Catherine Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I have a nephew age 19 who has been living with us for 10 months now and will be for awhile. This kid needs so much "work" I don't know where to begin, but we have seen progress. My current issue is lying. He is basically not a kid who is in trouble-no drugs, no drinking or promiscuity, but he lies often and it is making me absolutely nuts. It's always stuff like, "I'll bring the dishes down next time I come down" and he NEVER. EVER. does. Or worse, he just told me he had picked up all of his dirty clothes (he is a complete slob-but, Rome wasn't built in a day) and I found he hadn't. He said he lied because he thought it was not really something that mattered. I tried to talk to him about how much lying matters, and not only because people won't trust you, but because you will lie to yourself. I don't object to Christian ideals, but truthfully, I don't think they would sway him much and I am trying to conquer one vice at a time. So, tell me, what would you say to an older kid who is extremely immature who needs help in understanding why lying is absolutely wrong and off limits. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mims Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 One of the biggest problems with todays young adults is a lack of 'formal thinking' skills. In a nutshell, they haven't learned to look logically at life and think through the consequences. If I do A, B might happen. In the specific example you mentioned he has not thought through that you won't trust him because of his lying and how this might affect his future. So just like parenting a younger child you must explain some of the consequences and look for natural consequences to impose as much as possible. Perhaps when he says he will do something you can reiterate that he has lied in the past and you can't trust he will follow through so supper won't be served until you have seen him follow through. I bet some others would be better at coming up with natural consequences for this age than I am but maybe this will get you thinking of strategies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumbledeb Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I don't think you need to impose consequences upon him other than the unavoidable consequence that you will find it hard to know whether you can believe him. You could tell him that people don't respect liars. You could mention that just because something doesn't seem important enough (to him) to tell the truth about, others (including you) won't see it like that and will be very upset about being lied to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Could you just explain that you need to have him be the "big brother" example and tell him that you need him to say, "fill in here whatever answer you want your children to have..our's would be 'yes ma'am' " and do what you say...without hesitation. Just explain that your children are watching, and you need him to act as you expect your children to act...when they are his age. Just apologize for not telling him ahead of time...and set up the expectations from here on out.. Very calmly, without any talkings of the past...Just talk about the future. Even about the thing with lying, I know that small lies aren't considered important by many, but my kids are watching, and it's a big deal to us...Please remember before you speak.... Always tell us the truth... Maybe?? Carrie:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayle in Guatemala Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I would start with following through with commitments. If he wants to ever get a job, buy a house, get a car, have a family and be successful, he needs to be a man of his word. People need to know that they can trust his word. When they find they can't, he can loose his job. It doesn't always happen over "big" things, it's often over the little things. If he lies about, or isn't completely truthful, or doesn't follow through with enough small things he will not get the promotion, raise, or could loose his job. He isn't trustworthy. Confront him lovingly with the things you've noticed and, together, set up goals for him to meet that have to do with follow through. Step by step gets the job done. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I'd let him know that if he isn't able to abide by the list; he needs to start looking for another place to live. Relocating and paying your own way is the true natural consequence of failing to follow the rules of your living arrangement when you're an adult. I don't think lying is the whole problem here. I think he's being disrespectful and taking advantage of you as well. I'm kind of hard-nosed though, so take my opinion for the two cents or less that it's worth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Honesty matters because if you are honest, people expect honesty. If you are dishonest, they expect dishonesty. He may not get that with issues that are minor to him right now, but keep saying it. He'll get it, but it might take him some time and some practice. In the meantime, give him as few opportunities to lie as possible. Success breeds success, and the fewer opportunities he has to lie, the better off he'll be. Instead of asking, "Did you....?" (a yes-no question that allows a lie) I say to my teen dd something along the lines of "If you haven't...would you please." "If you haven't picked up your clothes/brought down your dishes, will you please do that now so that I can wash them?" (Or so that I can finish the job I'm working on or so that I can get that off my mind, or whatever the reason is that it needs to be done at that time.) If he doesn't go check, you can ask him to please get up to see if his clothes have been picked up because you're doing laundry now or because you want to make sure the dishes are clean for the next meal. Routines help my procrastinating dd tremendously. If you ask him to do a dishes check every night before the kitchen is cleaned, it might be easier for him to get it done. My lovely dd has great intentions, but putting off tasks until later is a horrible idea for her because procrastination becomes the standard, and things get put off indefinitely. If we create routines for her, those tasks just get done at that time of day or in a particular sequence, which makes it easier to remember and harder to put off. I'm able to offer prompts (like "It's time to bring dishes down and I don't see any dishes down here yet, so will you please check?") instead of asking a yes/no question. The other piece is, be very careful what you choose to make an issue. Let him feel the consequences of his