S/O of DQST: I live in one of those states.

[maize]

19 hours ago, Farrar said:

 

I say, no. I don't buy it. I'm sure there are some bad therapists out there, but banning conversion therapy for minors is banning an abusive practice with a predetermined outcome that all patients be made straight and cis and use of brainwashing techniques on minors. There's no reason to confuse that for a genuine exploration of different causes of dysphoria.

Unintended consequences of laws are a thing.

If a conversion therapy ban makes mental health practitioners afraid to explore anything beyond immediate and total gender affirmation care, that's a dangerous unintended consequence.

You presumably recognize the danger of unintended consequences when legislation targeting, say, abortion makes medical providers afraid to provide a d&c to a woman having a miscarriage.

Legislation is a blunt and non-discriminating tool. It almost always results in unintended consequences.

Edited June 19, 2023 by maize

[Terabith]

I don’t think @KSera is defending conversion therapy, which is awful.  But I think she’s saying that laws that are about medical treatment can have unintended consequences.  I am 100% opposed to conversion therapy, but when my kid was experiencing gender dysphoria and said, “I want the body I had before I went through puberty,” I was hopeful that therapy could explore a range of issues, including the possibility that a fear of growing up might be contributing to dysphoria.  I was 100% fine with my kid being trans/ non binary, but before they got top surgery, I had hoped a range of things could be explored. Because surgery is a big, permanent thing, and I wanted to be as sure as was reasonably possible that it was the best way to deal with the dysphoria.  But we were unable to find a therapist who would do anything more than say of course if you’re trans, surgery is the right thing to do.  I couldn’t even find anyone who would meet with my kid more than twice because my kid, who had anxiety severe enough that they had to drop out of high school, was sure that the only problem was the dysphoria.  They had the surgery, and I really hope it solves the issue, but I don’t feel like they were well served by the mental health world.  I certainly don’t think conversion therapy is the answer but I think therapist’s fear of being accused of conversion therapy can stifle exploration of issues.  I don’t know what the answer is, though, because I certainly don’t want anyone subjected to actual conversion therapy.  

[Dmmetler]

Just now, KSera said:

Right, that's what I'm saying is they are both bad situations. In conservative areas people experience one side of the problem and in more liberal areas, they sometimes experience the other.

You keep calling it conversion therapy. I'm not talking about conversion therapy. I'm talking about therapy for kids (or adults) with gender dysphoria. If you aren't aware of lots of trans people who have had trouble getting therapy but no trouble getting hormones and surgery, you likely live in a more conservative area than I do. I realize it's the reverse in conservative areas. I'm guessing your haven't read a lot of the deep dive coverage on this that has been quite well done as of late by Reuters and a couple other main stream outlets. You could do some research and find it. I think a lot of people might be surprised at some of what they find if they start reading deeper on this and caring about ALL people experiencing this issue. From time to time I have posted some links from well balanced coverage or research when it comes out in peer reviewed medical journals, but I find it pretty much never gets read.

I DID NOT SAY THIS. Conversion therapy is something done to people who are gay. Therapies of certain kinds should be banned by professional licensing boards though, because otherwise we end up where we are where politicians are going back and forth tit for tat banning various medical things they have no business or knowledge of.

I wonder how much this is due to insurance coverage. Therapy is expensive,and is often not covered or only a few visits are covered. . And for adults, the primary providers of HRT here are places like Planned Parenthood, which offer sliding scale services-and one appointment every few months is a lot cheaper than regular therapy for months. 

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, maize said:

You presumably recognize the danger of unintended consequences when legislation targeting, say, abortion makes medical providers afraid to provide a d&c to a woman having a miscarriage.

Legislation is a blunt and non-discriminating tool. It almost always results in unintended consequences.

