Switching math curriculum when it's not working

[dodgeat2]

Hi there, I have two very different children who are 8 and 6, so my two questions are different. I am not necessarily just looking for advice on which curriculum to use, but also some tips for the long run of math K-12 for my five children.

My eight year old son started math a couple years ago with a Singapore Earlybird or Essentials (I can't remember the name) workbook, which he went through pretty easily. We moved to Right Start B and we both absolutely loved it. He still uses the abacus, loves to play games, and was very slow in his motor skills/writing, so the lack of too many worksheets was perfect. We enjoyed doing math together.

We started Right Start C, and I didn't love it as much. He was getting bogged down in borrowing and subtracting with four digit numbers, and I began to realize that, while the four-digit approach made him feel really accomplished with adding, it was doing the opposite with subtracting. I switched him to Math Mammoth and we are doing some easy work in the beginning of Book 2B. I had him try one of their subtraction pages and it was more comfortable. I'm not thrilled that it doesn't use manipulatives, that the pages seem cluttered and the pictures of the manipulatives are small. I also think he did well with the spiral of Right Start, and he enjoyed the Right Start warm ups every day.

I don't want to switch his math curriculum over and over again. He is gifted in language, but is not a creative type, math-minded student with the conceptual stuff. I want him to have the conceptual knowledge, but he would get very frustrated with something like Beast Academy. He likes puzzles, but only if they are "easy" and do not require challenging thinking and perseverance.

He likes workbooks. I think he would like Rod and Staff, but I want him to have the conceptual knowledge, too.

 

My daughter is another story. I fully intended to use Right Start B with her, but there were immediately huge snags. She has ADHD, is highly sensitive/has sensory issues, and is a very visual/tactile learner. She is very creative. She hated the abacus immediately. She had trouble with the warm ups with Right Start, and with me giving her directions about what to do, because she has trouble listening to directions and following them (also has executive function issues with doing chores, getting dressed, etc. with only verbal instructions). The vocal back and forth from teacher to student of Right Start was just a train wreck.

I got her a Math Mammoth workbook, 1A. She likes doing workbooks, but she craves novelty. She will melt into her chair when there are more than a few problems that have the same instruction or concept. She is totally overwhelmed by the number of questions on the Math Mammoth pages, and by the small font and small pictures of manipulatives. Even if I circle problems or tell her to pick four, or cover some up, it is just not working. Personally, the Math Mammoth books don't seem to me like they are designed very well for the ages they are for, either. She also is only reading CVC words, so she can't read any of the directions. She is very intuitive with math, and I think maybe taking it slow and trying out Miquon or Singapore would be good for her. I got her the new Beast Academy grade 1 book for Christmas.

My main ideas with my children are that I want them to have both the conceptual and procedural math knowledge, I don't want to switch their curricula a million times (I don't mind if they all use a different one, though). I want them to be able to love and play with math at an early age, and not focus so much on mastery except for the very important concepts and facts. I don't have a lot of time to plan my own curriculum, and I only have about 20-30 minutes of one on one time per day, because I have five children 8 and under.

[HomeAgain]

I'll agree with taking a look at Miquon.  It is a good series that leads into Math Mammoth when a child is ready for more problems on the page, and is great for an intuitive child.  I had a system set up of doing a short hands on lesson introducing a concept further in the book, and using the workpages as more independent practice for a previously taught concept.  So every day it was two different things for math.

[knitgrl]

Miquon is definitely less cluttered than MM. Ds, while not ADHD, is definitely more physically active than his sisters and has a hard time sitting still. He liked Miquon and still requests it sometimes. I would say it does require some flexibility on the part of the teacher, because if something isn't working, you need to move on, which Miquon makes fairly easy. I would also recommend getting at least three of the workbooks to start with. Ds was definitely not ready for how they presented fractions, so we needed to move onto a different section. Having the extra workbooks will let you progress on a particular topic if it really clicks.

We use Math Mammoth now because I am late in learning how to be as flexible as I need to be. This year, subtraction with regrouping was a real sticking point. We spent weeks on it. using the practice pages from MM and base ten blocks. He still doesn't like subtracting, but can at least do it now without freaking out. SWB's tip on bribing your child with chocolate chips was an immense help.

