SGM and SKILL for Narrative

[PeterPan]

Narrative language has your receptive and expressive aspects, but just in general I'd make the assumption is comprehension is at the level that he's getting out. So like if he's at a stage 3 narrative, that's probably the extent of the content he's really, really understanding. Play with it, but there's definitely some correlation there. 

So the flip side is that getting him to the next stage of narrative language opens up more comprehension. But the bad side is, being behind really is glitching. He might have pieces, but he's not processing the meaning of the whole at the level you're hoping for.

So I will drag out my stuff today if you want. I need to get my act in gear anyway. I have narrative and syntax and desserts to deal with, so maybe I can multi-task, ,lol.

[PeterPan]

I'm back and I brought my SKILL.

Phase 1 has 17 lessons where they introduce the parts, do some co-telling (11), element ID in retelling (12), parallel development (13), parallel without visuals (14), and comprehension units (15-17).

Per my sticky note, my ds stalled out in lesson 6. The Plan. This means he supposedly did lesson 5, Feelings, but it was crap worthless for him. There's a big gap between "I taught it" and "my ds can do it" kwim? You can TALK emotions all you want, and he knows scads of words. But does he connect those words with body feelings and memories to create something he actually uses in real life? Snort no, of course not. So did that lesson do any good???

The problem is never your instruction, not on this. The problem is it has to click in the missing modalities and make brain pathways, get used, get generalized, get applied. And when people are saying YEARS, they aren't joking.

So if you hang at a therapy center, you'll meet kids who sound robotic, who had lists and steps drilled into them. I'm exceptionally hesitant to drill steps the way SKILL seems to be implying, because *I* don't think that's going to result in something generalized, natural sounding, and applied to real life.

So I think lesson 5 needed a huge expansion, a whole year of material. But the Gillams say to plow forward anyway. And of course if the people have a phd, they know better than me. Snort. But it is telling that therapists actually working with kids aren't doing that, only the people working in universities. Your big "MUST BE EVIDENCE-BASED" crowd lives in universities. So if the evidence lags behind the need, we're left to experience. Whatever.

Phase 2 has 11 lessons. Both phases had exit tests. 

lesson 1-2-elaboration

lesson 3-dialogue

lesson 4-plan/action, COMPLICATION sequences (no complications in the phase 1 run through of story parts)

lesson 5-parallel story telling with/without visuals

lesson 6-elaborating with adverbs

lesson 7-elaborating on setting

lesson 8-elaborating on feelings

lesson 9-application unit

lesson 10-elaborated noun phrases

lesson 11-application unit

So clearly the stuff they're hitting is GOOD STUFF!! Take that lesson 10 on elaborating on noun phrases, that's super good stuff, right? Going to make their narratives sound better, right? So you tell me, will a 2 page lesson where you ask them to describe a penguin with more words get you there?? Because that's it. Oh hey, a few more prompts! (penguin's shirt, penguin's song, what the hunter's look like, what was the penguin's dive like?)

So for my ds, that would not be enough. For my ds, we've been using V/V techniques and I Spy games and Telepath and charades and all kinds of practice every day for MONTHS to try to build his ability to add meaningful description. But hey yeah, let the researchers say they did it because they did it one time with one lesson, lol.

And here's the other thing. If you sit there and hawk something enough and use cards enough and train the kid enough, he's gonna go ok, when I sit in front of that woman with those cards, this is what she wants. And he's gonna crank something out to the best of his ability. But then when he turns around and doesn't have the cards and doesn't have you breathing down his neck (to do something that's too hard and not natural), is he going to do it?

So that's why I go back to my slow and generalized. Every single one of those things they hit was super important. They're also woven into the stages of the MW/SGM/ASD kits. For my ds, they're something we can hit over and over and over and he just keeps growing. This is a dc who couldn't tell me where an object was on a shelf or in a room. He'd want something and grunt. So one brief little lesson isn't going to help him apply what flat isn't there. He needed significant intervention. It's why his label is ASD2, and that level of language disability is a marker for that level of ASD support. It differentiates him from a level 1. You don't expect to need to provide this much support for a level 1.

And spit on the psych who told me to run from ABA for him. The psych meant well, but it made us scared to embrace good help and needed triaging.

I'll do phase 3 in the next post.

[PeterPan]

So we're talking SKILL phase --Teaching Strategies for Integration into Long Term Memory. That in and of itself is an interesting thing, because they're not saying walk kids through developmental stages. They're saying do this until the parts stick. And THAT is a legitimate thing to debate, kwim? They're being upfront about their goal here.

lesson 1-application

lesson 2-if/then statements 

lesson 3-self-monitoring with rubric/tools

lesson 4-co-creating/editing stories using sequenced pictures

lesson 5-retelling those lesson 4 stories

lesson 6-co-creating from single scene prompts

lesson 7-retelling lesson 6 stories

lesson 8-application

Then there's a section of additional practice, with fresh storyboards to review things that are crunchy.

So that's it. Many of those phase 2 lessons had two parts, but they were not more detailed, if that makes sense. There are no rabbit trails, no expansions, no let's dwell here. These are completely scripted presentations that grad students are handed to read to kids and get them to do things. And whatever the kids take from it is their problem because these are the lessons.

You CAN pause and do breakouts, sure. Any sensible person would. So now talk the ASD kit. I use their stage pages and I interject them between SKILL lessons. I use them as the exit test for each step of SKILL and I don't go forward in SKILL unless he can do what's on the ASD page for the level we're working at. They merge together well. But is SKILL adding a ton for me? Is it good instruction? I like it, how tidy it is. It will be just like the samples imply. 

I just can't get milk from rocks, blood from Vulcans, whatever. If I want emotions coming out, we have to work on emotions. SKILL doesn't give me that. ASD gives me *some*. Like it comes with these snazzy emotion printouts, faces, bookmarks for while we're reading, bending graphic organizers that show connections between feelings and actions, etc. SGM TRIES. 

