Horizons or BJU math

[countrymum]

As we add to our family, our current math program (RightStart) is becoming unsustainable. It needs way more drill and review than I can get to with games ectra. It has become particularly apparent with my 4th grader.

I need a math program that is more streamlined. I am happy to add in fact drill via flashcards, math facts that stick, calculadders, but I need it to have plenty new practice and review in the lesson not as games that i have to participate in. I like to teach math, so teacher friendly is not necessary. I like to have a teacher book so I know what the point of the lesson is and any review that I should give the student. 

I have narrowed it down to Horizons or BJU. I actually like Horizons teacher book better and it looks more streamlined, but is BJU "better"? I also want to be able to do algebra in 8th grade. I would have to skip a BJU book or something to do this?

My son is finishing this year with Horizons and boy he needed the long time spent on division practice. The review is good for him too. He needs to get plain faster at arithmetic. But will it help me lay a strong foundation in elementary? We will use Foerster for Algebra and likely Jacobs geometry.

ETA we will have k, 3rd, 5th in school next year plus littles 

Edited February 24, 2021 by countrymum

[skctgbrlis]

I believe BJU says that strong math students can skip their 8th grade math and go directly to Algebra instead. I would stay far away from Horizons Prealgebra. It’s really hard to follow. 

[PeterPan]

On the most basic level, Horizon is a workbook, complete within itself, and BJU needs to be taught. So if you are having a busy day and hand your dc the worktext for BJU, they did NOT get the entire lesson. With Horizon, a workbook only day is fine. Both are fine, but that's probably some of the difference you're seeing in the manuals. Do you want to drive the lesson or do you want to be consultative, helping when things aren't quite clear? With BJU, you need to be prepared to teach or get the dvds.

We went to BJU after RS. It's very good stuff. How high up does Horizons go now? I haven't looked at it in a while. I think even the pre-algebra and algebra were *just* coming out when my dd was that age. So BJU might be rough as a long term solution unless you're really planning to teach, and Horizons might leave you hanging if it ends at algebra 1. If it goes all the way, then that could work. Going into Algebra 1 or even pre-algebra would be a good jump point or a weaker math student. I would not take them into BJU's high school sequence if they're weaker students, because there are other options that would suit them better. 

So you could think of it as a solution now to pre-algebra and then possibly another solution for high school. Fwiw, MUS for the high school sequence was a very pragmatic but good enough choice for us. You could do whatever you want (BJU, Horizons, whatever) and then for algebra and up consider MUS. With its video lessons, it's ideal for kids who need to work more independently.

[countrymum]

Thanks for the thoughts. I like to teach math, but 15-20 min each oer day is more what I can do than 45...

Mostly the games for drill bogged us down. The kids didn't like them and didn't  want to do them and i didn't have time to teach and then drill x2 or 3. 

Peterpan, how long does it take to teach a lesson? Is there enough drill and practice? My son usderstood division and coild do it, but until we switched into horizons, he was painfully slow. He is starting to pick up speed now. 

Past 6th grade or perhaps prealgebra doesn't really concern me. I plan to use Foersner Algebra.

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, countrymum said:

how long does it take to teach a lesson? Is there enough drill and practice? My son usderstood division and coild do it, but until we switched into horizons, he was painfully slow. He is starting to pick up speed now. 

BJU is mastery, not incremental instruction like Horizon, and they usually have supplemental materials to differentiate instruction. When I was using it years ago it was actually separate workbooks. Then they went to disks in the ™ so you could print supplements. But no, it's not going to have the amount of drill in the main lesson that Horizon packs in. You would print the supplements to ramp it up to fit your student. 

Are you feeling guilty or like you have holes? Why are you looking at BJU if Horizons is working? 

9 hours ago, countrymum said:

Mostly the games for drill bogged us down. The kids didn't like them

I agree, games for math are more practical (in general) done 15 minutes once a week. That's just a much more realistic goal. Now with my ds, I make games a big part of the instruction, but one he can't write his own math and two he has SLD math and really needs that slower pace. 

