11th grade son in IEP showing inconsistent results in Math

[chellacopter]

In PA. 11th grade son who has Math Learning Disability. ADHD Inattentive, Executive Functioning Issues, & Social Communication Disorder.

There are MANY issues with his IEP, but I will focus on Math. The following is almost an exact repeat of what happened last year.

Back story: He is receiving services for his math disability & progressed in middle school. He left 8th grade on level 5.3 Everything fell apart in Highschool. Freshmen at 5.8(progressed), Sophomore 5.3(regressed), Grade 11 they are “guessing” 6 grade level. they are supposed to run benchmark & assessments. They have not been doing them routinely, so their benchmarks could be off & he does not do well on longer assessment tests.  I do not rely on class grades because those grades are padded & students are allowed to correct mistakes with help & get higher grade.

On his last special ed progress report his has mastered his 6^th grade level goal 1^st quarter 100% accuracy, but the benchmarks show no meaningful progress. So, this made us question what is going on with him.

At our 1^st request, they were going to re-do the goal & they agreed it needed to be redone.  They didn’t.  We asked again 2^nd qtr. This was proposed:  “While Solving Equations/Operations of Polynomials and Factoring will accurately problem solve independently with 95% accuracy on 5 out of 6 assignments, assessed using daily and weekly work samples” this would occur in his pre-algebra class. the new goal did not have a baseline or grade level & I was told that works for grade school, but not high school because the equivalent could depend on the test used, the circumstances surrounding it. How can you measure progress without a baseline? “assignments & work samples” seem random & vague? So far this quarter,  he has completed 7 assignments at 100%. One can argue the goal has been met before it was implemented

he has not had a re-eval since 7th grade, so we requested a re-eval. They agreed to reevaluate. They also scheduled a meeting for Tuesday next week. So we are prepared, We asked for the bi-weekly probes done this year, CDT test results 9th grade to current, & any other tools used for progress monitoring.

Caseworker: We can pull up the CDT scores from the fall. I can see about his previous scores. I can ask-Math Teacher, if she would still have anything-work samples- from last semester but in most courses the teachers do not hold onto the old work.  I will ask Math teacher for the bi-weekly probes dates & results, other than that, she gave me a statement about how he did on the work during class.  The probe results are the progress reports, and the teacher tests would be a portion of his overall grade.

We are very upset over this, Show us the tangible data for his individualized instruction! If you can’t, it DID NOT happen.  we are jumping to conclusion that they weren’t doing them. He has been in remedial Math classes since 9^th grade & I honestly think they just teach the same thing to everyone. But this is not working. We feel he has such potential with the right services.

At this point, he  needs to be prepared for general ed Algebra 1 next year & for local community college where he will need an Algebra.

He seems to bounce up & down. I think for him, alot depends on teacher & their organization & delivery, if the kids in the class room cause distraction,  & maybe it's hard for them to get a decent baseline. Algebra is wide subject with many components & requires layers of building.  I understand it may be difficult to find a decent goal.What can anyone suggest as interventions & services?  Is there a better way to progress monitor?  What would be a decent goal , that can be measured that will get him to May where we will have his annual IEP review?  Could it be he needs very specific instruction that requires more one on one help?

 

 

 

[kbutton]

I am not great at knowing how IEP goals can be written to fulfill their purpose, but you are absolutely right that they need be measurable, etc. 

Is math the only academic class that is addressed in his IEP? What type of placement does he have for math? I know you said remedial, but around here, there are tiers of placement. How is he doing in other subjects? Do you feel he's in the least restrictive environment for his abilities and needs?

4 hours ago, chellacopter said:

he has not had a re-eval since 7th grade, so we requested a re-eval. They agreed to reevaluate. They also scheduled a meeting for Tuesday next week. So we are prepared, We asked for the bi-weekly probes done this year, CDT test results 9th grade to current, & any other tools used for progress monitoring.

Caseworker: We can pull up the CDT scores from the fall. I can see about his previous scores. I can ask-Math Teacher, if she would still have anything-work samples- from last semester but in most courses the teachers do not hold onto the old work.  I will ask Math teacher for the bi-weekly probes dates & results, other than that, she gave me a statement about how he did on the work during class.  The probe results are the progress reports, and the teacher tests would be a portion of his overall grade.

We are very upset over this, Show us the tangible data for his individualized instruction! If you can’t, it DID NOT happen.  we are jumping to conclusion that they weren’t doing them. He has been in remedial Math classes since 9^th grade & I honestly think they just teach the same thing to everyone. But this is not working. We feel he has such potential with the right services.

What is CDT? 

What goals do you have or does he have for himself? 

I know that quite a few people need to hire an advocate to get results, but I am trying to ask questions that will help us answer what we can for you. 

I think getting up-to-date assessments is crucial, especially since it's been put off for several years. 

