My bright, wonderful, 10-year-old child absolutely hates reading. Any ideas?

[Joyful Journeys]

Hello all,

I've not been on this forum in a few years, but it's always been so helpful. I home schooled DD for K/1. After some initial phonics instruction, she seemed to just take off on her own. She went to PS for 2/3. It was, awful. While she made progress with reading per all their assessments, she hated school. She has since been diagnosed with ASD. We suspect ADHD as well, and we are considering meds for that this year, now that we think we've found something to help with her intense social anxiety which we wanted to address first. Now to reading..

At the end of last year (3rd), a state assessment she took at her school showed that she could read at 7th+ grade level. Yet, her comprehension was bright red at "needs significant support," hanging in at barely 3rd. Her teacher didn't seem concerned about this when I brought it up. I kept her home for 4th, and wouldn't you know, she remembers nothing that she reads. At all. Not characters, settings, nothing, after just 15 minutes or so of reading, she can barely tell me anything. She says that as she turns pages, she just forgets. I think books with lots of inner dialogue are difficult for her too, as she's just not interested in what people are thinking. The only time she retains anything is if it's a comic style graphic novel. She never chooses to read on her own, it's always forced, and often tear filled. As we start 5th, I'm feeling intense worry to get her past this but I don't know how. I don't want to create an even worse relationship with reading. 

Should we back up and do some remedial phonics? Perhaps there are holes? She may revolt at the idea, but I'm willing to do whatever is needed.  Perhaps we need graphic organizers? Are there programs that help work through chapter books with struggling readers? BTW, her little brother, will be repeating 1st at home after solely being in PS (and EC), is also on the spectrum with SLD math, and SLD reading. I'll be doing AAR/Rightstart with him. I looked at EIW for writing for her as a video teaching model would free up some time for me, but I'm just at a loss for reading and I worry there aren't enough hours in the day to go around. If you stuck with this whole post, thank you. I'm not opposed to further evaluations, but I think we have just lost so much time as it is, I want to dive with something..anything..to see if it helps.

 

edit: Mercy I've gotta update my signature, they are not babies anymore lol.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Joyful Journeys

[forty-two]

1 hour ago, Joyful Journeys said:

She has since been diagnosed with ASD.
...
At the end of last year (3rd), a state assessment she took at her school showed that she could read at 7th+ grade level. Yet, her comprehension was bright red at "needs significant support," hanging in at barely 3rd.
...
I think books with lots of inner dialogue are difficult for her too, as she's just not interested in what people are thinking. The only time she retains anything is if it's a comic style graphic novel.

While it might be worthwhile to use something like ElizabethB's nonsense word list or her syllable-based lessons, to check for phonics issues, to me what you've written suggests more ASD-related comprehension issues.  People say that reading comprehension is something like 90% background knowledge - and as I understand it, having ASD makes it a lot harder to pick up understanding-people-related background knowledge. 

Does she have more interest in books if you read them aloud to her?  Does she comprehend better when you read them aloud? 

Might want to poke @PeterPan - this sounds like something in her wheelhouse.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by forty-two

[Joyful Journeys]

17 minutes ago, forty-two said:

While it might be worthwhile to use something like ElizabethB's nonsense word list to check for phonics issues, to me what you've written suggests more ASD-related comprehension issues.  People say that reading comprehension is something like 90% background knowledge - and as I understand it, having ASD makes it a lot harder to pick up understanding-people-related background knowledge. 

Does she have more interest in books if you read them aloud to her?  Does she comprehend better when you read them aloud? 

Might want to poke @PeterPan - this sounds like something in her wheelhouse.

 

 

 

I appreciate that insight, thank you!  Yes she does have more interest when I read. We did a few books from Bravewriter (Arrows) for 4th at home this past school year and we had a great time together. She seem actually interested in the stories for the first time in a while, particularly The Wild Robot was a big hit. I noticed, she did have more trouble with books with lots of internal dialogue. . I felt at the time, giving her a break and just letting her enjoy literature again was good change for a bit, and she could answer anything I asked her quite well. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Joyful Journeys

[forty-two]

8 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

 

I appreciate that insight, thank you!  Yes she does have more interest when I read. We did a few books from Bravewriter (Arrows) for 4th at home this past school year and we had a great time together. She seem actually interested in the stories for the first time in a while, particularly The Wild Robot was a big hit. I noticed, she did have more trouble with books with lots of internal dialogue. . I felt at the time, giving her a break and just letting her enjoy literature again was good change for a bit, and she could answer anything I asked her quite well. 

That's great that she's more interested when you read.  Could be a phonics/decoding thing, could be that you are taking some of the (non-decoding-related) comprehension load off by reading it to her, could be that everything's better with Mom :).  How's her oral reading - can she read aloud well?  Does she remember/enjoy better when she reads aloud than reading silently?

In any case, that she enjoys being read to - that's huge for helping her to like reading and books, gives her pleasant book experiences.

[Joyful Journeys]

5 minutes ago, forty-two said:

That's great that she's more interested when you read.  Could be a phonics/decoding thing, could be that you are taking some of the (non-decoding-related) comprehension load off by reading it to her, could be that everything's better with Mom :).  How's her oral reading - can she read aloud well?  Does she remember/enjoy better when she reads aloud than reading silently?

In any case, that she enjoys being read to - that's huge for helping her to like reading and books, gives her pleasant book experiences.

 

Yes, it's not in her top list of things to do, listen to mom read, but she tolerates it lol. She does read aloud pretty well, she reads quickly, however I don't think that helps her much with understanding. She prefers to read to herself, but she does tell me she gets distracted easily so maybe that's a big part of it.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Joyful Journeys

[forty-two]

9 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

 

Yes, it's not in her top list of things to do, listen to mom read, but she tolerates it lol. She does read aloud pretty well, she reads quickly, however I don't think that helps her much with understanding. She prefers to read to herself, but she does tell me she gets distracted easily so maybe that's a big part of it.

I admit, for me personally, even though I'm pretty good at reading aloud (I read Scripture during church services and such), it takes *more* concentration for me to comprehend well while reading aloud than it does to comprehend reading silently. 

How's her comprehension of movies/tv shows?  You said the only thing she retains reading-wise is graphic novels - is her comprehension there genuinely *good* or just relatively good in comparison to her other lack-of-comprehension?

[Joyful Journeys]

6 minutes ago, forty-two said:

I admit, for me personally, even though I'm pretty good at reading aloud (I read Scripture during church services and such), it takes *more* concentration for me to comprehend well while reading aloud than it does to comprehend reading silently. 

How's her comprehension of movies/tv shows?  You said the only thing she retains reading-wise is graphic novels - is her comprehension there genuinely *good* or just relatively good in comparison to her other lack-of-comprehension?

 

Now that's a good question, I'm not really sure. I guess I mean, the only way she's able to tell me anything about the story (events, characters etc) is if it's in graphic novel form. If it is purely words on a page, she is lost. She tells me she sometimes has a hard time tracking tv shows with live action, so she doesn't choose those ever. She does better with animation because she focuses on the graphics. 

[forty-two]

10 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

 

Now that's a good question, I'm not really sure. I guess I mean, the only way she's able to tell me anything about the story (events, characters etc) is if it's in graphic novel form. If it is purely words on a page, she is lost. She tells me she sometimes has a hard time tracking tv shows with live action, so she doesn't choose those ever. She does better with animation because she focuses on the graphics. 

That's interesting, that visuals in general don't improve her comprehension, but only a specific type/style of visuals (animation/comics) helps.  Wonder if she finds them easier to *understand* or easier to *pay attention* to, or if it's a mutually-reinforcing cycle: she can understand it better because she can pay attention better because she can understand it better....

It's just a WAG, but specifically understanding animated shows while having trouble with live action shows - I wonder if that's ASD-related.

[Joyful Journeys]

5 minutes ago, forty-two said:

That's interesting, that visuals in general don't improve her comprehension, but only a specific type/style of visuals (animation/comics) helps.  Wonder if she finds them easier to *understand* or easier to *pay attention* to, or if it's a mutually-reinforcing cycle: she can understand it better because she can pay attention better because she can understand it better....

It's just a WAG, but specifically understanding animated shows while having trouble with live action shows - I wonder if that's ASD-related.

 

That's exactly where I'm at. Perhaps this will be solved with adhd meds. We just got a prescription and now I'm trying to hunt it down, since our local pharmacy can't seem to get it in stock. I think it is ASD related, too. She is seriously anti-people other than immediate family. She'll sit with us through some Disney live action type things, since she's familiar with the story already. But 9/10 she always chooses to watch animation, though she typically doesn't choose tv shows at all, but rather video games like Minecraft. Animation is her comfort zone, I told her she's a shoe-in for a graphic design job. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Joyful Journeys

[Joyful Journeys]

I also just ordered this book I found linked here in a post from a while ago. Has anyone used it I wonder? 

 

Word Callers: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0325026939/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I noticed, she did have more trouble with books with lots of internal dialogue. 

For reference, my son with ASD has significant issues with expressive language, and he presented like this at times, though he covered well until he was in junior high. He's had good intervention that is helping a great deal. If we'd had more clues when he was your daughter's age (we had some, but nothing super helpful), it would've been so helpful.  

Everything you are describing is very typical of autism-related reading comprehension problems. If you can find a great SLP who deals with literacy, I highly recommend testing, including the Test of Narrative Language, for both of your kids. Does your son have signs of dyslexia, or are his issues more comprehension-related too?

You need to know if the troubles with comprehension are social language (called pragmatic language), broader issues like expression and receptive language, decoding, critical thinking, word/sentence/paragraph/big picture breakdowns in language comprehension, etc. You want to find an SLP that will dig in a bit and had some autism-specific tools to recommend. 

Once you have some data in hand, I strongly recommend Mindwing Concept's products for narrative language--they will help with comprehension, social skills, critical thinking, and eventually expository writing. They are amazing. You might also look into what kinds of language is taught in various ABA programs--we have people who post on here that have had great success with the VB-MAPP and some other programs. That might be helpful before starting something like the Mindwing products depending on your situation.

1 hour ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I also just ordered this book I found linked here in a post from a while ago. Has anyone used it I wonder? 

Word Callers: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0325026939/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

I think Peter Pan has. 

Regarding the ADHD meds--we've had excellent results with meds, but they don't fix the language issues. 😉 They do make life MUCH easier though!!!

