Clover Valley Chemistry: Parent Graded or Not?

[JumpyTheFrog]

I'm considering having DS do chemistry with Clover Valley next year. Any thoughts on parent-graded vs. the regular class?

[Roadrunner]

I have had two kids go through honors level and each time we opted for a graded option. I don’t know chemistry, and I would have never been able to figure how to give partial credit and feedback. I would wonder every time if what they missed was due to fundamental lack of understanding or a computational mistake. So unless you are comfortable with the subject, I would go for the graded option. I am glad we did.

[Farrar]

If you don't understand chemistry well enough to explain something cold, I'd say just do the class. It's not like grading multiple choice stuff. You need to be able to follow the solution, give partial credit, etc. Plus you need to be able to support your student if they have questions - Connie holds twice weekly help sessions and many students really need them. If you have a background in science, don't mind supporting and grading, then obviously the parent graded version is a good option. The course materials by themselves are really great.

[Porridge]

Agree with above. I enjoyed chem when I studied it, but would need to devote significant time to reviewing the material in order to feel comfortable grading or answering questions. 

[8filltheheart]

I have a dd doing the self-graded option right now.  Connie is a great teacher.  My dd rarely misses things, so it really hasn't been a big deal that I don't know chemistry (chemistry is the one subject I really, really detest.)  IIRC, there have been 2 times this where we didn't understand an incorrect answer and I contacted Connie.  Otherwise, when I have marked it wrong, she has been easily able to go back and figure out why.  So, I haven't really needed to know any answers.  Connie taught them.

[SoCal_Bear]

We do the graded option. My son really prefers getting marked feedback from someone other than me at this particular "life" stage he is in. It is a far better and healthier for our relationship that we are doing that. Connie's course is fanstastic. My son is one of the youngest I believe in her Advanced Honors Chem and working the hardest he has ever worked in his life. The course is very well put together. She is incredibly supportive and responsive as a teacher. There are only a few courses that I enthusiatically recommend, and this is one of them. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by calbear

[AEC]

DS took the 'AdvHonorsChem' 2 years ago, and is taking OChem from Connie now. We went with graded both times, and totally recommend it. The opportunity to practice working fully independent from me was great, and Connie is a fantastic teacher. Grading is more than just if the final answer is correct, but includes a requirement that reasonable humans can understand how you got to that answer and that the process is correct. I've been pounding the table about that for years, but having someone else enforce it was transformational.  I will also second the PPs note that the classes are excellent, but challenging, and a fair amount of hard work. 10/10 would recommend.

[cuckoomamma]

I agree that Connie is one of the best teachers my girls have had. I wish my older had taken class with her. She’s the complete package. Wish I could clone her for other subjects!

[RoundAbout]

We are doing the self-graded Advanced Honors Chem and DS enjoys working at his own pace.  We don't like being too tied to a schedule and DS already has one demanding class with strict deadlines (Lukeion Greek 3) so its worked out great for us. As with 8Fill my student mostly gets things right so needing support hasn't been an issue and I am able to help some.

[Ritz]

On 1/21/2022 at 10:47 PM, calbear said:

We do the graded option. My son really prefers getting marked feedback from someone other than me at this particular "life" stage he is in. It is a far better and healthier for our relationship that we are doing that. Connie's course is fanstastic. My son is one of the youngest I believe in her Advanced Honors Chem and working the hardest he has ever worked in his life. The course is very well put together. She is incredibly supportive and responsive as a teacher. There are only a few courses that I enthusiatically recommend, and this is one of them. 

Just saw your post and I’m hoping you can help me think through our fall course choice. Can I ask how much time your son is investing and his age? Our daughter is finishing Honors Bio and wants to take chem as a freshman next year. She loves Bio this year and is looking at a STEM field, but I’m a little nervous about balancing the Advanced Honors Chem with a few other Honors classes/AP. I also saw the Clover Valley Chem (not advanced) that the same teacher offers. Just can’t decide on best fit. 

[SoCal_Bear]

17 minutes ago, Ritz said:

Just saw your post and I’m hoping you can help me think through our fall course choice. Can I ask how much time your son is investing and his age? Our daughter is finishing Honors Bio and wants to take chem as a freshman next year. She loves Bio this year and is looking at a STEM field, but I’m a little nervous about balancing the Advanced Honors Chem with a few other Honors classes/AP. I also saw the Clover Valley Chem (not advanced) that the same teacher offers. Just can’t decide on best fit. 

He spends 10-12 hours a week minimum. Her workload estimate is accurate. So he works on Chem usually Mon-Sat because we will do labs on Saturday and he seems to always wait until the weekend to take his exam. Connie will allow you to drop from Adv Chem to regular chem if the workload is too much. You will definitely know by the second unit (units are usually in 2 week increments) if the class will be too much. That second unit is what I would call the fish or cut bait point. If you can manage it and break through the challenge of it, you will make it through the course. I won't lie and say there weren't points of frustration, but it was very well worth it for my son. He will be a very different student on the other side of this. It was hard, but well worth the journey for us. 

