Math and Science Guidance for Rising Sophomore

[mightygirlmom]

Hello,

I'm looking for course advice for my rising sophomore. This is a lengthy post, but I received new information over the weekend that supports needing to make a last minute change in Math this year.  I also want to ensure she is taking the right courses to be considered by selective schools as we move forward. She is likely a liberal arts or fine arts student, but we want to leave the door open for STEM. The path forward for Math and Science is where we are more uncertain. Most critical is that her 9th grade PSAT seems to reveal a retention gap in her math even though she demonstrated mastery in the APOS algorithm. We believe it is time to change directions in terms of choosing another curriculum and we are not quite sure what level we should take for her sophomore year. She has earned all As with the exception of one C (see below). Milestones we'd like her to reach are the College Board's African American Scholar Distinction, AP Scholar and Phi Theta Kappa for her DE studies. Finally she is passionate about Theater and is working towards a Theater Certification at our local arts academy. We are also considering bypassing the PSAT this year and focusing on her AP courses and tests this year. We want this to be a year where we bring the joy and confidence back into her STEM subjects as we have had her in some higher pressure situations than we realized after the fact.

Here is what we have taken/planned (PL) in her core subjects:

8th
Highschool Latin 1
Honors World History
Art of Problem Solving Algebra (1 and 2)

9th

English 1301
English 1302
Art of Problem Solving Geometry
Highschool Latin 2
Honors US History
DE Biology 1406 (we took enrolled her in the premed track by mistake- she earned a C largely due to unseasoned study and time management skills. We were advised to consider retaking this her senior year. Thoughts?
PE Girls Volleyball
Theater Production and Jazz Dance for Fine Arts Credit

10th

Highschool Chemistry
New curriculum Algebra 2 or DE Algebra?
Highschool French 1
DE Creative Writing
AP Human Geography (this semester)
AP MicroEconomics (PL)
Theater Electives

11th

Physics Highschool or DE Physics for Liberal Arts Majors?
Precalculus Highschool or DE?
DE Literature Course
DE French 1
DE French 2
DE GOVT 2305
Possibly AP Macroeconomics?
Theater Electives

12th
Science Looking for Guidance on 4th Science Credit Astronomy?
Math Looking for Guidance
Electives comprised of Theater and Liberal Arts
Health and Safety Elective

Thanks so much for your thoughts on any gaps or opportunities moving forward.

Warm Regards

[Miguelsmom]

You may want to look at the APID
Here's a list of pass rates
If I had a do over button I would do DE math every semester and DE science every year But in your daughters case I would take AP Studio Art: 2-D Design, Studio Art: 3-D Design, Studio Art: Drawing

 Year 10

•  Government & Politics Comparative AP
• AP Bio
•  Art and Design: Drawing AP
• DE math (each semester)
• DE creative writing
• Foreign language

Year 11

• AP Art History
• AP stats
• AP Studio Art: 2-D
• foreign language
• DE elective
• DE chemistry 

Year 12

• AP language
• DE Social studies 
• DE Physics
• AP English lit
• DE math (x 2)
• AP Art and Design: 3-D

That will give her 9 AP courses letting her have both rigor and advanced art classes but know after my son's first AP course (9th grade) he decided against AP. He switched to full DE and did wonderfully. DE was easier because it wasn't based on one test. 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Miguelsmom

[Lilaclady]

I will not really recommend the oft mentioned course sequence. I don’t think your dd will benefit from taking so many AP’s. I think her performance in the DE biology course should be taken into account. She should retake the class if the college Allows it and will replace the grade. She is not likely to do well with such an intense workload and it won’t serve any purpose other than to burn her out. 
she only needs 3 Ap course to be an AP scholar. There is no more National Ap scholar etc and I don’t think the designations carry much weight except with schools that are test optional. 
you also need to consider that most selective schools want students to take a math and a Lang art every year of high school. You have that she has taken English 1301

and 1302 but there are no more Lang arts taken in high school. Most selective schools will want to see at least 2 more Lang arts 

if she has taken AOPS algebra 1 and 2, there is no need to take college algebra again. If she did not retain it, then do a thorough overview of algebra and geometry this year using another text like Forrester, Jacob’s or Brown. And then in 11th she can take precalc and 12, statistics. If she is inclined to STEM then she should take calculus in 12th.