[Joyful Journeys]

17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

For reference, my son with ASD has significant issues with expressive language, and he presented like this at times, though he covered well until he was in junior high. He's had good intervention that is helping a great deal. If we'd had more clues when he was your daughter's age (we had some, but nothing super helpful), it would've been so helpful.  

Everything you are describing is very typical of autism-related reading comprehension problems. If you can find a great SLP who deals with literacy, I highly recommend testing, including the Test of Narrative Language, for both of your kids. Does your son have signs of dyslexia, or are his issues more comprehension-related too?

You need to know if the troubles with comprehension are social language (called pragmatic language), broader issues like expression and receptive language, decoding, critical thinking, word/sentence/paragraph/big picture breakdowns in language comprehension, etc. You want to find an SLP that will dig in a bit and had some autism-specific tools to recommend. 

Once you have some data in hand, I strongly recommend Mindwing Concept's products for narrative language--they will help with comprehension, social skills, critical thinking, and eventually expository writing. They are amazing. You might also look into what kinds of language is taught in various ABA programs--we have people who post on here that have had great success with the VB-MAPP and some other programs. That might be helpful before starting something like the Mindwing products depending on your situation.

I think Peter Pan has. 

Regarding the ADHD meds--we've had excellent results with meds, but they don't fix the language issues. 😉 They do make life MUCH easier though!!!

 

 It is comforting that this is typical. She was just diagnosed in January, and she completely flies under the radar, presenting completely differently than her younger brother who got a DX easily at 3.  As it stands now, DS seems to have a decent grasp with phonemic awareness. He continues to make very painfully slow progress with the intervention program his school uses (Reading Mastery I think), such that he's reading at a mid kindergarten level as a rising second graders. He's been getting pulled out since Prek.  Sight words, just aren't sticking at all, but he remembers rules fairly well (hence sounding out sight words). I do have Barton 1 that I used here with my oldest (apparently reading issues are our thing, I'm absolutely begging DS (5) to be a little easier haha), that I may try before AAR. I feel like the tactile piece will help, and he is only 7 so he's got some time. He has slight problems with comprehension when he reads himself, since it's just such hard work to read period I think. After a couple times through a reader, he can answer questions, though so far pictures have been involved so he may be leaning on that too. Dyscalculia seems to be in the mix too, as he relies heavily on counting after only just really firming up one to one correspondence mid K. He doesn't know what to do at all past 10 with no manipulatives.

My daughter had testing done at the end of 2nd..I should pull that out and remind myself what it was showing then, but maybe since it's been so long it's irrelevant. I know there were issues with understanding spoken paragraphs. She missed an educational ASD dx by just a couple of points, but I think since she was on grade level, they really had no intention of giving her any extra help regardless. I moved her to an "experiential" school that offered more flexibility but the lack of structure kind of backfired and she shut down even more socially. I appreciate very much the advice to seek out an SLP. I've taken her in the past and, outside of a short window when she was 4 or so, she always tested average on their diagnostics so I wasn't sure that was the right professional to pursue. 

I definitely understand that language can't be fixed with adhd meds, I just wasn't sure if language was in fact the issue or just that she can't focus long enough to retain anything. She's so easygoing, and since we can modify things at home, I've been hesitant to really try. I'm kinda stressing now, that this may be yet another thing really holding her back academically. 

I will look into Mindwing! Thank you so much for your input!

 

[kbutton]

5 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

It is comforting that this is typical. She was just diagnosed in January, and she completely flies under the radar, presenting completely differently than her younger brother who got a DX easily at 3. 

My daughter had testing done at the end of 2nd..I should pull that out and remind myself what it was showing then, but maybe since it's been so long it's irrelevant. I know there were issues with understanding spoken paragraphs. She missed an educational ASD dx by just a couple of points, but I think since she was on grade level, they really had no intention of giving her any extra help regardless. I moved her to an "experiential" school that offered more flexibility but the lack of structure kind of backfired and she shut down even more socially. I appreciate very much the advice to seek out an SLP. I've taken her in the past and, outside of a short window when she was 4 or so, she always tested average on their diagnostics so I wasn't sure that was the right professional to pursue. 

I definitely understand that language can't be fixed with adhd meds, I just wasn't sure if language was in fact the issue or just that she can't focus long enough to retain anything. She's so easygoing, and since we can modify things at home, I've been hesitant to really try. I'm kinda stressing now, that this may be yet another thing really holding her back academically. 

I will look into Mindwing! Thank you so much for your input!

I pulled your post apart a bit to reply. 

I think being under the radar is not unusual for girls, and the more you talk about her, the more she sounds like my son, who is 16 and thriving (although he's not super interested in academics). He's likely to go into the building trades and do very well for himself. 

My son was in school K-2--a smallish private school with a lot of structure, but not so much flexibility. Then we brought him home, and he was diagnosed at the end of his 3rd grade year, I think. He was just about to turn 9. He always tested very, very well on things, and he is gifted as well as having ASD/ADHD. It's frustrating to find the right professional and set of tests sometimes, but because she has a diagnosis, you should feel very free to use the label to seek additional help and services.

I think looking at your earlier testing is a great place to start! If you read up on the Mindwing site and maybe the Social Thinking sites, you might notice things in the testing that make more sense now that you have the ASD diagnosis. 

An SLP is a good place to go, but you should shop around or at least arrive prepared with an idea of what tests you want run. @PeterPan knows more about the tests for that age than I do, other than that I recommend the TNL. You want an SLP that has the right tests, or you might get more of the "tests average" run around!!! We couldn't find an SLP with the tests, so our psychologist looked up whether she could administer the TNL, and she could, so she did. It opened doors and was eye-opening for her to see the results as well, even though she can't offer remediation for it. Oh, the Test of Problem-Solving might also be useful, though she might do fine on the lower levels with picture support. I think the upper levels for older kids don't have that support.

If she is unfocused, ADHD meds really can help with that. We wished we had tried earlier than we did.

If you like the look of the Mindwing Concepts products, I think you will find things you can use at home even if you can't find an SLP that uses those products--they have blogs and webinars, and if you call them directly, they will help talk you through what you might need. They have an ASD-specific line that basically adds some additional support to the main program, breaking it down more granularly and adding in additional supports. My son was past the general age for those products, but we ended up ordering one of the books later on, and there were just one or two tiny concepts hanging him up that the book provided support for that wasn't in the "main" product line. 

In the meantime, PeterPan can speak to testing and also to how to know if her comprehension is fine at the word and sentence level in case you need to do something before picking up Mindwing products.

Quote

As it stands now, DS seems to have a decent grasp with phonemic awareness. He continues to make very painfully slow progress with the intervention program his school uses (Reading Mastery I think), such that he's reading at a mid kindergarten level as a rising second graders. He's been getting pulled out since Prek.  Sight words, just aren't sticking at all, but he remembers rules fairly well (hence sounding out sight words). I do have Barton 1 that I used here with my oldest (apparently reading issues are our thing, I'm absolutely begging DS (5) to be a little easier haha), that I may try before AAR. I feel like the tactile piece will help, and he is only 7 so he's got some time. He has slight problems with comprehension when he reads himself, since it's just such hard work to read period I think. After a couple times through a reader, he can answer questions, though so far pictures have been involved so he may be leaning on that too. Dyscalculia seems to be in the mix too, as he relies heavily on counting after only just really firming up one to one correspondence mid K. He doesn't know what to do at all past 10 with no manipulatives.

Oh, you should talk to @Lecka about your DS if she has time to chime in! I think she'd have some helpful and encouraging words for you even though you were asking about your DD. She's very knowledgeable.

[PeterPan]

I’ll come back in a jiff. This needs a keyboard. 🤣😂🤣😂

[Joyful Journeys]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

I pulled your post apart a bit to reply. 

I think being under the radar is not unusual for girls, and the more you talk about her, the more she sounds like my son, who is 16 and thriving (although he's not super interested in academics). He's likely to go into the building trades and do very well for himself. 

My son was in school K-2--a smallish private school with a lot of structure, but not so much flexibility. Then we brought him home, and he was diagnosed at the end of his 3rd grade year, I think. He was just about to turn 9. He always tested very, very well on things, and he is gifted as well as having ASD/ADHD. It's frustrating to find the right professional and set of tests sometimes, but because she has a diagnosis, you should feel very free to use the label to seek additional help and services.

I think looking at your earlier testing is a great place to start! If you read up on the Mindwing site and maybe the Social Thinking sites, you might notice things in the testing that make more sense now that you have the ASD diagnosis. 

An SLP is a good place to go, but you should shop around or at least arrive prepared with an idea of what tests you want run. @PeterPan knows more about the tests for that age than I do, other than that I recommend the TNL. You want an SLP that has the right tests, or you might get more of the "tests average" run around!!! We couldn't find an SLP with the tests, so our psychologist looked up whether she could administer the TNL, and she could, so she did. It opened doors and was eye-opening for her to see the results as well, even though she can't offer remediation for it. Oh, the Test of Problem-Solving might also be useful, though she might do fine on the lower levels with picture support. I think the upper levels for older kids don't have that support.

If she is unfocused, ADHD meds really can help with that. We wished we had tried earlier than we did.

If you like the look of the Mindwing Concepts products, I think you will find things you can use at home even if you can't find an SLP that uses those products--they have blogs and webinars, and if you call them directly, they will help talk you through what you might need. They have an ASD-specific line that basically adds some additional support to the main program, breaking it down more granularly and adding in additional supports. My son was past the general age for those products, but we ended up ordering one of the books later on, and there were just one or two tiny concepts hanging him up that the book provided support for that wasn't in the "main" product line. 

In the meantime, PeterPan can speak to testing and also to how to know if her comprehension is fine at the word and sentence level in case you need to do something before picking up Mindwing products.

Oh, you should talk to @Lecka about your DS if she has time to chime in! I think she'd have some helpful and encouraging words for you even though you were asking about your DD. She's very knowledgeable.

 

16 and thriving is wonderful! Thanks for tagging other folks, DS may need his own thread actually. 😄 The Mindwing site has my head spinning a little, I think I need to dig a little more to see this in practice. You're meaning the Story Grammar Marker right?  I'm not sure how she'll react to the manipulative at 10. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Joyful Journeys

[Joyful Journeys]

10 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I’ll come back in a jiff. This needs a keyboard. 🤣😂🤣😂

 

Oh mercy! 🤣 Whenever you have time, I appreciate your thoughts!  

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, Joyful Journeys said:

16 and thriving is wonderful! Thanks for tagging other folks, DS may need his own thread actually. 😄 The Mindwing site has my head spinning a little, I think I need to dig a little more to see this in practice. I'm not sure how she'll react to the manipulative at 10. 

