Tell is a great resource.

Since written narration isn’t recommended until 4th or 5th grade, kids will be doing oral narration and copywork for some time before they attempt written narration. It’s a gradual process. They hear and see examples of good writing in read alouds, their own reading, and copywork, and they soak that in for a few years before they begin writing their own narrations. It is slow, but the idea is that good writers have to first be good readers. It takes time to develop mental models of what constitutes good writing, and those slower years in the beginning are providing them with that. Copywork isn’t a linear process to students writing their own sentences—it’s more about exposing them to good writing and rich language so that they have something to draw from when they are ready to write.

I’ll add one caveat, though, because I find this is an area where I differ from many people in Charlotte Mason circles—I don’t think copywork is sufficient for teaching spelling and grammar. I think most kids still need explicit instruction in those subjects.
 

[HomeAgain]

I think of copywork as kind of like practicing scales.  A child is practicing common grammar, spelling, and speech patterns so they're more intuited when they think/speak/write their own ideas.  It's adding a bit of fluidity to their work.  The more common practice of teaching a child handwriting and then expecting them to be able to put that handwriting, spelling, and thought process together all at once is actually more difficult and not as successful,imo.

Like @Nichola, I don't think copywork is sufficient on its own.  It's helpful, but because it can be more passive in nature a kid needs explicit work with spelling and grammar, both of which are more analytical skills.  What that looks like with each kid is different, but copywork on its own just isn't enough. Dictation practices those analytical skills, but for a kid to be able to move beyond, to know the rules, they have to be taught the rules and have their work acknowledge that part of the process. 

I also think moving from copywork/dictation to written narration isn't enough.  Learning to write a paragraph is an analytical skill.  Breaking down the steps is important. Written narration comes easily enough when it's something chronological, but learning to organize topical thoughts needs more work.

I like the tools of copywork, dictation, and narration.  I think they're great and they have a place right next to explicit teaching.  I don't think a lot of kids would do as well with just those tools, though.

[8filltheheart]

I have never used narration with my kids, but I did use copywork as their introductory foundation for writing.  We started with simple sentences.  After they copied the sentence, we would talk about who the sentence was about and what they were doing.  (Finding subject and verb.)  Verbally, I would give similar type sentences intermixed with incomplete thoughts and ask them the same kinds of questions as their copywork so that they started to grasp what was required for a complete thought.

We progressed to short paragraphs. In addition to looking at the sentences individually, we analyzed the paragraph.  What was the paragraph about?  Which sentence guided us the reader?  What sort of information filled out/supported that sentence?  The discussion of how paragraphs have topic sentences and supporting details progressed to outlining copywork paragraphs.  

We progressed to my giving them a topic to create a word map, then outline, and then write the paragraph.

[Melanie32]

In a CM education, dictation is the principal method of teaching proper spelling and it worked better than all the spelling curricula we tried and my daughter had a hard time with spelling so she was not a natural speller. Yet consistent dictation yielded the most fruit for her. She is now a great speller!
 

As someone has already mentioned, it is a gradual baby steps kind of approach. It seems like you’re just plodding along but when you stop and look back after consistent practice, you will see the results. 
 

Around middle school age, I taught my daughter how to form her written narrations into paragraphs and then, more formal essays. However the hardest part, having something to say and saying it well, was already at work in her writings. It was not a big deal at all to teach the form when the time came as the substance was already there.

After reading and narrating and doing copywork and dictation from so many great books for years, she knew how to write well. 

 

[8filltheheart]

FWIW, studied dictation was a fail here. How to Teach Spelling, otoh, which teaches OG spelling rules applied to words and then incorporates spiral phrases/sentences for dictation did/does. The spiraled review helps reinforce what has previously been studied.

[Nm.]

I noticed a benefit to doing formal spelling (rod & staff or all about spelling) & studied dictation (day by day).  I also do narrations & copywork + formal writing/ grammar.  I wrote a procedure list  to expedite things for each child.  Of course read alouds for all, but it’s the main focus for pk-1st.

Here are our foreseeable LA plans pk-6 to give you an idea:
Grades pk-k read alouds/ phonics/ letter formation when ready

grades 1 read alouds, first language lessons (includes poetry memorization, oral grammar, narration exercises), all about spelling/reading, practice letter formation with all about spelling

grade 2 first language lessons, (includes oral grammar, narration exercises, copywork, poetry memorization), handwriting without tears, all about spelling/reading (continue to watch handwriting during spelling)

grade 3 formal but gentle grammar/writing written- (rod and staff “grade 2” or primary language lessons), plus spelling (rod and staff spelling or all about spelling depending on child), continue phonics if needed, copywork, oral narrations.

grade 4 formal grammar/writing (rod and staff grade 3), spelling, dictation day by day, copywork, oral narrations

grade 5 formal grammar/writing (rod and staff grade 4), writing strands 3, spelling, dictation day by day, copywork (mainly just common place book), written narrations

grade 6 formal grammar/writing (rod and staff grade 5), writing strands 4, spelling, dictation day by day, common place book.  Written narrations. I also have IEW Middle Ages to use for 6th or 7th depending on the child.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Nm.