That's kind of interesting that they didn't like them. There are definitely much more fun games out there. Maybe don't give up ENTIRELY on games but find other ones and do them just once a week, kwim? 

As far a low prep, I particularly like simple games I can play with dice. I just picked up these to try with my ds. Just enough pizzazz to make them think but no fancy rules or complications. https://www.amazon.com/Koplow-Games-Elapsed-Classroom-Accessories/dp/B01HUL2X9M/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=elapsed+time+dice&qid=1614442306&sr=8-1 

http://www.ronitbird.com/games/  Ronit Bird has two free ebooks of games using simple things like dominos and playing cards, things you already have lying around. I particularly recommend her Positive/Negative Turnovers game from the free Card Games ebook. I taught it to my ds after he had learned his basic addition facts, and he quickly learned to +/- positive and negative numbers, write the equations, etc. Great stuff. So I was using it, not for drill the way RightStart recommends, but to drive conceptual exploration and instruction. We were turning over cards, stretching our mind to do the scoring for the game, and discovering the equations. So a little bit interesting, very fun, and just supplemental. All her games are brilliant like that.

9 hours ago, countrymum said:

I like to teach math, but 15-20 min each oer day is more what I can do than 45...

So you already know this, but the *best* part of RightStart is those early levels, mainly level B and through multi digit subtraction in C. After that, it's not so unique and you could do it in your sleep using any curriculum. BJU, in the edition I used, was very, very similar to RightStart. It was super easy to carry over the methods and make BJU what I wanted. Now they've updated and I really don't know. I'm sure it's fine and what I've seen is strong. 

I'm suggesting that since you already *own* RightStart, you might consider using it for the levels that are *most* important and then moving over to lower instruction time materials where it's *less* important. There's a natural developmental shift too, which older kids (generally) requiring less time and wanting more independence. So it's a natural shift. I don't think fair means equal on this, kwim? We just need it appropriate. It might also be ok to shift from RightStart to Horizons for some of the kids who are ready to be more independent, see how it goes, and then customize and go higher instruction/interaction for kids who need that. 

Just for kicks, you could watch the samples of the BJU video lessons for the math. As you say they're banging it out generally in 15-20, so it can be done. You just have supervision after that and you have monitoring to decide if you're using the supplemental materials. Remember, BJU is meant to have enough materials/supports/options to work in a classroom setting. So you don't need EVERYTHING in the BJU and some kids need more of what is optional in there than others. But that's a strength sometimes, not a weakness.

Don't buy problems you don't have. If the Horizons is WORKING, use it and don't feel guilty. If it's NOT working, change. If it's working but you think it's shy on some areas you'd like hit more (games, more challenging application problems, whatever), then just supplement that stuff. I do that ALL THE TIME with ds. He's considered math gifted with a math disability, so I'm forever trying to teach him as BOTH. So I often use something really basal/basic and spice it up with something to make him THINK. And it's not that you have to, but I'm saying if you are identifying issues, it's ok to solve them by adding one thing or whatever and calling it good. I like the BJU, but math is personal enough that you do not need to change if what you're doing is working or can be made to work. 

[countrymum]

I have only used Horizons (4th) with 1 child for a few weeks. He is getting division down finally.  So in that sense its "working". I think I'll probably keep it for him at least. They have a nice long (like 12 +) lessons focused on division. He understood it just fine going in, but was terribly s l o w. It seems less sprial that RightStart honestly now...

I like RS B, but not A or C so much.... So I was thinking of switching all the way down... I am just not sure that I won't "mess up" I guess... I worry about this way more than likely is necessary;)

Aboit a cd of extras... I like having it all in the book, but even Horizons has extra sheets in the tm that I can copy if needed.

Thanks for your thoughts

[Janeway]

I like BJU much better than Horizons. I have used both.

[countrymum]

Janeway, could you elaborate?

He is going to be in "5th" next year. Also, I have the 5th grade manual for bju (4th edition). With RightStart we have already covered through chapter 11. How would I place him? 

[PeterPan]

14 hours ago, countrymum said:

Janeway, could you elaborate?