[Clarita]

For my youngest sometimes even having a lot of problems on a page (even if he doesn't have to do them) is overwhelming. Sometimes I write out the problem(s) on a seperate piece of paper so he only has one problem at a time or ones he needs to do. I also cut up the workbooks and I only give my son the pages he needs to do, instead of the whole workbook. (Bonus is that it also makes it easier for me to lesson plan.) 

[PeterPan]

We have lots of elephants and old fogies here on the board, but I'm going to put on my old fogy hat here for a minute.

Sometimes the problem isn't so much the curriculum as not yet understanding how your dc ticks and where they're coming from. With my lots of water under the bridge self, I read your post and notice things.

On 12/8/2021 at 12:59 PM, dodgeat2 said:

very slow in his motor skills/writing

 

On 12/8/2021 at 12:59 PM, dodgeat2 said:

He likes puzzles, but only if they are "easy" and do not require challenging thinking and perseverance.

 

On 12/8/2021 at 12:59 PM, dodgeat2 said:

very different children

You said they're very different, but have both kids had evals or only your dd? And if one or both have been formally diagnosed, was that with an MD (just a diagnosis for meds) or with a psych? And how extensive was the testing? 

On 12/8/2021 at 12:59 PM, dodgeat2 said:

is highly sensitive/has sensory issues

And has this had an OT eval? And has the ds with the motor/writing issues had OT evals?

My dd (now graduated and gone) was that very ADHD, super sensitive for sensory, crunchy on the writing, not sticking with things. Some of it responds to meds. Some of it was needing interoception work (which is really counter-intuitive, because you're saying to work on awareness for someone who is exquisitely aware, but there you go). She turned out to have some subtle APD issues going on as well, quite a few retained reflexes, and ended up with a cocktail of SSRI/SNRIs that toned down the sensory hyper responsiveness. 

The neuropsych we used (which is why I asked how long the testing was) did testing for stick-to-itiveness. I forget what the word was, but there was a test. And she was literally clinically poor at it, lol. Which is to say that it's not your imagination that it's happening in one of your dc and it IS a challenging thing to work with.

So where you might start is reviewing your evals. You need to reread the evals in the light of what you're seeing and connect dots, because it will help you modify how you're teaching. I used RightStart with my dd btw. It's way over the head of my ds, who has a higher IQ but significant disabilities, including a math disability. For him, as you say, he needs structure and worksheets work GREAT. I used the 4 digit subtraction methods from RightStart but taught them using a Lakeshore Learning hands on subtraction kit. So there I became the magic, transferring the good method over to something that would work for him better.

Ronit Bird has a terrific game Positive/Negative Turnovers that she includes in her free Card Games ebook. It's in ibooks, only works for apple, but the price is right. We played it quite a bit after he nailed addition and used it to nail subtraction. We would make the plays and then write equations to show what we had done and all the ways it could be understood. That solidified subtraction enough that he could do the 4 digit subtraction easily, albeit slowly.

The other thing to remember is the effect that dopamine levels will have on getting math facts, etc. into memory. Also look at the processing speed in their reports. When the processing speed is low, they fatigue. Using a calculator can be appropriate in situations like that because you're decreasing strain and allowing them to focus on going forward conceptually. 

On 12/8/2021 at 12:59 PM, dodgeat2 said:

she has trouble listening to directions and following them (also has executive function issues with doing chores, getting dressed, etc. with only verbal instructions).

Has she had SLP evals? You need to be looking into this, because this is stuff that can have SLP goals. They should also be screening for APD, which is basically another way of saying a language processing problem. 

You're also showing red flags for autism here. Given the amount of issues you're describing, I would not assume they are completely explained by an ADHD diagnosis. ADHD, as it becomes more severe, slides right into ASD. Being overwhelmed with the material on the page, needing smaller chunks, difficulty with steps of common every day tasks, needing to go visual, etc., over-responsive for sensory, etc., you're really walking right up to it. 

I don't know if that's even what you're thinking. I'm just suggesting, having btdt (except for the lots of kids, haha), that it was always back to the evals, needing better information to improve our methods. 

https://www.amazon.com/FLIPP-Switch-Strengthen-Executive-Function/dp/1942197012/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1X2FSL0M8B87V&keywords=flipp+the+switch+2.0+-+strengthen+executive+function+skills&qid=1639116724&sprefix=flipp+the+sw%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-2

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by PeterPan

[Janeway]

My children are liking TGTB math. It is free for download so you can try it first and see what you think.