4 hours ago, chellacopter said:

ADHD Inattentive, Executive Functioning Issues, & Social Communication Disorder

When I hear this triad, I think that he might benefit from strategies that work for people with ASD. 

4 hours ago, chellacopter said:

Could it be he needs very specific instruction that requires more one on one help?

This is very likely. There are some placements where, like you said, they seem to just teach everyone the same thing vs. individualizing instruction. 

I'm hoping others with more direct school experience will chime in.

[chellacopter]

CDT is an assessment used in PA.  The goal is for him to close as many gaps as possible, be able to succeed in gen ed Algebra 1 next year & then be prepared for college. Using the data they provide , he started freshman year at 5.3 level & is currently at 6, after 2.5 school yrs , yet meeting goals base don the short term assessment benchmarks.  Something is not adding up.  

He also gets social skills services, meeting all goals on paper, but has not made one friend while in high school.

He also mastered his writing goal in Literature so they are changing goal to see if it carried over in another subject.

 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, chellacopter said:

CDT is an assessment used in PA.

It it normally given yearly, per semester, or as needed? Is it for all students or just for kids receiving services or at risk?

If it's used to measure progress for an IEP, I think pushing to have it done more regularly is reasonable. 

1 hour ago, chellacopter said:

He also mastered his writing goal in Literature so they are changing goal to see if it carried over in another subject.

So he has supports in multiple classes even though his only LD is in math? Is he in a pullout literature program, a lit class that has an intervention person in it for the whole class, or a regular class with some modifications? Are his supports in this class for things like organization, for his social language issues, or some other reason? 

1 hour ago, chellacopter said:

Using the data they provide , he started freshman year at 5.3 level & is currently at 6, after 2.5 school yrs , yet meeting goals base don the short term assessment benchmarks.  Something is not adding up.  

It's not unusual for scores to bounce around when the help is not individualized. I think you are correct to be suspicious of that.  

 

I have some concerns that I'd like to be straight about, but I want you to understand that I think your instincts are spot on about how the IEP is being serviced. Things aren't adding up entirely. What I can't tell for sure is if people are being evasive and casual about this because they aren't doing their best or because they aren't inclined to be straightforward with you because they have news they think you don't want to hear. Are they being evasive because they really need to do better record keeping, but they generally get away with less than precise records? Have they written off significant potential progress for your son, and if so, why? Like any other profession, there are people that take the path of least resistance and those who tend to do their jobs creatively--there are also people that avoid uncomfortable conversations, including with parents. Sometimes people are just stuck in bad situations and putting one foot in front of the other due to lack of support in their jobs. Covid has also not been playing nice with schools in the last two years, so that makes a difference sometimes too.

In that vein...

Do you feel that he is working at his intellectual capacity or stuck below his intellectual capacity due to needing specialized services that he is not getting? I am hearing that it's likely the latter, and I wondered if he's had IQ testing in addition to academic testing. Has his only testing been through the school, or do you have private testing? I am trying to ask delicately because unless you've been reading posts here for a while, you might not know that we often talk about that here, and I don't know you well enough to know how straight to shoot. 

I'm also wondering why he got the social communication disorder diagnosis vs. ASD. The diagnostic system is imprecise, but with ASD, you are supposed to get a support level, and that support level means as much (sometimes more) than the IQ. SCD is so, so close to autism. 

It's definitely possible for kids to catch up if they are behind due to inadequate intervention, but sometimes there are other factors--behavioral, IQ, adaptive living skills, etc. Has the school (or a private practitioner) assessed him with the Vineland or some other measurement that looks at adaptive behavior? That could be a factor in how your son is accessing his education.

These are things I am afraid I'll forget to tell you that might be helpful...

He's also entitled to stay in school until he is 22 because of his IEP. He's legally allowed to defer his diploma to see if he can progress or to explore career training. I know PA is different in terms of what schools offer, but in Ohio, every county has a career center that offers vocational training while still teaching academics that are compatible with going to college. Sometimes those classes can count toward a degree or allow you to access funds to further your education at a community college. If PA has something like that, it's worth knowing about it. These programs do not prevent a student from getting a college education, but they can give a student a little bit longer to mature (if they choose to defer a diploma and stay longer) while also providing the student, parents, and teachers some feedback about their employability needs. They get to try some job skills to see if they will need the kind of supports in the workplace that they needed in school. Some of these programs have Project Search and other programs that will support future employment.

[chellacopter]

We had him tested twice privately.  He didn't have stimming or repetitive behavior, therefore he was diagnosed with SCD, vs ASD but after the fact  I do believe he stims mildly, he likes popping bubble wrap, trampoline, hair twirling, biting lip.  

His IQ is in the low end of normal 80.  He hates taking long tests, so he will fizzle out or rush to get it over with. 