actions. If he has his own room and the clothes aren't picked up, he can close the door. If he can't find things, oh well. If he runs out of clean clothes, not your problem. He's been given the opportunity to take care of the clothes and has chosen not to do so, and now he can wash his own clothes when the washer is free. If he doesn't bring down the dishes at the appointed time, he's responsible for washing them himself later. I know that doesn't seem directly related to honesty, but those kinds of consequences put the responsibility for making sure a task has been done in the first place squarely where it belongs, on his shoulders, and takes the questioning out of the equation entirely. :) Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Can he agree to trust that you know better than he does in this area? Can he agree to submit to your help in learning new, honest habits? If he cannot, then you might need to consider a new living situation for him. If he can, though, then follow through on the natural consequences as you would a younger child. He no longer has the option to let you know he'll take care of something at a later time. He must do it right away, period. There will be no taking the dishes down next time--he must do it right now. For things that cannot be done immediately for whatever reason, the two of you will have to agree on a time for him to do it, at which point he does it under your specific supervision. Each and every time, he must prove his honesty to you. As long as he submits sweetly, keep going. If he rebels against this or is rude, you have to consider a different situation for him. Dishonesty is a major big deal--it would be a dealbreaker for me if he couldn't wholeheartedly agree to address this together. You might also consider adding in push-ups as well. Every time he is dishonest, he does ten push-ups. It's just a little thing that will help reinforce your training. You don't have to be mean about it at all--sweet and encouraging is fine, with reminders that doing these silly push-ups will remind him to remember to be honest. Don't cajole him to do the push-ups--you should be able to unemotionally point out the dishonesty, say "You'll have to give me 10, buddy," and he should drop right down and do it. If he cannot submit knowing that you love him and he can trust you in this area, then you might have to consider more intervention. Is he in counseling? Or is he in a discipleship relationship with a godly man? If not, I highly recommend it. Doing Bible study and working alongside a godly man can help enormously, if your boy has a willing heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted December 17, 2008 Author Share Posted December 17, 2008 His mom kicked him out after he failed for a few months to look for and find work. He lived in the streets for 6 months, then came to us. Tough love requires love too and this kid has been so shut off from people, and the world, for so much of his childhood that he doesn't react to things like more normal kids would. I don't want to try it again-it didn't work the first time. Besides, he has a job and has been doing OK with it for 4 months. So there is progress. My gut tells me this is partly about his lack of trust in other people. I think a person needs to feel love, and be attached to other people to care if they are disappointed in him. We're getting there, but this one issue is a biggie for me. Maybe what I need is some coaching on how to demonstrate love toward an older kid who is pretty "shut down" and not able to feel much of anything. I guess I know it gets through, but it can be hard to tell. Any other thoughts on this? Your responses are very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Maybe what I need is some coaching on how to demonstrate love toward an older kid who is pretty "shut down" and not able to feel much of anything. I guess I know it gets through, but it can be hard to tell. Any other thoughts on this? Your responses are very helpful. Figure out his love language just as you would an adult. Surprise him with a little gift and tell him it made you think of him. Rub his shoulders or ruffle his hair and watch his reaction. Smile often. Call him sweetie. Bring him a snack when he looks tired. Compliment his work ethic. When he does follow through and bring his dishes down, kiss him on the cheek and thank him. Pay attention to see what he responds to or what makes him embarrassed but secretly pleased and then try to do more of those things. Pull him in. At 19 I doubt he's fully shut down and unable to feel anything unless he's been seriously abused (which I don't believe he has by your post)...but he does have walls built up. Here is a book I saw at Barnes and Noble the other day: http://www.amazon.com/How-Hug-Porcupine-Negotiating-Prickly/dp/0071545891/ref=pd_sim_b_2 It's called How to Hug a Porcupine and although it's geared toward parents of tweens, I think it may be helpful since his emotional development seems little delayed. You may gain some insight. Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 His mom kicked him out after he failed for a few months to look for and find work. He lived in the streets for 6 months, then came to us. Tough love requires love too and this kid has been so shut off from people, and the world, for so much of his childhood that he doesn't react to things like more normal kids would. I don't want to try it again-it didn't work the first time. Besides, he has a job and has been doing OK with it for 4 months. So there is progress. My gut tells me this is partly about his lack of trust in other people. I think a person needs to feel love, and be attached to other people to care if they are disappointed in him. We're getting there, but this one issue is a biggie for me. Maybe what I need is some coaching on how to demonstrate love toward an older kid who is pretty "shut down" and not able to feel much of anything. I guess I know it gets through, but it can be hard to tell. Any other thoughts on this? Your responses are very helpful. He sounds like a foster kid. It's hard to know what to do with this person who is adult in some ways, and a toddler in others. I applaud you for recognizing his progress and determining to keep trying. As long as there is progress it is appropriate to remain "in there" with him. In many ways you have to remain observant and respond to what's there, minute-to-minute. Mother him like he's a little guy with hugs and sweet encouragements; back off non-emotionally when he pulls away from that. It's easy to say but hard to do because it's so constant, and because you hate to guess wrong. However, I would err on the side of being too affectionate