Mine used it at 14--it's less doll-like for older kids. He was told it would help, so he did it. Mostly we used it on paper or with magnets/stamps. You could go that route. They make their icon sets in MANY forms!

[Joyful Journeys]

3 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Mine used it at 14--it's less doll-like for older kids. He was told it would help, so he did it. Mostly we used it on paper or with magnets/stamps. You could go that route. They make their icon sets in MANY forms!

 

Oh I see the stamps now, awesome!

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

 

I appreciate that insight, thank you!  Yes she does have more interest when I read. We did a few books from Bravewriter (Arrows) for 4th at home this past school year and we had a great time together. She seem actually interested in the stories for the first time in a while, particularly The Wild Robot was a big hit. I noticed, she did have more trouble with books with lots of internal dialogue. . I felt at the time, giving her a break and just letting her enjoy literature again was good change for a bit, and she could answer anything I asked her quite well. 

So you're working on expanding your mind to think about all the components of comprehension, which is good. Others have mentioned narrative language and getting that tested. If there's a *financial* benefit to her getting ASD as her disabling condition for her IEP (ie. qualifying for a scholarship tier through your state), then I can tell you that narrative language testing would likely get her there. Also the CELF Metalinguistics. The ps gets around this by just not doing the testing nor telling you what would need to happen. But when you talk with disability lawyers, they know.  In our state it's big money on the line, so having test scores to show the effect on language is important.

Another that hasn't been mentioned (as far as I've read in your thread, I'll keep reading) is syntax. Unfortunately, it can be another elephant in the room, and with super bright kids it's the WORST thing to get anyone to acknowledge and the hardest to find an SLP actually to treat. I had one recently try to treat my ds by having him MEMORIZE DEFINITIONS. I kid you not. And for this she paid for a masters??? We fired her. Poof, gone. It was absurd. And it wasn't like definitions as in vocabulary (attributes, categories, functions, etc.). No she was literally having him memorize the definition of language terms, like some kind of stupid parlor trick. BRIGHT KIDS CAN MEMORIZE. So my ds' echolalia/scripting is actually really high right now. My dd was just commenting on it, not sure what she was hearing. And it's just weird because you don't think of it right away. But super bright kid with deficits whose brain and interests grow ahead of their language WILL SCRIPT. 

So the trick then, if you want to see where she's at for syntax, is a more detailed language test than the CELF. You want the SPELT. I uber love the SPELT. No multiple choice, no models, just the kid and their language holes showing like swiss cheese. And then look at the lit she's comprehending and engaging with for read alouds (not memorizing, not tolerating, but actually able to talk with you about) and look at the *lexile* level. Lexile is controlled for multiple things, including syntax. You can use a lexile finder to find more books at her level. Try nonfiction. Dropping the lexile will improve comprehension and ability to narrate. Then read aloud to her widely.

The other thing you can do is look at her stage of narrative language, when you get the materials from Mindwings for their Autism Kit (which is what you want) and look at the language structures necessary for each stage. So start at the bottom stage and go ok, does she actually have that language, does she need to work on those structures? Some SLPs will use something like EET to hit this "vocabulary" stage. Just as a non-professional, hack suggestion, I'm going to suggest that if her support level is *1* that it's *probable* she'll do ok with EET. If her support level is 2 or 3, then move to more detailed tools. My ds' support level is 2, and his language issues are complicated to tease out because of his strong ability to script. He just has massive amounts of memorized language. Doesn't mean he uses it originally so well. So on something like the SPELT, he totally fails. Actually, when we ran it on him at 9/10 (I forget now), he actually failed even the PRESCHOOL version. Seriously. Then they reran it with the regular SPELT. But I kid you not, he failed the preschool version. And the school fought and fought us on language. Sigh. It's just so hard to demonstrate especially with the CELF, which has known issues with sensitivity. There's sensitivity and specificity (actually I'm forgetting the names) and it under identifies language disabilities in kids with higher IQs because they can imitate the models and guess through the multiple choice. It's a known issue. Sigh.

You're right on with your internal dialogue, the social thinking. I'm also noticing you saying visual a lot and graphic novels. I would take that a couple ways. One, she's literally not comprehending the language, hence wanting the more detailed language testing. Two, some kids don't VISUALIZE well. You're about to drop down a rabbit hole, sorry. It's such an important topic and it really can result in needing more evals, more interventions. It will be WORTH it if her visualization is a problem. It *is* a problem for a segment of kids but *not* for my ds. My ds' scores are very similar to yours and he has beautiful visualization. You can look at Verbalizing/Visualizing, run him through some activities where you read a text with her eyes closed and ask her to describe what she sees. It will be obvious. And if it's an issue, option one the curriculum, option two test for developmental vision problems. Hugely important. My dd with great reading had all kinds of developmental vision problems and my ds with ASD2 and all these diagnoses has none, go figure. But it's something to check, absolutely.

23 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

 

Oh I see the stamps now, awesome!

Did you notice the mini magnets? They should include both expository and narrative. And they have pdf files now so you can download and make ANYTHING you dream up. I keep planning to buy them to make graphic organizer pages the way I want. I mean the MW pages are GREAT but it's so sky is the limit, kwim? Buy a dab at a time, edge in, see what you need. It's a concept. I HIGHLY recommend their videos on youtube, just the free stuff. Also, they are about to do a webinar tomorrow that will KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF if you can get in. Sign up, do it. So worth your time. Consider the time you spend on their videos the TRAINING to implement the materials, kwim? They just did another workshop two weeks ago that they have finally linked. EXCEPTIONAL video. Seriously.  https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/webinars  It's the "play, pause, next" workshop. 

More in next.

Edited July 6, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

https://www.amazon.com/Word-Callers-One-One-Research-Informed/dp/0325026939/ref=sr_1_1?crid=15ZHIZ8DEQJPM&dchild=1&keywords=word+callers+by+kelly+cartwright&qid=1594077869&sprefix=word+callers%2Caps%2C165&sr=8-1  Did someone already mention this or did you already find it? Just go ahead and buy it.

https://www.aapcpublishing.com/products/drawing-a-blank?_pos=1&_sid=2ef684e6c&_ss=r&variant=23029038153776  This book hits a lot of the basic stuff. I think she missed some important pieces and can't remember what they were. I read it after I had already done a lot of research, so a lot was like yeah no joke and the rest was missing. But, you know, it's a place to start. AAPC is *wonderful* and you want to spend a lot of time there. You'll find so many gems and get so many ideas. Seriously high quality, leading edge stuff with a slant toward the higher IQ kids who benefit from some serious cognitive based approaches.

 

[PeterPan]

31 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Mine used it at 14--it's less doll-like for older kids. He was told it would help, so he did it. Mostly we used it on paper or with magnets/stamps. You could go that route. They make their icon sets in MANY forms!

Yeah, I've never handed the manip to my ds. Actually I never bought it. I meant to make Braidy to save money, then he outgrew it maturity wise. I just am not really keen on the rope thing. It's ok. But you know, just being honest, my ds is really stuck needing to get the LANGUAGE to be able to move forward with his stage of narrative. And I think it's something sort of pissy that distinguishes me from SLPs, especially in the ps, because sometimes they're like oh well the IEP says teach narrative so we're gonna teach the steps of narrative! And you'll look at something like (insert name of another intervention program for narrative I own) and they just throw everything at the wall like spaghetti and see what sticks. And there's some logic to that, a time for that. And there's a time or a kid with whom you should NOT do that. And I think it's just YOUR PROFESSIONAL OPINION AS THE PERSON DOING THE INTERVENTION, which you want to do. 

So here's my two cents on that. You look at the dc's interoception https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  and their emotional awareness (because it's the lynch pin for one of the stages) and their language (ability to use verbs, adjectives, conjunctions, etc.) and you say ok I think they have the language to go forward and if I teach these pieces everything is there for it to come together. Or you say no, hello, my kid can't use emotion words so we're going to pause and work on that in order to go forward, kwim? And that's a STRENGTH of MW/SGM that takes a while for people to realize. We're not throwing spaghetti at the wall. We're literally walking them through the steps of narrative language development, and with each stage we're making sure they have the language pieces to do it completely and nicely. We want to see it GENERALIZE to life and see it really happening.

More later. I'm being paged by an 11 yo, haha.

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I also just ordered this book I found linked here in a post from a while ago. Has anyone used it I wonder? 

 

Word Callers: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0325026939/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

So the main part of the book works them through what I call multi- processing. This is just my two cents, but I would make sure her vocabulary work (feature function class, attributes, etc.) is solid so she's not frustrated. So that would not have been the starting point for *my* ds but it could be for your dd, kwim? My ds needed that really basic work, even at 9/10, and people just didn't realize it. You probably know how to check this informally from working with your ds. So once she can do that, they learn to multi-sort, which is sorting the same data multiple ways. It works on cognitive flexibility. Great stuff. It went really fast for my ds, but it was such a simple, vital piece, kwim? It might blow your mind how it could help. And then it has chapters on a lot of your OTHER things that affect comprehension. Just great stuff, things you'll find easy to make happen. Definitely worth the low price, and you need it new to get the included cards.

 

[PeterPan]

A couple random pieces. One, I used GPP=Grammar Processing Program from Super Duper Inc to good effect with my ds. You can tell from the samples whether it's a good starting point for your dc or unnecessary. I can recommend other things in that vein like the free pdf (oop) if link still works http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf2/100_vocabulary_primary.pdf  HIGHLY recommend. If she can't do this, it's SO worth your time. I expanded every unit out with more materials. Had him read aloud EVERYTHING on the page and do to complete comprehension.

I'm also really keen on the SPARC series from linguisystems/pro ed inc. Don't underestimate the difficulty of them. They start with simple usage at a word, then build the skill to phrases, sentences, and full narratives. STELLAR, kicks butt, amazing. And if you don't want to plunk out, then just use the thought process with anything you've got, kwim? The magic is always you, not the money you paid. Do something simple in an amazing way by working on it at the word level, building to phrases and sentences, then applying to narratives, merging it into your MW/SGM. You'll get the results you want. You'll be better than 99% of the SLPs you'll meet at that point. (Maybe that's not charitable, but there you go.)

Edited July 6, 2020 by PeterPan

[EKS]

I haven't read the replies.

I'd take her for a developmental vision exam.  At the same time, I'd run through REWARDS with her and then do fluency readings for the next year or two.  