This year, in 100% in person , he retains a lot more than  he used to. When I help him study,  all we do is review notes a few times & he has it down pretty good.  For literature, he had a class with a co teacher. We were told he needed very little assistance in this class.   He hates poetry etc,, but he really did well.   He got a 100 on report card & we were told he was one of the top students writing in the class. Last 2 years he could never come up with ideas & write. 

Probes are to be done bi-weekly, The CDT is supposed to be done end of every quarter.

The only special education class he has right now is remedial Math & the PreAlgebra.  All of his other courses are regular ed with some accommodations, like copy notes, study guide, laptop to type notes vs write.  

He is in Votech, taking Computers.

Is adaptive behavior same as activities of daily living?  He is good with hygiene.  He dresses himself, knows how to use oven, microwave.  Last summer he did an Office of Vocation summer program.  He works as a dishwasher & busboy.  He gets to drive a 4 wheeler to haul trash or golf carts at work.   His cleaning is not like mom's cleaning, but my husband says no one cleans like you,  🤣.  He can use a debit card,  navigate grocery store. Sadly he can't do simple math , instant recall, so he relies on calculator.  

We have not worked much with him with Math  because we are awful with it. Most of his work is done in school.  He had a Math worksheet to do, so I used the opportunity to observe. I didn't realize how dependent he has become on calculator. For example he  was working a problem , he must have input something wrong on calculator & when he hit 15 x 2,  he got 210 & just wrote it down. I said now think about that, he replied, thats what the calculator gave me.  Like the simple part of it, he couldnt fathom that mistake, but he carried on doing the problem that had multiple\ steps.

I am so appreciative of you talking to me. The last few days have been bad days for me.  I am very drained right now.  

 

 

 

 

 

[kbutton]

20 hours ago, chellacopter said:

I am so appreciative of you talking to me. The last few days have been bad days for me.  I am very drained right now.  

You are welcome! I am sorry it's been draining. This stuff is not for the faint of heart.

He sounds like he's doing really well except for the math! I can see why it's extra stressful to have him not making progress in that area when the other subjects are going well, especially since he's doing computers in a vocational program. Math often is a path to more computer stuff. 

It also sounds like he's starting to blossom with writing. It's really not unusual for ASD kids and kids with similar issues to be late bloomers. Mine required a ton of tutoring and therapy to get to a place where he could write much of anything. I am so glad this is a strength for your son!

Yes, the adaptive living stuff is activities of daily living--it sounds like he's very responsible!

You're doing a great job.

Do you know if he scored significantly higher or lower in one area on his IQ test--for instance, a significant score discrepancy between the verbal index and non-verbal index, with the verbal index being higher means you might find strategies that are useful by browsing information about non-verbal learning disorder. It used to be in the DSM, then they took it out, and I hear it might come back again. 

I know you said you are not great at math, but have you considered using something like Saxon at home? I know several people who use it at home and get good results. It has a lot of review and introduces concepts in small increments. Another one that does this is CLE (Christian Light Education). I think they would both have placement tests. Even if you cover things he's already decent at, it might let him hold onto it long enough to grasp some newer concepts at school. 

On the IEP front, it sounds like his overall placement is good, but once you get into special education for math, I think things can get into a bit of a holding pattern. It's like there is a gap between that class and the co-teaching class, and some kids need something that would be in that gap. The folks I know in this situation usually end up needing an advocate to get anything to change. 

20 hours ago, chellacopter said:

Probes are to be done bi-weekly, The CDT is supposed to be done end of every quarter.

I think I would be their new best friend on beating this drum. 🙂 

[kbutton]

20 hours ago, chellacopter said:

He had a Math worksheet to do, so I used the opportunity to observe. I didn't realize how dependent he has become on calculator. For example he  was working a problem , he must have input something wrong on calculator & when he hit 15 x 2,  he got 210 & just wrote it down. I said now think about that, he replied, thats what the calculator gave me.  Like the simple part of it, he couldnt fathom that mistake, but he carried on doing the problem that had multiple\ steps.

This is very common with a math LD. 

[EKS]

You may be interested to know that the average high school senior has only mastered 5th grade level math.  Note that mastery is different from the grade equivalent scores that are reported for standardized tests.  What I mean by "mastery" is that the person can reliably do the sorts of things that are taught at a particular grade level.  If the grade levels you mentioned (5.3 and 5.8) actually reflect mastery, then he is doing about as well as average performing age peers.  If they are grade equivalent scores, this means that he has likely mastered 3rd grade math.  

[chellacopter]

KBUTTON

It's really not unusual for ASD kids and kids with similar issues to be late bloomers.

We definitely see a change in him this school year

Do you know if he scored significantly higher or lower in one area on his IQ test—

Verbal was higher than non-verbal

have you considered using something like Saxon …CLE (Christian Light Education)?