 

[Clemsondana]

If your student doesn't have a firm grasp of the algebra content, then I would definitely choose an algebra of some sort for 10th.  You can do it at home, call it algebra 2, and target it towards filling in gaps, or I suppose you could choose to DE college algebra.  I'm not clear on what your goal is with the DE classes, and that may affect how you choose to plan.  If the goal is to DE because it will allow your student to earn credits to complete college earlier, then college algebra might count towards a liberal arts degree but would not help with most STEM programs.  If you just want to outsource the teaching, then DE might be a good fit, but a high school course like Derek Owens math might also work.  The same is true of pre-cal.  By 12th grade, your student will probably have a better idea of whether they are headed towards STEM or elsewhere, and you can choose their senior math based on that.  I recently talked to a private school principal who taught math, and she said that AP statistics is a lovely course but it rarely does much for you in college since there are discipline-specific stats classes that students usually need.  So, if you choose to go the stats route, you might be able to DE something that is actually useful to your student.  

You also may be loading in more social science than is needed.  It's fine if your student is interested, but you've got US history, human geography, micro, macro, and DE government.  Gov and Econ are often 1/2 credit each, but 1 semester of DE, and presumably an AP, could be a full credit.  There also is no world history unless human geography serves that purpose.  

For senior year science, I'd say that there is no need to choose now.  You'll have a better idea of what fits your student's needs and interests as they get closer to 12th grade.  DE astronomy is certainly an OK to have on a transcript.  If your student ends up in a STEM field, then they will likely want to take relevant courses.  By that point you'll know whether to build on something that they've already done or to take something unrelated, like astronomy or geology.  

I'll also add that taking almost everything AP and DE, and front-loading all of the requirements while saving most electives until senior year, might lead to burnout. I have an academically oriented advanced kid, and while I think that they could have handled that plan I don't think that they would have enjoyed it and it would not have left a lot of time for extracurriculars.  We are geared more towards sports and academic competitions, but we know theater people and it's a time-consuming activity. 

 

[Miguelsmom]

The thing is she needs 2 AP classes this year. 5+ AP classes by the time she graduates if she's going after the the College Board's African American Scholar Distinction, and AP Scholar. If she's a fine arts student she may enjoy the AP art classes. If she goes for the APID there's specific tests she needs to take. And if she does a fine arts degree those classes will help. I think the OP is looking to show rigor not the most transferable classes. I maybe wrong and if I am As much De as possible to make it transferable especially if grad school is a thought.

 

[Frances]

I echo much if what @Clemsondana and @Lilacladyhave already said. The most important thing is to be sure her math skills are strong, especially Algebra. Has she taken a math placement test for DE? I’d find a new math program and focus this year on getting to an absolutely solid place for Algebra I, II, and Geometry. Then if she is ready, I would do Pre-Calc as a junior, either at home or DE, and then Calc or Stats senior year depending on her direction at that point.

Is she planning to do 2 DE French classes her senior year? Since she’s starting with French 1 her junior year, you might want to consider this as some selective schools want four years of the same foreign language and I’m not sure how they would view this year’s French if she plans to start at the beginning next year when doing DE.

Did English 1301 and 1302 include both literature and writing? I’m a bit concerned about only creative writing this year, but less concerned if the prior two classes had a literature component. I’m assuming the DE Literature course will have a significant writing component. I would try and make sure you end up with the equivalent of some literature and writing each year.

For science, I wouldn’t worry about a senior year class at this point, just wait and see what her interests are at that time and also whether or not she wants to try for a better Bio grade.

You could potentially cut back on some social studies, unless that is an area of special interest.

Personally, I would make sure she had a solid four years on the core subjects and then add electives to focus on her special interests, like theatre. I think combining DE and AP can be a bit intense and a recipe for burnout, but each student is different. I agree with others that I don’t think the AP awards carry much weight, so wouldn’t be overly focused on that if DE works well for her. Or conversely, do AP, but not DE.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Frances

[Clemsondana]

1 hour ago, Miguelsmom said:

The thing is she needs 2 AP classes this year. 5+ AP classes by the time she graduates if she's going after the the College Board's African American Scholar Distinction, and AP Scholar. If she's a fine arts student she may enjoy the AP art classes. If she goes for the APID there's specific tests she needs to take. And if she does a fine arts degree those classes will help. I think the OP is looking to show rigor not the most transferable classes. I maybe wrong and if I am As much De as possible to make it transferable especially if grad school is a thought.