Fluency reading is where you have her read aloud for 20-30 minutes every day from text that is easy for her to read.  Then gradually increase the difficulty level until she is at or above grade level.

[Joyful Journeys]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So you're working on expanding your mind to think about all the components of comprehension, which is good. Others have mentioned narrative language and getting that tested. If there's a *financial* benefit to her getting ASD as her disabling condition for her IEP (ie. qualifying for a scholarship tier through your state), then I can tell you that narrative language testing would likely get her there. Also the CELF Metalinguistics. The ps gets around this by just not doing the testing nor telling you what would need to happen. But when you talk with disability lawyers, they know.  In our state it's big money on the line, so having test scores to show the effect on language is important.

Another that hasn't been mentioned (as far as I've read in your thread, I'll keep reading) is syntax. Unfortunately, it can be another elephant in the room, and with super bright kids it's the WORST thing to get anyone to acknowledge and the hardest to find an SLP actually to treat. I had one recently try to treat my ds by having him MEMORIZE DEFINITIONS. I kid you not. And for this she paid for a masters??? We fired her. Poof, gone. It was absurd. And it wasn't like definitions as in vocabulary (attributes, categories, functions, etc.). No she was literally having him memorize the definition of language terms, like some kind of stupid parlor trick. BRIGHT KIDS CAN MEMORIZE. So my ds' echolalia/scripting is actually really high right now. My dd was just commenting on it, not sure what she was hearing. And it's just weird because you don't think of it right away. But super bright kid with deficits whose brain and interests grow ahead of their language WILL SCRIPT. 

So the trick then, if you want to see where she's at for syntax, is a more detailed language test than the CELF. You want the SPELT. I uber love the SPELT. No multiple choice, no models, just the kid and their language holes showing like swiss cheese. And then look at the lit she's comprehending and engaging with for read alouds (not memorizing, not tolerating, but actually able to talk with you about) and look at the *lexile* level. Lexile is controlled for multiple things, including syntax. You can use a lexile finder to find more books at her level. Try nonfiction. Dropping the lexile will improve comprehension and ability to narrate. Then read aloud to her widely.

The other thing you can do is look at her stage of narrative language, when you get the materials from Mindwings for their Autism Kit (which is what you want) and look at the language structures necessary for each stage. So start at the bottom stage and go ok, does she actually have that language, does she need to work on those structures? Some SLPs will use something like EET to hit this "vocabulary" stage. Just as a non-professional, hack suggestion, I'm going to suggest that if her support level is *1* that it's *probable* she'll do ok with EET. If her support level is 2 or 3, then move to more detailed tools. My ds' support level is 2, and his language issues are complicated to tease out because of his strong ability to script. He just has massive amounts of memorized language. Doesn't mean he uses it originally so well. So on something like the SPELT, he totally fails. Actually, when we ran it on him at 9/10 (I forget now), he actually failed even the PRESCHOOL version. Seriously. Then they reran it with the regular SPELT. But I kid you not, he failed the preschool version. And the school fought and fought us on language. Sigh. It's just so hard to demonstrate especially with the CELF, which has known issues with sensitivity. There's sensitivity and specificity (actually I'm forgetting the names) and it under identifies language disabilities in kids with higher IQs because they can imitate the models and guess through the multiple choice. It's a known issue. Sigh.

You're right on with your internal dialogue, the social thinking. I'm also noticing you saying visual a lot and graphic novels. I would take that a couple ways. One, she's literally not comprehending the language, hence wanting the more detailed language testing. Two, some kids don't VISUALIZE well. You're about to drop down a rabbit hole, sorry. It's such an important topic and it really can result in needing more evals, more interventions. It will be WORTH it if her visualization is a problem. It *is* a problem for a segment of kids but *not* for my ds. My ds' scores are very similar to yours and he has beautiful visualization. You can look at Verbalizing/Visualizing, run him through some activities where you read a text with her eyes closed and ask her to describe what she sees. It will be obvious. And if it's an issue, option one the curriculum, option two test for developmental vision problems. Hugely important. My dd with great reading had all kinds of developmental vision problems and my ds with ASD2 and all these diagnoses has none, go figure. But it's something to check, absolutely.

Did you notice the mini magnets? They should include both expository and narrative. And they have pdf files now so you can download and make ANYTHING you dream up. I keep planning to buy them to make graphic organizer pages the way I want. I mean the MW pages are GREAT but it's so sky is the limit, kwim? Buy a dab at a time, edge in, see what you need. It's a concept. I HIGHLY recommend their videos on youtube, just the free stuff. Also, they are about to do a webinar tomorrow that will KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF if you can get in. Sign up, do it. So worth your time. Consider the time you spend on their videos the TRAINING to implement the materials, kwim? They just did another workshop two weeks ago that they have finally linked. EXCEPTIONAL video. Seriously.  https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/webinars  It's the "play, pause, next" workshop. 

More in next.

 

Just as a quick refresher, I pulled out her CELF from end of second. She was below average in half the areas, but high enough in the other areas to score average overall. Of note to me, "linguistic concepts" was in the 5th %ile and "word structure" in the 9th%ile. Their reasoning on the first was that she hadn't yet been taught these concepts with common core grade level curriculum (mind you, it was May 🤷‍♀️). She had issues with things like either/or, neither/nor.  She had issues with irregular plurals, and irregular past tense verbs. And she was inconsistent with things like -ing, possessive pronouns etc. I swear I wish I could have been in the room. I truly don't think she'll ever return to public school, so I'm not too concerned about the ASD label for an IEP, but I will keep that in mind should it come up. I hadn't thought of her perhaps not visualizing well. I'll venture to say that's not the case, because she often explains things to me in pictures, drawing as she talks. But I guess I shouldn't assume she's able to do that while she is reading. Hmm, a very good point. She was screened for vision therapy at her last eye exam. We go to an eye doc that also does therapy in his office and he does it for all of his patients. I'll definitely watch videos! I'll need that to wrap my head around it hehe.

[Joyful Journeys]

10 hours ago, PeterPan said:

https://www.amazon.com/Word-Callers-One-One-Research-Informed/dp/0325026939/ref=sr_1_1?crid=15ZHIZ8DEQJPM&dchild=1&keywords=word+callers+by+kelly+cartwright&qid=1594077869&sprefix=word+callers%2Caps%2C165&sr=8-1  Did someone already mention this or did you already find it? Just go ahead and buy it.

https://www.aapcpublishing.com/products/drawing-a-blank?_pos=1&_sid=2ef684e6c&_ss=r&variant=23029038153776  This book hits a lot of the basic stuff. I think she missed some important pieces and can't remember what they were. I read it after I had already done a lot of research, so a lot was like yeah no joke and the rest was missing. But, you know, it's a place to start. AAPC is *wonderful* and you want to spend a lot of time there. You'll find so many gems and get so many ideas. Seriously high quality, leading edge stuff with a slant toward the higher IQ kids who benefit from some serious cognitive based approaches.

 

 

I saw the first in an old thread you posted while I was searching! I did order it today. I appreciate the second as well. I truly am fascinated with how my kids think and want to figure out how best to spend our time. I'm comforted that I listened to my gut and pulled her back out of school. She would have likely hit a wall soon in middle school and goodness knows what a mess she would have been battling social and academic issues at the same time.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Joyful Journeys

[Joyful Journeys]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

A couple random pieces. One, I used GPP=Grammar Processing Program from Super Duper Inc to good effect with my ds. You can tell from the samples whether it's a good starting point for your dc or unnecessary. I can recommend other things in that vein like the free pdf (oop) if link still works http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf2/100_vocabulary_primary.pdf  HIGHLY recommend. If she can't do this, it's SO worth your time. I expanded every unit out with more materials. Had him read aloud EVERYTHING on the page and do to complete comprehension.

I'm also really keen on the SPARC series from linguisystems/pro ed inc. Don't underestimate the difficulty of them. They start with simple usage at a word, then build the skill to phrases, sentences, and full narratives. STELLAR, kicks butt, amazing. And if you don't want to plunk out, then just use the thought process with anything you've got, kwim? The magic is always you, not the money you paid. Do something simple in an amazing way by working on it at the word level, building to phrases and sentences, then applying to narratives, merging it into your MW/SGM. You'll get the results you want. You'll be better than 99% of the SLPs you'll meet at that point. (Maybe that's not charitable, but there you go.)

 

At first glance, I thought surely she could do the Super Duper stuff easily, but by the last page, there was a much more involved sentence and now I'm not so sure. I'm going to grab her tomorrow and run through some of the suggestions. SPARC actually looks like it could be good for my son, those titles "concepts" and "routines" caught my eye, though I wish I could see samples?

[Joyful Journeys]

22 minutes ago, EKS said:

I haven't read the replies.

I'd take her for a developmental vision exam.  At the same time, I'd run through REWARDS with her and then do fluency readings for the next year or two.  

Fluency reading is where you have her read aloud for 20-30 minutes every day from text that is easy for her to read.  Then gradually increase the difficulty level until she is at or above grade level.

 

Thank you for chiming in! She was screened last year for vision therapy and things appeared ok on that front. Where might I find REWARDS? I appreciate the action step, that seems doable in our wild household! 

[PeterPan]

47 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

 

Just as a quick refresher, I pulled out her CELF from end of second. She was below average in half the areas, but high enough in the other areas to score average overall. Of note to me, "linguistic concepts" was in the 5th %ile and "word structure" in the 9th%ile. Their reasoning on the first was that she hadn't yet been taught these concepts with common core grade level curriculum (mind you, it was May 🤷‍♀️). She had issues with things like either/or, neither/nor.  She had issues with irregular plurals, and irregular past tense verbs. And she was inconsistent with things like -ing, possessive pronouns etc. I swear I wish I could have been in the room. I truly don't think she'll ever return to public school, so I'm not too concerned about the ASD label for an IEP, but I will keep that in mind should it come up. I hadn't thought of her perhaps not visualizing well. I'll venture to say that's not the case, because she often explains things to me in pictures, drawing as she talks. But I guess I shouldn't assume she's able to do that while she is reading. Hmm, a very good point. She was screened for vision therapy at her last eye exam. We go to an eye doc that also does therapy in his office and he does it for all of his patients. I'll definitely watch videos! I'll need that to wrap my head around it hehe.

Ok, so you're already doing the vision therapy screening, which is AWESOME. Yes, there are multiple components to comprehension, and once autism is on the table you literally have to go through EVERY BOX to sort it out sometimes. My ds is considered dyslexic, and when I taught him to read with Barton (appropriate for dyslexia) he was then HYPERLEXIC. And people were like that's cracked, that's not a thing, but it really is. The phonological processing disorder gets him a dyslexia label. The comprehension issues due to his language issues led to hyperlexia. It was just crazy. 

