History goals

[Little Green Leaves]

Yesterday,  I muddied up the math thread by grumbling that there aren't enough threads on teaching the humanities. So, here's a thread on history.

I've been thinking about what I want my kids to get out of learning history. Most of this is super long-term and not relevant at their ages at all, but I'm just going to list it, in no particular order.

Ability to evaluate the reliability of sources

Ability to understand (and make sense of) conflicting points of view)

Ability to interpret information in a variety of forms

Ability to frame questions 

Ability to communicate clearly in writing and orally about complex issues

Ability to both argue a point of view AND convey objective facts

Ability to draw parallels and connections between historical trends

Ability to differentiate between causality and coincidence

...there are probably lots and lots of other things I'm leaving out.

Right now, most of that is way, way off in the distance. Actually my main goal this year is to continue to have interesting talks about history but also to teach my older kid to ground himself. My rising 4th grader loves history and reads history for fun; he has a great memory for dates and facts, and he's able to make interesting connections between ideas. This makes sense to me, because he hears my husband and I talking about history and politics all the time; he knows the topic matters to us. He LOVES to join in our conversations, preferably when he can dazzle us with some breezy mention of dates and facts : ) 

So what I'd like to do is have him do some longer written work than he's done, so far, but to keep that written work very simple and factual. The written work, as I see it, is for discipline and perseverance, and for learning skills like paraphrasing and research. (Not fancy research, just reading our own reference books and writing, say, a short report on Theodore Roosevelt.) Then, we can have fun talks about history and make connections and draw parallels etc.

We are doing modern history and will be using a spine plus a lot of living books to supplement. I am planning about a month on each topic and thinking he'll write a short report on something of his choosing each month.

What are the rest of you doing for history?

 

[Little Green Leaves]

I'm also really curious about any "extras" that you guys do for history. Like I know @8FillTheHeart you've said that your kids create newspapers about history, which I think is something that would be a huge hit over here. How do you schedule that kind of project? How hands-on do you get with organizing that kind of work? In general, do you assign projects and leave your kids to just do them, or do you supervise at every stage? 

[Little Green Leaves]

1 minute ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I am playing it by ear with round 2. My oldest was a humanities kid through and through so that is what we made time for. Great books, history, and rhetoric where the main bulk of her high school courses, including classical astronomy. 

But I have a hunch that at least one of the younger ones is going to be far more science inclined, in which case it simply will not be practical to follow that same framework- I am a follow the child's bent type of mom/teacher. So I am not ruling out simple textbooks for history in high school for at least one..... I would probably guess Notgrass is what I will use if you put a gun to my head and made me chose right now, but I don't know. We didn't use any textbooks for history with oldest, so I haven't honestly looked at any. 

Right now, for elementary, we just read what we read. It's all story, myth, fable, fairy tale. I own multiple SL and Notgrass history programs, but haven't been able to stick with them in any meaningful way at this age in elementary. Core skill subjects still take up the bulk of our time, so I am very AO-ish at this point and just do read alouds- things like 50 Famous etc. We have had a timeline but it has only been for the purpose of them seeing what we have studied, as a sense of accomplishment (maybe more for me, lol) than for them to know what was when and make those types of links yet. But then the cat ate it, so now we are timeline-less. 

So sorry about your timeline!! Ours is just a bunch of papers taped to the wall but I would be so sad to see it go.

We have been very AO-ish up to this point to, and I'm planning to continue that way with my daughter (she's going into 2nd grade). So this is new territory for me and I guess that's why I'm posting about it. I feel like my son is ready to be more independent and I think he'd get a lot of satisfaction out of doing more, but I'll have to see how it actually goes.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I would consider most of the goals in the OP as critical thinking goals, and I see history as one of several vehicles to get those across.  

My history-specific goals are:

- Ability to place current events in their historical context

- Ability to interpret literature within its historical context

- Ability to think about life from various perspectives and themes of history.  

 

 

[Little Green Leaves]

Just now, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I will add that we do have a heavy focus on Art History, even at this age. But I know a lot of people don't consider that "history" in the same as the 3 or  4 year cycle type. We certainly aren't doing Art History chants or songs, lol. 

Haha I'm sure there ARE chants and songs but we're not doing them either.

We mostly take the AO approach to art history, by doing picture studies. Although we also have some History of Art books and I heard my son, the other day, giving my daughter a very bossy lesson about different Periods in Art. 

[Little Green Leaves]

1 minute ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I think we accomplished your outline of goals as much through Great Books and Rhetoric. History was part of both I guess, but was integrated and not separate I see looking back. There is only room for so much output, so just the way things were structure, GB and Rhetoric got almost all of the writing time.......

I wonder if you would like something like Reading like a historian for your son. It seems to be an interest of his, and something like it would also integrate a lot of the critical thinking skills you are aiming for as goals. 

Amending my earlier post, I am not opposed to going to TOG for my younger crew either. Now having taken one through graduation I have a greater appreciation for the overarching things TOG touches on than I did when we tried it years ago. 

What is TOG?

[Little Green Leaves]

5 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I think we accomplished your outline of goals as much through Great Books and Rhetoric. History was part of both I guess, but was integrated and not separate I see looking back. There is only room for so much output, so just the way things were structure, GB and Rhetoric got almost all of the writing time.......

I wonder if you would like something like Reading like a historian for your son. It seems to be an interest of his, and something like it would also integrate a lot of the critical thinking skills you are aiming for as goals. 

Amending my earlier post, I am not opposed to going to TOG for my younger crew either. Now having taken one through graduation I have a greater appreciation for the overarching things TOG touches on than I did when we tried it years ago. 

I've never heard of Reading Like a Historian -- thanks, I'll look it up.

I totally agree that there's only room for so much output, and my goals for history could also be met in other ways. I guess I'm thinking about history because my kid loves history and I'm following his lead; I was actually thinking that I won't have him do much output for literature and it'll be something we just read and talk about together.