than not. I find, with older kids, that being honest and matter-of-fact without being emotional goes a long way. The conversation starts with stating the problem. Can he agree that there is a problem? Can he agree to it even if he doesn't personally feel it--can he agree that there is a problem because he trusts you? Then you go from there to the proposed solution. In a case like habitual lying, I think the solution will be a lot of behavior training on a day-to-day basis rather than the more abrupt solution of having him move out (although that option should always be there if he chooses to stop making progress forward). I want to say again that I applaud your trying to stand in as a surrogate parent--it's probably his last chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyof4ks Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 His mom kicked him out after he failed for a few months to look for and find work. He lived in the streets for 6 months, then came to us. Tough love requires love too and this kid has been so shut off from people, and the world, for so much of his childhood that he doesn't react to things like more normal kids would. I don't want to try it again-it didn't work the first time. Besides, he has a job and has been doing OK with it for 4 months. So there is progress. My gut tells me this is partly about his lack of trust in other people. I think a person needs to feel love, and be attached to other people to care if they are disappointed in him. We're getting there, but this one issue is a biggie for me. Maybe what I need is some coaching on how to demonstrate love toward an older kid who is pretty "shut down" and not able to feel much of anything. I guess I know it gets through, but it can be hard to tell. Any other thoughts on this? Your responses are very helpful. When I read your original post I wondered why he was living with you and figured it was something like this. It may be that for now just don't give him an opportunity to lie until he learns to love and trust others again. Hopefully this job will help him start to feel better about himself again also. It sounds like he does not care about himself, so it is going to be hard for him to care what you think KWIM?. Perhaps for now you could just explain what you expect, and then show him you love him by doing things and supporting things that he enjoys. If he feels important, secure and loved, then he will be more willing to not only follow your rules, but he will begin to accept them as part of himself (not lie to others because he feels it is wrong rather than just because you told him not too). Good luck, it is hard, but it can be done. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJB Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) Maybe what I need is some coaching on how to demonstrate love toward an older kid who is pretty "shut down" and not able to feel much of anything. I guess I know it gets through, but it can be hard to tell. Any other thoughts on this? Your responses are very helpful. Most kids at 19 have no idea what they are doing. If you could somehow inspire him or guide him to a bigger and better life, you'd be genuinely showing him love. It sounds like he needs something to care about. As long as he's not doing anything to better himself for his life, he's going to be restless and probably remain "shut down". What's that song about teenage wasteland? Kids so easily get caught up in the nothingness of young adulthood. Before they know it they turn 30 with nothing to show for their 12 years of adulthood. I'd figure out what he wants to do (and I don't mean flipping burgers or whatever job he's found for himself now unless his current job is an apprenticeship of some sort or has a possible future for him) and help him make it happen. If he has no ideas of his own, I'd suggest options until I was blue in the face. The military is often a great option for a kid like him, too, btw. Let him know that you are going to help him make his dream happen. Living with you should be about enabling him to get on his own two feet and become a man. I would bet if he got some of these issues worked out, he'd care more about disappointing you. Edited December 18, 2008 by KJB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 naturally at first but he responds to it and I am getting much better at it. Your ideas are very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 Thanks so much for the encouragement. It really helps me on days like this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 He is close to my dh, but dh is having trouble "staying the course" with him-he's just fed up with not seeing as rapid progress as he hoped for. I am going to encourage dh more to spend time with him and show him lots of love and warmth. It does worlds of good when he does. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBH Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 Just as Strider mentioned this in her post, I encourage you to introduce him to a godly man who loves the Lord. He needs to be in a Bible study with someone who can show him the love of Christ. Perhaps other than you and your husband he has never been loved before. I did not have a rough life like your nephew, but I know the Lord and His word (the Bible) changed my life. There is Bible Study Fellowship all over the U.S. for free. They have men's and women's groups on Monday nights as well as Wednesdy mornings. If you would like more information, I can contact their headquarters and see if they have a Bible study in your area. It is a life changing study. I will certainly be in prayer for him and your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 He is close to my dh, but dh is having trouble "staying the course" with him-he's just fed up with not seeing as rapid progress as he hoped for. I am going to encourage dh more to spend time with him and show him lots of love and warmth. It does worlds of good when he does. Thanks. It takes much longer than anyone thinks it will. Two steps forward and one step back--and those steps are usually baby steps. People in these situations are also prey to thoughts like, "He should know . . . " or even, "By now he should know . . ." Guard against this trap. Don't assume a person knows things unless you have explicitly trained them yourself. And, remember how hard it is for a healthy, functioning adult to form new habits--it's even harder for a kid who has been raised in dysfunctional circumstances. It is appropriate to expect effort and progress--but yes, it takes longer and goes slower than you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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