SGM and SKILL for Narrative

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

We have been using the Rothstein 100% Vocabulary Primary book at the same time as IdeaChain and we like it so far. I also have VV stories and workbook (no manual) to use after my son finishes IdeaChain.

After reading many Mindwing SGM blog posts, I think it would definitely help him on narrative, but I may need a manual, something open & go with scripted lessons like IdeaChain. I'd prefer it to tell me what children literature to use, then lay out step-by-step lessons, progressing from narrative stage 1 through 7 with expository text structures integrated in there somehow. Would SGM teacher's manual (then ThemeMaker manual later) give me all I need? Do the manuals have all the necessary printable maps/charts/forms? I already made my own SGM teacher manipulative. What about the Braidy manual, critical thinking in action set, or the three Autism book set? Oh I also found the SKILL book mentioned in the Narrative thread, which is more open & go/scripted, but not as details on each stage of narrative. So, if I get the SKILL book instead, what are the "must have" I need to get from Mindwing?

Background: my 7-year old son is tested in school at 3rd grade level decoding/listening/comprehension at 1st grade. He's definitely good at decoding and has high vocabulary understanding. His casual speech is fine. But he is not capable of retelling/narrating anything he read/experienced/heard. Basically he knows the words but unable to remember to use them to describe things  (even a simple picture in VV/IdeaChain.) When I modeled the SGM, he would just imitate word-by-word what I said or would answer in a few words to "what is the character, what is setting" instead of in complete sentences. His pediatricians & psychologists didn't think he has autism because he is too social/extrovert/alert/smart. He does match everything about Hyperlexia. I finally found someone who could do the TNL but not the SPELT.

 

[mamashark]

I don't have SKILL, but I have MW Braidy... There are lots of scripted lesson ideas with specific books to use, but I find the Braidy Manual disorganized - not exactly what I prefer in an open and go format. I've spent a lot of time reading and pondering and fitting the ideas together in my head and am mixing them into the stuff I have on Social Thinking, which is also not very open and go, lol.

I might be willing to splurge on SKILL if it's truly that open and go - but I can't seem to find any good samples of the materials.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

His pediatricians & psychologists didn't think he has autism because he is too social/extrovert/alert/smart. He does match everything about Hyperlexia.

That's one way to get a misdiagnosis, lol.

So find a new psychologist who has more brains and get it diagnosed if it's there. Plenty of extrovert people on the spectrum out there. Plenty of socially motivated people on the spectrum out there. Plenty of non-catatonic people on the spectrum out there. Plenty of "smart" people on the spectrum out there.

I mean, that's just so stupid it's offensive. You definitely need better psychs. Go to an autism school, get the ADOS, get more thorough evals.

If the SLP doesn't own the SPELT, buy it and run it yourself. You have NO CLUE if your intervention has been adequate or whether you've done enough till you do that. See if the SLP can *borrow* a copy of the SPELT. Why pay money to someone who isn't making happen what needs to happen? Don't do it. You can run these tests yourself, so buy them and run them if the SLP is going to stand in the way. The money you spend on her could have been spent on buying it and running it yourself. 

And the irony is, the SPELT doesn't kick out any breakdowns. The TNL kicks out very little for subscores, but the SPELT kicks out NOTHING. This totally, totally pisses me off, because it means the ONLY PERSON who has any clue what happened in the testing was the person who administered the test. And the idiot SLP who doesn't own it and doesn't think she needs to run it is the person who isn't knowledgeable enough to do the breakdowns and tell you what happened in the testing. I'm really, really irate now because the last SLP I used for the SPELT supposedly specialized in expressive language and she could tell me NOTHING afterwards. Zero. Zilcho. SO, SO, SO upset about that.

So I'm serious saying buy it yourself, run it yourself. If you want to know what it's showing and what needs intervention yet, do it yourself.

I also just canned a ton of hot peppers and am tired and grouchy.

https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/ina-garten/mocha-chocolate-icebox-cake-recipe-1923360  So now I'm eating this and I'm going to keep eating till I'm a nicer person. 

So I have SKILL Narrative by the Gillams and the ASD 3 book set from SGM. I agree with the summary that SGM is conceptual, loosely scripted, with graphic organizers, etc. to apply to whatever you want to use. SKILL is highly scripted, has been used in research students (ie. can be assigned to college students, whatever to teach, idiot-proof), and is self-contained, with pictures, everything you need except a couple picture books at a later point.

Now we're going to get in the weeds. 

https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology If you go to this link and look at the charts, you'll see a developmental sequence for narrative. Moreau didn't make the idea up but got it from the research of some other big name people like Ukrainetz. So if you google Ukrainetz, development of narrative, that kind of thing, you'll find research, chapters in books, etc. It's a known gig. And back channel, on some SLP groups, professors are quietly lamenting that there isn't an article that really tightly pulls all this together and explains everything for SLPs who missed the boat and don't know, students they're teaching, etc. So if you were like I want it in plain english and I don't want it to be a sales pitch or tied to a system, the article discussing it isn't out there like it needs to be. Means you have to pull it together yourself and wrap your brain around it.