Then again, I WAS planning on having him do a separate writing program, so I'll have to see whether that ends up being too much. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Little Green Leaves

[8filltheheart]

23 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I'm also really curious about any "extras" that you guys do for history. Like I know @8FillTheHeart you've said that your kids create newspapers about history, which I think is something that would be a huge hit over here. How do you schedule that kind of project? How hands-on do you get with organizing that kind of work? In general, do you assign projects and leave your kids to just do them, or do you supervise at every stage? 

Those are the type of writing assignments I generate for my kids.  I don't ever assign an "English" writing assignment.  I pull their writing assignments from the subjects they are studying. Depending on the age of the child, I might be helping them find resource material, reviewing notes, helping form outlines, etc or I might not be overly involved until a rough draft for a "piece" is completed.

[Little Green Leaves]

5 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I'm a fan of following their interest so I thing it is great you are following his lead! As he gets older I think Lit and History intersect more too which helps. 

I started out with buying Sonlight when we pulled oldest out of school because I had no idea what else to do. I didn't know about these boards or anything else............and it turned her into a history lover. So then it sort of morphed from there and I just continued following her lead, but I will fully admit there was no grand plan or scheme- that is for sure!! I think my longest term plan was once we found Wes and she loved his courses so much we were all in there with him, and everything else had to fall in place around it. So I guess you could say Wes Callihan was the center of my homeschool high school which sounds nuts, but it really was. I am sort of bummed he won't be teaching by the time the younger ones are old enough for his classes but at least he has recordings. 

See, this is all so helpful, thanks. I don't know who Wes Callihan is and now I'm going to look him up. That Reading Like a Historian program looks really good too.

[Little Green Leaves]

6 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Those are the type of writing assignments I generate for my kids.  I don't ever assign an "English" writing assignment.  I pull their writing assignments from the subjects they are studying. Depending on the age of the child, I might be helping them find resource material, reviewing notes, helping form outlines, etc or I might not be overly involved until a rough draft for a "piece" is completed.

So you don't have your kids do a separate writing program? I have been so torn about that.

[8filltheheart]

FWIW, none of my kids have received the same education b/c I alter their educations to meet the goals I want to achieve prior to  their graduation and moving out of our home.  For example, with my physicsgeek, we dug deep into the philosophy of science and religion b/c I knew he would be surrounded by atheists.  With my dd, we dug deep into communism b/c she was planning on majoring in Russian.   

For all of my kids, understanding the larger scope of historical events, causes (more important to me than knowing exact dates--I'm satisfied with general time framework), and influences of movements are my main objectives and being able to use that information to evaluate whys across the spectrum of subjects.  (How does "history" reflect movements in culture, science, philosophy, religion, politics, etc.)   

When they are younger, it is simply a matter of reading about people and history to start forming a simple time/geographic reference framework.

[8filltheheart]

7 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

So you don't have your kids do a separate writing program? I have been so torn about that.

You can use a writing "program" to teach basic writing skills but not use the lame assignments that all writing programs I have ever seen include.  😉  Create writing assignments that fit what you are doing in your home.

[almondbutterandjelly]

OP, this is interesting.  Most of what you want for history, we did in English class.  We just read and enjoyed history.  Watched most of the Horrible Histories videos at the appropriate time period.  Read historical fiction for free reading.  Not much "output."  For History.  I guess I am more comfortable with English, so that's where I addressed most of the things you mentioned.

To toot my dd's horn:  She has always loved history.  In college, her first semester, she was adored by her history prof, and he used one of her papers as an example paper.  Plus at the end of the semester, he sent her an email, and had someone from the history department send her an email also, about how great it would be to be a history major.  (She's Pre-Nursing.)  This is me patting myself on the back.  🙂

Best wishes!

[Little Green Leaves]

3 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

FWIW, none of my kids have received the same education b/c I alter their educations to meet the goals I want to achieve prior to  their graduation and moving out of our home.  For example, with my physicsgeek, we dug deep into the philosophy of science and religion b/c I knew he would be surrounded by atheists.  With my dd, we dug deep into communism b/c she was planning on majoring in Russian.   

For all of my kids, understanding the larger scope of historical events, causes (more important to me than knowing exact dates--I'm satisfied with general time framework), and influences of movements are my main objectives and being able to use that information to evaluate whys across the spectrum of subjects.  (How does "history" reflect movements in culture, science, philosophy, religion, politics, etc.)   

When they are younger, it is simply a matter of reading about people and history to start forming a simple time/geographic reference framework.

I really like this individualized approach.

With my kid, he pretty much already has a simple time and geographic reference. Like he already can talk about the Russian Revolution, the colonization of Africa, the Greek dark ages, Manifest Destiny...I'm not saying he has deep knowledge of these things, but he has a very, very good basic overview, thanks to all the hours he's spent reading history books. He loves this stuff. I am trying to figure out what the right next step is, so that he's still having fun with it and is also building skills. Right now, he is super aware of how much he knows and can easily veer into showing off, especially since he's the big brother in the house. I don't mean that as a put-down, he is a very sweet kid. I want to follow his interest, and encourage it, but also keep him grounded.

[Little Green Leaves]

6 minutes ago, perkybunch said:

OP, this is interesting.  Most of what you want for history, we did in English class.  We just read and enjoyed history.  Watched most of the Horrible Histories videos at the appropriate time period.  Read historical fiction for free reading.  Not much "output."  For History.  I guess I am more comfortable with English, so that's where I addressed most of the things you mentioned.

To toot my dd's horn:  She has always loved history.  In college, her first semester, she was adored by her history prof, and he used one of her papers as an example paper.  Plus at the end of the semester, he sent her an email, and had someone from the history department send her an email also, about how great it would be to be a history major.  (She's Pre-Nursing.)  This is me patting myself on the back.  🙂

Best wishes!

I am probably more comfortable with English too! But I have a kid who is crazy about history, at least for now. I am secretly hoping that my other kid goes in a more literary direction. 