[Storygirl]

Just in case you'd like another person chiming in.... it sounds like autism to me, as well. DS15 just got his autism diagnosis THIS summer. I cannot even tell you how many people offered their opinion over the years that it was not autism -- pediatrician, neuropsychologist, counselors, etc. So many times. Yet, I had been concerned that it was, ever since he was about two years old. The thing is that all of these people were just offering their opinions, and no one had run thorough testing just on the autism issue. When we had the ADOS run, finally, this summer, the psychologist said it was so obvious during the testing. Even though it has never been "so obvious" to anyone just observing him, other than those of us at home, that see all sides of him, unfiltered.

So I think it would be beneficial for you to consider an autism evaluation. You can look at the DSM-5 autism diagnostic criteria online -- and also read articles that explain what kind of things an evaluator would look for that would fit into those criteria (because it's not always the first thing that you might think of). I found it helpful to just go through the criteria and write down for myself all the things over the years that I had concerns with that fit into those criteria. If you can state for yourself clearly the traits that you see in him that may signal autism, it may help you to convince someone that you need a referral for an evaluation (assuming that you need a referral; it depends upon your insurance).

Although you can just work with therapy level materials at home to address issues, I found that it became important for us to actually have the diagnosis, as DS approaches adulthood, because the diagnosis will open doors for support and help from organizations other than family members. DS now gets disability services through the county and the state. Even though he is still the kind of guy that people would meet and not really suspect autism.

[Storygirl]

On 8/30/2019 at 12:01 PM, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Yeah I don’t know why words don’t have meaning naturally to him either. It's his native language.
 

I'm pulling this sentence out of your post.

The thing with kids with autism or other pragmatic language issues is that they don't make the same connections that others make naturally. Sometimes people like my son have trouble with the nonverbal part of communication. Some say that nonverbals count for up to 65% of communication, so someone who has trouble with that can be missing a TON, even if they are listening to the words that are spoken.

People also can have trouble with inference, so that if anything is not stated in a completely obvious way, it flies over their head. There is more inference in speech and writing than I ever would have guessed (because I am good at it naturally), but now I notice it, because DS15 can't do it. It's a major stumbling block for him. So he may be able to understand all of the words individually, but he doesn't get what they mean in that particular context.

People can also be good at remembering details but not understand how they connect to the main idea. Getting the main idea can be a big issue. So DS can read a story and remember that the main character wore a particular hat and chewed gum, but he may not understand the importance of that person to the plot. It just doesn't connect for him. Stories can just be a string of details one after the other, and the sense of meaning of the story is lost to him. We've found that this is not only a problem in reading for him, but in other areas, particularly history. But also science, where he sees what happens in an experiment, but doesn't get the WHY.

So yes to working on vocabulary. But not just vocabulary as an independent study. But it can be helpful to PRELOAD vocabulary before reading a book or passage. So you would go through it first, pick out the words that you think will be hard, and deliberately explain them first, before reading. And then you can stop as you read, to discuss and remind him of what things mean

And because kids can miss so much of life that others absorb, they often need to have "background knowledge" PRELOADED before they read, as well. I put that in quotes, because it is a specific thing, and you can read more about what background knowledge is. For example, if you are reading a story in which the main character goes sailing, a typical reader might just know what sailing is. But some kids need to be shown a picture of a sailing boat and have it explained to them in some detail, before starting the story.

"Preloading" is a phrase that was used in DS's IEP and by his intervention specialist at school. I remember her specifically talking about how much extra work preloading background knowledge and vocabulary she did with DS when he was reading a story about the Titanic. So much -- pictures, extra nonfiction articles to go along with the fiction piece they were reading, a lesson in what an iceberg is and what it looks like, etc. All so that he could understand the main story they were reading.

[Storygirl]

And this background knowledge gap is not because the students were not given the same opportunities to learn about the world around them as other kids. We took our kids to museums, and I read to them widely, and I talked a lot to them about everything when they were little.

And my other three kids do not have gaps with background knowledge, but DS15 does. It's the autism.

Oh, that's the other thing. You may find you need to explain so many more things out loud to your son. Just things that other kids notice, he may not pick up on. So it can hep to kind of narrate life as you go about doing things, explaining what you are doing and pointing out why. Even basic things, like why we brush our teeth. Why we look up at traffic when crossing a parking lot. Why we don't say people are fat, even if we notice they are overweight, etc. (Sigh-- unfortunate real life examples there).

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

Oh, that's the other thing. You may find you need to explain so many more things out loud to your son. Just things that other kids notice, he may not pick up on. So it can hep to kind of narrate life as you go about doing things, explaining what you are doing and pointing out why. Even basic things, like why we brush our teeth. Why we look up at traffic when crossing a parking lot. Why we don't say people are fat, even if we notice they are overweight, etc. (Sigh-- unfortunate real life examples there).

I agree with all that Storygirl has said, but I wanted to point out that I did this to the point of being ridiculous when my son was younger--you just couldn't leave anything to chance, lol! 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

Thanks so much PeterPan for your time reviewing the SKILL book. So basically SKILL doesn’t go that deep to be useful and SGM stage chart is more of a framework? For example, I still would need the entire VV curriculum just to learn to describe character & setting (and hopefully actions) in details, Interception for feelings. I emailed MW again to ask what I’d miss out on if anything for not getting the SGM & expository manual. Sorry I know I’m obsessed with expository, because most of his school work was non-fiction. I also think narrative should help with his working memory. 

Kbutton: no he is not able to engage in a back-forth conversation or discussion of a story/movie at all. I am just working as much as I can with him at home now, while looking for a good ASD/gifted (neuro)psychologist/SLP in network.  

Btw the first book I mentioned at the beginning was “Bear your manners are showing,” not “Bear where are your manners.” 😓

 

[PeterPan]

58 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

So basically SKILL doesn’t go that deep to be useful and SGM stage chart is more of a framework? For example, I still would need the entire VV curriculum just to learn to describe character & setting (and hopefully actions) in details, Interception for feelings.

Or put another way, these are narrative language interventions, not interventions for EVERYTHING.

59 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

 I emailed MW again to ask what I’d miss out on if anything for not getting the SGM & expository manual.

I don't think you're missing any of SGM getting the ASD kit. You're getting 3 volumes, 3 sets of downloads,so you're getting SGM bolstered to work for ASD. For expository, Thememaker is overkill and not developmentally appropriate. You can use the free organizers from Core of the Core and what obviously corresponds to what he can do in narrative and be far enough along. I haven't bought Thememaker yet because it's more than I need.