He is going to be in "5th" next year. Also, I have the 5th grade manual for bju (4th edition). With RightStart we have already covered through chapter 11. How would I place him? 

When we switched, we backed up a bit, doing just the work text with familiar material (double pace even) to slide into instructional level. 

[countrymum]

But he's only in 4th now. Would you ever jump "ahead" in BJU?

[mmasc]

If you can tell that he has covered the material through ch 11 of the 5th grade materials, then I’d just get him the 5th grade book and start at the beginning. 1) it’s fine to use the 5th grade book, even if he’s in “4th”. My son is doing exactly that right now and has no idea. I tear the pages out. He never even sees the front of the book to know if he’s ‘ahead’ or ‘behind’ or whatever. He just works where he’s at. 
2) starting at the beginning will help you and him get used to the new curriculum while covering things he knows, which should make it an easy and painless process. 
 

Fwiw, my oldest used BJU math through sixth grade and then switched to pre-algebra in 7th with a different publisher. So, not exactly the same scenario, but since you’re switching to a different publisher for upper level math, I thought I’d throw that out there.  

[Janeway]

On 2/24/2021 at 3:47 PM, countrymum said:

e narrowed it down to Horizons or BJU. I actually like Horizons teacher book be

I have used both and did not like Horizons in the end. It was too all over the place. It often had problems where it had not taught the concept yet. It felt a little more rote in the teaching where as BJU taught with very excellent critical thinking and broke down the steps very well. 

[8filltheheart]

5 hours ago, Janeway said:

I have used both and did not like Horizons in the end. It was too all over the place. It often had problems where it had not taught the concept yet. It felt a little more rote in the teaching where as BJU taught with very excellent critical thinking and broke down the steps very well. 

Horizons is spiral. It reviews concepts constantly vs focusing on concepts like a mastery program.  

Can you provide an example where it asked students to complete problems for concepts not taught? 

[Janeway]

2 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Horizons is spiral. It reviews concepts constantly vs focusing on concepts like a mastery program.  

Can you provide an example where it asked students to complete problems for concepts not taught? 

I no longer have the books so I cannot.  You can try to look through the books at a store to see, but it was really just something I noticed over a period of using it for a few years. It was the worst at the pre-algebra level, to the point where I tossed the book half way through. We used it for several levels. 

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

I no longer have the books so I cannot.  You can try to look through the books at a store to see, but it was really just something I noticed over a period of using it for a few years. It was the worst at the pre-algebra level, to the point where I tossed the book half way through. We used it for several levels. 

I asked bc I have taught Horizons non-stop since the mid 1990s.  I have never used the pre-alg book, so no opinion there.  But, in the k-6th grade books I have never witnessed any concepts that are not taught before expecting the student to know how to perform.  It is possible that the scope/sequence was different than other programs so the concepts were taught in a different level.

 

[Not_a_Number]

22 hours ago, Enigma6 said:

Keep in mind algebra takes some brain maturity, as well, that not every kid is ready for at 13.

I think that this is one of those statements that is actually circular. The reason some kids aren't ready for algebra at age 13 is that the class is designed for high school students, which means that the lessons tend to be dry and require a lot of organization. 

I would encourage everyone to gently introduce their kids to algebraic ideas as early as humanly possible, in order to let the ideas marinate. But that doesn't need to look like an official high school-level algebra class. 

[countrymum]

43 minutes ago, Enigma6 said:

Adding to 8fillstheheart (whom I respect highly and would never consciously insult): Horizons, if done from the start, does teach all the concepts well. If you jump in the middle after a concept has been explictly taught, it assumes this fact so doesn't give any review helps anywhere. The 2 programs are very different. As already pointed out, Horizons is spiral and BJU is mastery. It depends on which method works for your child and you as a teacher.

Yes, I can totally believe that, but how do I figure that out?;) I think I could probably make either work, so perhaps I should just pick one and go on? I would like to stick with whatever it is for everybody if I can😉

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, countrymum said:

I think I could probably make either work, so perhaps I should just pick one and go on? I would like to stick with whatever it is for everybody if I can

I think sticking with Horizons for the one for whom it's working was what we recommended to you early on in your math threads. There is no issue with that. But then the question of deciding that's what you want for ALL your kids, that's different. I get that it's an approach people make when they have multiple kids, and sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. 