You should totally pat yourself on the back for that. Although kudos to your daughter for going pre-nursing. Some of the happiest people I know are nurses, in spite of the stress. They're changing people's lives, they're challenged, and they also seem to have the freedom to work all around the world; I know a few people who moved to Europe and had no trouble finding work after learning the language.

[Little Green Leaves]

5 minutes ago, OneThoughtMayHideAnother said:

Very cool! What do you think were the books that first sparked his interest in reading about history? Were they read-alouds? What were the first books about history that he enjoyed reading independently? 

(Asking for selfish reasons. I've got a first grader who loves to read, but he mostly enjoys fiction. The closest he'd go to reading about history independently are mythology and religion books from around the world or time-traveling books like the Time Warp Trio or the Interactive Adventure Tales. We did SOTWI as a read-aloud last year, together with perhaps 30 accompanying books. He really enjoyed all of them, but he wouldn't go back to re-read them independently unless - again - it was either myth or historical fiction. And he is usually a big "re-reader".) 

Mine was totally obsessed with myths and folk tales too! I don't know the Time Warp Trip or the Interactive Adventure Tales -- thank you!

He's been on this history kick for such a long time. Before history he was into maps. When he was three or four a friend of mine bought him the National Geographic kids' world atlas and he wore it to shreds. It has a section for each continent, and a little write-up about geographical features and local customs and foods, and it's very nicely done. He used to play these very cute games where he said he was "going to Croatia" ie down to the end of the hallway with a bag of his toys. I read Story of the World I with him, and from there he started getting really into ancient history. So I guess SOTW sparked the interest? I don't remember most of  the other books because they were from the library -- our library has a lot of books on ancient Egypt, so we read lots of those, and whatever they had on ancient Greece and Rome also. When he was in 1st grade I did US history with him, because our state requires it every year, and he was bummed because it's so much less exciting than ancient history. 

We have the Usborne encyclopedia of ancient history, and any kind of encyclopedia has always gone over well. I really encourage longer living books just because I don't want him just harvesting facts, which I think encyclopedias make it very easy to do. But we do have encyclopedias and text books. Our library also had some gorgeous books showing ancient cities, and kids wearing ancient garb, but I don't remember what they are called and my extremely vague google searches are not getting me any answers. I wish I had kept a list of books.

He reads a lot of fiction too, and he loves reading about sports and games, and plenty of goofy stuff and comic books, but he always seems to come back to history. 

[Little Green Leaves]

1 hour ago, OneThoughtMayHideAnother said:

Very cool! What do you think were the books that first sparked his interest in reading about history? Were they read-alouds? What were the first books about history that he enjoyed reading independently? 

(Asking for selfish reasons. I've got a first grader who loves to read, but he mostly enjoys fiction. The closest he'd go to reading about history independently are mythology and religion books from around the world or time-traveling books like the Time Warp Trio or the Interactive Adventure Tales. We did SOTWI as a read-aloud last year, together with perhaps 30 accompanying books. He really enjoyed all of them, but he wouldn't go back to re-read them independently unless - again - it was either myth or historical fiction. And he is usually a big "re-reader".) 

Okay, I think I just remembered one book that was a big deal for getting my kid into history. Bullfinch's Mythology. It's a big, unwieldy collection of myths, folk tales, and medieval stories. We found it, of all places, in our building's discard pile (everyone in our apartment building puts their old unwanted books and still-working electronics on a table in the basement). That's what tied together mythology to history; there's a long excerpt from the Song of Roland, and I think there are other tales about Charlemagne. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

our library has a lot of books on ancient Egypt, so we read lots of those, and whatever they had on ancient Greece and Rome also. When he was in 1st grade I did US history with him, because our state requires it every year, and he was bummed because it's so much less exciting than ancient history. 

Yes, being a strong reader makes it easy to engage with history! My dd was this way. I could just throw things at her. I have some books of history discussions/controversies someone suggested to me. You can find things like that. You might like to look at the book lists for TOG, even if you're not going to use it, because it would get you onto some great series and authors that your library system would have. He's at a great age for authors like 

Jim Murphy

Susan Bartoletti

etc

If you rabbit trail their books on amazon, you'll find others. Here's one https://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Youth-Growing-Hitlers-Scholastic/dp/1338309846/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2LWHW7ALR4GZQ&dchild=1&keywords=susan+bartoletti&qid=1597863302&sprefix=susan+bart%2Caps%2C172&sr=8-3  You'll see that they're hitting those controversies and debates you're wanting, and they're doing it in ways that a 4th-7th grader can access. 

Have you looked into National History Day? As a rising 4th grader, he's eligible to compete though he can't go to nationals. He could look at the displays at your regionals this year and compete next. You could spend this time getting connected with a mentor. Someone here on the boards mentored me when my dd did it. Great stuff, totally worth the time. https://www.nhd.org

Winning on national level competitions is *huge* in college applications. If this is something he's into, nurture it. Even if he's not, nurture it. LOL

[Little Green Leaves]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

How old was he when he read it? 

 

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, being a strong reader makes it easy to engage with history! My dd was this way. I could just throw things at her. I have some books of history discussions/controversies someone suggested to me. You can find things like that. You might like to look at the book lists for TOG, even if you're not going to use it, because it would get you onto some great series and authors that your library system would have. He's at a great age for authors like 

Jim Murphy

Susan Bartoletti

etc

If you rabbit trail their books on amazon, you'll find others. Here's one https://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Youth-Growing-Hitlers-Scholastic/dp/1338309846/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2LWHW7ALR4GZQ&dchild=1&keywords=susan+bartoletti&qid=1597863302&sprefix=susan+bart%2Caps%2C172&sr=8-3  You'll see that they're hitting those controversies and debates you're wanting, and they're doing it in ways that a 4th-7th grader can access. 

Have you looked into National History Day? As a rising 4th grader, he's eligible to compete though he can't go to nationals. He could look at the displays at your regionals this year and compete next. You could spend this time getting connected with a mentor. Someone here on the boards mentored me when my dd did it. Great stuff, totally worth the time. https://www.nhd.org

Winning on national level competitions is *huge* in college applications. If this is something he's into, nurture it. Even if he's not, nurture it. LOL

Thank you!! I did not know that there were history competitions. 