[PeterPan]

On 9/19/2023 at 12:40 AM, Clarita said:

Example DS read a book today about frogs, then he narrated this to me, "I learned frogs sleep at the bottom of the pond when winter comes." (I don't really know if that is grammatically correct from a written standpoint either.)

Remind me, is english your first language? The sentence is fine. It might sound better to you with "I learned that..." but it's certainly a normal thing for a native english speaker to say. As he reads more and more, he will take in more language and (hopefully) continue to develop his language ear. He will hear the difference between how we speak (a bit more casual) and how we write. But it's fine.

On 9/19/2023 at 12:40 AM, Clarita said:

I'm not understanding how to connect copywork to being able to formulate what you want to say into a grammatically correct sentence.

Copywork is going to have MANY skills pulling together to make the task happen. They have to use their working memory, their vision (to track from the model over to their paper), their motor planning, etc. It's actually very complex and the dc who CAN do this comfortably may also be a dc who is naturally picking up language (vocabulary, syntactical complexity, punctuation, etc.), which is why someone might conclude the task was beneficial. However you are completely right to ask whether it's instructional or whether it's a *reflection* of the learning and skill development that has already occurred. 😉 Or put another way, if you have a dc who ISN'T naturally learning those things (like my ds with ASD2 and severe dysgraphia and SLDs), would you use that as an instructional technique? Is it actually a great, evidence based instructional, intervention, actual instruction technique? 

Who is the audience of the book you're reading? Is it for professionals (SLPs, interventions, educators) or is it a homeschool audience book?

The questions you're asking about how to work on syntactical complexity in writing might be answered by reading some of the newer books on writing like https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Revolution-Advancing-Thinking-Subjects/dp/1119364914/ref=sr_1_1?crid=27IIZIIUNBTL4&keywords=writing+revolution&qid=1695275785&sprefix=writing+revolution%2Caps%2C93&sr=8-1

I'm using this https://www.amazon.com/Teachers-Effective-Sentence-Special-Needs-Learners/dp/1462506771/ref=sr_1_1?crid=R0P7Z5CFCRAZ&keywords=teachers+guide+to+effective+sentence+writing+by+bruce+saddler&qid=1695276738&sprefix=sentence+writing+saddler%2Caps%2C119&sr=8-1  with my ds right now.

There are children for whom all the skill components of copywork (working memory, vision, motor planning, etc.) are so easy that they actually CAN enjoy copywork and find it a language learning experience. The mom might select copywork that is syntactically complex that engages the child, and it's done ia slow, analytical way that encourages close reading and engagement. It could completely be a rich experience like that for some kids! My older dc was like this,  able to enjoy enriching models. 

If some/many of those necessary skills are hard, the brain is distracted and no it's not a good language learning method at that point. It really depends on the dc. 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by PeterPan

[Clarita]

Thank you everyone for the responses. I've been reading and wrapping my head around what language arts could look like in my homeschool.

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Remind me, is english your first language?

English is technically not my first language, but it is my strongest language (and the only language that I can read and write fluently in). I moved to the US when I was 6 and I was bilingual in English and Chinese since I was in preschool, which was a pretty common thing in Hong Kong when I was little.

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Who is the audience of the book you're reading? Is it for professionals (SLPs, interventions, educators) or is it a homeschool audience book?

Know and Tell, I would say is a book written for the homeschool audience book and I would even go as far to say it really is for the normal student rather than someone who needs a lot more hand holding (there is a chapter about it). 

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The questions you're asking about how to work on syntactical complexity in writing might be answered by reading some of the newer books on writing like https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Revolution-Advancing-Thinking-Subjects/dp/1119364914/ref=sr_1_1?crid=27IIZIIUNBTL4&keywords=writing+revolution&qid=1695275785&sprefix=writing+revolution%2Caps%2C93&sr=8-1

I actually really like The Writing Revolution. The Writing Revolution and Know and Tell cover a lot about the how to teach composition, but not a lot on the progression of the nitty gritty parts of writing like the grammar and spelling. 

This discussion has been immensely helpful in looking at the different ways I could piece this whole writing thing together.  There are a lot of blogs out there that sort of make copywork -> dictation -> narration, believe in this thing people have been doing for all of time, then in 12 years *poof* a brilliant writer emerges. I feel like there is a bit more behind the curtain (even if the authors don't think so). Most people who write blogs are good at language arts so I'm sure there is much more natural discussion about things than I am going to naturally give my children. 

[PeterPan]

15 hours ago, Clarita said:

but not a lot on the progression of the nitty gritty parts of writing like the grammar and spelling. 

 

15 hours ago, Clarita said:

There are a lot of blogs out there that sort of make copywork -> dictation -> narration, believe in this thing people have been doing for all of time, then in 12 years *poof* a brilliant writer emerges.

Yup. But the gap is not instruction so much as intervention/therapy level understanding. If your student is not getting it with traditional, typical resources, it's possible there are some things that got missed. They can even be super subtle, like some auditory processing of language issues glitching things. Some kids are complex, sigh. 