 

I'd agree that if she needs 5 APs, then I'd try to do some of them in areas that she's interested in like the arts ones rather than taking a bunch of social science classes if she isn't interested in those subjects.  If her interest is more theater than art, then I'm not sure what would be the best fit.  But, I haven't gotten the impression that any of the AP awards are impressive enough to make it worthwhile to take APs that aren't otherwise helpful or interesting to the student.  Others may have a different perspective or goals.  

[8filltheheart]

19 hours ago, mightygirlmom said:

Hello,

I'm looking for course advice for my rising sophomore. This is a lengthy post, but I received new information over the weekend that supports needing to make a last minute change in Math this year.  I also want to ensure she is taking the right courses to be considered by selective schools as we move forward. She is likely a liberal arts or fine arts student, but we want to leave the door open for STEM. The path forward for Math and Science is where we are more uncertain. Most critical is that her 9th grade PSAT seems to reveal a retention gap in her math even though she demonstrated mastery in the APOS algorithm. We believe it is time to change directions in terms of choosing another curriculum and we are not quite sure what level we should take for her sophomore year. She has earned all As with the exception of one C (see below). Milestones we'd like her to reach are the College Board's African American Scholar Distinction, AP Scholar and Phi Theta Kappa for her DE studies. Finally she is passionate about Theater and is working towards a Theater Certification at our local arts academy. We are also considering bypassing the PSAT this year and focusing on her AP courses and tests this year. We want this to be a year where we bring the joy and confidence back into her STEM subjects as we have had her in some higher pressure situations than we realized after the fact.

Here is what we have taken/planned (PL) in her core subjects:

8th
Highschool Latin 1
Honors World History
Art of Problem Solving Algebra (1 and 2)

9th

English 1301
English 1302
Art of Problem Solving Geometry
Highschool Latin 2
Honors US History
DE Biology 1406 (we took enrolled her in the premed track by mistake- she earned a C largely due to unseasoned study and time management skills. We were advised to consider retaking this her senior year. Thoughts?
PE Girls Volleyball
Theater Production and Jazz Dance for Fine Arts Credit

10th

Highschool Chemistry
New curriculum Algebra 2 or DE Algebra?
Highschool French 1
DE Creative Writing
AP Human Geography (this semester)
AP MicroEconomics (PL)
Theater Electives

11th

Physics Highschool or DE Physics for Liberal Arts Majors?
Precalculus Highschool or DE?
DE Literature Course
DE French 1
DE French 2
DE GOVT 2305
Possibly AP Macroeconomics?
Theater Electives

12th
Science Looking for Guidance on 4th Science Credit Astronomy?
Math Looking for Guidance
Electives comprised of Theater and Liberal Arts
Health and Safety Elective

Thanks so much for your thoughts on any gaps or opportunities moving forward.

Warm Regards

I have several thoughts.  First, did she complete both AoPS alg and intermediate?  Bc if she didn't, what gaps are you seeing.  AoPS alg is not the equivalent of a full alg 2 course.  It covers part of a typical alg 2 course, but not as much as most courses cover. If she did take both, what specifically did her testing reveal as gaps?  

FWIW, I would rethink a lot of what you have listed.  Her courses seem all over the place and lacking in direction/cohesion.  I would also step back and evaluate the goals in the decisions.  Rushing forward does not seem to be serving her well.  If she took both alg and intermediate in 8th grade and geometry in 9th but her test scores show math weaknesses and combine that with the C in DE bio, that tells me that she should be focusing on being a high school student and solidifying her base than throwing darts in every direction and hoping something sticks.   

[Malam]

On 8/21/2022 at 11:39 PM, mightygirlmom said:

Most critical is that her 9th grade PSAT seems to reveal a retention gap in her math even though she demonstrated mastery in the APOS algorithm

If this is her only math "weakness", I wouldn't let it hinder her math progress. The PSAT is not designed to accurately measure retention, it's meant to stratify students. Any achievement gaps should be attributed to insufficient PSAT-specific test prep, unless you know otherwise from other performance. If you want prep resources, I can send you some

To be frank, it's fairly common for students to lose algebra skills over the course of a geometry class, especially when their geometry class is more focused on proofs (e.g. this stuff, which is what AOPS focuses on) than on applying algebra to geometric problems (which are the focus of less-rigorous geometry classes and are tested on the PSAT/SAT). By AOPS algorithm do you mean Alcumus?