I have been so confused trying to figure out how much he should be thinking about controversies and debate vs doing the basic stuff that fourth graders should do, like writing simple reports. We haven't done that stuff yet. I don't want him to skip a step, do you know what I mean? almost like I want to make sure he eats his spinach before having dessert?

Thank you for these ideas about books and authors -- I am so looking forward to reading through it!

[Little Green Leaves]

10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

How old was he when he read it? 

I don't know. Little enough that he was very very cute about it, trundling around with his "Bullfinch's." But he read and reread that book for a long time. I am sure he did not understand every word of it but he really wanted the stories, so he plowed through.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Yeah, we're in the same boat over here. I need more materials that would spark an interest, because I was kind of hoping Horrible Histories would do it, and they were a bust. 

What do you want to happen? Sometimes you can find *women* in history, and that can help. By that age my dd had read through all the COFAs. She would look at the timelines and try to make connections. By 4th/5th she was reading adult books on her preferred topics. You probably just need to move on. If she's a strong reader, look at the recs for say TOG or VP and then bump 1-2 years and they might fit. Same gig with WTM, just look for the recs 1-2 years up.

To me the question in teaching is whether I'm facilitating (helping her do it to herself) or doing for her what she won't do for herself (nitty gritties, sequences, skills). I never tried too hard to "teach" history with all that debate and analysis, because frankly it's not my cuppa. I don't like history, am not strong in history, and have no plans to like history or become strong in history. I'd rather learn Korean or take up a new hobby or something if I'm putting my brain energy somewhere. 

So there are books to help you become a better teacher if you want to be (having those conversations), and it's ok just generally to make sure they get enough skill in reading, research, and narrative language that they CAN interact with that person when they come upon them.  You can pick spines that make it happen. 

I tended to throw a lot of the controversies at her in other ways come the middle years. Hopefully it was good enough. Personally, I'm pretty feminist in my history philosophy and think it STINKS to say that all people need to learn exactly the same things, that the things that matter most are (pick whatever is in vogue at the moment in the ps or dead white MEN of the neoclassical movement or whatever). I think patriotism is important. But beyond that, I tried to give my DAUGHTER exposure to as many WOMEN as I could. Why should she not have access to her heritage or know what women were doing during those times??

And conversely, I think that giving my ds his dead white male heritage is a good thing. Not that we can't cross over, but it's his heritage. I've decided it's something I will *emphasize* more. What men were doing, why they did it, how they became who they were, etc. 

Whatever. Guess I was trying to figure out if @Little Green Leaves has read WTM, as it would answer a lot of her questions. At this age, 4th-ish, we were outlining OTHER people's arguments. So I'd given her well written essays from say Muse magazine (which you can get from the library in print or digitally, you'll love it and others from that publisher) and she would outline them using a mindmapping app, whiteboard, whatever. EXCELLENT exercise. Outlining history encyclopedias was so, so boring. I wanted her to see the flow of an argument.

And yes, if you can overlap the history and writing, it may be better.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I have been so confused trying to figure out how much he should be thinking about controversies and debate vs doing the basic stuff that fourth graders should do, like writing simple reports. We haven't done that stuff yet. I don't want him to skip a step, do you know what I mean? almost like I want to make sure he eats his spinach before having dessert?

At this link you'll find a chart for expository writing structures. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  If you know which structure you're attempting to have him write, then it's more clear how to get there. Is he writing narratives right now at all? This is something WTM recommends, and it's very wise, because it's a simple thing that builds skills over time. In 4th we like to see those narrative skills begin to transition to outlining other people's arguments. You can then formulate arguments ORALLY that you then learn to structure in writing. 

I used a book of debate prompts around that age that you might enjoy. https://www.pasd.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_435476/File/Teachers/Corcoran/communications/debate/50 Debate prompts (3).pdf  Maybe it's time to do them with my ds, hehe. 

[Little Green Leaves]

Just now, PeterPan said:

At this link you'll find a chart for expository writing structures. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  If you know which structure you're attempting to have him write, then it's more clear how to get there. Is he writing narratives right now at all? This is something WTM recommends, and it's very wise, because it's a simple thing that builds skills over time. In 4th we like to see those narrative skills begin to transition to outlining other people's arguments. You can then formulate arguments ORALLY that you then learn to structure in writing. 

I used a book of debate prompts around that age that you might enjoy. https://www.pasd.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_435476/File/Teachers/Corcoran/communications/debate/50 Debate prompts (3).pdf  Maybe it's time to do them with my ds, hehe. 

Yes, he started writing narrations last year. He grumbled about them, but did a good job. I had not thought to have him outline other people's arguments! Thank you. I'll read through this chart and the prompts.

[PeterPan]

Just now, square_25 said:

What are COFAs? 

She's a strong reader, yeah, but she far prefers stories that are plot-driven and not fact-driven. So what I really want is to expose her to lots of time periods, so she can build up her knowledge web to hang things on. 

Childhood of Famous Americans series. They're pretty low, not more than maybe a 4th grade reading level, but they're adorable, well written. They go back to collectibles and have newer rewrites. There were about 200 some in the series. I own most of them, sigh. 

So there has been a real blossoming of narrative nonfiction in the last few years. It may just be that the best stuff is still in *science* not history. Melissa Stewart is leading that movement. She has a new book on the 5 types of nonfiction coming out. If you google for it, you'll probably find her pdf flyer and info. Might give you some ideas on other directions to look for nonfiction. I'm all for fiction too, but if you want nonfiction that might be a way. And of course the TOG lists and rabbitting people like Susan Campbell Bartoletti. 