Since the question of what to use with the rest seems to be giving you anxiety, why not disconnect the questions? The decision for the oldest doesn't have to be the decision for the rest. It's an almost independent (except in the youngest years) workbook series. It doesn't matter if he does one thing and the youngers do something more teacher intensive. 

There was a major jump in the level/challenge of the word problems going to Common Core. BJU ended up rewriting their entire curriculum to step it up to fit it, and I think if you can get a hold of current edition BJU and compare it to the Horizons, you'll see differences. Horizons is described as Cathy Duffy as "traditional" ie. not updated to Common Core though she thinks it hits CC topics.

It's not going to MATTER whether it's spiral or mastery, BJU or Horizons, with a percentage of kids, because they're so bright they'll just do well with ANY instruction. Remember, we see this on the boards all the time. People swear TT ruined their kids, and the next uses it and says oh my kid did great on standardized testing and the ACT with it! It's simple. Some kids can take ANY instruction and apply, infer, and make it happen. And some kids you shove through the most "think-y" program out there and they're still blind men in a cave, stumbling along, lol. 

So please don't stress yourself over something that literally MAY NOT MATTER for your kids. I'm just going to go out on a limb and say your kids are probably mostly (barring SLDs) likely to be fine no matter which one you choose. Which means you can be pragmatic. If you want to do parent intensive 2 years and then plop them into largely independent workbooks, they may be fine. You may look back on this in 10 years, as you get most of them through, and realize they were fine NO MATTER WHAT you chose. And if it's not going to matter, if they just need consistent work that can get done, then why stress? And if it *does* matter for a few of them, then identify those and customize for the ones for whom it really matters.

Edited March 19, 2021 by PeterPan

[8filltheheart]

8 hours ago, countrymum said:

Yes, I can totally believe that, but how do I figure that out?;) I think I could probably make either work, so perhaps I should just pick one and go on? I would like to stick with whatever it is for everybody if I can😉

I wouldn't go as far and say that what you use for kids without issues doesn't matter at all.  Even bright kids without LDs may need more concentrated practice (mastery) or more review of older concepts (spiral).  What makes or breaks the scenario when the student is in the opposite program is the teacher. 

I have kids all over the place in ability.  I have some super gifted kids.  I have some completely avg kids.  I have a granddaughter whose mom has a serious math disabiity and it has shown itself in my granddaughter.  Horizons has been a successful approach for all of them bc I taught/teach all of them.  I don't hand them the textbook and expect it to be all they need.  I might have to spend time writing down math problems on a dry erase board until the light bulb clicks or give them extra practice sheets (which the TM includes....I have only had to do this a couple of times.) 

The biggest difference in math outcomes in kids with normal ability is going to be teacher involvement in ensuring that the student understands math concepts.  Curriculum is only a tool.  That said, the success of the tool relies on the ability of the user.  Some approaches fit a teacher better than others.  For example, I really do not like the bar diagram model of teaching.  I'd rather teach my kids via simple algebra.  The Singapore model would have lead to poorer outcomes for my students bc I would not be as good of a teacher with it.  It might be considered a superior methodology, but if I can't teach it when they aren't connecting, it is simply reduced to words on a page.   

I am a firm believer that children need teachers.  So the program is less important than what you are able to successfully use.  I find Horizons very easy to teach.  It doesn't make leaps that kids haven't been exposed to.  It doesn't only teach algorithms.  The concepts are in the books and they progressively integrate the concepts into operations.  But, as a teacher, I have to be able to understand the significance of what they are doing.  For example, someone once posted that Horizons has kids borrowing in subtraction without ever explaining what they were doing and that is pure algorithm.  That is a huge disconnect between what the students had been learning for weeks and teacher understanding.  In the student textbook, the student had been regrouping with 10 and 1 rods for an extended period (32 with 3 ten rods and 2 one rods to 2 ten rods and 12 one rods, etc).  The entire point of the exercises was to help the student understand how to regroup when subtracting.  If the teacher cannot recognize a concept that has been worked on repeatedly, it is obviously not a good tool for that particular teacher.  That teacher needs everything in 1 single spot that immediately goes from that concept to borrowing so that she can make the connection in order to teach it.