So yes, you've got issues Houston. You've got data showing it. The problem is good luck on finding an SLP to address it and good luck affording it. I hope you can, and you should try. I'm just saying I've bombed out. And I have a big budget thanks to our state disability process and I literally cannot find an SLP who is game to do this. Some are, because someone else here found one. Correction, two people on our boards (different locations) have found an SLP who would actually do it. One of the SLPs specialized in deaf children, so that's a path to look at. But at this age you'll find they want to do EET or some Granny's Candies and call it good. Not really enough for hyperlexia and severe issues. But, you know, go through what you're seeing and pick what you think she needs. I linked you that pdf and it will get you a long way for *free*. 

I'm now using the Spotlight on Grammar series with ds and plan to follow up with the HELP for Grammar book. It's just some of this stuff is really hard for him. Rocket science hard. I have to find a new way to work on adverbs.

Sorry, I'm getting tired and everything is going to muddle. It took a while for it to make sense to me *why* all these areas connect. Social thinking, interoception (self awareness), narrative language, syntax, attention, prior knowledge, phonological processing, metalinguistics, vocabulary, visualization, etc. all build into reading comprehension. They ALL are important pieces and they all fit together. I think it's ok just to start *somewhere* and do something, then do the next thing that you can wrap your brain around. Imperfect intervention will be better than NO intervention, and you're likely to do a BETTER job of it than you anticipate. None of these pieces, individually, are too terribly hard to work on. The materials are available. So it's just picking 1-3 things you want to target and working on them consistently for a while.

Oh, about the tv viewing. Yes, the language comprehension is probably showing up there. It does on my ds. So I think what you'll find is that as you move her *language* forward, her tv viewing will be an early indicator. We got some breakthroughs this year and I spent a month watch Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers movies with my ds. He could finally actually follow the plots.

[Joyful Journeys]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

 

Sorry, I'm getting tired and everything is going to muddle. It took a while for it to make sense to me *why* all these areas connect. Social thinking, interoception (self awareness), narrative language, syntax, attention, prior knowledge, phonological processing, metalinguistics, vocabulary, visualization, etc. all build into reading comprehension. They ALL are important pieces and they all fit together. I think it's ok just to start *somewhere* and do something, then do the next thing that you can wrap your brain around. Imperfect intervention will be better than NO intervention, and you're likely to do a BETTER job of it than you anticipate. None of these pieces, individually, are too terribly hard to work on. The materials are available. So it's just picking 1-3 things you want to target and working on them consistently for a while.

Oh, about the tv viewing. Yes, the language comprehension is probably showing up there. It does on my ds. So I think what you'll find is that as you move her *language* forward, her tv viewing will be an early indicator. We got some breakthroughs this year and I spent a month watch Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers movies with my ds. He could finally actually follow the plots.

 

Thank you for your thorough input, I've got a lot to think about. I'm trying to figure out what our days will look like together. I'm so used to having scripted, or mostly scripted programs work with and piecing things together terrifies me. I'm not typically an organized person, so I'm stressed. Add in siblings, and I just hope I don't fail her. Should we put aside typical programs like EIW and what not while we do this? I'm going to have her do Teaching Textbooks for math, and I'm hoping we can land on some fun history and science. Our reading/la block though, I can't see the forest for the trees haha. 

[PeterPan]

56 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

 

Thank you for your thorough input, I've got a lot to think about. I'm trying to figure out what our days will look like together. I'm so used to having scripted, or mostly scripted programs work with and piecing things together terrifies me. I'm not typically an organized person, so I'm stressed. Add in siblings, and I just hope I don't fail her. Should we put aside typical programs like EIW and what not while we do this? I'm going to have her do Teaching Textbooks for math, and I'm hoping we can land on some fun history and science. Our reading/la block though, I can't see the forest for the trees haha. 

Remind me, are you new to homeschooling with all these kids, some? TT is an interesting choice for math. I think you'll just have to see how it works out as math is totally about the dc. The things there to watch would be one whether she comprehends and two whether she generalizes. As long as both are there, you're golden. I used it with my dd in the middle school years and she enjoyed it. It did some good things for her and then we moved on. So all you can do is see what happens. My ds has math SLD so my whole vision of math these days is warped, lol.

I think for history and science you, well I'm trying to be brilliant and I'm not coming up with anything. You can use a textbook that fits her level of comprehension that might also work for the others and read it aloud to them all as a group. The Abeka 4 science is just tedious and filled with an astonishing amount of detail. It was cool but probably not memorable. It would be better for a student reading it for themselves I think. The Abeka 4 history, on the other hand, is quite good, go figure. And not that it has to be Abeka, but that idea of finding a simple spine, not too high on the language, and interacting with them on it. Videos are great. Depending on her IQ and interests, she might surprise you and like Great Courses on audio. You can get them through audible. You can throw SOTW on with audio. 

For my ds this year for science we tried the abeka 4 (just so so) and then started into a STEM kit that we LOVE. https://www.lakeshorelearning.com/products/stem/building-engineering/create-a-chain-reaction-stem-kit-grspan-stylewhite-space-nowrap3-5-span-master-set/p/PP849  There is a k-2 kit for this also. I just got him https://www.lakeshorelearning.com/products/stem/building-engineering/i-can-build-it-architecture-set/p/TT223  to do next. Also consider https://www.lakeshorelearning.com/products/stem/building-engineering/survive-the-quake-engineering-kit/p/DD121  

In other words, if you can get library books (huge IF these days, ugh) that fit her *lexile* level, you can read them aloud to her and then pump them up with hands on kits. That is a mix that seems to work for us and bridge the language issues and stimulate him at the level he thinks at at the same time. And these kits have the *structure* you were talking about, with chunks. So each week you do one card together and then let them make up their own challenges, kwim? My ds thrives on structure and the materials aimed at schools have that. We do a LOT of things from Lakeshore Learning successfully. Their hands on stuff will usually have structure like that, so their kits for math, etc. work exceptionally well for him. 

Did you say she got a dyslexia diagnosis? No? If she did, then you could use BARD to get audiobooks. If not, try your library. What I do with that is put in the topic (camping, clouds, anything, could be your science or history topics) and delimiters to make it only show kid books. 

I think for the writing you might see where she's at in the narrative language process before making the investment in EIW. Did she get a writing disability label? I think, and this is just my personal opinion that you can be subclinical (like my dd, who probably by all rights should have gotten an SLD Writing diagnosis and never did despite evals) and benefit from narrative language work. Sometimes you're just enough there that you skate by and it's HARD. So then working on the skill EXPLICITLY gets them to where it will be easier. So I think what could happen is she benefits from the narrative language work and you naturally start *applying* the stage you're working at to her other areas to get generalization. MW/SGM sells their book Core of the Core that does an excellent job of showing how narrative language leads to expository writing and how it gets applied to Common Core writing. There is a DIRECT connection and it will become obvious to you.

https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  At this link, study the narrative language stages chart and then look at the Thememaker (expository) chart and see how they connect. Each stage of narrative language opens up several expository structures they are ready to do and do well. So doing EIW may be premature, dunno. Just depends on where she is and how she rolls. Again, my ds has SLD Writing (yes math, reading, writing), so I'm completely warped on my sense of what needs to be done and can be done. That's just the theory though on how you can know if the task is appropriate. I would suggest focusing on the expository structures that fit her narrative language stage. Do those WELL rather than trying to buzz forward into things she's not ready for. See if the vocabulary and syntactical structures you're working on with your language intervention are showing up in those expository structures. Do the early things, each step, WELL. There's no benefit to rushing. 

The mismatch, to me is when their IQ is *here* and their language is *way down there*. So when I say do something well, it's allowing us to merge that. Is she able to get her thoughts out about that subject, reflecting her brightness, using the level of narrative language she has and the new language structures she has been instructed in? I think it will still be bright, engaging writing at that point. And then what you see is maybe it's more timely, if she seems ready, to begin to work on *typing*. How is her spelling? If you work on typing and spelling, you're giving her the pieces, the tools to get her thoughts out. So you're building her ability to organize, building her language, and then giving her tools to get it out. At that point, EIW is this culminating thing, not actually the steps of intervention that get you there. I would not use a regular curriculum to teach to an area of disability. I would use intervention level materials to intervene for disability and then use traditional materials when it's no longer an area of disability. 

That's just me, my hindsight. And granted my ds is pretty confounding like that. If it works and she has the language to be able to pick that up and do it, great. What I would be watching for is *scripting*. If she's bright enough to be able to do a program and kick out language in spite of significant language issues, then she's likely scripting, repeating large amounts of memorized language. And the danger there is that she's assigning meaning to large chunks of language rather than individual words and the components of words (morphology).

What you might find works better is to get her comprehending at the word level (with the vocabulary work using the pdf I linked and whatever else you do) and then focus on writing approaches that build from WORDS UP. Many right now are using models, which sounds great in theory. However remember we want to break scripting and get comprehension. If you really want something interesting, look at https://www.lakeshorelearning.com/products/language/writing-grammar/nonfiction-sequence-write-tiles/p/LL843  I'm not saying you have to buy this product. They have a fiction version and there are workbooks that do similar things. A program like IEW or Writing Tales, when they have you do keyword outlines, is doing something similar, asking them to think at the word level. For my ds, this is WICKED HARD. But you think about it. If she has language issues and you *don't* hit basics like the ability to use *specific vocabulary* and use the *academic vocabulary* then you're likely to get really vague writing. So just see what happens. If she doesn't, that's GREAT! But if she's going strangely vague, having a hard time getting it out, not using the academic vocabulary from the source, etc., then that's why.

So what I look for, and this is just me, is that my ds has the language components necessary for the stage, can do it using the appropriate specific vocabulary, can do it when prompted for a task (when reading together, for science/history), and can do it unprompted in real life situations. At that point to me the stage has generalized, kwim? 

https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/36161281-new-common-core-book-and-free-lesson?_pos=4&_sid=79d4fbfb3&_ss=r  Here, this isn't what I was looking for but it will get you started. It includes that expository progression. 

https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/46846209-expository-my-research-cut-and-fold-booklet?_pos=1&_sid=f83968cc4&_ss=r Found it! This is probably the best organizer out of the Core of the Core. Well at least the MW people told me it was their favorite. And you'll see how easy it would be to take the level of narrative she has or newly has and do as much as she's ready to do with it. Writing reports (what homeschoolers are going to call a narration) is a 4th grade skill. I think you just see how far she gets.