I am going to look into, and I know he is an auditory learner, so anything that helps for that

The folks I know in this situation usually end up needing an advocate to get anything to change. 

We had an advocate from the local Autism Resource Center helping us. She is inundated with cases & over past few months rarely gets back to me. Our school district has high number of issues & lawsuits. We paid another advocate to review documents. In all honesty, it was somewhat helpful, but I find they want to go to file a complaint mode & in the meantime, he is a Jr. & time is ticking. I just want someone to explain to me, if they don’t do progress monitoring or it seems “off”, how to convey that in a  manner of which my basis for complaint it correct, they are not following the IEP, which means they aren’t providing  fape yet be non-adversary.

Regarding the probes & other assessments I think I would be their new best friend on beating this drum. Do you mean make sure they do them??

 

EKS:

He had a math worksheet to do….

EKS: :This is very common with a math LD. 

I really got upset & felt so bad, that he could not figure it out & what he really is doing is just following steps on a more complicated Math he will unlikely use vs maybe just practicing life skills Math.  We have been making him part of daily process, showing him how to read recipes, use measuring tools etc. 

KAI:

 You may be interested to know that the average high school senior has only mastered 5th grade level math.  Note that mastery is different from the grade equivalent scores that are reported for standardized tests.  What I mean by "mastery" is that the person can reliably do the sorts of things that are taught at a particular grade level.  If the grade levels you mentioned (5.3 and 5.8) actually reflect mastery, then he is doing about as well as average performing age peers.  If they are grade equivalent scores, this means that he has likely mastered 3rd grade math.  

 

Wow, this is very interesting. How do you feel about standardized tests, like Keystone, SAT, PSSA?  His dad & I remember being terrible at taking tests. Sometimes they clearly do not accurately depict understanding or ability

I see you are a Math Wizard.  I have been researching ways to help him with Math.  He is an auditory learner. Are you aware of any Online games/ programs for Math & Auditory learners?

 

To all of you, you have helped my anxiety levels immensely. I am so appreciative!🤩

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, chellacopter said:

time is ticking.

I'm curious what you think it's for or what a realistic end goal is here.

On 3/5/2022 at 8:25 AM, chellacopter said:

local community college

Is this realistic?

Now it's true, some kids are surprising and have things come together later. However this is a time to be REALISTIC. If you assume autism (which it sounds like you should), then you should be asking what will make him employable. The time is ticking on your ability to help him be employable. The math will not decide that.

2 hours ago, chellacopter said:

I just want someone to explain to me, if they don’t do progress monitoring or it seems “off”, how to convey that in a  manner of which my basis for complaint it correct, they are not following the IEP, which means they aren’t providing  fape yet be non-adversary.

He's not making progress because he has disabilities. The fact that he is not making progress on their goals means their goals aren't realistic, which is partly a reflection of not acknowledging the autism and what it entails. Does he have transition goals in his IEP right now? Think through this, because you as a parent also are driving the IEP agenda. If you have been saying you intend for him to go to a community college, then they may be making unrealistic goals. So I'm meaning to be very gentle here, but *you* need to get good advise on what it looks like for someone with 5th grade math skills and ASD1 going forward. What is realistic employment for him? What are his social skills and problem solving skills? This will drive his employability and should be your NUMBER ONE concern. 

Yes, you have the legal right to advocate for realistic goals and expect to see progress on the goals.

2 hours ago, chellacopter said:

We have been making him part of daily process, showing him how to read recipes, use measuring tools etc. 

This is good stuff!!! Keep doing it!!!!!!!!!!!! Focus on what is TRULY IMPORTANT. Social skills, conversation skills, problem solving, narrative language (the ability to say what happened), interoception (self awareness, the ability to say how you feel or realize how others feel), emotional regulation, skills for independent living, THESE are important things. If he has any issues with those, you should file a dispute for 3rd party evals, get the ASD diagnosed properly, and get the testing to set goals to address these areas. 

Then, for the math, just hire a tutor or get a basic curriculum. Have you looked at Ronit Bird? http://www.ronitbird.com  She has ebooks for $10 that have embedded videos to show you how to do everything. If he does not know his basic facts, that's where you're going to start, with her ebooks. If he's solid on those, she has some printed books on amazon that are great and meant for math disability. Pair them with a basic workbook from Evan Moor on word problems. Your library may have something. Calculators are ok, but he needs that number sense help to know his answers are realistic. I would be more concerned about consumer math than algebra. The cooking is AWESOME. 

 

[Storygirl]

It's late for me here, so I'll keep this short for now and echo a couple of things that I think can be hard for parents to consider, but are important.

First, I'll mention that I have an 11th grade son with a math disability and ASD diagnosis and NVLD pattern of IQ testing (higher verbal, low nonverbal scores), and we have battled our school over aspects of his IEP and finally hired an advocate during last school year.