Edited March 19, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[countrymum]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I wouldn't go as far and say that what you use for kids without issues doesn't matter at all.  Even bright kids without LDs may need more concentrated practice (mastery) or more review of older concepts (spiral).  What makes or breaks the scenario when the student is in the opposite program is the teacher. 

I have kids all over the place in ability.  I have some super gifted kids.  I have some completely avg kids.  I have a granddaughter whose mom has a serious math disabiity and it has shown itself in my granddaughter.  Horizons has been a successful approach for all of them bc I taught/teach all of them.  I don't hand them the textbook and expect it to be all they need.  I might have to spend time writing down math problems on a dry erase board until the light bulb clicks or give them extra practice sheets (which the TM includes....I have only had to do this a couple of times.) 

The biggest difference in math outcomes in kids with normal ability is going to be teacher involvement in ensuring that the student understands math concepts.  Curriculum is only a tool.  That said, the success of the tool relies on the ability of the user.  Some approaches fit a teacher better than others.  For example, I really do not like the bar diagram model of teaching.  I'd rather teach my kids via simple algebra.  The Singapore model would have lead to poorer outcomes for my students bc I would not be as good of a teacher with it.  It might be considered a superior methodology, but if I can't teach it when they aren't connecting, it is simply reduced to words on a page.   

I am a firm believer that children need teachers.  So the program is less important than what you are able to successfully use.  I find Horizons very easy to teach.  It doesn't make leaps that kids haven't been exposed to.  It doesn't only teach algorithms.  The concepts are in the books and they progressively integrate the concepts into operations.  But, as a teacher, I have to be able to understand the significance of what they are doing.  For example, someone once posted that Horizons has kids borrowing in subtraction without ever explaining what they were doing and that is pure algorithm.  That is a huge disconnect between what the students had been learning for weeks and teacher understanding.  In the student textbook, the student had been regrouping with 10 and 1 rods for an extended period (32 with 3 ten rods and 2 one rods to 2 ten rods and 12 one rods, etc).  The entire point of the exercises was to help the student understand how to regroup when subtracting.  If the teacher cannot recognize a concept that has been worked on repeatedly, it is obviously not a good tool for that particular teacher.  That teacher needs everything in 1 single spot that immediately goes from that concept to borrowing so that she can make the connection in order to teach it.

Yes. To needing a teacher. I like teaching math and fully expect to teach it whatever I use. I actually like to horizons manual better. I am better at adding then subtracting from curriculum.... I have several things I add in when needed (kate snow facts that stick, montessori stuff, calculadders, strayer upton....)

Also RightStarthits really hard on place value but my 2nd grader has now encountered that 3 tens and 7 ones equals 2 tens and ____ones in horizons. She totally needed my base 10 blocks to do lots of them.....It was a different way of looking at it for her.

[countrymum]

1 hour ago, seemesew said:

 

You both have made some very good reading about math programs! After years of struggle with math I have come to similar conclusions and math simply doesn't worry me anymore, I may still wonder about details in a book but I have learned its more about what I'm willing and able to teach than it is about which program is best. I really loved reading both your insights!

Yes, thank you both so much. In many ways it's freeing. I am finding my trial with Horizons for my older 2 going well this spring. (I switched both kids when 4th grade really didn't fit as I didn't really like the 2nd grade level the first time through and didn't like it any better this time. Also, this student works really well with something that has some independence built in. )

I think I'm going to keep both of them in Horizons. I will let my kindy kid be a seperate decision. Thanks

[Meadowlark]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but BJU's distance learning videos are amazing. I would be lost without them with 6 kids. They teach and explain things visually, SO much better than I ever did (and I tried). Just a thought!