Rod and staff for Writing and Grammar for a busy time or something else?

[countrymum]

We are just getting busier with 5 kids 1-11. As much as I love to do lots of 1 on 1 teaching I can't get it all in. How about using Rod and Staff for Writing and Grammar? I also try to get in written narration about 1x a week a long with history for 6th and 4th. Science is Apologia with notebooks now. Any thoughts? My kids do not love school. We do just fine, but would rather be doing outdoor chores especially the oldest. 

 

What about climbing to good English or Learning Language Arts through Literature? Any thoughts or comparisons?

 

 

Just to clarify, we do history much more than 1x a week...that is just the outline and written narration. We do oral narration more than that as well.

Edited November 2, 2022 by countrymum

[lulalu]

Rod and Staff is very thorough with grammar. And the writing instruction builds well each year. That would be a solid plan to use. We use it and love it. Many people use English and another writing because they haven't looked at all the levels. It does a great job of building each year. 

Just keep in mind that it doesn't assign writing over and over in just the English. So you will learn how to write a report, oral reports, letters, etc. But then you will need to assign more outside of English to keep practicing as only one was assigned in English. 

[Nm.]

Nm

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nm.

[SilverMoon]

I know R&S was written to be independent, but the lessons my older kids did on their own versus the ones where I taught the lessons and did the oral drill with them, were like two entirely different children turned in assignments. We had so much more correcting and back tracking even they were on their own that I swore it off. 🙃 

With hindsight, if I were in that place again with a pile of littles I'd go with Growing With Grammar and Winning With Writing instead. 

Depending on their skill level the 6th grader might be ready for doing Grammar for the Well Trained Mind independently. My 6th grader has been working through one this year. But the elementary version, First Language Lessons, is parent heavy. GWG and WWW will give you continuity. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by SilverMoon

[countrymum]

I was planning to teach it. Would 15 min per kid per lesson work? That I can do and expect to do. I just can't get in all the individualized lessons in written narration and outlining in. I will add in what I can, but I need a curriculum with a brief lesson from me then independent practice. My kids particularly my oldest hate anything that tries to be sure or funny....

[Nm.]

Nm

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nm.

[SilverMoon]

5 hours ago, countrymum said:

I was planning to teach it. Would 15 min per kid per lesson work? That I can do and expect to do. I just can't get in all the individualized lessons in written narration and outlining in. I will add in what I can, but I need a curriculum with a brief lesson from me then independent practice. My kids particularly my oldest hate anything that tries to be sure or funny....

I don't think any of the ones I mentioned could be seen as silly. My 6th grader is a "just teach me what to do and let me do it" kind of kid and I'd use/have used all of it with him. 

15 minutes is likely enough for the little ones, but the oldest one would probably need to read the lesson independently to have time to do the oral drill with you. Most diagramming lessons would run over the time limit. 

[Nm.]

Nm

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nm.

[countrymum]

I wasn't trying to say something else was silly. My son really dislikes Wordsmith Apprentices because it was trying to be "fun".... He likes the looks of Rod and Staff because of the Bible and farming themes. He likes both of those....since he's my hardest one to fit, I think maybe I'll try Rod and Staff. I may combine both into 4th grade though. I have 2, 4, 5, and 6 on order to look at. I found some used. I like Analytical Grammar and have it, but it is pushing him a bit. I also like the premise of Jump In, but totally not yet. 

 

We lean Charlotte Mason too. I can get good oral narration out of the older 2, but trying to get the oldest into written narration and outlining is so mom intensive and time consuming.....Maybe we will be there sometime. I almost think his writing was better a few years back....

[Nm.]

nm.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nm.

[Ellie]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:42 AM, countrymum said:

We are just getting busier with 5 kids 1-11. As much as I love to do lots of 1 on 1 teaching I can't get it all in. How about using Rod and Staff for Writing and Grammar? I also try to get in written narration about 1x a week a long with history for 6th and 4th. Science is Apologia with notebooks now. Any thoughts? My kids do not love school. We do just fine, but would rather be doing outdoor chores especially the oldest. 

What about climbing to good English or Learning Language Arts through Literature? Any thoughts or comparisons?

Just to clarify, we do history much more than 1x a week...that is just the outline and written narration. We do oral narration more than that as well.

ITA with Lovinglife123: Don't do R&S English orally. The actual *writing* is so important! If you think there's too much writing, then probably you should do something else rather than water it down by doing it orally.

I will say that R&S English is dry. Just putting that out there. 🙂 But it's also very effective.

I prefer R&S English over Climbing to Good English because it is not a workbook. I think having to write on actual paper is superior to writing in workbooks (for English). Long-time users of LLATL seem to be happy with the results, but it always looked kind of weak to me. You'd have to review *all the books* to see if you think it covers enough in the long wrong.