So I am extremely sympathetic to your situation.

*Your school needs to be following the federal special education laws, which require reevaluation every three years, and since you have had to request this, since it was not done, it highly suggests to me that your school is not doing IEP things correctly. You've worked with an advocate before, but it doesn't sound like it was the best fit. I think you need an advocate, truly.

*You do not have to wait until May to request an IEP meeting. Are they working on his reevaluation now? Have they determined all of the areas they will be testing?

*Goals are tricky but my best advice is to say that YES there does need to be benchmark data to work from. Some of my son's goals are measured by work samples, and though I also can cringe about this, because it seems so random, it's okay for that to be the choice. It's not the only choice, though, and you can ask what other options there are. Again, an advocate who knows your local schools would be the best help for this.

* Yes, please read about NVLD. Depending on his testing results, that verbal-nonverbal split can indicate NVLD. NVLD is not in the DSM and is not often diagnosed but does have a distinctive pattern of weaknesses. My son was first diagnosed with NVLD and then later with ASD when we had him reassessed privately. You can redo the autism evaluation, if you think the one that he had missed the diagnosis. An autism diagnosis can open some doors for help.

* I really don't like to say this, but I would encourage you to carefully consider the community college goal. I think it's a good goal! But it's not always feasible. What happens is that students with low math skills will be put in remedial math classes that cost money but do not count toward any degree. And if they can't get to a college level of math, they won't progress and be able to graduate, so it ends up being frustrating and money down the drain without the payoff of any kind of diploma or certificate. I would encourage you to look into this at your local community college and talk to someone in admissions about the prospects for an incoming student who functions at a pre-algebra to early algebra level.

This is so, so hard to hear, I know. I hope it blunts the effect of my words for you to know that my son is in the same position. He is in special education for math and cannot master all of algebra or geometry and will never get to algebra 2. He also functions around the middle school level for English skills, despite the amount of intervention he has received. Because of this, we do not expect him to attempt any college classes and have set realistic employment goals for after graduation, instead.

Do you think that the computer program he is attending is helping him gain some skills he can use for employment? Our vocational career center offers several computer-related programs (digital design, app development, etc), so I don't know exactly what you mean that he is studying. I would suggest meeting with the counselor at the vocational school and his teachers there to make sure you all know how he is progressing and whether he will be obtaining some work-ready credentials that would prepare him for employment after graduation. Because I think this is a more feasible goal than CC, to be completely honest with you.

If by chance he is not progressing in such a way that he is likely to be able to work in the area of his program, you can discuss with them the option of switching, and, as kbutton mentioned, he is legally allowed to keep attending school until he is 22, which gives him more time. He may be doing great, of course! I only mention this, because I know that math can be needed for computer careers, and I think it is really, really important to assess things clearly, as he charts a path toward adulthood.

 

[Storygirl]

I realize that my comments were not totally specific to your IEP questions. But with possibly only one year left of high school, to be blunt, there is limited time for intervention on the disabilities at this point, and the transition goals for what he will be doing after high school are paramount. Someone else (kbutton) asked about his transition goals, and I wanted to echo that.

There are some people who never understand high school math, because of their disabilities. Schools are obviously tasked with teaching kids and helping them to continue to learn, and I expect that for my son. It definitely sounds to me that your school is not doing an ideal job, and I'm sorry, really sorry, about that. I hope that you are able to get them to put in a more effective math goal and to work toward it.

One of the important things for you to consider in the IEP is how much time is given for the intervention. There is a section at the back of the IEP that should spell out how many minutes per week he should be getting and whether this is small group or one on one. Schools do not like to give one on one intervention, and we had to FIGHT for it for my son.

I just wanted you to be aware that the minutes allowed for intervention are AS important as the goals that are set.

[kbutton]

19 hours ago, chellacopter said:

KBUTTON

It's really not unusual for ASD kids and kids with similar issues to be late bloomers.

We definitely see a change in him this school year

Do you know if he scored significantly higher or lower in one area on his IQ test—

Verbal was higher than non-verbal

have you considered using something like Saxon …CLE (Christian Light Education)?

I am going to look into, and I know he is an auditory learner, so anything that helps for that

The folks I know in this situation usually end up needing an advocate to get anything to change. 

We had an advocate from the local Autism Resource Center helping us. She is inundated with cases & over past few months rarely gets back to me. Our school district has high number of issues & lawsuits. We paid another advocate to review documents. In all honesty, it was somewhat helpful, but I find they want to go to file a complaint mode & in the meantime, he is a Jr. & time is ticking. I just want someone to explain to me, if they don’t do progress monitoring or it seems “off”, how to convey that in a  manner of which my basis for complaint it correct, they are not following the IEP, which means they aren’t providing  fape yet be non-adversary.