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Sorry I know I’m obsessed with expository, because most of his school work was non-fiction. I also think narrative should help with his working memory. 

Oh sure, that's fine!It's totally appropriate to go to expository first. It may be a strength for him, and it will pair well with reading non-fiction.

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Kbutton: no he is not able to engage in a back-forth conversation or discussion of a story/movie at all. I am just working as much as I can with him at home now, while looking for a good ASD/gifted (neuro)psychologist/SLP in network.

If he can't have a reciprocal conversation, then you tell me why he's not diagnosed with ASD, kwim? Even to say well he can if he's into the topic and it's his topic of interest, well that's pretty telling, lol. A dc his age should be able to have a reciprocal conversation, make chit chat, repair conversation, all kinds of things. This is stuff that's on the ADOS to a degree. You should be getting better evals on the autism question sooner rather than later.

[Lecka]

I wanted to add some more ideas about checking for comprehension.  

This is a link about "dialogic reading."  I have read other things about this.  It's about different kinds of questions you can ask, from easier questions to harder questions.  I do this A LOT.  

https://iowareadingresearch.org/blog/dialogic-reading-having-a-conversation-about-books

There are other "active reading" ideas.  I don't have a link off the top of my head, but I try to encourage "active reading" all the time.  (This is all with me doing read-alouds.)  One thing is making predictions.  This is just -- "what do you think will happen next."  

Another thing that you can do is, say your answer and then say "what do you think?"  This can be really good to do.

You can go a few ways.  One way is -- provide some good vocabulary and sentence structure in what you say, that your child might then be able to use.  Providing a model is always good.  You can provide an easier model (on purpose-ly easier) or a harder model -- or mix of the two.  

Another way is -- say something that doesn't make sense, and see if your child realizes it doesn't make sense, or not.  If they go along with you, then that can be a sign they aren't comprehending -- or that they don't know enough about the topic ("associations" or "schema" for the topic) to know what would or wouldn't make sense.  This can be related to "setting" -- knowing what kinds of things to expect in a certain skiing.  If we say the setting is a beach -- we should expect beach-related things to happen.  Saying "I bet they drink hot chocolate" would not "go together" with that topic.  Things like that.  

A lot of "active reading" strategies are reading comprehension strategies -- so there are a lot of ideas from reading comprehension.

This all goes along with narration in its way ------ but it can be a lot easier than a narration.  

 

[Lecka]

This is about "think alouds" -- also for reading comprehension through read-alouds.  

http://www.ascd.org/publications/newsletters/education-update/feb18/vol60/num02/3-Steps-for-Think-Alouds.aspx

Something I also try to do is model asking "wondering questions" which goes along with making predictions.  "I wonder what will happen next" or "I wonder why that happened" or things like that.  

This is a link with more ideas for questions.  https://www.cabarrus.k12.nc.us/cms/lib/NC01910456/Centricity/Domain/9952/Leveled_Comprehension_Questions.pdf

I look around for inspiration -- it can be hard for me to come up with questions and especially if I am not getting a lot of feedback from my son!  When he gives feedback it is much easier.  But if he is not giving feedback -- that can mean he needs a lot modeled for him.  

 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

Thanks. I need to read the links you postesd. I have a few youtube videos about modeling read-aloud saved to watch later too. The strategy sounds easier said than done, especially when I had never been taught active reading myself growing up. 

[WoolC]

This has been a really interesting and helpful discussion.  I thought I would chime in with my experience as well.  A month or so ago I posted on the main boards that narration wasn’t working for my son who has an ASD2 diagnosis.  He has great vocabulary, but can’t do the back and forth dialogue or tell back a story like you’re describing above with your son.  PeterPan and Kbutton recommended the Autism kit from MindWing and I went ahead and purchased, though I admit I was skeptical of trying something else because everything I had tried before got us nowhere.  I’ve been working through the first of the three volumes with my son.  It’s introducing each part of the SGM with scripted activities, visual charts, etc.  My son loves the SGM manipulative and he has actually been able to give me descriptive narratives using the SGM tools.  I’ve been using it with picture books like PeterPan described.  Today, I was aiming for just the character, setting, and kick off of the three billy goats gruff, but he surprised me and gave me the goat’s feelings, plan, action sequence and resolution.  He loves the stamp set for working through narratives as well.

We’ll start with book 2 soon and I’m really excited that this is tackling the narrative/academic component while also addressing the theory of mind, social, autism stuff.  The first time I introduced the SGM tool to my son and was explaining the icons, when I got to the kick-off he said, “Oh, like yesterday.” He had had a meltdown the day before because of a change of plans and we were able to use the SGM to walk through the whole episode and he reflected on it!  I’m starting to incorporate, “Stop, think, make a plan,” when unexpected events happen in our day and it’s clicking.  This tool is powerful for addressing so much that I never expected. 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by WoolC
Typo

[Lecka]

That is awesome!!!!!!!!! Wow 🙂. 

[Lecka]

Onceuponafullmoon — I definitely find it easier said than done.  And I have seen some modeled for me by a therapist!  I have seen predictions modeled, I have seen making a “wacky guess” modeled, and I have seen “making a wondering question” modeled, like — seeing a therapist do a read-aloud with my son.  

But we moved and I haven’t had that therapist in about 2 + years now, and sometimes I’m like — am I doing a good progression?  But I think I am lol.  

It is not like it’s easy for the therapist either,  she’s working hard for engagement and to find the right level — so it’s not like she is having it be magically easy for her.  So that does make me feel like I’m doing good.  

I also tend to model a lot because I really don’t want to make reading a chore or something he doesn’t want to do, by asking too many questions. 

He does also make comments now on his own, which has been exciting!  But that took a lot of time to come.  

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Thanks. I need to read the links you postesd. I have a few youtube videos about modeling read-aloud saved to watch later too. The strategy sounds easier said than done, especially when I had never been taught active reading myself growing up. 