Don't you think that the "I love history so I TEACH" it obsession is sort of the opposite of knowledge web to hang things on? The assumption is broad exposure creates that web, but kids are funny. Some remember those SOTW type exposures and many remember NOTHING. So if you literally only care about the framework, then memorizing the sequence and basics might get you there faster. That's the theory of VP and is probably what I'm going to do with ds. He's full of side details and stories from documentaries and short on straight through sequences. That framework is necessary for the background/prior knowledge for reading comprehension. So for him, I'm probably just gonna blaze through the VP cards this year, no deep dives. Our deep dives will be geography, where I'll patronistically look for what MEN were doing in those countries across time, haha.

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

So, we've never done narrations -- can someone tell me what the idea behind them is? What skills are they teaching? Are there other ways you could work on those skills? 

Hmm, so are you saying you've never read WTM, the book by the provider of this forum? LOL Ok. See back 10+ years ago, SWB was doing conventions and the book was at a peak and and... and it meant reading the book was sort of a unifier and common ground here. It hadn't occurred to me that people hadn't bothered.

It's a little thick but you know, hey, go sunbathe and blast through it. Have even more fun and read her sequel WEM. I never read her other book (Rethinking), sorry. 

So yeah, WTM gives you her take on how to tidily integrate narrative into your whole academic progression. It's all there. If you want a more *clinical* of why and how, https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  Narrative language is all the rage in the ps, because it underlies reading comprehension, writing, on and on. And of course it's something homeschoolers can do WELL and which many kids, with just normal amounts of effort, will develop naturally. If kids have EF issues, narrative language will be affected. If kids have ASD, narrative language will be affected. Dyslexia seems to bleed over with narrative language issues. 

So some kids need it taught explicitly, much less randomly than "narrate what you read today" hehe. And some kids are going to narrate BEAUTIFULLY even without ever being *told* to do a narration. If I were *guessing* I would guess that your dd already narrates beautifully. No EF issues, and you've been doing your "math talks" where you narrate (woo woo) what you did. Whether you want to BOTHER to do that with history (which remember I don't like, so I would do as little as possible, haha) is up to you. The point is just to have the language development, but whether you do it talking about movies you watched together or math or history or science or politics or whatever is really just up to you and how your family rolls. Barring disabilities, narrative language should develop pretty naturally following the charts I linked. You can see where she is in the progression and decide for yourself if anything disastrous has happened. 

Edited August 19, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

8 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Oh, I guess she did a huge summary of the book series she read called The Sisters Grimm, so we've done narrative before. And in general, I try to get her to talk out her reasoning and sometimes I get her to talk about her books. She's not always interested in talking about the books she's reading, but when she is, she's pretty coherent. I don't think she would generally enjoy specifically narrative-based written assignments unless she's inspired, though... do you think just having her talk things out does the work? 

well i'd hate to turn your math logic about skill and competence over to LA

(sorry, put my splint back on, terse it is)

Edited August 19, 2020 by PeterPan

[rebcoola]

My main goal is for my kids not sound like morons if they are ever stopped on the street and asked questions like the old Leno segments. 

I love history the kids like it okay tried to keep it fun and focus on projects.  I don't like to.add writing to history until they are profecient at 5 paragraph essays.  

My kids are both more interested in social sciences subjects so we are making our own survey course to learn the basics of psychology, sociology, anthropology that kind of stuff.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

My main goal is for my kids not sound like morons if they are ever stopped on the street and asked questions like the old Leno segments. 

What's your favorite "so my kids don't sound like idiots on Leno" resource?

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

My main goal is for my kids not sound like morons if they are ever stopped on the street and asked questions like the old Leno segments. 

I love history the kids like it okay tried to keep it fun and focus on projects.  I don't like to.add writing to history until they are profecient at 5 paragraph essays.  

My kids are both more interested in social sciences subjects so we are making our own survey course to learn the basics of psychology, sociology, anthropology that kind of stuff.

May I ask why.  Really just curious bc most of my kids haven't been proficient at essay writing at 13, so that would mean my kids would never have written about anything history related until high school.

[PeterPan]

So total aside, but I had a talk with someone years ago who was working a ps classroom, and she said the kids spent a lot of time on OPINION and didn't really have a lot of knowledge on which toBASE their opinon.

I took it to mean we'll be imbalanced in some way, that no one hits EVERYTHING and to at least be intentional. Like for my ds, I've been slower to emphasize narrative, because we've put our energy andSLP hours into getting his vocalic R (finally pretty solid, seems to be done with articulation after 9 ½ years). We ust aren't goig to get to do everything. For him, I was more cool with going out of order, bizarre facts and controversies first, narrative later as the ability comes in. Gives him something to talk about, lol.

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

OK, I am sorry to interfere with your terseness, but I have no clue what you mean. 

LOL In the other threads you were all about early, consistent exposure and correct practice building skill and good habits. Formath. But now for LA you aren't going the same way. Just thought it was interesting. 

[rebcoola]

17 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

May I ask why.  Really just curious bc most of my kids haven't been proficient at essay writing at 13, so that would mean my kids would never have written about anything history related until high school.

I don't really see a reason to add extra writing over our writing courses.  I could see not having a writing course and just writing across subjects.  I see no reason to do both before high school.   We keep most of our school work project based and interest led.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

But I'm never sure whether narrative hits some skills I'm not thinking about myself. 

Narrative is not this totally separate thing. If you look at it from the speech therapy and language development angle, narrative language develops in a known sequence. So people do retellings create narratives that develop in a known progression of what linguistic and SEL components they include. It was all at that link. And those structures then give the language and thought process that leads to expository structures. They parallel, again if you look at the charts.

So there is nothing mysterious. You're already doing it, lol. You're just way beyond "write me a narration". I me an, you can if you want, but at some point the kid will look back at you and say why, read it yourself... Hahaha

[Meriwether]

whisper: Fun.

[LostintheCosmos]

I'm a historian by training, but I don't intend to teach history the way historians do it - the actual skills of a professional historian don't seem to me to be very useful outside that context. For gen ed purposes, it seems to me there are two reasons to study history: the first is that it is the best evidence we have for what man is like, how he behaves, and how change happens; the second is to understand ourselves better (like a professor of mine said, "If you want to know what something is, study how it became"). Knowing history seems especially important to being a good citizen. 