If you're looking for more detailed help, move up the food chain or consider evals. The auditory processing of language work we're doing with an SLP finally got spelling to make sense for my ds. Remember, to spell you need a bunch of things to come together (visual memory, understanding morphology, processing the bits of words, etc.). If you've banged your head quite a bit trying normal things, sometimes you need a better explanation for why it's not quite happening the way you thought. Some kids have convergence and poor visual memory and have it come together with work on retained reflexes, vision, etc. 

I suspect for many kids it *is* as poof magical as the books imply. It just isn't for some, and that some could be 30%. 😂 

That Saddler book I mentioned looks really dry, but the entire 2nd half of the book is really sophisticated sentence combining exercises. I've been doing them with my ds and they're taking his ability to grapple with syntax to a whole new level, super impressed. I don't know what you need, but for him Killgallon was too hard. This book goes at it from a more intervention perspective, one concept at a time, and he can get there. The ability to repeat sentences is connected to their language comprehension. If I said a sentence to you in (pick a language) you might have a hard time repeating it, especially if it was super long. But if I said it in english or Chinese, something you speak well and comprehend completely, you'd have little or no trouble repeating the same sentence. So while we measure working memory with repetition of digits, etc. and could be tempted to think of sentence repetition as a measure of working memory (which it partly is), it is also a window into how they're processing language. 

Did you see the other thread where I mentioned https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2023/09/04/more-evidence-that-our-approach-to-reading-comprehension-is-all-wrong/?sh=38fb04876875 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by PeterPan

[8filltheheart]

17 hours ago, Clarita said:

This discussion has been immensely helpful in looking at the different ways I could piece this whole writing thing together.  There are a lot of blogs out there that sort of make copywork -> dictation -> narration, believe in this thing people have been doing for all of time, then in 12 years *poof* a brilliant writer emerges. I feel like there is a bit more behind the curtain (even if the authors don't think so). Most people who write blogs are good at language arts so I'm sure there is much more natural discussion about things than I am going to naturally give my children. 

I agree with you 100%.  Basic skeletal writing skills, sure.  All good writing uses the same basic structure--main idea, supporting details, transitions.  That is the skeleton behind the composition.  But, copywork, dictation, narration alone will not provide a student with the necessary skills required for research papers, essays incorporating supporting quotes, persuasive essays, etc.  My kids start combining information from multiple sources in elementary school.  They are incorporating supporting quotes in middle school.  Basic essay writing is introduced in somewhere between 7th-9th grade.  By the time they graduate from high school, essays are their standard form of writing. They can write 10-15 page research papers without undue effort.  Those are not skills that "poof."  Are they hard to learn? No.  Being a solid writer enables students to adapt writing strategies fairly easily.  But, IMO, narration reaches its limit of usefulness in late elementary school.  There is zero reason to continue to limit writing to narration which is simply regurgitation.  My kids, anyway, would find that continued form of writing incredibly boring.  It is one thing to do summarizations for notes and studying.  It is another for that to be the basis of writing assignments.  Research papers and essays are more interesting and therefore more enjoyable to write.

[Nichola]

I feel like there are some misconceptions out there about narration. It isn’t just repeating back whatever was in the reading. It is a means for children (or adults) to process what they’re learning. They are personalizing the new knowledge by putting it in their own words and connecting it to previously acquired knowledge. Written narrations can be simple retellings in the earlier years, but as students get older, written narrations should become more mature. They should be bringing other ideas into their writing—what did this remind me of, where have I seen this pattern before, how does this connect to other topics I’m learning about? It is also intended to help them develop a substantive, natural writing style before they begin shaping their writing to fit a particular form. I honestly don’t think anyone can outgrow written narration. I still find it helpful myself if I’m trying to process my thoughts on a book, particularly if the plot or subject matter are complex.

My husband has been very much on board with teaching our kids narration. He says that he essentially narrates for a living. A major component of his job is reading complex material, processing the information, and then retelling it, either orally or in written form, to others. He likes that our kids are learning this at a young age because he encounters so many people who do it poorly. Narration is a skill that anyone can acquire and improve on, but it does take practice.

I agree with those who say that kids should be taught how to write essays and reports before they go to college. I’ve seen people recommend teaching only written narration before college, with the idea that professors will teach students everything they need to know about writing in particular forms once they get there. That idea seems extreme, and I don’t know how many follow it in practice.  In my opinion, it is unfair to the student. Yes, if they’re bright, they can learn to write an essay in college, but it’s certainly easier if they have some previous experience. 

[8filltheheart]

9 hours ago, Nichola said:

I feel like there are some misconceptions out there about narration. It isn’t just repeating back whatever was in the reading. It is a means for children (or adults) to process what they’re learning. They are personalizing the new knowledge by putting it in their own words and connecting it to previously acquired knowledge. Written narrations can be simple retellings in the earlier years, but as students get older, written narrations should become more mature. They should be bringing other ideas into their writing—what did this remind me of, where have I seen this pattern before, how does this connect to other topics I’m learning about? It is also intended to help them develop a substantive, natural writing style before they begin shaping their writing to fit a particular form. I honestly don’t think anyone can outgrow written narration. I still find it helpful myself if I’m trying to process my thoughts on a book, particularly if the plot or subject matter are complex.