More weeds, because you've got little gold fish and minnows and murky lake water and junk of language to deal with. If you look hard at the developmental chart I linked, you'll see that vocabulary, syntax, semantics, LANGUAGE JUNK drives the MEANING that is required to make the narratives. So for instance it's wicked hard to describe a setting if you aren't yet using adjectives in your everyday speech, kwim? Or how do you communicate actions if you're not yet using verbs in original speech? 

So with each stage of narrative development, we have LANGUAGE pieces we want to see happening. SKILL highlights this some, but I particularly like the stages pages (haha) that MW puts in their materials. I have them printed out and in page protectors in a notebook, integrated into my SKILL stuff, to organize what we're doing.

So now for an important difference. There are subtle differences that pissy people could complain over, but they aren't MAJOR. The biggest question you have to ponder is whether you want to teach through the developmental stages, one stage at a time, or if you want to go ALL THE WAY. SKILL is trying to front load, then slow down, but it's an all the way approach. Moreau's MW materials are set up to allow you to do it either way, but she's giving you the handouts, if you get the ASD set (which you should) to be able to teach it in stages, going through each step.

It is my non-professional opinion that there are children for whom all upfront is fine. They have no developmental delays, will pick up the clue phone quickly, and it's FINE. And then there are kids like mine. In addition to language issues, he just flat functions multiple years behind, probably 2-3. I want his narratives to sound *natural* and I want them to generalize. So I concluded (and this is what Moreau said to do when we chatted on the phone) that I would teach the stage, get it going till it was natural and generalized and showing up in life, then do the next stage. Rinse and repeat. That's a really tedious way of doing things, not flashy, but it's what makes me most confident that we'll get to our goals. 

What I'm finding is the length and quality of ds' narrations for a stage improves as we go slowly like this and give him time to take the ideas in. He's going from really brief sentences to now extended conversations. But when you look at the components of his narrative, they're still the same.

So what holds my ds back from proceeding faster is not having the language and SEL pieces to do the next stages. I see no benefit to forcing forward components that he can do, resulting in unnatural combinations that aren't even normal. I'd rather we just stop, build the pieces to do the next stage, and actually do the stage.

I *like* SKILL for introducing concepts, but reality is the ASD kit from SGM gives you way more and gets you way farther.

The dc won't be ready for Thememaker for quite a while. The chart at the link I gave you will show you how expository structures from from the narrative structures at each stage. Get the expository/narrative structures magnets if you wish to go with your kit. There are tons of free pages, graphic organizers, etc on the blog for SGM. You won't need anything more for quite a while. https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/46846209-expository-my-research-cut-and-fold-booklet?_pos=10&_sid=78dbe4a60&_ss=r

Remember, a lot of your practice is literally just narrating, a la WTM. It's just that SGM is giving you explicit instruction in the components so they can finally DO it. But really, all you need to apply is a pile of picture books, non-fiction, whatever.

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I may need a manual, something open & go with scripted lessons.

I'd prefer it to tell me what children literature to use, then lay out step-by-step lessons, progressing from narrative stage 1 through 7 with expository text structures integrated in there somehow. Would SGM teacher's manual (then ThemeMaker manual later) give me all I need?

Do the manuals have all the necessary printable maps/charts/forms?

critical thinking in action set, or the three Autism book set? 

As Peter Pan said, SGM is not scripted. Have you considered doing the training? You are going to be in this for the long haul (vs. my situation where I am having others implement it but know what's going on, why it works, what needs more work, etc.), and if I were considering this with a child that age, I would do it. Seriously. 

In my dreams, the blog would get organized and easier to use so that the lesson plans and such that are there would be easy to find, lol! But sometimes, there are gold nuggets in the blog that are just as good as getting something scripted.

The manuals do have the necessary printables and charts, but sometimes you want the kits with wipe-able stuff too. Any form that exists in the book can be copied (they have filled in examples AND blank printables), and they also have a code you can use to get them on .pdf. It's very flexible that way.

The critical thinking materials come in later, but if you get them, they are definitely helpful--the book has a lot of tips. There is a webinar on the CTT. If you can find it, it's well worth your time.

I would suggest getting the three book autism set with your situation. We were starting later with some foundation in place but glitches. We bypassed the set, but we ended up needing the middle book for the CTT stuff (along with the CTT set). It was crucial, and in our case, we have good receptive language, just not expressive/narrative. With hyperlexia going on, you need more stuff {ETA: the basic stuff like the whole set of three, not just the middle one.}. These books will break it all down, and they have a ton of activities. I also think that from what I've seen that they will pair really well with Social Thinking activities, and they might say as much. {ETA: the Social Thinking materials are going to add a dimension of "real life" problem-solving socially to the mix that will help a lot when you get into stories.}

I think if you start with the autism books and fiddle with them, you'll find you have a lot to chew on, but you have a lot of tools to see where things are working or not. Then you can bring in social thinking stuff, which you will absolutely need if you are going to tackle the Critical Thinking Triangle. 