Regarding the probes & other assessments I think I would be their new best friend on beating this drum. Do you mean make sure they do them??

It sounds like he might benefit from staying in school longer if they will do 1:1 with math, and he's willing to do this without causing a relationship rift with you. 

Auditory learner--having directions and instructions read out loud to him is an accommodation that would be appropriate. He should also learn to read things out loud to himself whenever possible. My son doesn't need someone to read to him, but reading things out loud to himself makes a big difference. 

I am sorry your experience with an advocate has not been enough. I do think you need one though. I am glad that Storygirl chimed in because she's been down a very similar path to yours. 

And yes, I mean that I would be nagging them to death to do the assessments. 🙂 I know, easier said than done!

16 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, you have the legal right to advocate for realistic goals and expect to see progress on the goals.

This is good stuff!!! Keep doing it!!!!!!!!!!!! Focus on what is TRULY IMPORTANT. Social skills, conversation skills, problem solving, narrative language (the ability to say what happened), interoception (self awareness, the ability to say how you feel or realize how others feel), emotional regulation, skills for independent living, THESE are important things. If he has any issues with those, you should file a dispute for 3rd party evals, get the ASD diagnosed properly, and get the testing to set goals to address these areas. 

Then, for the math, just hire a tutor or get a basic curriculum. Have you looked at Ronit Bird? http://www.ronitbird.com  She has ebooks for $10 that have embedded videos to show you how to do everything. If he does not know his basic facts, that's where you're going to start, with her ebooks. If he's solid on those, she has some printed books on amazon that are great and meant for math disability. Pair them with a basic workbook from Evan Moor on word problems. Your library may have something. Calculators are ok, but he needs that number sense help to know his answers are realistic. I would be more concerned about consumer math than algebra. The cooking is AWESOME. 

I agree. I am really impressed at how well you've done with him on life skills. This is really important. I also think that making sure he can figure out when his math answers are realistic is helpful. That's important and functional. In addition to the Evan Moore plus Ronit Bird, you might familiarize yourself with Scaffolded Math and Science. https://www.scaffoldedmath.com/  I am pretty sure that she has supports for all regular math, but she has consumer math stuff as well, I think.

Books you might want to check out in the employment vein: https://www.amazon.com/Integrated-Self-Advocacy-ISA-Curriculum-Self-Advocates/dp/1934575402/ref=asc_df_1934575402/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312519927002&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3521031009098341505&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1023838&hvtargid=pla-569933843961&psc=1 There is a companion student book. There is no reason he can't work on something like this with you or as part of his transition planning at school.

 

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Do you think that the computer program he is attending is helping him gain some skills he can use for employment? Our vocational career center offers several computer-related programs (digital design, app development, etc), so I don't know exactly what you mean that he is studying. I would suggest meeting with the counselor at the vocational school and his teachers there to make sure you all know how he is progressing and whether he will be obtaining some work-ready credentials that would prepare him for employment after graduation. Because I think this is a more feasible goal than CC, to be completely honest with you.

If by chance he is not progressing in such a way that he is likely to be able to work in the area of his program, you can discuss with them the option of switching, and, as kbutton mentioned, he is legally allowed to keep attending school until he is 22, which gives him more time. He may be doing great, of course! I only mention this, because I know that math can be needed for computer careers, and I think it is really, really important to assess things clearly, as he charts a path toward adulthood.

Also, if he is on a track that he will not be able to do feasibly (for social reasons or math will limit him), he can defer his diploma and turn around and take a different track at the vocational school. I have a friend whose son did exactly this. He did fine with the curriculum, but it was in a field that he would not be able to socially do well in. He went back and did another vocational track, and last I knew, he was doing great--he had an internship and is likely to do well in that program. 

13 hours ago, Storygirl said:

One of the important things for you to consider in the IEP is how much time is given for the intervention. There is a section at the back of the IEP that should spell out how many minutes per week he should be getting and whether this is small group or one on one. Schools do not like to give one on one intervention, and we had to FIGHT for it for my son.

I just wanted you to be aware that the minutes allowed for intervention are AS important as the goals that are set.

I wouldn't have even remembered to check that. My kids use state funds to get intervention outside the school system. Excellent advice!

[prairiewindmomma]

16 hours ago, Storygirl said:

It's late for me here, so I'll keep this short for now and echo a couple of things that I think can be hard for parents to consider, but are important.

First, I'll mention that I have an 11th grade son with a math disability and ASD diagnosis and NVLD pattern of IQ testing (higher verbal, low nonverbal scores), and we have battled our school over aspects of his IEP and finally hired an advocate during last school year.

So I am extremely sympathetic to your situation.