I like the Montessori approach of starting history study by looking at how people have met their fundamental needs in different times and places - universal characteristics expressed differently based on the contingencies of history and geography. As my kids get older, I plan to focus more and more on how individuals have exercised power - for their own sake or for the sake of those they have power over? How were they constrained by their circumstances and how were they free? What were the results - intended and unintended - of their actions? 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

5 hours ago, square_25 said:

Perhaps there's still hope for me 😉 . I should read more fun history, anyway. Any favorites? 

 

SOTW 😂

I will not call myself a history buff, but I was history-averse until I started studying with the kids.  Then I'd find after a particular chapter that I wanted to know more about a topic, so I'd read up on it.  Then I wanted to know a LOT more about Elizabeth 1st, so I... gasp... read a full-length adult biography of her!  It almost killed me, but I did it!  Then I read Wild Swans because a friend gave it to me, and that sent me down this whole rabbit trail of Chinese history.  And NOW I'm doing Russian history.  It just sort of happened.  And don't get me started on the Drama of US History book series I'm doing with the kids.  I'm OBSESSED with it.  When it's history lesson time, I'm downright giddy if it's DoUSH time.  

I think living in Europe has changed me.  The average person is just so incredibly well-informed about current events that I started feeling inferior.  And then homeschooling the kids just really put that spark to the kindling and now I will read history pretty willingly.  

[Shoeless]

12 hours ago, square_25 said:

Well, this whole "running out of time" thing is a serious problem. I'm already doing more than an hour per grade level for DD8, since she's a focused and ambitious kid, but I can't imagine adding on even MORE. And it's not even like we do a TON of math per day -- we do an hour or so. So an hour of math, an hour of piano, an hour of Russian and... yeah, the rest kinda has to be of limited rigor. There's just no more time. 

 

This may be a scandalous opinion, but I would probably not do a rigorous study of history or science or anything else right now, unless your daughter was requesting it. You have some very rigorous, ambitious studies going on right now.  She's only 8 and as you said, there are only so many hours in the day.  As she gets older and is able to work more independently, you can add in more topics for study. I mean, it's not like she's loafing around playing Pokemon all day!  She's engaged in very deep and meaningful learning, but with a more narrow focus, which kind of jives with what many gifted kids do. 🤷‍♀️ 

I would expect that as she becomes more fluent in Russian, she may not need to dedicate an hour daily to language study.  That hour could morph into a a study of Russian culture, literature, art, history, etc. 

[Lb20inblue]

I come from a culture that says it's important to know of your ancestors so that you can understand your grand kids.  We learn history so we can learn the fables and the main stories our culture like to tell ourselves about the past.  We are starting US history for the first time with my kids this year and it's been interesting to say the least.  I cracked up for such a long time when one of them told my husband the puritans ran away like brats because they didn't like English rules.  Of course, it's a bit more complicated than that but its been nice to have the kids come up with their own narratives of history and also learn the commonly accepted ones.

[PeterPan]

16 hours ago, LostCove said:

I like the Montessori approach of starting history study by looking at how people have met their fundamental needs in different times and places - universal characteristics expressed differently based on the contingencies of history and geography. As my kids get older, I plan to focus more and more on how individuals have exercised power - for their own sake or for the sake of those they have power over? How were they constrained by their circumstances and how were they free? What were the results - intended and unintended - of their actions? 

This theme driven study is what WEM (the WTM sequel) encourages. I think it's the solution to history hating, because it allows you to choose your own way to organize your brain across time. Also anything that gets the person to big picture and busts through the overwhelming fractal nature of history is helpful. People who like history tend to like the fractal nature of it. Then there's the rest of us, lol. 

Btw, is there any easy way for us to learn more about the Montessori approach to history, geography, etc?

Edited August 20, 2020 by PeterPan

[LostintheCosmos]

55 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

This theme driven study is what WEM (the WTM sequel) encourages. I think it's the solution to history hating, because it allows you to choose your own way to organize your brain across time. Also anything that gets the person to big picture and busts through the overwhelming fractal nature of history is helpful. People who like history tend to like the fractal nature of it. Then there's the rest of us, lol. 

Yes, I think the key for me to beginning to enjoy history in high school was realizing it wasn't just an interminable catalog of people who held offices at certain times and wars and so on, but that history could explain things that I was curious about. 

55 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Btw, is there any easy way for us to learn more about the Montessori approach to history, geography, etc?

Children of the Universe is a pretty good overview of the elementary (6-12) curriculum. To Educate the Human Potential is probably the fullest of Montessori's own statements on the elementary child. I googled and found a pretty nice blogpost about the fundamental needs work in particular - this is similar to how we tend to do it here, though I don't buy materials, don't laminate a million three-part cards, or anything like that. We made our own fundamental needs chart and are making booklets for each era we study. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by LostCove

[vonfirmath]

19 hours ago, square_25 said:

Perhaps there's still hope for me 😉 . I should read more fun history, anyway. Any favorites? 

My Dear Hamilton

 

[Little Green Leaves]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

This theme driven study is what WEM (the WTM sequel) encourages. I think it's the solution to history hating, because it allows you to choose your own way to organize your brain across time. Also anything that gets the person to big picture and busts through the overwhelming fractal nature of history is helpful. People who like history tend to like the fractal nature of it. Then there's the rest of us, lol. 

Btw, is there any easy way for us to learn more about the Montessori approach to history, geography, etc?

This idea that history is overwhelmingly fractal really made me think...in my mind, history is like a big city with lots of different neighborhoods. You can walk through it on any avenue you please, getting a different view of the city each time, and noticing how the different neighborhoods are related to each other.