1 hour ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I'm not typically an organized person, so I'm stressed. Add in siblings, and I just hope I don't fail her.

You're about to become very organized to stay sane. Just find some organization/structure you can live with. I'm in the idiot proof camp, so I try to find things that come chunked or else have a plan like on these days we do it. I don't think you'll fail her if you do something consistently. I don't think you have to be extra brilliant or have a masters in it or even pay a lot of money. You can get a lot of this info on how to do the intervention FREE by using their shared pdfs, the youtube videos, etc. If an area is a disability, I would put the money into intervention materials, not curriculum. If you're not sure, I would delay buying the curriculum and try some things to see where she's at. Curriculum can be a huge waste. 

Fwiw, I think the 6 Traits Daily Writing from Evan Moor is EXCELLENT. https://www.evan-moor.com/daily-6-trait-writing-grade-2-teacher's-edition-e-book  It comes as pdf or print and they have it for all the grades. I started my ds at the (I forget, 1st, 2nd?) this past year, like this spring. We're working through it at an aggressive pace, doing gr 1-4 simultaneously. For him, jumping in at grade 4 or whatever would have been overwhelming. The "weeks" all hit the same topics, so by doing gr 1-4 of that "week" in a day, we're basically seeing the simplest to more complex of the same concept. It eases him into it, drops his anxiety, and we've gotten NOTICEABLE improvement. I HIGHLY recommend this in parallel with your intervention materials. It could be MUCH BETTER than almost any homeschool generated product for this stage. 

I buy the pdfs and print them (yes, $$$) because my ds really needs one page at a time. That was kind of an ABA/behaviorist thing we started years ago. And if you're like how is she juggling workbooks, well I'm not. I'm printing the ebooks and making packets, so then I just pick up a paper clipped packet for the day and that's the work for that subject. That's what I have to do for his support level. There's more I WANT to do. I mean, you can knock yourself out with work stations, lists, velcro, etc. I've done that in the past and have more I want to do, grand visions. But those packets with paper clips are how a lot of our work gets done. I can set them up and be good to go for a while. 

I tend to roll with a really crass do it because I said to, we're doing this, etc. kind of approach, but some people do that, I forget what it's called, where they have a list and rotate through it. So maybe there are 12 things on the list and they do as much as they get done and then they pick up with the list the next day and keep going. It can be a way to work. I admire it, just haven't tried it. It would be something to consider if you're really struggling with how to keep each person on track. Or like you're probably thinking, have check points where they all do things together. I haven't taught lots of kids so I can't speak to that. I hit two and sold one to gypsies.  (no seriously, two was hard, we sent one away to college, lol)

How is her spelling? I think I asked that. I will be interested to hear. Spelling for my ds was a parlor trick and didn't seem to be clicking. To spell, not only do you need to *comprehend* at the word level (otherwise it's memorized jibberish, not connected to meaning and comprehension) but you also need to understand the *parts* of words. So ironically, working on language at the word level got spelling to click for my ds. Then, when he started showing interest, we went back to it with things that connect visual and spelling to make sure he actually comprehends. We're doing really well with these crossword tile kits from Lakeshore. https://www.lakeshorelearning.com/products/language/phonics-word-building/phonics-crossword-puzzles-activity-centers-complete-set/p/GG395X  It's just endless what you can do and this does *not* have to be a pricy thing. I keep looking at some kits and realizing I can just make my own word lists and print pictures. This issue for my ds is the comprehension, connecting that spelling to a visual, to some actual meaning. That's what I'm suggesting you watch for.

We've also done really well with word searches. If you just need some independent work for her, consider word searches. Carson Dellosa has some that have been good for us. I don't know if you have independent work scheduled for her, but it's something to think about. 

[PeterPan]

I'm sorry if all this blows your mind btw. It's more like simple answer to a complex question or complex answer, kwim? The more complex the problem, the more you end up needing to tease apart all the pieces. But they fit together and after a while you make peace with it, pick a few to focus on, do them a while, then focus on another area for a while. You can multi task. You can also do the same areas of intervention for all the kids. Like if you're working on vocabulary and really in mode for that, hit them all, mercy. Whatever you're learning how to do (narrative language, syntax, emotions, interoception, etc.) everyone gets, boom. It will be great. 

[PeterPan]

Just in a totally different vein, have you seen https://www.amazon.com/Book-Whisperer-Awakening-Inner-Reader/dp/0470372273/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=book+whisperer&qid=1594132988&sr=8-3  ? I'm not saying it surmounts language issues or is a replacement for intervention. To me it's just kind of the balance, like there's BOTH, kwim? I was able to get both her books through the library and they're worth reading. They really pushed me on what it means to meet him where he is, to think about what *would* engage him. 

[Joyful Journeys]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Remind me, are you new to homeschooling with all these kids, some? TT is an interesting choice for math. I think you'll just have to see how it works out as math is totally about the dc. The things there to watch would be one whether she comprehends and two whether she generalizes. As long as both are there, you're golden. I used it with my dd in the middle school years and she enjoyed it. It did some good things for her and then we moved on. So all you can do is see what happens. My ds has math SLD so my whole vision of math these days is warped, lol.

 

 

Well technically yes, this is the first time I will have all 4 of my children, at home, and school age. I started off my WTM years with just my girls in K-2. They were a breeze then, though my oldest seemed to have dyslexia, we did Barton 1, but also vision therapy for a few months and made huge gains. She still prefers to listen to audiobooks, but she can read/comprehend well enough that I'm not worried about her now rising 7th. She will be doing her public school's distance learning unless we determine it to be subpar and we decide to fold her in with us.

My 10yo DD will be in 5th, 7yo DS (asd/sld math/sld reading/lingering language issues) is in first, and my soon to be 5yo (some funky speech, mostly artic now) will be doing a K primer of sorts as I red shirt him until traditional K in public post covid. If the last couple months of the school year was any indication, with 2 of 4 doing distance learning, my 10yo working with me, and my littlest running around just..yea...it will be a bit challenging. I myself have ADHD and an autoimmune disease, so I'm already hitting a mental wall. DS7 is so distracted always requiring so much redirection, I hope I have enough spoons left to even deal with the next kid haha. 

My 10yo and I were home solo for 4th with the rest at school, so I decided to let her "unschool" somewhat after a *very* stressful 3rd grade. We used Singapore which I adored with my oldest, and well, she has great number sense but has a very difficult time explaining her thought process with math. In fact, she kind of can't?😳 If I ask her to explain too many times or write it all down, she's in tears. I'm sure you've got some thoughts on that part haha. BUT, I'm only one person and I can already see that trying to do an intensive math/reading program with both of them while keeping the house afloat, and my youngest from harming himself unsupervised, will just be..a juggling act to say the least. I went through a TT lesson and it seems like a way for her to keep progressing without needing me to be arm and arm with her and still parent. I have a dream that something like TGATB would work for science and history as a family, but it's likely just that, a dream haha.  Honestly talking to her, you wouldn't really know she had any issues at all. She presents so close to NT, I don't think she scripts that much, she's level 1 (aspie basically). She has quite a big vocabulary.

I think that she spells fairly well for her age. But I will look at that again, since I don't really have much to compare her to, perhaps it's not as good as it should be. Letters and stories she writes are pretty legible. I would love to use something that combines typing and spelling. I think I was looking at Touch Type Read Spell. Anything I can use that hits a lot of areas simultaneously would be nice. I was going to do EIW because we've not done a formal writing program at all and the reviews from parents with kids with dyslexia were positive. Again, having her watch a video and work through some things independently would be nice. I'm fine holding off on that though until I know more about where the holes are.

 I used to know how to chunk quotes but the forum looks totally different now ugh!  

Edited July 7, 2020 by Joyful Journeys

[Joyful Journeys]

56 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm sorry if all this blows your mind btw. It's more like simple answer to a complex question or complex answer, kwim? The more complex the problem, the more you end up needing to tease apart all the pieces. But they fit together and after a while you make peace with it, pick a few to focus on, do them a while, then focus on another area for a while. You can multi task. You can also do the same areas of intervention for all the kids. Like if you're working on vocabulary and really in mode for that, hit them all, mercy. Whatever you're learning how to do (narrative language, syntax, emotions, interoception, etc.) everyone gets, boom. It will be great. 

 

Yes, the benefit to having all of my kids showing various learning difficulties is that usually one change we make or area we focus on helps the entire house! 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

My 10yo and I were home solo for 4th with the rest at school, so I decided to let her "unschool" somewhat after a *very* stressful 3rd grade. We used Singapore which I adored with my oldest, and well, she has great number sense but has a very difficult time explaining her thought process with math. In fact, she kind of can't?😳 If I ask her to explain too many times or write it all down, she's in tears. I'm sure you've got some thoughts on that part haha.

Unschooling is fine. You can pick printable graphic organizers from MW/SGM or make your own using their newly available graphics and then let her log/make responses. I did a LOT of response journal stuff with my dd. Also consider writing prompts, things that are briefer that let her go her own direction. It's kind of counterintuitive, but sometimes kids can both have an SLD in something *and* be gifted in it. So I think for math, for writing, for these areas where they seem to be very bright but have some challenges, you kind of teach to *both directions* if that makes sense. So let her do some bright/creative writing AND some intervention writing. Not all one or the other. On the math, same gig, doing something that appeals to her brightness maybe one day a week and something that fits with her need for structure, predictability, and lower language demands the rest. 

My stuff is downstairs, but we had some really cool things we did with fractions this past year. Didax, etc. have workbooks like this. Probability is another good area. Anything with games, more complex topics bright kids visualize. If the easy things are hard and the hard things are easy, then you kind of need to do both to keep them happy. So with my ds, he's SLD math but I'll look for something he can visualize and do it above grade level even. Keeps him happy, because the rest of the stuff is more basal, using Ronit Bird. (highly recommend)

Yeah, my dd's language drops when she's stressed or tired and now my ds does enough that it has become apparent his does too. So I agree it happens. You both have to have the language and have to have it available to use right then. You can try words on cards, pointing, dropping language. I don't know, if the language is a disability then sometimes using the language isn't the big goal. Maybe for some kids, but sometimes it's not the battle to have. Tech, pointing to words on cards, using visuals, anything you want. And if you're feeling like TT drops the language demands, that could be really smart! You're thinking it out right.