My husband has been very much on board with teaching our kids narration. He says that he essentially narrates for a living. A major component of his job is reading complex material, processing the information, and then retelling it, either orally or in written form, to others. He likes that our kids are learning this at a young age because he encounters so many people who do it poorly. Narration is a skill that anyone can acquire and improve on, but it does take practice.

I agree with those who say that kids should be taught how to write essays and reports before they go to college. I’ve seen people recommend teaching only written narration before college, with the idea that professors will teach students everything they need to know about writing in particular forms once they get there. That idea seems extreme, and I don’t know how many follow it in practice.  In my opinion, it is unfair to the student. Yes, if they’re bright, they can learn to write an essay in college, but it’s certainly easier if they have some previous experience. 

It looks like your oldest child is 9? At 9, no, they wouldn't have outgrown narration.  But, I am curious if you would write this same post 5 yrs from now.

In 7th grade my kids learn how to start taking Cornell Notes. CN have 2 main parts--notes and summarizations.  The goal in starting in 7th grade is that gradually throughout middle and high school they will improve their note taking skills and learn to discern key pts from unnecessary details (sort of an expansion on narration skills). The daily subject summaries range from a simple single paragraph to multiple paragraphs (in 7th grade, 1 paragraph is the norm. By 12th, it depends on the subject and how much/what material was covered.) CN end up being their core study materials in college (definitely a valuable skill to have mastered).

But summarizations serve a completely different function than their writing assignments in middle school.  My 8th grader is getting ready to write an essay on the biblical allusions in Gift of the Magi.  It is a different style and level of writing.  Summaries serve a functional role, but by middle school I don't consider them "writing" assignments anymore.  Writing assignments progressively increase their writing, research, and analytical skills by incorporating all 3.

Edited September 25, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Nichola]

18 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

It looks like your oldest child is 9? At 9, no, they wouldn't have outgrown narration.  But, I am curious if you would write this same post 5 yrs from now.

In 7th grade my kids learn how to start taking Cornell Notes. CN have 2 main parts--notes and summarizations.  The goal in starting in 7th grade is that gradually throughout middle and high school they will improve their note taking skills and learn to discern key pts from unnecessary details (sort of an expansion on narration skills). The daily subject summaries range from a simple single paragraph to multiple paragraphs (in 7th grade, 1 paragraph is the norm. By 12th, it depends on the subject and how much/what material was covered.) CN end up being their core study materials in college (definitely a valuable skill to have mastered).

But summarizations serve a completely different function than their writing assignments in middle school.  My 8th grader is getting ready to write an essay on the biblical allusions in Gift of the Magi.  It is a different style and level of writing.  Summaries serve a functional role, but by middle school I don't consider them "writing" assignments anymore.  Writing assignments progressively increase their writing, research, and analytical skills by incorporating all 3.

I feel like we’re using different definitions of narration. Narration is telling back what you’ve read, but it’s also where the work of learning happens. Telling what you’ve read in your own words can be harder than answering someone else’s questions about it. It’s also different than simple summarization because the student is forming a relationship with the knowledge, not just looking for key points. 
The main difference between Charlotte Mason’s approach to narration and some other styles I’ve seen is that in CM narration the teacher isn’t supposed to give much direction to the conversation. Kids are going to notice things in the text that the teacher didn’t, which isn’t a lack of learning on the teacher’s part. It’s just human nature that we’re going to be drawn to different parts of the story, and by giving the child room to say those things, you’re allowing them to grow. Asking leading questions or asking for the main idea are approaches that will interfere with their own process of making connections because then they’re looking for “the right answer.” Looking for main ideas and key points is analytical knowledge that, honestly, isn’t that hard to acquire. Narration is about developing the person though. It’s about the child figuring out on her own that Aslan is Jesus without you telling her. In high school, maybe it would be reading Dracula and noticing the references to other sources, seeing how JK Rowling drew on it in Harry Potter, finding Biblical allusions. Narration isn’t something that leads straight to college note-taking, although it can help with that. It is learning to summarize in a way that makes you more human.

I also don’t think it’s an either/or situation with research papers and narration. You can do both, and I think you should. Narration is just the daily discussion of what they’ve been reading, even in the upper years. You are correct that my oldest is 9, but we are discussing timeless educational principles, not my own ideas. Many homeschoolers with grown children talk about using narration with all ages. There are different ways of doing it with high schoolers, but I think the most common is that they have a list of assignments that they’re supposed to read that day, so they narrate orally to the teacher about all of them but one. For the last one, they write about it instead of telling orally. I think it could be viewed as a daily writing exercise. It isn’t something that should take up a lot of time. There should still be plenty of time for learning to write essays and reports.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Nichola

[8filltheheart]

46 minutes ago, Nichola said:

I feel like we’re using different definitions of narration. Narration is telling back what you’ve read, but it’s also where the work of learning happens. Telling what you’ve read in your own words can be harder than answering someone else’s questions about it. It’s also different than simple summarization because the student is forming a relationship with the knowledge, not just looking for key points. 
The main difference between Charlotte Mason’s approach to narration and some other styles I’ve seen is that in CM narration the teacher isn’t supposed to give much direction to the conversation. Kids are going to notice things in the text that the teacher didn’t, which isn’t a lack of learning on the teacher’s part. It’s just human nature that we’re going to be drawn to different parts of the story, and by giving the child room to say those things, you’re allowing them to grow. Asking leading questions or asking for the main idea are approaches that will interfere with their own process of making connections because then they’re looking for “the right answer.” I was very good at taking tests in school. I made a 36 in the reading portion of the ACT. Looking for main ideas and key points is analytical knowledge that, honestly, isn’t that hard to acquire. Narration is about developing the person though. It’s about the child figuring out on her own that Aslan is Jesus without you telling her. In high school, maybe it would be reading Dracula and noticing the references to other sources, seeing how JK Rowling drew on it in Harry Potter, finding Biblical allusions. Narration isn’t something that leads straight to college note-taking, although it can help with that. It is learning to summarize in a way that makes you more human.

I also don’t think it’s an either/or situation with research papers and narration. You can do both, and I think you should. Narration is just the daily discussion of what they’ve been reading, even in the upper years. You are correct that my oldest is 9, but we are discussing timeless educational principles, not my own ideas. Many homeschoolers with grown children talk about using narration with all ages. There are different ways of doing it with high schoolers, but I think the most common is that they have a list of assignments that they’re supposed to read that day, so they narrate orally to the teacher about all of them but one. For the last one, they write about it instead of telling orally. I think it could be viewed as a daily writing exercise. It isn’t something that should take up a lot of time. There should still be plenty of time for learning to write essays and reports.

? Not sure where you got the impression that CN is answering directed questions. FWIW, my kids dont use any textbooks other than for math, high school science, and foreign language grammar. They have never completed a single worksheet in their homeschool education.  Synthesizing information and forming connections is a simple necessity for their learning bc it hasn't been done for them in tidbit, bold letter, spoonfed textbook presentation.

It really comes down to use of time. My kids are taking heavy academic loads by middle school (for example, my 8th grader is taking all high school equivalent subjects: geometry, biology, US history, lit, 4th yr of Russian, plus violin (she is concertmaster for her orchestra), piano, and voice.)  Written narration would consume time that for my kids can be used for a better purpose.  

I personally do not believe that narration holds a unique learning purpose that elevates it to a level of necessity.  FWIW, I have known families (not in recent yrs, closer to 20 yrs ago) who did take CM's approach through high school. Those kids were not served well in transitioning to college academic writing. Over the past decade I haven't met many homeschoolers actually teaching writing at home in high school. Most outsource.  I dont know anyone IRL using CM beyond elementary school......and that has been true for a very long time. There is a reason that the number of homeschoolers sticking with CM methodologies shrinks as kids get older. 

[lewelma]

I was talking to my nephew this summer (age 14) and he was telling me a funny story about something that had happened during his day. His retelling was so long winded. Like really really long. He simply didn't know what was important or how to make his story in any way compelling without bogging down in the details.  I kept laughing and saying "get to the point." 

My sister later told me that she thought this was a side effect of ADHD and she was getting him tested.  I told her that he didn't have ADHD (I had homeschooled him for 3 months during covid, so had an educated opinion), rather he just needed to spend a couple of months doing oral narration. Clearly, he had never spent any time thinking through what is important. My sister still got him tested for ADHD, and he doesn't have it. He just needs practice with thinking through how best to get across what he is trying to get across.

Narration is a very simple, effective, and quick solution to getting kids to sort through stuff in their mind. Once they have mastered this skill orally, it leads directly into their written work as they get older. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by lewelma

[Melanie32]

I totally agree that every method doesn’t work for every child. However Charlotte Mason’s methods have been used successfully with thousands of students so they do work very well for lots of people.
 

The parent has to lead and turn the narration assignments into more complex essays. That’s what we did. We also used practiced writing with prompts and then did a research paper or two and covered them various kinds of essays needed for college. It really didn’t take long and my daughter transitioned into college level writing with no problem whatsoever. My son went to trade school but ended up having to write a lot of essays there and he did very well also. In fact both of my children are excellent writers!

I’m not saying that everyone needs to use CM methods or that any one method works perfectly for every child. I’m just sharing that they do work and work very well for many many people. 
 

 

[Clarita]

On 9/22/2023 at 3:24 AM, PeterPan said:

I suspect for many kids it *is* as poof magical as the books imply. It just isn't for some, and that some could be 30%. 😂 

More than my children actually struggling, I think I'm part of that 30%. 

[Nichola]

2 hours ago, Clarita said:

More than my children actually struggling, I think I'm part of that 30%. 

Do you think you have dyslexia or some other learning difference? Or do you feel like you just didn’t get a great education in language arts?

I’ve heard this advice for parents who feel out of their element when it comes to literature (or any other subject), so I’ll pass it along in case you find it helpful: Pick a curriculum that you like for the upper years, start reading their 7th grade booklist, and then work your way up from there. By the time you finish, you’ll have a great education, and you’ll be prepared to help your kids when they get to that stage.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Nichola

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

More than my children actually struggling, I think I'm part of that 30%. 