For myself, I would tend to use the original Writing Strands (OOP, but you can still find it), and Easy Grammar, maybe Easy Writing thrown in for good measure. 

[countrymum]

Thanks Ellie.  I think my son needs the just plain writing work...maybe drop a grade or 2 but do it all. He thinks it looks nice. He thinks school should just get done and he likes the plain text;)  My daughter finds pictures distracting.  I have the origional writing strands. My mother in law has used it some with the kids...maybe I'll try to do some too. I used it a bit myself many years ago....

 

I am open to other suggestions and ideas still. I love to hear from older mothers;) I am not all set in stone yet. I am looking at everything.

[countrymum]

On 11/1/2022 at 4:57 PM, lulalu said:

Rod and Staff is very thorough with grammar. And the writing instruction builds well each year. That would be a solid plan to use. We use it and love it. Many people use English and another writing because they haven't looked at all the levels. It does a great job of building each year. 

Just keep in mind that it doesn't assign writing over and over in just the English. So you will learn how to write a report, oral reports, letters, etc. But then you will need to assign more outside of English to keep practicing as only one was assigned in English. 

What levels have you used....just curious.

[lulalu]

53 minutes ago, countrymum said:

What levels have you used....just curious.

With my DS we have used 3-5. I tutored one student through 7th about 12 years ago. I own 3-8 and have looked through them all. 

[Ellie]

On 11/1/2022 at 3:57 PM, lulalu said:

Just keep in mind that it doesn't assign writing over and over in just the English. So you will learn how to write a report, oral reports, letters, etc. But then you will need to assign more outside of English to keep practicing as only one was assigned in English. 

Well, of course. 🙂 Reports and whatnot would ordinarily be written in science or history, because what would you write a report about in English? (other than, say, a term paper, but that isn't usually a frequent assignment, is it?). You learn how to do the thing in English, and then you use the thing for other subjects.

[Nm.]

Nm

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nm.

[Ellie]

25 minutes ago, Lovinglife123 said:

 We should probably delineate parental ability far more than student ability when looking for suggestions.

This right here.

[Brittany1116]

We use and love Rod and Staff English. I have one in 7 and have used it since 2. It does build, it is thorough, it can be done largely but not entirely orally. My preferred method for written work after years using it is to buy the worksheets and only have him do written assignments on the days he doesn't have a worksheet. Next year I will have one in 2 and one in 8.

Edited to add: the composition is okay. I added IEW this year for a little more instruction.

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Brittany1116

[2_girls_mommy]

I have only used Rod and Staff for English all of my homeschooling.  I think that yes, for the most part, you can count on 15 min. of your time or less to go over the lesson, at least in the early years.  My kids always did all of the writing in R&S composition exercises, but I do other types of writing over the years too... narration, dictation, journaling, outlining, etc, but not all of the time, every year.  Some years that we were working on outlining I might have added it in once a month or so.  Narration/dictation once a week or so somewhere in there.  There is plenty of copywork daily in R&S.  I have never assigned all of the written exercises.  We might do the oral parts together, then I might assign the odds from one section and go over the next section orally if it is about a skill that is easily demonstrated orally.  I just make the call daily as I scan the day's lesson, no prep needed. 

[lulalu]

12 hours ago, Ellie said:

Well, of course. 🙂 Reports and whatnot would ordinarily be written in science or history, because what would you write a report about in English? (other than, say, a term paper, but that isn't usually a frequent assignment, is it?). You learn how to do the thing in English, and then you use the thing for other subjects.

Yes, I think one of the reasons many people say it is weak in writing instruction is that other programs that focus specifically on writing have assignments that last all year or an assignment each week. Rod and Staff does the teaching not the assigning. And I think most people miss that important little part. 

[Ellie]

5 hours ago, lulalu said:

Yes, I think one of the reasons many people say it is weak in writing instruction is that other programs that focus specifically on writing have assignments that last all year or an assignment each week. Rod and Staff does the teaching not the assigning. And I think most people miss that important little part. 

Yes, and also, many people tend to do the work orally, instead of writing, and the truth is that *all writing* counts as *writing,* even if the actual assignment isn't in the "writing" section. There is a boatload of writing in R&S English, if people would just take the time to even read through the table of contents to see what's there.

[Servant4Christ]

On 11/3/2022 at 10:34 AM, 2_girls_mommy said:

I have never assigned all of the written exercises.  We might do the oral parts together, then I might assign the odds from one section and go over the next section orally if it is about a skill that is easily demonstrated orally.  I just make the call daily as I scan the day's lesson, no prep needed. 

This.

I have Oldest do the composition assignments, but I've learned to modify them. Sometimes I change the subject he is to write about, still using whatever skill is being taught. Other times, I have him type his composition which makes it easier for him to edit. I tend to reserve the worksheets for review of weak areas that need more practice. R&S also has composition assignments scheduled throughout their reading curriculum, which we are using for the first time this year. I really was surprised by how much I like it.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Servant4Christ

[Nm.]