Is he your only child? Sometimes being able to practice on a child that is going to have more typical responses gives some confidence. Sometimes it just seems more high stakes with our kids that struggle--like we have to be perfect and get everything right immediately, etc. 

If you don't have another child to read to, (this is going to sound really goofy), maybe you can read to a pet or a stuffed animal until you feel confident--you'll just have to play both parts or get a friend to help out. 

I am confident that you will get the hang of things. 

[kbutton]

@WoolC, that's wonderful! 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

The strategy sounds easier said than done, especially when I had never been taught active reading myself growing up. 

Two things. One, we're asking them to slow down and do something maybe we do naturally. They're used to going fast, so slowing down and turning on comprehension (the reverse of hyperlexia) is hard. My ds finds it annoying even. So you've got that mental block of why should I bother. For my ds, I'm trying to show it is a pesky comprehension exercise but is actually improving his understanding of what we're reading, ie. that he's missing whole dimensions when we don't bother.

Two, I think you may end up narrowing it very tightly to what you're covering in your narrative work, SEL work, grammar work, etc. The whole POINT of those is to improve comprehension and whatever you're working on is what you'll ask questions about or expect to get applied in your reading. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, WoolC said:

 I’ve been using it with picture books like PeterPan described.  Today, I was aiming for just the character, setting, and kick off of the three billy goats gruff, but he surprised me and gave me the goat’s feelings, plan, action sequence and resolution.  He loves the stamp set for working through narratives as well.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but whatever you're doing is very right!! Good job and congratulations and wow!!!

2 hours ago, WoolC said:

when I got to the kick-off he said, “Oh, like yesterday.” He had had a meltdown the day before because of a change of plans and we were able to use the SGM to walk through the whole episode and he reflected on it!

Yes, yes, yes!!! This is EXACTLY what is supposed to happen!!!

2 hours ago, WoolC said:

This tool is powerful for addressing so much that I never expected.

I love it!! Yes, you're getting great results. And you're right that the carryover is to life, to self-advocacy, to problem-solving. It all intertwines.

Have you tried applying to expository yet? That will be your next step.

[Lecka]

I just pulled out Book 3 of the Mindwings autism collection called Facilitating Relationships.

In chapter 2 it has some boxes with questions you can ask while reading, or after reading.  

There are also graphic organizers that you can fill out, that would also be a way to check comprehension or model comprehension.  

I can’t say I have used the Mindwings materials a lot — because I have done other things and my son has done other things — so it’s like, some things he’s already done, and then other things are too hard.  

But the questions in Chapter 2 of Book 3 I think are really good.  It’s not that they are questions that aren’t the same or overlapping with other things, but they are laid out nicely.

There are also examples using real stories.

For the most part — you (I) can find some examples where people have written out questions they’ve used to model how to do these “dialogic reading” or “think-alouds” etc, and then you are on your own.  

But — there are book guides on Teachers Pay Teachers that can go along with books, and there are a lot for story books.  I haven’t ended up getting any yet.  But I have someone saved I think seems to have quality questions, from her samples.  I will link it.  

[Lecka]

The worst is to put a lot of effort in and say a really wacky thing and have them completely agree.  That is like “oh, dear.”  

My son did “fold and say stories” from Super Duper at one point — and he could re-use them because he kept missing things and missing things.  But he did improve.

I went to a program once that included data about answering wh questions and making inferences, and the bottom line was — with a ton of modeling, kids did make progress, but they would miss questions and miss questions and miss questions, without much signs of improvement, but then they made improvement eventually.  That was probably with inferences or wh questions (directly stated, not inferences) from a sentence or a paragraph, something short, so much simpler (usually — but sometimes harder because there’s fewer context clues) than reading something longer.  

[Lecka]

https://storiesbystorie.com/

This is a woman who has a Teachers Pay Teachers store and makes comprehension questions and graphic organizers and things to go along with children’s books.  I have just looked at samples but I think hers look very high quality, and she has a lot of children’s books.  

So there is pre-made stuff like this out there!

And then this, I think, would be kind-of easy to go along with Mindwings.  It would be easier than generating your own questions, maybe.  

I feel like I get good ideas from samples sometimes, and then I don’t usually fill out graphic organizers.  

I am not “really” trying for re-tells/summaries/narrations right now — but if I were — supported narrations after filling out a graphic organizer — would be a good way to go.  Mindwings does have graphic organizers and fill-in-the-blank things to do this with, too.  

 

[Lecka]

https://www.teacherspayteachers.com/Product/Do-Unto-Otters-Picture-Book-Companion-3951007#

So this is just an example — but it has a graphic organizer specific to this book, and has a question “as you read, think about how Mr. Rabbit wants the otters to treat him.”  That kind of thing is hard for me to come up with!!!!!!!!!!!

I do search book titles here and there to see if there are reading guides like this, where I can see sample questions.

I don’t usually pay and our printer is very cantankerous right now.... but I do look and get ideas.  

But I did not even know these book companions existed until maybe a year ago!  Someone here mentioned it to me.  

[WoolC]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Have you tried applying to expository yet? That will be your next step.

 

Not yet; I want to make sure he’s really got the descriptive narrative down cold.  He will still revert to say, pointing to a picture of the character rather than verbalizing occasionally.  I’m working around anxiety/mutism so just getting verbal responses is huge for us.  Expository has actually been easier for him in the past, so I think it will transfer well when we get there.  

I wanted to add, concerning the autism books, they step by step introduce each component.  I rushed through the setting with my son, thinking this was a pretty straightforward component, only to be frustrated that he couldn’t tell me typical things that happen at the beach (somewhere we go often).  I went back and read all of the background info on setting in the book 1 manual to find that, yes, setting is particularly difficult for autism kids, especially knowing what’s expected in particular settings, which makes perfect sense after thinking about it.  That’s where context blindness and unexpected behaviors in various settings comes in.  I say that to say, the books have been helpful for me, in identifying things that are difficult for him, and they’ve given exercises to help strengthen those skills.

 

[Lecka]

I have heard of a lot of benefits from fiction, for learning about social things.  I focus on that.  I really have heard that it’s very helpful and worthwhile.  

That is a great point about setting!  I have basically noticed the same thing, but I hadn’t put it together that way.  Like — I am aware of it in real life, and I am aware of it with reading, but I hadn’t tied it together that way.