One thing to keep in mind, at least this is true for my kids, is that writing is more enjoyable when they are writing about something that interests them.  When they are little, fun writing assignments can keep them motivated.  You could do simple "game" type writing assignments, too.  Have you ever seen storyboard sequence cards?  (pictures that they have to arrange in order)  They can be used for writing--they have to write the story in words.  Or story cubes, or story games like this tall tale game.   They can create report "books" on topics of interests and include illustrations (my kids enjoyed creating books on things like dinosaurs, marine animals, planets, etc.)  You can create family newsletters to send out to family.  It's OK to be creative and find ways to make them enjoy writing.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Nichola said:

Do you think you have dyslexia or some other learning difference? Or do you feel like you just didn’t get a great education in language arts?

Mostly a not great education in language arts (taught 3 cueing method for reading). I don't have dyslexia although from a thread a while back I may have some visual tracking issues. 

[Nichola]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:12 AM, 8filltheheart said:

? Not sure where you got the impression that CN is answering directed questions. FWIW, my kids dont use any textbooks other than for math, high school science, and foreign language grammar. They have never completed a single worksheet in their homeschool education.  Synthesizing information and forming connections is a simple necessity for their learning bc it hasn't been done for them in tidbit, bold letter, spoonfed textbook presentation.

It really comes down to use of time. My kids are taking heavy academic loads by middle school (for example, my 8th grader is taking all high school equivalent subjects: geometry, biology, US history, lit, 4th yr of Russian, plus violin (she is concertmaster for her orchestra), piano, and voice.)  Written narration would consume time that for my kids can be used for a better purpose.  

I personally do not believe that narration holds a unique learning purpose that elevates it to a level of necessity.  FWIW, I have known families (not in recent yrs, closer to 20 yrs ago) who did take CM's approach through high school. Those kids were not served well in transitioning to college academic writing. Over the past decade I haven't met many homeschoolers actually teaching writing at home in high school. Most outsource.  I dont know anyone IRL using CM beyond elementary school......and that has been true for a very long time. There is a reason that the number of homeschoolers sticking with CM methodologies shrinks as kids get older. 

I guess I’m sort of confused too. I wasn’t talking about Cornell Notes or worksheets. I apologize if I was unclear. I’ll try to condense what I was saying and maybe it will make more sense.

1. Narration is more than just regurgitation. It combines many skills, including storytelling and summarizing, but it leaves room for notice and wonder, where a strict summary of information would not (and there is a place for strict summarization—it’s just not the same as narration). It also gives the student an opportunity to process the information by retelling it.

2. Sometimes narration doesn’t go well because the teacher is inadvertently asking leading questions to the student, so the student is focused on finding the “right” answer or the “main” idea, rather than just telling what she noticed. 

3. Narration is a life skill that can be improved with practice. I’ve described how my husband uses it in his job and how I use it with my own reading. If you tell your friend about a movie you watched or a book you read, that’s oral narration. If you write to your friend about it in an email or a text, that’s written narration. People don’t always call it that, but it is something we all do, and it’s something we can always get better at. That’s why I said we can’t outgrow it.

I agree with you that many people in the CM world don’t understand what it takes to succeed in college, especially in STEM fields. I’m not blaming them—I think they truly don’t understand because it isn’t something they’ve experienced personally. But I don’t think we need to throw out everything Charlotte Mason said because some people haven’t implemented it well in 21st century America. Much of what she wrote was based on the classical tradition of education, and I think there’s room to combine that with practical college preparation.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Nichola

[HomeAgain]

On 9/24/2023 at 9:27 PM, Nichola said:

I feel like there are some misconceptions out there about narration. It isn’t just repeating back whatever was in the reading. It is a means for children (or adults) to process what they’re learning. They are personalizing the new knowledge by putting it in their own words and connecting it to previously acquired knowledge. Written narrations can be simple retellings in the earlier years, but as students get older, written narrations should become more mature. They should be bringing other ideas into their writing—what did this remind me of, where have I seen this pattern before, how does this connect to other topics I’m learning about? It is also intended to help them develop a substantive, natural writing style before they begin shaping their writing to fit a particular form. I honestly don’t think anyone can outgrow written narration. I still find it helpful myself if I’m trying to process my thoughts on a book, particularly if the plot or subject matter are complex.

My youngest, 13, is in public school this year and he has a weekly assignment that is exactly this.  It's a journal he's keeping where he is doing written narrations of a book of his choice, but the teacher wants them to include more of their thoughts and not just a simple narration.

I'm actually very happy with his English class this year.  He has this narration process, explicit teaching in essay writing, and scaffolded teaching in note taking and organization.  If I was designing a class at home for him it would probably look very similar.

[8filltheheart]

10 hours ago, Nichola said:

I guess I’m sort of confused too. I wasn’t talking about Cornell Notes or worksheets. I apologize if I was unclear. I’ll try to condense what I was saying and maybe it will make more sense.

1. Narration is more than just regurgitation. It combines many skills, including storytelling and summarizing, but it leaves room for notice and wonder, where a strict summary of information would not (and there is a place for strict summarization—it’s just not the same as narration). It also gives the student an opportunity to process the information by retelling it.