*Your school needs to be following the federal special education laws, which require reevaluation every three years, and since you have had to request this, since it was not done, it highly suggests to me that your school is not doing IEP things correctly. You've worked with an advocate before, but it doesn't sound like it was the best fit. I think you need an advocate, truly.

*You do not have to wait until May to request an IEP meeting. Are they working on his reevaluation now? Have they determined all of the areas they will be testing?

*Goals are tricky but my best advice is to say that YES there does need to be benchmark data to work from. Some of my son's goals are measured by work samples, and though I also can cringe about this, because it seems so random, it's okay for that to be the choice. It's not the only choice, though, and you can ask what other options there are. Again, an advocate who knows your local schools would be the best help for this.

* Yes, please read about NVLD. Depending on his testing results, that verbal-nonverbal split can indicate NVLD. NVLD is not in the DSM and is not often diagnosed but does have a distinctive pattern of weaknesses. My son was first diagnosed with NVLD and then later with ASD when we had him reassessed privately. You can redo the autism evaluation, if you think the one that he had missed the diagnosis. An autism diagnosis can open some doors for help.

* I really don't like to say this, but I would encourage you to carefully consider the community college goal. I think it's a good goal! But it's not always feasible. What happens is that students with low math skills will be put in remedial math classes that cost money but do not count toward any degree. And if they can't get to a college level of math, they won't progress and be able to graduate, so it ends up being frustrating and money down the drain without the payoff of any kind of diploma or certificate. I would encourage you to look into this at your local community college and talk to someone in admissions about the prospects for an incoming student who functions at a pre-algebra to early algebra level.

This is so, so hard to hear, I know. I hope it blunts the effect of my words for you to know that my son is in the same position. He is in special education for math and cannot master all of algebra or geometry and will never get to algebra 2. He also functions around the middle school level for English skills, despite the amount of intervention he has received. Because of this, we do not expect him to attempt any college classes and have set realistic employment goals for after graduation, instead.

Do you think that the computer program he is attending is helping him gain some skills he can use for employment? Our vocational career center offers several computer-related programs (digital design, app development, etc), so I don't know exactly what you mean that he is studying. I would suggest meeting with the counselor at the vocational school and his teachers there to make sure you all know how he is progressing and whether he will be obtaining some work-ready credentials that would prepare him for employment after graduation. Because I think this is a more feasible goal than CC, to be completely honest with you.

If by chance he is not progressing in such a way that he is likely to be able to work in the area of his program, you can discuss with them the option of switching, and, as kbutton mentioned, he is legally allowed to keep attending school until he is 22, which gives him more time. He may be doing great, of course! I only mention this, because I know that math can be needed for computer careers, and I think it is really, really important to assess things clearly, as he charts a path toward adulthood.

 

These are the exact points I was coming in to make. As the parent of a 10th grader on an IEP with a math disability, I'm in the trenches with you.

One concern I have not seen addressed: is he on track for graduation? Here, to get a non-modified diploma, one has to have three years of high school level math (Algebra 1, Geometry and either Statistics or Algebra 2 is the normal path here). If he is in 11th grade, even with one additional senior year (5th year), he would not sufficient math credits for a non-modified diploma.

If that's where he is at, academically, that's ok....but you are really looking at transition to adulthood issues. Since he is likely 16 already (you say he's in 11th), those transition meetings should have been happening as part of his IEP meetings.  Given the amount of progress he has had, I don't know that community college is a realistic goal.  I would be giving my energy and attention to post-high school employment opportunities and looking for really feasible ways to find a career that will be rewarding (financially, emotionally, etc.) to him. If community college happens beyond that later down the road, great, but look at everything that is out there now while you have transition services.

[chellacopter]

In our state, he will graduate with a regular diploma using an Evidence based Keystone pathway.  He is taking Computer System Networking at the Votech, that will provide work ready goals. If he finds a job after high school, he will still try community college to further his education. Our Office of Vocational Rehab is working with him on transition goals and post secondary education.

Quote

On 3/6/2022 at 5:57 PM, EKS said:

You may be interested to know that the average high school senior has only mastered 5th grade level math.

 

I guess after  seeing that, I felt a relief that maybe this isn't as bad as I think it is.   

 

Now I am back to confused & concerned about realistic goals.

 

 

[chellacopter]

19 hours ago, Storygirl said:

One of the important things for you to consider in the IEP is how much time is given for the intervention. There is a section at the back of the IEP that should spell out how many minutes per week he should be getting and whether this is small group or one on one. Schools do not like to give one on one intervention, and we had to FIGHT for it for my son.

He is in remedial Math Class, so he doesn't get pulled out.  He has the opportunity for small group IF he needs it.  

[EKS]

On 3/6/2022 at 4:35 PM, chellacopter said:

Wow, this is very interesting. How do you feel about standardized tests, like Keystone, SAT, PSSA?  His dad & I remember being terrible at taking tests. Sometimes they clearly do not accurately depict understanding or ability

I think that standardized tests have their place in situations where you can't actively witness what's going on with the student's knowledge and skills and where you want to compare students as directly as possible.