I do feel like what comes up that he picks up on, or doesn’t pick up on, with reading, is a window into what he does or doesn’t pick up on in real life.  But — we are having an opportunity to dwell on it, instead of the moment passing by.  

 

[Lecka]

Just last night in a book, the older sister and mom put “magic rocks” in the little brother’s room, and told him if he cleans his room a fairy will come and turn it into money.  But really they go in and take the rock and leave a nickel.

I was really curious what he would think about that, and he thought it was a cool idea.

I asked him though, “do you think that’s a mean trick, or a cool idea?”  And he said “cool idea.”  Sometimes something like that will lead to talking more, or he will make a comment himself, but a lot of the time it’s “keep reading.”

But at this point — if he didn’t also see how it could be a mean trick, I think he would ask a question.

So — this is a lot of progress.

I used to have No, David https://www.amazon.com/No-David-Books-Shannon/dp/1338299581/ref=nodl_. And he mostly didn’t understand what was happening in the pictures.  

This is another book I used to have.  https://www.amazon.com/Best-Mouse-Cookie-You-Give/dp/069401270X/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_1/145-8180045-9164938?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=069401270X&pd_rd_r=ce908603-24d5-4210-b673-179b1ca364de&pd_rd_w=qOvaH&pd_rd_wg=ccbRs&pf_rd_p=6329818b-951a-4e75-9070-7e13e9f9f308&pf_rd_r=GDFD8NKYAWCMGANS42DA&psc=1&refRID=GDFD8NKYAWCMGANS42DA. 

There is a page where the picture shows the mouse taking a nap while the cookies bake, then there is smoke coming from the oven, then the cookies are thrown out. This is all shown in pictures.

I went over this many, many times and he would not connect that the cookies were burning.  

And he had been exposed to burned food 😉

Anyway those are two books I remember that had good pictures to talk about.  But that’s the kind of thing we would talk about. 

This is another book we talked about many times https://www.amazon.com/Take-Knight-Shelley-Moore-Thomas/dp/0525476954/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?keywords=good+knight+books&qid=1567600226&s=gateway&sprefix=good+knight&sr=8-6. It is about some little dragons who don’t ask questions and then make silly mistakes, and it also has a lot happening in the pictures.  

He also really liked trolls-under-bridges for a while and he liked the Three Billy Goats a lot then.  

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

You guys are so awesome with those think-aloud/read-aloud ideas.  I think I am going to order book 1 & 2 of the autism set (book 3 seems to be into social thinking more than language), the magnet and wooden stamp. My son resists slowing down to work on comprehension, but he is going to love stamping the components in the story. Questions though:

1. Do kids get to look at the book when they narrate the story back or they are supposed to remember it?

2. I found a chart that maps narrative to expository (stage 1 narrative to compare & contrast, stage 2 narrative to list & sequence, etc.) Do the books have more expansion/details on that?

[Lecka]

Honestly I would pick books 1 and 3.  Book 3 is really good.  

I don’t get a lot out of book 2.  

To each their own, though!

Do you think he can already tell a “six second story” or whatever?  That is in book 3.  My son could already do that from other therapy, so I personally haven’t used it.  But it looks really good.  

It does say social; but it is all very connected to narrations and reading comprehension.  

I thought the same thing from the samples I could see, about book 3, but it is very good now that I have gotten it.  

Just to say — if you did pick two, I would pick one and three and not one and two.  

But whatever you think 🙂

 

 

[Lecka]

Just to be clear — a “six second story” IS a narration so that whole section would be targeting narrating.  

It is a “personal narrative” instead of narrating events from a book, but the two are very tied together.

 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, WoolC said:

He will still revert to say, pointing to a picture of the character rather than verbalizing occasionally.  I’m working around anxiety/mutism so just getting verbal responses is huge for us.

That's actually a good reason to move into expository. Using something preferred might lower his stress. Is it possible when he was seeming to do big narratives before for non-fiction that he was scripting? 

Also you can shake up the type of non-fiction to make it more challenging or more engaging. The Five Kinds of Nonfiction - Melissa Stewarthttps://www.melissa-stewart.com › 5_Kinds_of_Nonfiction_SLJ_May_2018  Or go the opposite direction and use something kind of eccentric he knows NOTHING ABOUT, so he can't script, lol. So like I have these weird little readers (Step Up, blah blah) that have articles on unusual animals, things my ds doesn't already know.

I don't think pointing is all bad. You could even get him LAMP or a more sophisticated AAC and see what happens. People who speak have this bias, like speaking is where it's at, but really people with these challenges find their language drops and they need to go to non-verbal methods, just because. Chloe Rothschild, for instance, if you hear her speak with Kelly Mahler, will use verbal and then go to AAC within a session. My dd's language drops when she's tired, and she goes to texting. So I agree on the mutism and anxiety and lowering anxiety, but he might also want some proficiency so he has all the options on the table in the moment. What we really care is that they're communicating, not what way it comes out. And we're like no, no I really want it to come out as speech! But it's ok for it to come out other ways. Tools are good, choices are good. And within these writing exercises might be a good time to practice that.

So then I'll say that, and reality was when we gave my ds LAMP a year ago, he couldn't use it. He had NO CLUE what he was looking at. An SLP tried to use it with him, and it became very clear that he just flat didn't have the language to use it. Remember, you actually have to have some meaning for those words to decide to select and order them. Or I suppose you could script with LAMP, but wow that would be astonishing. 

So for my ds, trying AAC showed the deeper language deficits. We finally got language testing that verified it. But that was the final straw for us, like no matter how he sounds when he's talking in his area of interest, reality is there are some deep, deep deficits going on here.

[PeterPan]

21 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

1. Do kids get to look at the book when they narrate the story back or they are supposed to remember it?

The supports or prompts are faded. You'll bring the supports as high as they need to be at first (pictures, braidy/beads, prompts, pictures from the book, etc.) and fade. There's never an invalid method, just the realization of our goal, that we want to see the prompts faded eventually so he's doing it in real life. 