Has she taken any placement tests for precalculus or algebra 2, or your local college's accuplacer?

According to this page, she only needs a 3 or higher in two AP exams in one year (or top 10% PSAT score). If she does it this year she'll be recognized in her junior year. Then since she's a homeschooled student, she'll need to self nominate

Regarding planning AP exams that far in advance, it's difficult since students' interests can change drastically from year to year. Maybe she'll love chem and want to take AP chem as a junior, or maybe she'll hate it. Regarding bio, if she improves her study skills and retakes it as a junior, that can help demonstrate an upward trend and leave senior year for calculus-based physics or some other science (which she'll be better equipped to choose as a rising senior than as a rising sophomore). One thing to look at could be AP Psychology - given her interest in theater, she'll hopefully find it more interesting than AP Micro

17 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

It covers part of a typical alg 2 course, but not as much as most courses cover.

Just curious, what topics does AoPS Intro to Algebra leave out that most Algebra 2 courses cover? I ask because I know of at least one person who's kids went straight from AoPS Intro Alg to a precalculus text with no problems

Edited August 23, 2022 by Malam

[8filltheheart]

4 hours ago, Malam said:

If this is her only math "weakness", I wouldn't let it hinder her math progress. The PSAT is not designed to accurately measure retention, it's meant to stratify students. Any achievement gaps should be attributed to insufficient PSAT-specific test prep, unless you know otherwise from other performance. If you want prep resources, I can send you some

To be frank, it's fairly common for students to lose algebra skills over the course of a geometry class, especially when their geometry class is more focused on proofs (e.g. this stuff, which is what AOPS focuses on) than on applying algebra to geometric problems (which are the focus of less-rigorous geometry classes and are tested on the PSAT/SAT). By AOPS algorithm do you mean Alcumus?

Has she taken any placement tests for precalculus or algebra 2, or your local college's accuplacer?

According to this page, she only needs a 3 or higher in two AP exams in one year (or top 10% PSAT score). If she does it this year she'll be recognized in her junior year. Then since she's a homeschooled student, she'll need to self nominate

Regarding planning AP exams that far in advance, it's difficult since students' interests can change drastically from year to year. Maybe she'll love chem and want to take AP chem as a junior, or maybe she'll hate it. Regarding bio, if she improves her study skills and retakes it as a junior, that can help demonstrate an upward trend and leave senior year for calculus-based physics or some other science (which she'll be better equipped to choose as a rising senior than as a rising sophomore). One thing to look at could be AP Psychology - given her interest in theater, she'll hopefully find it more interesting than AP Micro

Just curious, what topics does AoPS Intro to Algebra leave out that most Algebra 2 courses cover? I ask because I know of at least one person who's kids went straight from AoPS Intro Alg to a precalculus text with no problems

The PSAT is pretty low level math.  A low math PSAT score would definitely concern me if the reason for it was the actual math and not the testing scenario.

It has been a few yrs, so I can't remember specifically.  I did a quick search and this thread came up.  

  

[Farrar]

My first thought looking at that sequence is that colleges won't like that she didn't take English junior or senior year, even if she has enough English credits. Especially if she's leaning toward humanities.

My general feeling is that when families try to achieve rigor in several areas they usually fail from the college perspective. One of several things happens - the student looks basic because they have a bunch of things school students have. Or they look wonky because the college can't figure out what their actual interest is. Or the kids just burn out on something.

Also, while getting the CB's awards are good... they're not an end goal in and of themselves. What's the point of them if they actual make her end goals harder to get to?

[8filltheheart]

30 minutes ago, Farrar said:

My first thought looking at that sequence is that colleges won't like that she didn't take English junior or senior year, even if she has enough English credits. Especially if she's leaning toward humanities.

My general feeling is that when families try to achieve rigor in several areas they usually fail from the college perspective. One of several things happens - the student looks basic because they have a bunch of things school students have. Or they look wonky because the college can't figure out what their actual interest is. Or the kids just burn out on something.

Also, while getting the CB's awards are good... they're not an end goal in and of themselves. What's the point of them if they actual make her end goals harder to get to?

Those were my thoughts, too.  The course list is all over the place.  THere is no demonstrated strength in anything that is noteworthy.  I think that her chances of being competitive are being hindered by the approach, not enhanced.