2. Sometimes narration doesn’t work because the teacher is inadvertently asking leading questions to the student, so the student is focused on finding the “right” answer or the “main” idea, rather than just telling what she noticed. 

3. Narration is a life skill that can be improved with practice. I’ve described how my husband uses it in his job and how I use it with my own reading. If you tell your friend about a movie you watched or a book you read, that’s oral narration. If you write to your friend about it in an email or a text, that’s written narration. People don’t always call it that, but it is something we all do, and it’s something we can always get better at. That’s why I said we can’t outgrow it.

I agree with you that many people in the CM world don’t understand what it takes to succeed in college, especially in STEM fields. I’m not blaming them—I think they truly don’t understand because it isn’t something they’ve experienced personally. But I don’t think we need to throw out everything Charlotte Mason said because some people haven’t implemented it well in 21st century America. Much of what she wrote was based on the classical tradition of education, and I think there’s room to combine that with practical college preparation.

I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise.  These are simply my opinions based on teaching my 8 kids (plus a granddaughter) over almost 3 decades. For my students, mastering summarization, including incorporating personal thoughts, has not required narration. Oral or written narration is just one of many ways to address that skill.  My personal opinion is that it is not a skill that is justified as assignment-level worthy through 12th grade (the italicized wording is key).

I also believe that although CM had many good educational ideas that following an ideology vs. the actual needs of the children in front of me is not a good.  In a non-classroom setting, it is easy to assess the progress of each individual child.  Subject matter and assignments can be tailored to fit their specific academic needs.  By the time my kids have hit middle school, they have tended to have some compelling interests.  Following something like Ambleside's version of CM would have not served most of my kids well.  I have a severely dyslexic ds who took his first algebra course at age 10.  He graduated from high school having completed the equivalents of math and physics minors.  He would not have been able to manage the reading load of something like Ambleside's suggestions due to his dyslexia.  If I had attempted to follow any intensive literature approach, his needs would have been subverted to an ideology.  (Though I sort of laugh at that qualification bc he read far more than most students.) He graduated from high school with a love of philosophy and theology in addition to math and physics.  I have a dd who studied 3 languages intensely.  She loved epic poetry and Shakespeare.  Her sr yr she designed her own sr capstone thesis for her English cr--the Catholicity of Shakespeare.  She spent the yr researching and reading Shakespeare's works culminating in her written thesis. 

None of my kids has received the same education as a sibling.  My personal pov is that methodology is meant as a tool to be adapted as need.  My philosophy of ed is not dependent on an outside source's methodological definitions.  Narration is not a skill my kids have needed to focus on. I suppose if I had a child who could not synthesize and clearly articulate thoughts, then I would consider narration a more necessary skill.  The kids in front of me, however, were capable of doing more.  (Truthfully, the bigger issue is that my kids would have been bored with narration as the focus of their writing.  Keeping my kids motivated is definitely an educational objective.  🙂 )

Edited September 27, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[philomama]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

In a non-classroom setting, it is easy to assess the progress of each individual child.  Subject matter and assignments can be tailored to fit their specific academic needs.

Thank you! Both for this and for all the comments you've made along these lines! I've been surprised by how many homeschoolers stick to pre-fab curriculum and do things like worksheets. I can understand why, in a large classroom context, things like that are necessary. But part of the value of homeschooling comes from its customizability: the ability to tailor not only to the academic abilities of each child, but to their interests, their developmental needs... their person. Big-picture educational aims are never rigid and concrete. What's important isn't being able to do a certain sort of assignment a certain way. It's being able to gather information, question, reason, and explain yourself well. And there are an almost endless variety of ways of cultivating those big-picture skills.

(Note: I do not mean this to be a response to the details of this thread, or a commentary on anything about CM specifically. Just wanted to say "right on" and "thanks" to 8filltheheart. Makes me feel less alone!)

[goldenecho]

So, I never read that book (sounds like a good one), but due to my son's dyslexia I've let him dictate a lot, and it did lead to better writing (even when he wasn't dictating).

I would guide him when he was saying something that sounded fine conversationally, but didn't work on paper.

For example, if he started going into chain of consciousness type of narration, I'd stop him and say "That's too much to write...we need to stop and make these into shorter sentences." 

He had a habit of staring sentence with because.  For example, if he answered "Why did Andrew get mad?" with "Because his parents weren't listening to him."  I would explain that he could either say  "Andrew got mad because his parents weren't listening to him" or just say "His parents weren't listening to him."   You can't start a written sentence with because, because you need to include what caused the thing that comes after because first."   (We also talked some about rewording the question, though I didn't always require that.)

"Now say that in a way I can write it," became a common refrain.

[Nichola]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:02 AM, 8filltheheart said:

I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise.  These are simply my opinions based on teaching my 8 kids (plus a granddaughter) over almost 3 decades. For my students, mastering summarization, including incorporating personal thoughts, has not required narration. Oral or written narration is just one of many ways to address that skill.  My personal opinion is that it is not a skill that is justified as assignment-level worthy through 12th grade (the italicized wording is key).