I purposely took a break from history this year because of this class to lighten his load. You can see in my siggy what he is studying.

Edited February 15, 2022 by calbear

[8filltheheart]

I have had a student take both the advanced and the regular honors.  The 2 courses are really not easily compared.  There is a tremendous difference in workload and required mastery.  It is really going to depend on the student which course is better.  I'm glad that I had my 2 each in the course they took.  My older dd is STEM oriented and took the advanced course in 11th.  She was able to CLEP out of chem 2 yrs later (just studied some during the summer).  She scored extremely high and received 2 semesters of chem credit for science majors.  My younger dd who is in the regular honors is a 10th grader and is thinking about majoring in accounting.   I am pretty sure that the advanced course would have reduced her to tears and made her feel defeated.  She most definitely does not thrive on science like her sister.

ETA:  I wanted to add that neither of the girls had ever studied any chemistry prior to Connie's classes.  Both did/have done extremely well in the courses bc Connie is such a great teacher.  

Edited February 15, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[SoCal_Bear]

To @8filltheheart's point, Connie did develop an true honors course that is in between what her STEM dd took and my son is taking which is now renamed Adv. Honors. So, you could drop down from the Advanced Honors to the honors course without going to the regular chemistry course. My sense is the honors course is on par with other honors level high school chem courses that are available in terms of workload. I won't say that they are the same because Connie is really an excellent teacher. The Advanced Honors chem is really pre-AP level. Previous students have commented that AP chem post Connie's course was not as challenging.

[Ritz]

On 2/14/2022 at 11:16 PM, calbear said:

He spends 10-12 hours a week minimum. Her workload estimate is accurate. So he works on Chem usually Mon-Sat because we will do labs on Saturday and he seems to always wait until the weekend to take his exam. Connie will allow you to drop from Adv Chem to regular chem if the workload is too much. You will definitely know by the second unit (units are usually in 2 week increments) if the class will be too much. That second unit is what I would call the fish or cut bait point. If you can manage it and break through the challenge of it, you will make it through the course. I won't lie and say there weren't points of frustration, but it was very well worth it for my son. He will be a very different student on the other side of this. It was hard, but well worth the journey for us. 

I purposely took a break from history this year because of this class to lighten his load. You can see in my siggy what he is studying.

That's so helpful. Thank you. I was thinking we'd try to do an elective or two over the summer so that she had some extra time for the coursework. Sounds like that may be needed to make sure she stays balanced. Thanks again!

[SoCal_Bear]

1 hour ago, Ritz said:

That's so helpful. Thank you. I was thinking we'd try to do an elective or two over the summer so that she had some extra time for the coursework. Sounds like that may be needed to make sure she stays balanced. Thanks again!

There were electives my son really enjoyed like his coding and chess classes which he and I opted to delay when looking at his overall schedule. He and I also have tapered down his Chinese lessons to once a week when he has active Latin classes. He did decide to withdraw from a local fall golf program because it would have taken up too much time on the weekends. Coding and chess both could have been restarted at any time because they have rolling enrollment. Coding he delayed until February to give himself all of January to reacclimate to spring term for all his classes and chess he restarted but at a much lower level of commitments dropping from 4-5 hours a week to 2. Now that he has found his footing and Science Olympiad is likely ending for the year (unlikely our team will qualify for state), he is increasing chess back up to 5+ hours weekly due to being recruited to a competitive scholastic chess team. He also requested that our family not take an annual fall vacation in October because it would have been too difficult to keep up. These were all choices that he was coming to on his own which is exactly what I wanted was for him to take ownership in thinking through choices and understanding trade offs have to be made.

Edited February 16, 2022 by calbear

[SeaConquest]

12 hours ago, calbear said:

There were electives my son really enjoyed like his coding and chess classes which he and I opted to delay when looking at his overall schedule. He and I also have tapered down his Chinese lessons to once a week when he has active Latin classes. He did decide to withdraw from a local fall golf program because it would have taken up too much time on the weekends. Coding and chess both could have been restarted at any time because they have rolling enrollment. Coding he delayed until February to give himself all of January to reacclimate to spring term for all his classes and chess he restarted but at a much lower level of commitments dropping from 4-5 hours a week to 2. Now that he has found his footing and Science Olympiad is likely ending for the year (unlikely our team will qualify for state), he is increasing chess back up to 5+ hours weekly due to being recruited to a competitive scholastic chess team. He also requested that our family not take an annual fall vacation in October because it would have been too difficult to keep up. These were all choices that he was coming to on his own which is exactly what I wanted was for him to take ownership in thinking through choices and understanding trade offs have to be made.

That all sounds incredibly mature, L. As I recall, our boys are only around 6 months or so apart in age, and I can tell you that I am not seeing anywhere near that level of maturity with my DS. I read your paragraph to my DH and asked him if he thought our DS was showing that kind of maturity and he also said, "not at all." So, I think that is pretty awesome.