Exactly

23 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I don’t think @KSera is defending conversion therapy, which is awful.  But I think she’s saying that laws that are about medical treatment can have unintended consequences.  I am 100% opposed to conversion therapy, but when my kid was experiencing gender dysphoria and said, “I want the body I had before I went through puberty,” I was hopeful that therapy could explore a range of issues, including the possibility that a fear of growing up might be contributing to dysphoria.  I was 100% fine with my kid being trans/ non binary, but before they got top surgery, I had hoped a range of things could be explored. Because surgery is a big, permanent thing, and I wanted to be as sure as was reasonably possible that it was the best way to deal with the dysphoria.  But we were unable to find a therapist who would do anything more than say of course if you’re trans, surgery is the right thing to do.  I couldn’t even find anyone who would meet with my kid more than twice because my kid, who had anxiety severe enough that they had to drop out of high school, was sure that the only problem was the dysphoria.  They had the surgery, and I really hope it solves the issue, but I don’t feel like they were well served by the mental health world.  I certainly don’t think conversion therapy is the answer but I think therapist’s fear of being accused of conversion therapy can stifle exploration of issues.  I don’t know what the answer is, though, because I certainly don’t want anyone subjected to actual conversion therapy.  

Thank you. You said this so much better than I was able to because I am so upset right now. The handful of people who know more about me and my family than what I can share on a public forum will understand why.

19 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I wonder how much this is due to insurance coverage. Therapy is expensive,and is often not covered or only a few visits are covered. . And for adults, the primary providers of HRT here are places like Planned Parenthood, which offer sliding scale services-and one appointment every few months is a lot cheaper than regular therapy for months. 

That's a good point, though surgery is very expensive as well. I'm talking about the same kind of experience Terabith had though, where the therapists just want to give letters and not get into it.

[SanDiegoMom]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I have known a number of kids who have gone through a number of identifications while in therapy and have eventually landed on identifying as cis or nb. And I live in one of those states. Conversion therapy is abuse. It is not exploration of identity. Show me one real news source where it actually happened that a therapist couldn’t discuss a variety of possible outcomes with a patient for fear of getting arrested for practicing conversion therapy because I don’t buy it.

Our therapist refused to do exploratory therapy with our kid. She said she would lose her license.  She was a general therapist who hadn’t had a lot of gender questioning teens, and who only had a vague understanding of the difference between exploratory and conversion therapy.  
 

Conversation therapy in the traditional sense is not happening in any real scale in the US outside of extremely religious (cult) circles. 
 

In CA the wording is such that any conversational questioning of the basis of one’s gender identity is conversion therapy.  So no ability to talk about social contagion, online forums,  amount of transition timeline consumption, autism, family dynamics, other comorbidities.  Affirmation only.  

[SanDiegoMom]

I would highly encourage anyone who wants to understand the problems with affirmation only therapy to read Time to Think by Hannah Barnes, about the Tavistock clinic in England. It is now shut down and England has moved to no medical interventions for minors except in research settings.
 

No is is served with the uptick in rhetoric, other than politicians and media.  The suicide rhetoric is especially dangerous.  When did we forget that telling kids that they are in danger of committing suicide is actually more detrimental? Suicide is not monocausal and we have completely forgotten that.  
 

Blue states pass laws in reaction to red states. Red states pass them in response to blue stages.  Most are terrible laws, and hopefully they will not be upheld by higher courts.  But I can be equally upset about the chilling effect on gender diverse and gender dysphoric kids in red states as I am about the current law working it’s way through CA stating that parents who don’t affirm their kids gender identity could have them taken away from them. If this had happened two years ago and a mandated reporter (teacher) got wind that we did not affirm our son’s identity, does that mean the state would have taken him away?  

 

[KidsHappen]

On 6/17/2023 at 9:05 AM, Dmmetler said:

DH's entire remaining extended family is in FL, including a trans nephew and a NB nibling. Unfortunately, their college funds are completely in FL's state college system due to buying prepaid tuition credits, making getting out hard. My nibling will be attending UF in the fall, my nephew graduates this year. 

Most of my hubby's family is in FL as well. He grew up there. I moved there as a teen. We met and married there. We have both lived there many different times and in many different cities. It was the only other consideration for retirement besides TX and unfortunately it is just as bad. So now all of our family live in either TX, FL or TN. And as I have stated before we are pretty much stuck here. One of my dd owns a business here, one manages a store she wouldn't want to leave, my hubby has 20 year friendships here, my children has 10-15 year friendships here and I have all of my great doctors here. All of my dd are still of childbearing age and two definitely do not want to have children. So far they have all been very successful with BC but I still worry for them all the same.