11 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

Honestly talking to her, you wouldn't really know she had any issues at all.

You do know that's the hardest situation to get intervention in, right? Haha, because you spend all your time proving it needs to happen. Of course, the other direction is low expectations, but we won't talk about that, rant rant.

So I think the challenge there is realizing what you're *not* hearing. I think if you work her through that free 100% Vocabulary (which basically hits feature/function/class, attributes, all that junk in a more challenging way), you're going to see whether she has holes there. If she doesn't, that's awesome. Make sure she can do the skills of EET. What @kbutton has found is funky holes. Like you think he has it, and this *one thing* isn't quite there. So you're just going to go through everything and look for those holes. 

I think the thing to watch is both narrative language and syntactical complexity. If you look at where her reading comprehension is leveling off, it might reflect a syntax hurdle. So then, if you see that and you start inventorying her speech and realize she's not using those structures in speech, you can do some targeted intervention. https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/33809E/spotlight-on-grammar-compound-and-complex-sentences-ebook.aspx You'll notice in the MW/SGM charts that syntax holds back some of the stages of narrative language development.

I would not expect *errors* so much as *absence* of structures. 

17 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I think that she spells fairly well for her age.

This is awesome! Yes, your idea to get her typing her spelling seems spot on. I'm forever wanting a good computer spelling program. Definitely share. 

You mentioned you're considering ADHD meds. We waited till 16 on my dd, and it was longer than necessary. She's into an age where it could be surprising what they'd do. Obviously they're a little nerve wracking at first, but we've had some people find the meds literally turned on reading for kids who were there and just couldn't pull it together. It can happen. Now my dd read fine anyway, but I'm not sure that's the norm. I'm just saying I wouldn't be slow to medicate if you're considering it, not at this age. It could be pivotal. My ds is a terrible candidate for ADHD meds, but for him anxiety meds have improved behavior. Even if you have a complex scenario to work through, it might be worth it.

24 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

Letters and stories she writes are pretty legible.

That's a really good sign that she can do this!! My ds is like blood and turnips, lol.

24 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I used to know how to chunk quotes but the forum looks totally different now ugh!  

It requires secret magic.   Highlight the text with your mouse/finger and a little command/option box should appear allowing you to quote. 

[EKS]

12 hours ago, Joyful Journeys said:

Thank you for chiming in! She was screened last year for vision therapy and things appeared ok on that front. Where might I find REWARDS? I appreciate the action step, that seems doable in our wild household! 

Here's the link to the publisher's store:  http://store.voyagersopris.com/rewards-intermediate-and-secondary/

You will need both the teacher book and the student book.  You can sometimes find the teacher book used, but the student book is a workbook, so you'll want to be careful about condition.

[Joyful Journeys]

That's absolutely it, I spent all of 2nd and 3rd insisting she needs help and it was so hard to prove. When we got to TEACCH for her eval it was a breath of fresh air, they immediately "got" her and even asked her to come back to talk with a new pysch they were considering hiring and are using her artwork to help with some of their programming for teachers

Yes, eliminating as much language as possible seems to be the name of the game with math! The more I asked, the more I explained, she shut down. She *can* explain with things like c-rods, so I know it's all in there. She does enjoy games, and I'm going to see about making sure she can do some math puzzles games too for some fun. Absence of structures..yes yes..I follow. As soon as she's up and fed, we're going to try some of the 100% and do some cold reading aloud/questioning. I even grabbed an AAS placement test.  Then I'm going to listen to the webinar as much as they'll allow (yay bluetooth headphones) and then sit back down tonight and see where we stand. I'm hyperfocusing on having one kid sorted a week so hopefully by August we can actually start school lol. Thank you so much for talking this out with me, having some direction on where to get started has helped tremendously. 

[EKS]

In reading your OP more carefully, a few more things come to mind.

It's important to distinguish between comprehension and memory.  Is she able to answer questions about a text when she is allowed to consult it?

How does she do when you read aloud to her?  Does she seem to understand what's going on then?

Does she ever read nonfiction?  How does she do with that?

If she is able to easily decode longer words, I wouldn't spend time (and money!) on REWARDS.

[Joyful Journeys]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

In reading your OP more carefully, a few more things come to mind.

It's important to distinguish between comprehension and memory.  Is she able to answer questions about a text when she is allowed to consult it?

How does she do when you read aloud to her?  Does she seem to understand what's going on then?

Does she ever read nonfiction?  How does she do with that?

If she is able to easily decode longer words, I wouldn't spend time (and money!) on REWARDS.

 

I had her do Reading Eggspress for a few weeks to see about that very thing. It's a lot of read and answer questions over and over. Some of that was nonfiction. She struggled. I don't think she ever got 100% on the questions, just did well enough to pass. She would have to go back to the text over and over and sometimes just guessed. I know multiple choice isn't the greatest but when I would sit down with her and see the answer fairly clearly in front her, she didn't understand until I either rephrased the question and/or read the text back to her. I do tend to be pretty animated with read alouds and stop often for us to discuss. She seems to hang right in there with me during those times and some stories we've read had her bringing past experiences and making connections. I don't believe I've just read a passage cold and asked questions, not in my nature, but I'm going to do that this week with a mix of book levels to see how she does. I wouldn't be surprised if I've been compensating for her without even realizing it. Hmm decoding longer words, I'll have to see. I feel like she perhaps has built up a massive store of memorized words. I should probably throw some nonsense words at her to be sure?

[PeterPan]

14 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I even grabbed an AAS placement test.

Ooo, I didn't realize they have a placement test! That's smart!

Given the poor CELF scores (which remember has MULTIPLE CHOICE, which isn't REAL LIFE), I think unfortunately language issues are going to underlie the reading comprehension issues. I mean, I'm all for working on decoding, sure. But there's still just flat comprehending. And what can happen is that her memorized language may allow her to bluff out decoding tests. Unless they use nonsense, it might not show. In fact, she may stumble on easy words more than hard.

13 minutes ago, EKS said:

In reading your OP more carefully, a few more things come to mind.

It's important to distinguish between comprehension and memory.  Is she able to answer questions about a text when she is allowed to consult it?

How does she do when you read aloud to her?  Does she seem to understand what's going on then?

Does she ever read nonfiction?  How does she do with that?

If she is able to easily decode longer words, I wouldn't spend time (and money!) on REWARDS.

This is so true. It's why I think the ADHD meds are an important question, because attention, just flat turning on your brain and ATTENDING, makes a huge difference. My dd could do that, where she'd read something and have ZERO clue what she read, and for her it was attention. She had to work to engage, attend, turn on her processing. So if you watch experienced teachers, they do things to increase engagement with the text. They go through vocabulary, ask them if they've ever felt things or been in the situations the characters experience, etc. 

Working memory is a factor, yes. But we're just getting a lot going here. LOL Working memory is kind of a use it or lose it. You don't want it in the dumps, but you also end up with the level that you're actually working at.

A *more* interesting question for the op is her ability to repeat a sentence. While it would seem like a working memory issue, sentence repetition is actually a gross test of language comprehension. So for instance my ds struggled with memorizing Scripture, which is totally counter intuitive given that he was memorizing paragraphs and pages from audiobooks. He just didn't understand what he was hearing in the memory verses well enough to repeat them back and memorize, and he was memorizing audiobooks without comprehension.

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

It's a lot of read and answer questions over and over.

multiple choice? That's pretty telling if she's even struggling with multiple choice. My ds can bluff them out.

6 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I don't believe I've just read a passage cold and asked questions, not in my nature, but I'm going to do that this week with a mix of book levels to see how she does. I wouldn't be surprised if I've been compensating for her without even realizing it.

You're about to do a lot of things you've never done, lol.

So just a suggestion, but I would target your comprehension questions to the level of narrative she's working at. That way everything reinforces. Like don't go sky high and ask emotions and inferences and on and on if you're working on action sequences or descriptive sequences, kwim? Let your intervention components work together. Do one level WELL, completely, where she can do the skill in lots of scenarios in both directions (comprehending and expressing), then move to the next level.

Also just a suggestion, but I would take the language level of your source material down dramatically and consider controlling for lexile. Like try a 240. There are engines. You can look up books you already have and see on amazon what the lexile is. This is what I use https://hub.lexile.com/ The goal is not to *frustrate* her. We want only positive experiences.

Edited July 7, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I do tend to be pretty animated with read alouds and stop often for us to discuss.

It's a sin. You should NEVER be animated, stop to discuss, ask questions, or do anything to improve comprehension or attention. 

Seriously, you're doing good stuff! You knew this was going on, but you didn't have numbers and data to validate your GUT. So lexile, testing like the SPELT and TNL, these are ways you make data. I got to the ps and I tell his IEP team that his read alouds are at this lexile and what he reads for himself are at this lexile and we're finally talking the same language. You can do the same with Fountas & Pinnell. I got their readers through the teacher's college lending library near us. That's a snazzy place to try for free stuff btw. They will have math manips, curriculum, science kits, all sorts of stuff.

[PeterPan]

28 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

Then I'm going to listen to the webinar

It will be recorded so you can catch what you miss later.   

[PeterPan]

28 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I'm hyperfocusing on having one kid sorted a week so hopefully by August we can actually start school lol.

I love this! I know, we had a good break, got rested, and now I need to go into kick your butt and get things ready mode. 

I think you know this, but it's ok to balance OTHER stuff and call it school. Like for us, mental health is school. Life skills are school. Cooking is school. Being able to do work (weed whack, water plants, etc.) is school. Do not rag yourself or do something that fits other kids and isn't what they need. You're wise to focus on pivotal things and also to do some things that build competency.

You know this, but I'm just saying don't doubt yourself as you write it out.

[EKS]

13 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I had her do Reading Eggspress for a few weeks to see about that very thing. It's a lot of read and answer questions over and over. Some of that was nonfiction. She struggled. I don't think she ever got 100% on the questions, just did well enough to pass. She would have to go back to the text over and over and sometimes just guessed. I know multiple choice isn't the greatest but when I would sit down with her and see the answer fairly clearly in front her, she didn't understand until I either rephrased the question and/or read the text back to her. I do tend to be pretty animated with read alouds and stop often for us to discuss. She seems to hang right in there with me during those times and some stories we've read had her bringing past experiences and making connections. I don't believe I've just read a passage cold and asked questions, not in my nature, but I'm going to do that this week with a mix of book levels to see how she does. I wouldn't be surprised if I've been compensating for her without even realizing it. Hmm decoding longer words, I'll have to see. I feel like she perhaps has built up a massive store of memorized words. I should probably throw some nonsense words at her to be sure?