[BusyMom5]

I have used MM off and on with 4 different kids.  The pages are terribly cluttered and none if them have ever liked it for more than a few months at a time- and I have to work from more than one chapter- like work on adding and measuring,  subtraction and clocks.  Too much of the same type problem is tedious.  Of all the math programs out there, it isnt one I would suggest for a kid who struggles with attention.   

Math in Focus teaches in a similar style, but the workbook pages are all black and white with lots of space to write.  Its also more visual.  It might be a better fit.

I have 6 kids, and all have had their own math challenges.   

One has APD and has always needed much more repetition.   She needs to move at a slower pace, and she needs visuals- I have sooooo many math manipulatives! If she can see it, she can do it.  She gets tripped up in the logic of math, and prefers a set pattern to follow. Just because you like an approach doesn't mean it will work for your child.  Saxon math has worked the best.  Shes in 11th grade, finishing Algebra 2.

Another one cannot use manipulatives.   If I get out anything to illustrate a concept,  its a toy.  She will pay no attention to what I'm saying, shes just looking at the toys.  Shes 10 and has always been this way.  MiF worked well, as it has a lot of visuals on paper.  I also teach by drawing a lot.  She is very smart, but has a low attention span.  If there are distractions, she will get a lot of problems wrong.  If there are not, she usually gets every single one correct.  Math lessons can never be longer than 15 minutes.  10 is preferred.  She will do the lessons on her own. She does not like math that is hard- no Beast Academy, and MM was a total fail- just too cluttered.  Her best mix is MiF and Saxon.  We only do 15-20 Saxon problems a day,  she doesn't need more than that.

For some of my kids,  you could use any program and they would do just fine.  Lucky them!  

My point is that kids are so different,  it can take some time to tease out what works and what doesn't.   Often you don't need to entirely change curriculum,  but your mode of teaching.   The PP who suggested more testing is right on track, but knowing all that's going on won't tell you how to teach,  you have to work through that on your own.   It sounds like you are paying attention to their different needs- which is exactly what they need you to do.  I pulled my kids from public school in large part bc my one with (undiagnosed) APD was really struggling.  It took me at least 2 years to figure out the best way to teach her.  

Best of luck!

[seemesew]

I will second The Good and the Beautiful math! It honestly sounds like a great fit for both of your kids from my experience with it. It is a free download for grades 1-5 too so you can see what you think before buying. I like that a mathy kid could easily move quickly through it but it is not overwhelming for kids who are not mathy. There are games and puzzles but they aren't too hard or frustrating. It is more procedural but also has some conceptual which I think has been good a mix. It is colorful but there aren't tons of problems, its about right in my opinion. It is a Christian math so God is mentioned but I honestly haven't seen too much of that if that bothers you (I say that because most the ones you mentioned are secular).

*Also it is newly revised this year so any previous reviews that were not done since August 2021 are outdated because it was a complete revamp.* 

Edited December 11, 2021 by seemesew

[Janeway]

On 12/10/2021 at 7:59 PM, Lovinglife123 said:

Which levels?  Did your one DD decide to stick to it? 

My daughter ended up liking it. She did not at first because it was a lot of review. And she prefers me to teach her myself rather than the videos. The videos are only for 4th and 5th grade. Now I just run the video while she can work ahead. I teach her the topic myself if need be. Then my 1st grader wanted to do it. He loves the coloring pages and such. I am surprised at this as he is very mathy. I guess I don’t think of someone who is so good at math as wanting to color so much.

 

oh yeah, she is on level 4 and he is on levels 1/2.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Janeway

[Janeway]

1 minute ago, Lovinglife123 said:

@Janeway I’m not sure why but I’m really really resistant to their programs.  Maybe because it’s so popular I just want to be the rebel who thinks it isn’t all that great 😂.  I don’t think it has anything to do with the whole Mormon thing though.   

 I ONLY tried them because the program was free. I figured it cost me nothing to print some off and see how it goes. I had fully planned to just continue with what I had already been using. But then, we ended up liking it. Now we have stayed with it. 

 

Maybe you are hesitant because it is free. Funny thing, I have often paid for stuff and then found I liked the free stuff a lot. Like progressive phonics and back when Book Adventure was free. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Janeway