A quick and dirty way to figure out his grade level in math would be to find out whether he can deal effectively with fractions and decimals.  If the answer is yes, then he's at at least an end of fifth grade level; if not, it's somewhere below that.  

On 3/6/2022 at 4:35 PM, chellacopter said:

 I have been researching ways to help him with Math.  He is an auditory learner. Are you aware of any Online games/ programs for Math & Auditory learners?

I would not expect a struggling student to get anything out of an online program.  I think that the single best thing you can do with any student struggling in math (or anything else) is to sit with them and work one-on-one for an hour each day.  That way you can tailor the instruction to their needs moment by moment.  This is critical, and it is, unfortunately, the reason so many kids with LDs get left behind in school.

On 3/6/2022 at 4:35 PM, chellacopter said:

I see you are a Math Wizard.

I'm definitely not a math wizard!  I got Ds and Fs in math in high school.  I worked for many many years learning math from the ground up so that I could help my older son learn what he needed to get into an engineering program (and be successful in it).  He has dyslexia and also has a dyscalculia diagnosis (among other diagnoses).  I have spent literally thousands of hours on this project. Last year I decided to keep going beyond high school calculus in a more formal way, hence the math degree program.

[chellacopter]

17 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'm definitely not a math wizard!  I got Ds and Fs in math in high school.  I worked for many many years learning math from the ground up so that I could help my older son learn what he needed to get into an engineering program

 

I think you are amazing for doing what you did!    If my son had to read a book, I read it too.   Last year I learned a lot about Biology & overall I learned more about History than I ever did in all of years in school.  I am getting the hang of Math. 

When I see my son do Math, I can see him go through the steps....it's almost as if he can grasp the more complicated part of it, yet he struggles on the rudimentary.

I have been provided a copy of the math text book & this teacher sends study guides, showing the work & answers, so I can assist a lot more.

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[kbutton]

14 hours ago, chellacopter said:

In our state, he will graduate with a regular diploma using an Evidence based Keystone pathway.  He is taking Computer System Networking at the Votech, that will provide work ready goals.

Our Office of Vocational Rehab is working with him on transition goals and post secondary education.

Those are two really good things going for him! The school has probably kind of handed the transition planning over mentally to the vocational rehab people, but I think it's awesome that vocational rehab is working with him now and not waiting. That's a really good connection. 

It sounds like they will have his back if the CC doesn't work out. 

15 hours ago, chellacopter said:

Now I am back to confused & concerned about realistic goals.

Maybe think of it as what he can do if he gets math help and what he can do if it doesn't work out, and/or CC doesn't work out. 

Can he use the Computer System Networking training he's getting now to get a job, or will that require additional training? Does that training require higher math (or is higher math required to get a CC degree/certification)?

The fact that he can use this path to get a normal diploma is very good. Some vocational high school programs get you an entry level job (or better). Some are a stepping stone to something bigger--it's varies within each program. 

With vocational rehab working with him, they will often provide resources such as a job coach, etc. I don't know if they have ways to provide adapted but equivalent training if he needs CC classes but will not be able to do math. That would be a good question to ask them. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I think when you're talking about realistic goals, you're looking at what is achievable.  If he has had years of direct instruction and hasn't made progress, he may have hit a wall.  It does happen. And, with an IQ of 80 plus a math disability plus something like NLVD, you may be at that wall. I think the only way you're going to know is if you do some 1:1 tutoring independently and see if you see progress. You've got a chicken/egg problem....until the egg hatches you can't prove there is a chicken inside. Until you have a chicken, you don't know if it can lay an egg.   

My IEP fights have been primarily around the discrepancy of capability versus performance and I had some very solid test data to push for quality RTI which then justified the specific services he receives. The quality is nowhere near what private tutoring with a capable tutor can achieve, but most SPED teachers just don't have the time and resources to do that and the battle through attorneys to make that happen is often more expensive than just paying out of pocket for tutoring. 

You are very right that College Algebra is the base minimum for most community college programs.  It's a concern that looms here also and is causing plans to change.

[EKS]

On 3/6/2022 at 4:35 PM, chellacopter said:

Are you aware of any Online games/ programs for Math & Auditory learners?

This is going to sound nuts, but I was watching Little House on the Prairie last night and realized that back in the day, they did a lot of work mentally because there wasn't always paper handy.  Schooling was far more auditory than it is today, and perhaps there were techniques used back then that might help your son.

[EKS]

15 hours ago, chellacopter said:

When I see my son do Math, I can see him go through the steps....it's almost as if he can grasp the more complicated part of it, yet he struggles on the rudimentary.

My son had the same thing!