I would ditch the reading programs and see if you can find reading material that is well within her level that is also interesting.  You need something to hold her attention, and the leveled passages included in most reading programs are generally pretty awful.

Have her read the text aloud to you and stop every so often to comment on something.  The idea here is to make it a conversation rather than an interrogation.  This will allow you to see what aspects of the text have meaning for her.  Frequently reading comprehension questions focus on minutiae---it is more important that she comprehend the big picture, rather than remember all of the items the characters brought on their picnic (or whatever).

With regard to your reading aloud--I wouldn't necessarily simply read a passage cold and then start questioning her.  I would simply continue what you've been doing only paying attention to how much compensating you might be providing.  It may help to remember that reading comprehension is a process--not an all or nothing thing--and that context is critical, so it's important not to eliminate that context by reading a passage out of the blue. 

[Joyful Journeys]

13 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I love this! I know, we had a good break, got rested, and now I need to go into kick your butt and get things ready mode. 

I think you know this, but it's ok to balance OTHER stuff and call it school. Like for us, mental health is school. Life skills are school. Cooking is school. Being able to do work (weed whack, water plants, etc.) is school. Do not rag yourself or do something that fits other kids and isn't what they need. You're wise to focus on pivotal things and also to do some things that build competency.

You know this, but I'm just saying don't doubt yourself as you write it out.

I appreciate that too. Last year, it was a victory to get her out of bed some days. I made her go to a small art coop and even though she likes art it was a struggle. We worked through anxiety/depression issues and have finally landed on the right medication I think that has lifted the fog so we could even really start learning again. I’m trying to make up for lost time but I do need to let go of some pressure. 

[Joyful Journeys]

6 minutes ago, EKS said:

I would ditch the reading programs and see if you can find reading material that is well within her level that is also interesting.  You need something to hold her attention, and the leveled passages included in most reading programs are generally pretty awful.

Have her read the text aloud to you and stop every so often to comment on something.  The idea here is to make it a conversation rather than an interrogation.  This will allow you to see what aspects of the text have meaning for her.  Frequently reading comprehension questions focus on minutiae---it is more important that she comprehend the big picture, rather than remember all of the items the characters brought on their picnic (or whatever).

With regard to your reading aloud--I wouldn't necessarily simply read a passage cold and then start questioning her.  I would simply continue what you've been doing only paying attention to how much compensating you might be providing.  It may help to remember that reading comprehension is a process--not an all or nothing thing--and that context is critical, so it's important not to eliminate that context by reading a passage out of the blue. 

Happy to ditch that, she hated it so much haha. I didn’t know a measurable way to reinforce comprehension though.  I love what you’ve said here, seems like we’d have a much better time. I’m thinking of getting the sequel to the Wild Robot since I know she at least enjoyed that story read aloud and it is technically below her level. So maybe that’ll go over well. I’m not sure about any of her level at this point, the more I think about it the more I question everything. 🤣

[PeterPan]

32 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

a victory

That's really good. It has taken us a while to get the kinks worked out on mental health too, sigh.

24 minutes ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I’m thinking of getting the sequel to the Wild Robot since I know she at least enjoyed that story read aloud and it is technically below her level.

Well my ds was listening to Great Courses (college level) at age 5 but failing the preschool SPELT at age 9/10. So yeah, level is pretty meaningless. Kids will stretch to comprehend and engage with something they really enjoy.

When I'm suggesting to drop back on lexile, I'm saying for when you're working on clean, complete comprehension and ability to narrate and discuss. If it's just for pleasure, sure anything. But she may be decoding way beyond what she comprehends and she may be able to bluff on a multiple choice comprehension test beyond what she really understands for narrative language, syntax, etc. And her interest may be way beyond all of those. 

So you're ok to appeal to all of them, sure. Just know what you're working on when you make the choice. If I'm doing it *with* ds, I want complete comprehension. If I'm giving it to him for pleasure, I'll ramp up as much as suits him.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

In reading your OP more carefully, a few more things come to mind.

It's important to distinguish between comprehension and memory.  Is she able to answer questions about a text when she is allowed to consult it?

How does she do when you read aloud to her?  Does she seem to understand what's going on then?

Does she ever read nonfiction?  How does she do with that?

If she is able to easily decode longer words, I wouldn't spend time (and money!) on REWARDS.

This prompted another thought for me...she could struggle to comprehend something worded more than one way or fail to translate the wording of a question into the wording found in the text. For example, my son would read and answer questions, and if the question and the text meant the same thing but didn't use the same words, he would be lost. Technically, he could understand it, but he was leaving out the intermediate step of recognizing or figuring out that both ways of phrasing things were equivalent. It's totally an extra step for him in getting the meaning. Also, kids can be overly literal with wording, just plain not understand one or both ways of phrasing it, and, quite common with ASD, be unable to translate statements into questions or make statements from questions. This is a HUGE issue in ASD, especially with wh- questions (who, what, why, where, when, and how).

1 hour ago, Joyful Journeys said:

I had her do Reading Eggspress for a few weeks to see about that very thing. It's a lot of read and answer questions over and over. Some of that was nonfiction. She struggled. I don't think she ever got 100% on the questions, just did well enough to pass. She would have to go back to the text over and over and sometimes just guessed. I know multiple choice isn't the greatest but when I would sit down with her and see the answer fairly clearly in front her, she didn't understand until I either rephrased the question and/or read the text back to her.

I do tend to be pretty animated with read alouds and stop often for us to discuss. She seems to hang right in there with me during those times and some stories we've read had her bringing past experiences and making connections. I don't believe I've just read a passage cold and asked questions, not in my nature, but I'm going to do that this week with a mix of book levels to see how she does. I wouldn't be surprised if I've been compensating for her without even realizing it. Hmm decoding longer words, I'll have to see. I feel like she perhaps has built up a massive store of memorized words. I should probably throw some nonsense words at her to be sure?

I broke this up--first paragraph--that suggests she is struggling with comprehending the questions, the text, going back and forth between a statement and a question, or struggling with wh- stuff, or all of the above. 

2nd paragraph--you should do this, but realize that when she seems to do "better" with hearing something read aloud, that animation while reading is clueing her in to meaning. My son does better with read-alouds at times than reading silently because voice emphasizes meaning. The kicker for him, which is quite interesting, is that reading out loud to himself also does the same thing for my son. I don't have to be the one reading because he uses punctuation and other clues to animate the reading himself. It's just that in his case, the meaning of why he's doing that doesn't sink in through seeing those cues on page, it's on hearing himself or someone else use those cues. I suspect most kids would just decode it, and not necessarily be able to insert the animated voices into a text if they weren't comprehending it first, but he's always been the kind of kid that makes things harder to make them easier, lol! 

Anyway, continue with read alouds. Use that animated voice for everything in life--my son needed hyperbole when he was little in order to sort things in his brain. It was both funny to him and a big help to be a little over the top. I also narrated everything I was thinking and doing for him, which helped a great deal with learning how other people think. 

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ooo, I didn't realize they have a placement test! That's smart!

Given the poor CELF scores (which remember has MULTIPLE CHOICE, which isn't REAL LIFE), I think unfortunately language issues are going to underlie the reading comprehension issues. I mean, I'm all for working on decoding, sure. But there's still just flat comprehending. And what can happen is that her memorized language may allow her to bluff out decoding tests. Unless they use nonsense, it might not show. In fact, she may stumble on easy words more than hard.

A *more* interesting question for the op is her ability to repeat a sentence. While it would seem like a working memory issue, sentence repetition is actually a gross test of language comprehension. So for instance my ds struggled with memorizing Scripture, which is totally counter intuitive given that he was memorizing paragraphs and pages from audiobooks. He just didn't understand what he was hearing in the memory verses well enough to repeat them back and memorize, and he was memorizing audiobooks without comprehension.

My son used some memorized language, but not to the extent that PeterPan's son has. My son's was totally functional, and he did comprehend what he was saying. He would not memorize something he didn't comprehend (though sometimes he gathered a different meaning from it via different reasoning, but he wasn't just using it on autopilot). 

42 minutes ago, EKS said:

I would ditch the reading programs and see if you can find reading material that is well within her level that is also interesting.  You need something to hold her attention, and the leveled passages included in most reading programs are generally pretty awful.

Have her read the text aloud to you and stop every so often to comment on something.  The idea here is to make it a conversation rather than an interrogation.  This will allow you to see what aspects of the text have meaning for her.  Frequently reading comprehension questions focus on minutiae---it is more important that she comprehend the big picture, rather than remember all of the items the characters brought on their picnic (or whatever).

With regard to your reading aloud--I wouldn't necessarily simply read a passage cold and then start questioning her.  I would simply continue what you've been doing only paying attention to how much compensating you might be providing.  It may help to remember that reading comprehension is a process--not an all or nothing thing--and that context is critical, so it's important not to eliminate that context by reading a passage out of the blue. 

I partially disagree with this advice when it comes to autism. Oftentimes, the controlled reading is also controlled meaning and syntax--there are multiple ways to level a passage, and sometimes it's by phonics, and sometimes it's by syntax or something that is crucial for understanding with kids who have autism or another language disorder. If we were talking about decoding only, I would agree. Also, sometimes kids on the spectrum have restricted interests due to social comprehension or language.

Yes, make it conversation, but don't make the meaning just about her. This kind of advice led to me concluding that my son's quirks were just that he was not interested in certain kinds of things, or that different things were important to him than other people. It covered up the language issues to believe this and act on it, and it was very, very detrimental. Kids need to understand the relationship between main points and details. 

Context is important, but it can be a crutch that kids with language holes use, and sometimes the crutch becomes the strategy with ASD kids whereas for a kid with dyslexia or another language issue, the crutch might just bridge the gap and go away all on its own when something else in their brain matures. With kids who have ASD, these crutches can throw them totally off the trail or lead them to miss the forest for the trees and incorporate it as the right way to do things. ASD kids can take context and stretch it to absurd meanings as well as use it correctly. It just depends on the kid, the subject, the particular language glitch. When you give a kid with ASD a crutch, you really have to understand what might be done with it, lol!!!

I do agree that it's not all or nothing, but I think you should use Mindwing Concepts or another intervention program that very explicitly builds meaning from parts and integrates both the big picture and the details. Curriculum is going to be hit and miss on that, and it's also going to be more willy nilly about touching all the right bases. Mindwing Concepts and other heavy duty publishers realize that they have to be precise and consistent to help things generalize.