That to me is what we mean with generalization and getting it applied to life. There's no rush, but it's just the goal eventually. What we start doing with super high supports, we'd like to see become naturalized to life, where they're able to do it at that stage without the supports, independently, confidently, naturally. 

So like your worst case scenario would be he's trying to tell you what happened when he had a horrible situation, a problem. (he's hurt, whatever) That would be your most stressful, most challenging application, kwim? So there's that continuum from a brief model with picture supports and all the tools in front of him ALL THE WAY to I can do it in life when I'm really stressed and my emotions are up. 

That kinda takes a while, lol. 

21 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

2. I found a chart that maps narrative to expository (stage 1 narrative to compare & contrast, stage 2 narrative to list & sequence, etc.) Do the books have more expansion/details on that?

See Lecka is your woman on that. I need to drag out my stuff. I have no clue why my ds has been slower on the draw than some people's kids, but we've been kinda parked, letting it gel, getting it into real life. I will say that buying volume 1-3 would be helpful to you. You need to read ahead and let concepts gel in your mind. There might be things you could start teaching now, seeds you could plant, concepts you could bring down into your work with him as you see openings. This is not necessarily a sequential thing, even though there's a developmental progression. Like it's ok to start planting seeds now as you see openings.

The book I'm curious about is Core of the Core. In reality, Thememaker is what you're asking about. In the past they had run really great sales over the holidays and they didn't this year, don't know why. Maybe I missed them? So you could hope for a sale or go ahead and get Thememaker or something, sure. But you're talking pretty tight levels here. It's the downloads where the money is for me, and my *impression* is that the report organizer I've linked you in the past is the snazziest thing out of their Core of the Core. It's why I didn't buy it. But I'll bet the Thememaker downloads are terrific. Kbutton would know.

I'll drag out my 1-3 set if I must. I'm sort of in la la land here waiting for thyroid labs so we can up my meds. I think ds is having headaches from his eyes, so we just scheduled that. I think we might cook today, lol. The Cooking to Learn set is wonderful, weaving in LA and life skills. It has really boosted the confidence of my ds. He even made french toast!!

Edited September 4, 2019 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

About a personal narrative or narrating a book — they are very similar.  One is like answering “what did you do today.”  One is like answering “what did the character in the book do today.”  

That is being pretty generic — but the two things really do go together and reinforce each other.  

[PeterPan]

You're going to be looking for the elements, wherever they're applied. So you know your stage 1 elements, and they're appearing in his narratives across life, a skill generalized and able to be done without prompts, or they need more work. 

And there's a continuum as the dc grows in his ability to do the stage 1. A 7 yo does not have to describe setting like a 15 yo budding author, kwim? The dc will grow. My ds has grown. So I'm looking for *is it there* and then *is it close to the level it should be* given his level of language development. 

You make your own judgment call on when to add in the next components and go to that next stage. I think it's ok to move on if the element is in the narrative and it's relative close to the appropriate language expectation. It's ok to let that continue to develop as the dc develops. But if there's a big gap, like the dc is saying single words for the setting and we'd like to see a full sentence, we might compromise in the middle. So its just your judgment on when to move forward and when to stay a while and nurture that more. The graphic organizers and downloads from the ASD kit help you see by quantifying what could be happening and letting you see ok if we work on this another week, we'll get more, or no we've hit the limit for what he can get out with his current language development.

These are things you can hit again later with work on expansion. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

I haven’t looked into anything about expanding to expository. 

For using a prompt — always the way promots work is that you start with more prompts and then gradually move to less prompts.

A lot of prompts can be used with reading a story and wanting to narrate it.  

This can be anything from:  looking at the pictures;  picking out just a few main pictures;  telling what is happening in just ONE picture — this can require a lot of inferences!!!!!!

Using a graphic organizer — something where you would fill out beginning/middle/end, or story grammar elements (like character, setting, kick-off, etc) and then being able to look back at that when making the narration.

Using the Braidy or Story Grammar Markers as a manipulative to remind (provide a prompt) of what the parts are.

Talking and providing a model.... re-reading the same book and going back over the same thing as before where before you provided a model.....

All these kinds of things are prompts and you can use a variety and — do whatever it works to go from “my child can’t do it” to “here is the level where they can do it.”  

 

[Lecka]

There is a lot of stuff out there for kids narrating wordless picture books, too.  You can google and find lists of wordless picture books and ideas for using them.  You can use a search term of “speech therapy” with things and find ideas a lot of the time.  

[Lecka]

I have always had some guidance for what kinds of things to be looking at, from knowing my son’s level, from him having speech therapy or a teacher or ABA therapy and having them say what level they think is good for him. 

So I have never tried to figure out the level out of nowhere.

If you are noticing “problem with narrating” it is really wide open what a good level would be, because there is a lot that could come before it.  So there’s a lot of “he can do this, but he can’t do that,” to find what the right level is.  

But when you try things you can see how he does and then that provides information.  

My son started special needs pre-school and ABA therapy when he was 4, he also had a lot of issues beyond just narrating.  A lot of issues.  We needed help!  So — that was our situation.  So I have never “really” been without some “narrowing it down” already done for me.  

[Lecka]

I just remembered this but I have heard a book called “Nurturing Narratives” mentioned here, and I have looked at a book about “book talks” I will link them.

 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

The Five Kinds of Nonfiction - Melissa Stewarthttps://www.melissa-stewart.com › 5_Kinds_of_Nonfiction_SLJ_May_2018

Ooo I need to check this out. With gifted and faster learner kids, it's hard to find nonfiction with vocabulary within their level and with new background knowledge they cannot script/guess.

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

The book I'm curious about is Core of the Core. In reality, Thememaker is what you're asking about

I was really curious about that book too, after reading many blog posts on it. But the samples make me think like you, whether their chart (which I can buy separately) is the best they have.

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

In the past they had run really great sales over the holidays and they didn't this year, don't know why. Maybe I missed them? So you could hope for a sale or go ahead

They had 50% sales last Christmas. Part of me want to wait for the sales (and continue to read the blog/watch videos) but part is so impulsed to get them all now lol.

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Do you think he can already tell a “six second story” or whatever?  That is in book 3.  My son could already do that from other therapy, so I personally haven’t used it.  But it looks really good.  