 

Editing to be less cryptic, I hope. What I mean is that ultimately, history is all connected, just like the neighborhoods in a city are all connected. Maybe you start out just enjoying one neighborhood, and then get interested in the others...or maybe you only want to learn about grocery stores (some specific issue or another) so you compare the stores in the different neighborhoods. There are lots of different approaches.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Little Green Leaves

[LostintheCosmos]

On 8/19/2020 at 8:09 PM, square_25 said:

nterestingly, thinking about what man is like using the available evidence is actually a strength of mine, even though I'm rotten at historical dates and facts. But I do think I would do better if I did have more of a vision for how history all fit together. 

I'm not sure what kind of framework you are looking for, but you might like Felipe Fernandez-Arnesto's work - he is an excellent scholar, but also writes very engagingly for a general audience. Civilizations is kind of like Montessori's fundamental needs work for grown-ups.

Edited August 21, 2020 by LostCove

[Little Green Leaves]

19 hours ago, LostCove said:

Yes, I think the key for me to beginning to enjoy history in high school was realizing it wasn't just an interminable catalog of people who held offices at certain times and wars and so on, but that history could explain things that I was curious about. 

Children of the Universe is a pretty good overview of the elementary (6-12) curriculum. To Educate the Human Potential is probably the fullest of Montessori's own statements on the elementary child. I googled and found a pretty nice blogpost about the fundamental needs work in particular - this is similar to how we tend to do it here, though I don't buy materials, don't laminate a million three-part cards, or anything like that. We made our own fundamental needs chart and are making booklets for each era we study. 

 

19 hours ago, LostCove said:

Yes, I think the key for me to beginning to enjoy history in high school was realizing it wasn't just an interminable catalog of people who held offices at certain times and wars and so on, but that history could explain things that I was curious about. 

Children of the Universe is a pretty good overview of the elementary (6-12) curriculum. To Educate the Human Potential is probably the fullest of Montessori's own statements on the elementary child. I googled and found a pretty nice blogpost about the fundamental needs work in particular - this is similar to how we tend to do it here, though I don't buy materials, don't laminate a million three-part cards, or anything like that. We made our own fundamental needs chart and are making booklets for each era we study. 

I think the fundamental needs approach is really interesting, although I think it should always be stressed that it's a dynamic, not a static set-up. I also feel confused about the way it's being taught on the blog linked here,. I know the child is very little, but I would not teach even a little kid to think that ALL the people in a given historical period had the same needs, and that they all met them in the same way; I wouldn't necessarily teach kids to believe that everyone was having all their needs successfully met. Honestly I get uncomfortable whenever a kid is being made to glue print-outs onto paper because it just feels like there's a right and a wrong answer and this subject seems like one where there's room for lots and lots of discussion and lots and lots of different answers.

I think it's important to teach about social history and not just about Great Men or leaders...but I also think many teachers end up over-simplifying and acting as though the "ordinary people" are just one vast undifferentiated mob. I'm not saying that's what anyone here is doing, at all...I'm just thinking. 

When I was in elementary school our teachers talked a lot about Native Americans and the wrongs inflicted on them, which was really well-intentioned and a big step forward. It was still problematic, though, and I remember being confused by it as a kid. They almost never talked about individual Native Americans, or about changes to culture over time, or even really the huge differences between different tribes in our huge country. European culture was taught as constantly changing and evolving, and directed by individuals, whereas Native American culture was static and basically faceless. I think it is easy to fall into this.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Little Green Leaves said:

European culture was taught as constantly changing and evolving, and directed by individuals, whereas Native American culture was static and basically faceless

It makes sense they would over simplify something they don’t know

[LostintheCosmos]

3 hours ago, Little Green Leaves said:

I think the fundamental needs approach is really interesting, although I think it should always be stressed that it's a dynamic, not a static set-up. I also feel confused about the way it's being taught on the blog linked here,. I know the child is very little, but I would not teach even a little kid to think that ALL the people in a given historical period had the same needs, and that they all met them in the same way; I wouldn't necessarily teach kids to believe that everyone was having all their needs successfully met. Honestly I get uncomfortable whenever a kid is being made to glue print-outs onto paper because it just feels like there's a right and a wrong answer and this subject seems like one where there's room for lots and lots of discussion and lots and lots of different answers.

I think it's important to teach about social history and not just about Great Men or leaders...but I also think many teachers end up over-simplifying and acting as though the "ordinary people" are just one vast undifferentiated mob. I'm not saying that's what anyone here is doing, at all...I'm just thinking. 

When I was in elementary school our teachers talked a lot about Native Americans and the wrongs inflicted on them, which was really well-intentioned and a big step forward. It was still problematic, though, and I remember being confused by it as a kid. They almost never talked about individual Native Americans, or about changes to culture over time, or even really the huge differences between different tribes in our huge country. European culture was taught as constantly changing and evolving, and directed by individuals, whereas Native American culture was static and basically faceless. I think it is easy to fall into this.

A lot of card materials will make a distinction between, say, the clothing of a poor person and a rich person in a given era - it's simple, but I think it works for a 6-9 year old. Some fundamental needs charts also include a category related to social structure. Also, I think that, ideally, Montessori card materials work differently from fill-in-the-blank type worksheets, but that would be getting really into the weeds on Montessori, and, at any rate, I don't use card materials myself.

We use the framework of fundamental needs to create our own materials (I couldn't find one chart that had all the categories I wanted anyway), and I vet the resources we use for that. We can make the study as complex as we want, and it is easy to vary the complexity for each of my children depending on their age and previous exposure to our topic. 

Additionally, a major piece of elementary studies is the idea of "going out" to take advantages of other resources in the local community. So, to take your example, we don't learn about Native American cultures just through books or or set of card materials, we go and see the pre-Columbian archaeological sites in our area - this naturally leads to the discovery that Native American culture is neither static nor monolithic. It also helps us appreciate the difference between archaeology and history.

There are two different ways to think about history: is it the study of the past or is it the study of change over time? Developmentally, I think you have to establish the first before you can move on to the second, and it is a very big concept for young children to wrap their mind around. My youngest student still basically thinks of time as now and "when grandpa was little" and is just starting to get a handle on the idea that there was a time before grandpa was alive. So I would distinguish the fundamental needs work from social history, which has embedded in it certain ideas about the causes of historical change. 