I also believe that although CM had many good educational ideas that following an ideology vs. the actual needs of the children in front of me is not a good.  In a non-classroom setting, it is easy to assess the progress of each individual child.  Subject matter and assignments can be tailored to fit their specific academic needs.  By the time my kids have hit middle school, they have tended to have some compelling interests.  Following something like Ambleside's version of CM would have not served most of my kids well.  I have a severely dyslexic ds who took his first algebra course at age 10.  He graduated from high school having completed the equivalents of math and physics minors.  He would not have been able to manage the reading load of something like Ambleside's suggestions due to his dyslexia.  If I had attempted to follow any intensive literature approach, his needs would have been subverted to an ideology.  (Though I sort of laugh at that qualification bc he read far more than most students.) He graduated from high school with a love of philosophy and theology in addition to math and physics.  I have a dd who studied 3 languages intensely.  She loved epic poetry and Shakespeare.  Her sr yr she designed her own sr capstone thesis for her English cr--the Catholicity of Shakespeare.  She spent the yr researching and reading Shakespeare's works culminating in her written thesis. 

None of my kids has received the same education as a sibling.  My personal pov is that methodology is meant as a tool to be adapted as need.  My philosophy of ed is not dependent on an outside source's methodological definitions.  Narration is not a skill my kids have needed to focus on. I suppose if I had a child who could not synthesize and clearly articulate thoughts, then I would consider narration a more necessary skill.  The kids in front of me, however, were capable of doing more.  (Truthfully, the bigger issue is that my kids would have been bored with narration as the focus of their writing.  Keeping my kids motivated is definitely an educational objective.  🙂 )

I would consider summarization that includes personal thoughts to be narration. I’m not sure that we’re disagreeing so much as using different terminology. I think I understand your italicized point for high school, but I also can see how longer essays could spring from a narration or summary. How do you assign essays? Are they based on your kids’ discussions or summaries about what they’re learning? 

I agree with you that following AO exactly as written is not in the best interest of many kids, although I have found their website helpful for organizing myself and choosing books. I use it as a resource, for inspiration, but I do that with several other curricula too, some that are CM and some that aren’t. Then I choose the books I think will work best for my kids in my homeschool. I find that following any particular curriculum to the letter is rather stifling and doesn’t serve me or my kids well. I think there are good things about AO, such as their book lists for literature and history (although not always for the year they recommend), but I also think they don’t know what they don’t know when it comes to math and science. I don’t hear people talk about Mater Amabilis much, but it is a CM curriculum that, in my opinion, has better suggestions for science (at least for elementary age. I’m not as familiar with their upper levels.)

I also agree with you that serving an ideology rather than educating a child is not a good thing. However, I believe that there are educational principles that are timeless and true. I don’t think Charlotte Mason was right about everything (as I’ve said repeatedly), but she articulated many of the things that have gone wrong in modern education and provided principles that can help us think through our attempts to do better. While many things can be adapted for the child in front of us, some things are objectively True, and there are better practices and worse practices. 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Nichola

[8filltheheart]

23 minutes ago, Nichola said:

I would consider summarization that includes personal thoughts to be narration. I’m not sure that we’re disagreeing so much as using different terminology. I think I understand your italicized point for high school, but I also can see how longer essays could spring from a narration or summary. How do you assign essays? Are they based on your kids’ discussions or summaries about what they’re learning? 

 

When they are in middle school, yes, discussions help them form their thoughts on how to approach their research and think through their essays.  I see essays as a new format for my kids.  It requires different skills.  They need to learn to incorporate supporting quotes.  They are introduced to MLA format, etc.  Our discussions are like training wheels.

In high school, their writing assignments are separate from their current studies.   I assign topics I want them to learn more about that they haven't studied or that I want them to explore more deeply.  For example, last yr my then 11th grader wrote a research paper on the impact on local environments of lithium and cobalt mining.  It is not a topic we had ever discussed.  It wasn't a topic she had been learning about and writing summaries about.  She had to write a research paper for her biology course (our course, not an outside course).  She researched and found the topic herself.  She then spent a couple of months reading journal articles and evaluating the research, taking notes, etc.  It isn't something I personally associate with narration or summaries.  

 

[Nichola]

On 9/18/2023 at 11:40 PM, Clarita said:

So, I read the book Know and Tell and now I can see the clear connection between how narration leads to good composition. I'm not understanding how to connect copywork to being able to formulate what you want to say into a grammatically correct sentence.

Example DS read a book today about frogs, then he narrated this to me, "I learned frogs sleep at the bottom of the pond when winter comes." (I don't really know if that is grammatically correct from a written standpoint either.) I don't understand or know the process to get to the point where he can write that sentence. 

 

If you listen to podcasts, Susan Wise Bauer’s new podcast “The Well-Trained Mind” had an episode this week about copywork and how it leads to better writing. They also talked a bit about narration.

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Nichola said:

If you listen to podcasts, Susan Wise Bauer’s new podcast “The Well-Trained Mind” had an episode this week about copywork and how it leads to better writing. They also talked a bit about narration.

Wow this really answered my question. 

Putting the link here https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-importance-of-modeling-copying-and-memory-work/id1704363746?i=1000630975701 in case someone else has this question and wants to know.