It does say social; but it is all very connected to narrations and reading comprehension.

He can't. I have to wait for Kbutton for her view on book 2 then. It seems everyone here has outside therapies when I don't. I keep running in circle and couldn't even find a SLP who would do the tests I want. Sure I can run the test myself at home, but then I'm stuck with finding ways to help with those missing skills as well. I may need all three books then.

11 hours ago, Lecka said:

But I did not even know these book companions existed until maybe a year ago!  Someone here mentioned it to me.

Wow thanks for letting me know.

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

I have heard of a lot of benefits from fiction, for learning about social things

I did fables with him yesterday and I see it helps with both narrative and social/moral lessons.

12 hours ago, Lecka said:

I went to a program once that included data about answering wh questions and making inferences

Do you mind telling me what program is that? Sounds very interesting.

Edited September 4, 2019 by OnceUponAFullMoon

[Lecka]

https://www.socialthinking.com/Products/nurturing-narratives-language-intervention

Nurturing Narratives

https://www.socialthinking.com/Products/build-social-thinking-reading-comprehension-through-book-chats

I Get It! .... Book Chats

For these two the Nurturing Narratives looks like it’s a lower level and I Get It! looks like it’s at a higher level.  

[Lecka]

The program I went to was an autism workshop and one of the speakers was a speech therapy professor who had done a research study about teaching two kinds of questions to students with autism, either questions where the answer was directly stated or questions where an inference was needed.  This could be a pretty easy inference sometime — getting into “anything not directly stated” and not like “we’re reading literature.”  But she was showing how many times they would go over things but then seeing progress.  The main point was just “don’t give up.”  

We have been really fortunate with services.  Really, really fortunate.  

My son was diagnosed with autism almost 7 years ago now, too, so I have had a lot of time to hear about different things.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Lecka

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I was really curious about that book too, after reading many blog posts on it. But the samples make me think like you, whether their chart (which I can buy separately) is the best they have.

I don't have much time to respond right now, but I saw that there are some questions about Thememaker, and today was a tutor day, so I brought home everything I have except for this book: https://mindwingconcepts.com/collections/new/products/deepening-discourse-and-thought-3

The tutor really likes that book for the big picture of where the tool is going as well as mapping the narrative and expository together. It also has useful sheets for tracking data. 

I have Thememaker, CTT book, and the autism book that has the CTT stuff. I will try to look it over in the next couple of days.

In general, Thememaker is parallel to the main story grammar book, but it's for older kids. The graphic organizers transition to more lines and a little more grown up look. They might have more in depth expository, but I don't have the main story grammar book, so I am not sure. But that's the gist I got from the author when I called Mindwing Concepts. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Ooo I need to check this out. With gifted and faster learner kids, it's hard to find nonfiction with vocabulary within their level and with new background knowledge they cannot script/guess.

Yup, so it's realizing the genres and why a different genre might kind of merge you goals then also looking that the LEXILE HUB to find books with the ideal lexile. Lexile drives it for my ds. Scads of great books, easily found, on just the right level. https://hub.lexile.com/find-a-book/search

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Part of me want to wait for the sales (and continue to read the blog/watch videos) but part is so impulsed to get them all now lol.

Oh I get it. At least they're a worthy cause.

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I may need all three books then.

You assuredly will.

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Sure I can run the test myself at home, but then I'm stuck with finding ways to help with those missing skills as well.

Aren't you already? ;)

Look, the SLPs are not learning this stuff in school. They get trained in a broad variety of things, and they might or might not have gotten an introduction to narrative language intervention. I've seen some SLP profs talk about trying to do it with their students. You're talking about very custom intricate work. Typically this happens in the ps IEP process through a TEAM. So the intervention specialist tackles part, the SLP tackles part, even the OT tackles part, and everybody all day long is working parts, sort of drip drip. 

So you're one person trying to wrap your brain around it and do it in EVERYTHING, which is why it's overwhelming. But guaranteed, the frequency of SLPs in the ps doing the level of intervention your ds may need is low. My ds' IEP goals are not impressive. It's very clear with the low amount of service he's assigned in his IEP (which is generous for our district, lots of Title this and that funding, blah blah), that he would NEVER get the amount of intervention he needs. It's pipe dreams. Nobody has the funds and time to do what it really takes. They do something, what they can, and that's good enough. 

I also don't know that even with unlimited time and energy I could bust through some of these things. I'm just no longer convinced. Like I can sit around and stew and feel guilty and say I'm clearly not doing it good enough, but I know walls when I'm hitting them. 

So if it can be done, your best bet is doing it yourself. Unless you have very generous funding and like to live in offices and want to be the recipient of the learning curve of your SLP, who will be learning it just like you. It's you or her or both. 

Do not underestimate the power of the Mom. Just saying.

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I'm stuck

Ok, I'm gonna wax sentimental for one second. With my dd I felt somewhat stuck and for a while with my ds I felt stuck. So I get that. Right now though, where I am with a dc in college, I consider it a privilege to be home with him and trying to do things for him. Even if I fail. I don't consider it a privilege to get hit. That just sucks. But to be with him and try to work with him and try to win on some things that I KNOW would not get hit in the placement he would have to be in (because I've been in the autism schools, because he'd have behaviors, because the SLPs don't know the stuff, because his needs are complex). 

It's a privilege and you're not stuck. If you feel stuck, change that. Like go find the school, find the placement, and know you're not stuck. Just tell your significant other flat out, make my life good or you're stuck paying the bills for that because I'm not stuck. And if you want to be there with him, enjoy it. And if it's over and you need a break, then send the kid there. 

Autism sucks. Like my favorite people are autism, but it's a pretty hard, low support for parents, draining kind of situation. I think protecting your mental health is good. You can be very honest with yourself about your needs and make changes. I travel now. I take ds and I'm like let's go, scrounge the money, find it, we're going out the door. I need to not be stuck. I'm gonna go sit on a cruise ship again, because it was epiphanal for me and because they'll clean up after my ds and feed him. I kid you not. These people will clean up wet beds, torn up rooms, anything, lol. Best Vacation Ever. Join me! Come take a cruise. Don't be stuck. You have to recharge till you feel like you can do it or have the resources and are ok.