And to be honest, I'm more concerned about my children coming away from studying history with an over-simplified view of historical change than I am worried that they won't have the most accurate, nuanced grasp on a specific set of facts about any given historical period. I find most of the history materials aimed at children unacceptably whiggish, triumphalist, or reactionary. So we are lingering with the fundamental needs for a bit while I try to figure out how I'm going to handle what comes next. 

Edited August 21, 2020 by LostCove

[Little Green Leaves]

21 minutes ago, LostCove said:

A lot of card materials will make a distinction between, say, the clothing of a poor person and a rich person in a given era - it's simple, but I think it works for a 6-9 year old. Some fundamental needs charts also include a category related to social structure. Also, I think that, ideally, Montessori card materials work differently from fill-in-the-blank type worksheets, but that would be getting really into the weeds on Montessori, and, at any rate, I don't use card materials myself.

We use the framework of fundamental needs to create our own materials (I couldn't find one chart that had all the categories I wanted anyway), and I vet the resources we use for that. We can make the study as complex as we want, and it is easy to vary the complexity for each of my children depending on their age and previous exposure to our topic. 

Additionally, a major piece of elementary studies is the idea of "going out" to take advantages of other resources in the local community. So, to take your example, we don't learn about Native American cultures just through books or or set of card materials, we go and see the pre-Columbian archaeological sites in our area - this naturally leads to the discovery that Native American culture is neither static nor monolithic. It also helps us appreciate the difference between archaeology and history.

There are two different ways to think about history: is it the study of the past or is it the study of change over time? Developmentally, I think you have to establish the first before you can move on to the second, and it is a very big concept for young children to wrap their mind around. My youngest student still basically thinks of time as now and "when grandpa was little" and is just starting to get a handle on the idea that there was a time before grandpa was alive. So I would distinguish the fundamental needs work from social history, which has embedded in it certain ideas about the causes of historical change. 

And to be honest, I'm more concerned about my children coming away from studying history with an over-simplified view of historical change than I am worried that they won't have the most accurate, nuanced grasp on a specific set of facts about any given historical period. I find most of the history materials aimed at children unacceptably whiggish, triumphalist, or reactionary. So we are lingering with the fundamental needs for a bit while I try to figure out how I'm going to handle what comes next. 

Okay. I think I misunderstood your post before, or I kind of conflated things that shouldn't have been conflated.

So the fundamental needs work comes first, and sets the ground for later study of history by helping kids understand that there IS such a thing as the past, and that people lived in very different ways but that those ways can still be understood? Is that right?

That makes a lot of sense. It also reminds me of the way that my kids love to pore over books showing kids in historical times, or even those UNESCO books that show modern kids around the world. 

I really like your emphasis on going out into the community. This is something I miss now. It's not just that COVID has kept us away from museums, it's also that it's kept us from having the kinds of casual conversations with neighbors that we used to have. My daughter still talks about a conversation we had with a woman in the park one day -- apparently that whole park was just abandoned land when she was a child. Lucky you to be near pre-Columbian archeological sites -- that sounds like a wonderful experience.

[LostintheCosmos]

2 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

So the fundamental needs work comes first, and sets the ground for later study of history by helping kids understand that there IS such a thing as the past, and that people lived in very different ways but that those ways can still be understood? Is that right?

Yup!

The archaeological sites are cool, I am not going to lie. But our museums suck, if it makes you feel any better, lol.

[Hunter]

I have done a 180 in literature vs history. I used to prioritize "truth" and that meant history, and I used to schedule very little fiction. Before Covid, I had gradually lost all trust in searching for "truth" in general and in history especially. After a couple months of Covid, LOL. People are unable to report the "truth" or even see it.

It is all stories. Stories have power. Literature labeled as fiction often has more power than literature labeled as history.

If a family has stories, they should teach them as their history. No matter how far-fetched that outsiders have labeled the stories. Those stories are what formed their family. That makes it their truth. They don't need to adopt the mythology of other families, or the majority. They don't need to investigate and prove their own stories. They can just continue on as they have.

I do not believe in teaching all of K-12 as watered down College 101 classes. I do not believe in teaching k-12 history as a watered down college history class. I believe in immersing children in powerful stories. I believe in just simply reading your stories to children and then teaching them to read those stories themselves, and then to their own children.

Muck "truth". Whose "truth" is it, and who benefits by you abandoning your own myths and adopting theirs?

I respect the right of others to do differently as long as they grant me and others the same right.

 

[Little Green Leaves]

16 minutes ago, Hunter said:

I have done a 180 in literature vs history. I used to prioritize "truth" and that meant history, and I used to schedule very little fiction. Before Covid, I had gradually lost all trust in searching for "truth" in general and in history especially. After a couple months of Covid, LOL. People are unable to report the "truth" or even see it.

It is all stories. Stories have power. Literature labeled as fiction often has more power than literature labeled as history.

If a family has stories, they should teach them as their history. No matter how far-fetched that outsiders have labeled the stories. Those stories are what formed their family. That makes it their truth. They don't need to adopt the mythology of other families, or the majority. They don't need to investigate and prove their own stories. They can just continue on as they have.

I do not believe in teaching all of K-12 as watered down College 101 classes. I do not believe in teaching k-12 history as a watered down college history class. I believe in immersing children in powerful stories. I believe in just simply reading your stories to children and then teaching them to read those stories themselves, and then to their own children.

Muck "truth". Whose "truth" is it, and who benefits by you abandoning your own myths and adopting theirs?

I respect the right of others to do differently as long as they grant me and others the same right.

 

We're all going to do it differently, right? We're all going to measure what works for our kids, what makes them thrive. Sometimes that'll look like immersion in stories, and sometimes that'll look like watered-down college.

I love the fact that "truing" can be a verb. Carpenters "true" boards of wood. People can "true" wheels and other items.