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Edited September 17, 2023 by Nm.

[Servant4Christ]

16 hours ago, Lovinglife123 said:

😅wow I am not the only one who LOVES their reading (grade 5&up).  I felt it completed the writing perfectly! I only schedule it 1x a week, and doing grade 5 in 6th.  It has SO much packed in it.  

We are doing the grade 6 program in 6th, completing 2 stories a week. I spread out each story over 2 days. In the workbook, he completes the vocab skills sections on the first day and the reading skills sections on the second day. No stories/workbook assignments on a week with a composition and test. I allow 2-3 days per composition assignment to allow the process of brainstorm/first draft and edit/finalize. He typically gets to use the computer to type composition assignments because he's much more willing to elaborate if he isn't physically writing. I really like the program. It's definitely challenging, but it works well for us and really does show me where his English skills are being applied or are in need of more practice.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Servant4Christ

[countrymum]

That is interesting to hear about the reading curriculum. What kind of stories are in it?

[lulalu]

4 hours ago, Servant4Christ said:

We are doing the grade 6 program in 6th, completing 2 stories a week. I spread out each story over 2 days. In the workbook, he completes the vocab skills sections on the first day and the reading skills sections on the second day. No stories/workbook assignments on a week with a composition and test. I allow 2-3 days per composition assignment to allow the process of brainstorm/first draft and edit/finalize. He typically gets to use the computer to type composition assignments because he's much more willing to elaborate if he isn't physically writing. I really like the program. It's definitely challenging, but it works well for us and really does show me where his English skills are being applied or are in need of more practice.

Do you need the teacher's manual for reading in 5-8th? 

[Servant4Christ]

1 hour ago, lulalu said:

Do you need the teacher's manual for reading in 5-8th? 

Yes. It's the answer key to the workbook questions and tests along with other helps and discussion tips. You could opt for the older version which is only the student reader and a softcover TM with answers to the comprehension questions that are at the end of each story in the student reader. I initially bought them thinking it was the way to go because it's not consumable like workbooks. Turns out that what I personally was looking for in a reading curriculum isn't covered in the older version but is covered (and covered well) in the newer version... things like story elements, literary techniques and devices, archaic words and more are all covered in the workbook format.

[Servant4Christ]

5 hours ago, countrymum said:

That is interesting to hear about the reading curriculum. What kind of stories are in it?

Some really interesting ones, imo. A story about Helen Keller and a story about the history of the macintosh apple are recent ones we've read. If you look at the previews at milestonebooks, you can read a story from each grade. No fairy tales, fantasy, or sci-fi, but wholesome and interesting stories nonetheless. There is a story that will come later this year about an Anabaptist man martyred for being rebaptized, but it's done tastefully. I was so intrigued by the story when I was perusing it over the summer that I looked up the actually history and time period. 

Disclaimer: I do not plan on using the 9th grade Reading as the stories are much more Anabaptist-focused in content.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Servant4Christ

[Nm.]

.

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nm.

[Servant4Christ]

On 11/10/2022 at 11:57 AM, Lovinglife123 said:

I also like the stories and I love that we aren’t picking apart books he loves.

I don’t have teachers guide for fifth, is that where the composition is?  I haven’t looked closely at it all.  He has just been doing workbook, but I love that he’s really having to think to write the answers.

For composition assignments, the TM tells you what to discuss with the student about the verse or subject to be written about. Then it reminds you to refer the student to the last page in their workbook so they can see for themselves how they will be graded after completion.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Servant4Christ

[2_girls_mommy]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:12 PM, Lovinglife123 said:

😅wow I am not the only one who LOVES their reading (grade 5&up).  I felt it completed the writing perfectly! I only schedule it 1x a week, and doing grade 5 in 6th.  It has SO much packed in it.  

So now I want to check it out.  I always did the 1st grade reading and workbooks and then stopped.  Now I think I might have missed out. 🙂

[Ellie]

On 11/9/2022 at 5:35 PM, Servant4Christ said:

 If you look at the previews at milestonebooks, you can read a story from each grade.

 

You can also request the samples, free of charge, from the publisher; you just have to call them at (606) 522-4348. Request a scope and sequence at the same time.

I prefer the hard-copy samples and whatnot, because sometimes I want to hold something in my hand and look at it instead of scrolling on my computer. 🙂

[Servant4Christ]

18 hours ago, Ellie said:

You can also request the samples, free of charge, from the publisher; you just have to call them at (606) 522-4348. Request a scope and sequence at the same time.

I prefer the hard-copy samples and whatnot, because sometimes I want to hold something in my hand and look at it instead of scrolling on my computer. 🙂

Yes this! Thanks for reminding me Ellie. I keep the hard copy samples on hand, as well, but they aren't available for grades 7 & 8 which is why I mentioned looking at milestones website.