Whatever, that's just me. But seriously, you can cruise with me. Not in the same room, but you could cruise with me. We could hang in the hot tubs and eat triple deserts till we pop. Ds plays in the kid area and LOVES it.

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Do you mind telling me what program is that? Sounds very interesting.

Just jumping in here. I used the Super Duper Flip/Fold wh-questions book Lecka mentioned. It's ok, got us a little ground. Wh questions are the perpetual issue and a known gig with autism. Even if you've worked on them, you probably need to work on them more. They're just a known issue to keep working on. I haven't really made data on it or catalogued or anything, but my suspicion is they cycle around as an issue as the complexity of the syntax increases. So 

-what color is it?

develops into 

-what time is the party in the barn across the street?

-what day are you going to the game with Daddy?

 kwim?

So as you add more syntax, they're an issue to revisit to make sure he's both comprehending and expressing using the new level of syntax.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

Nurturing Narratives

It's in my stash. The idea is nice but the implementation was funky. I skimmed it and went back to SGM/ASD thought, lol. 

I think partly you have a building of ideas, kwim? Like when NN was IT, then it was raising the awareness that led to development of other programs. But I could see if it's distinctive or adds anything. Jenn could say.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

For using a prompt — always the way promots work is that you start with more prompts and then gradually move to less prompts.

Bingo. And for op, the thing to realize is this is an autism thing to need to be so intentional about bringing up the support and fading. With a more NT kid, it would just happen pretty naturally. But with our kids, it becomes more intentional, where we're actually keeping track of the level of support and slowly fading it. 

[Storygirl]

I'm just going to chime in to say that I'm so glad that you guys have these materials to work with. I really could have used them five or six years ago, when we were homeschooling, and I was trying to dig through trying to help DS with comprehension, figuring things out on my own. Even though it seems overwhelming, the fact that these resources are out there is awesome!

DS15 could still benefit from them, I am sure. But we are at a point where it's not workable for me to teach him myself, so he is in school, and afterschooling him is not an option.

But I love hearing about how these things are helping! I may end up buying a set of materials just for me to read, anyway.

I probably should send a link to MindWings to our school SLP and special education coordinator. I need to convince them that working specifically on narrative  language is important to academic success and not something "extra" that I need to go outside the school to get help with. I got the "remember, we only target things needed for classroom success" response to an initial query, but I can keep bringing it up.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

I need to convince them that working specifically on narrative  language is important to academic success and not something "extra" that I need to go outside the school to get help with. I got the "remember, we only target things needed for classroom success" response to an initial query, but I can keep bringing it up.

There's gobs of info on why narrative language is important to academics, mercy.

https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/revised-narrative-assessments-in-speech-language-pathology/

[WoolC]

Ok, I pulled out Book 2 of the Autism collection.  In the back of the book it has pictures of the different products grouped by age and it has ThemeMaker listed as middle school & high school.  

Chapter 13 (carrying over from the first 12 chapters in book 1) Critical Thinking Triangle

This section walks you through introducing the CTT in depth, flip book graphics, scripted lessons, activities with the printable graphic organizers.  Lots of depth here on feelings, connecting the kick-off, extended practice activities, narrative text cubes, complete episode maps.  Lots of good stuff for the CTT appropriate to the age level.  

Chapter 14  Perspective Taking 

Good background info/research on why perspective taking is so important, what our students need to know that they might not be getting naturally, and how to use the SGM to address this.  Missing links in the perspective taking chain include feelings, thinking verbs, and plans (all represented visually in the CTT).  Discusses Theory of Mind and Sentence Complementation, an activity for perspective taking, graphic organizers, flip charts with scripted lesson on Thinking & Saying.  Example lessons, suggested children’s books for building the CTT with kids with brief outlines of each book.  Children’s books to work specifically on feelings, thinking verbs, and the plan.  Looking at specific life experience using the CTT and problem solving different perspectives.

 

Chapter 15 Pragmatics The Social Use of Language 

General info on pragmatics, using the CTT structure to talk about body language, activity: Do an observation of a situation with graphic organizers, lesson samples, Activity: connecting pragmatics and story grammar including probe cards, flip chart graphic and scripted lesson on body language

Appendix A  Maps for complex sentence development, graphic organizers that are also included as downloads

Appendix B Annotations on Selected Books focusing on feelings

 

That’s it for book 2.  No expository, but it’s going really in depth on the CTT which if you have that piece, I think you could transfer to expository using the Core of the Core printable that PeterPan linked.  I’m using my iPad to type this up, so I apologize for my lack of formatting.  Hope that helps and I’m happy to answer any other questions about the books if you have them!

[WoolC]

5 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

He can't. I have to wait for Kbutton for her view on book 2 then. It seems everyone here has outside therapies when I don't. I keep running in circle and couldn't even find a SLP who would do the tests I want. Sure I can run the test myself at home, but then I'm stuck with finding ways to help with those missing skills as well. I may need all three books then

 

We don’t have outside therapies either (for our own complicated reasons).  I totally get how overwhelming it all is.  You’re getting a good head start on this at age 7.  I’ve been floundering and hitting my head against a wall since my ds was 6 on narration (he’s now 10).  I so wish we had these tools then.  Pick one thing, one tool, and wrap your head around it, incorporate it, and go from there.  You don’t have to solve it all today.  Just tackle what you can, when you can.  Prioritize and don’t worry about the rest for now!  You’ve totally got this!

Edited September 4, 2019 by WoolC

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

I probably should send a link to MindWings to our school SLP and special education coordinator. I need to convince them that working specifically on narrative  language is important to academic success and not something "extra" that I need to go outside the school to get help with. I got the "remember, we only target things needed for classroom success" response to an initial query, but I can keep bringing it up.

They have a lot on their website showing the links between their products and various tasks. The Deepening Discourse book--oh, my. It's totally school-friendly. We are taking our books to my son's IEP meeting. We told them we'd be using them. Now, I'm going to tell them they should, lol! Nicely. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

The Deepening Discourse book

Hey,  you got this? Tell us more! I missed the webinar on it, so I don't even know the jist.