The materials often have book suggestions, but it's not as cut and dry as you probably want. Again, I think learning to use it flexibly via their training is a good idea for you with the age and stage you're at.

Quote

Background: my 7-year old son is tested in school at 3rd grade level decoding/listening/comprehension at 1st grade. He's definitely good at decoding and has high vocabulary understanding. His casual speech is fine. But he is not capable of retelling/narrating anything he read/experienced/heard. Basically he knows the words but unable to remember to use them to describe things  (even a simple picture in VV/IdeaChain.) When I modeled the SGM, he would just imitate word-by-word what I said or would answer in a few words to "what is the character, what is setting" instead of in complete sentences. His pediatricians & psychologists didn't think he has autism because he is too social/extrovert/alert/smart. He does match everything about Hyperlexia. I finally found someone who could do the TNL but not the SPELT.

So, I have not researched to find out if hyperlexia really occurs much in isolation vs. always with some other language disorder, autism, intellectual disability, etc. but it seems more like a symptom to me than a diagnosis. Your son is lacking a central organizing principle for how to tell back a narrative. From there, you can have other glitches with the parts and pieces OR how the parts and pieces fit at yet another level (language structures). 

Regarding the bolded, without some SERIOUS, THOUGHTFUL, and COMPELLING evidence to back up that statement, it's a crock. There are SO MANY facets to social stuff that don't effect social motivation, alertness, orientation toward others, etc. that there is plenty left to be problematic and get a child to an autism diagnosis. Being social and being socially competent are not the same, and while some kids with autism aren't social, that's not a requirement. Some kids GET more social if they are given tools (but not always). Ugh. It's a ridiculous thing to say in 2019. You should meet my son--he's the poster child for alert, smart, social, etc. He literally gets down in the dumps if he isn't doing enough meaningful work that translates into making life better for another human, but yet he has autism and profound language struggles (which are being addressed very well by these tools!). There are entire categories of social stuff that flies right by him (thankfully mostly stuff like being too literal), and it sometimes gets him into trouble, but there are whole situations where he can anticipate and meet needs without another person stating that they have a need--he just sees it and fills it happily and for the joy of being helpful and kind (and competent, lol--it's probably one of his highest values). 

Those professionals must have a sorry, miserable existence if they see kids day in and day out and can't figure out that many people with autism possess traits consistent with highly social, extroverted, alert, smart, or even all of the above. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by kbutton

[kbutton]

We also have this set: https://mindwingconcepts.com/products/deepening-discourse-and-thought-3   You might not be able to use it with your son, but if you are a big picture person, it's helpful.

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

Yeah you would have though in 2019 people would no longer say things like "how does he need help if he is gifted," "how does he have speech problems when he talks," "he's so smart, so if he doesn't know the answers, he must not take it seriously, or if he says inappropriate things, he must be rude/spoiled," etc. I'm so tired of judgement. The poor kid wasn't able to explain his side of the story when people complained about him. He is social, but his pragmatic/social communication skills need lots of work. I have the social thinking books (Superflex, Zones,) but like Mamashark said, it is not open & go either lol.

I want preload lesson like this post https://mindwingconcepts.com/blogs/news/spiders-5-books-resources-and-activities, but more organized in a book with more stories to do and at lower level. These spider stories are beyond my son's level. I wish MindWing would let me see better samples of the ASD set. SKILL sent me two page samples of character & setting and I like them. I just don't know how they do putting all those grammar structure pieces together in narrative and in expository. Does the ASD set have regular children literature or just social thinking?

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by OnceUponAFullMoon

[PeterPan]

Well now you understand why own both.

Reality is, you're asking for the moon. The instruction has to be custom because you're having to adjust for language comprehension. The instruction on the specific pieces is so a nothing, easy peasy. The real challenge is picking books, etc. to use for the narratives that are at a level he can comprehend. That's why I'm so OCD about lexile levels, because they work for my ds. Find the lexile level your ds can narrate from, and you may also find that the language level is fitting right where he is. The language and lexile and narrative expectations go together. You're probably going to have to back way up to simple picture books, which is why it CAN'T BE SCRIPTED.

I like SKILL, but I just use it like 10 minutes every so often, then I go right back to MW/SGM. If you don't get the SGM ASD kit, you'll kick yourself. 

Don't overthink the expository. Once you wrap your brain around narrative language development, the expository is obvious. You're seeing it on the methodology page and you don't even know what you're seeing. It's all right there. The expository stages pair up to the narrative. You teach to a narrative stage then you do the expository that corresponds.

[PeterPan]

https://hub.lexile.com/find-a-book/book-results  Lexile search engine to find books at your ds' level of language comprehension. This is the bomb.

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Does the ASD set have regular children literature or just social thinking?

You don't need a list of literature or complete lessons. You have to pick literature that fits your ds' language level, and you have to apply the concepts to the books. This is not a fast process.

I find the data on the results for SKILL to be poor. We're not looking for just *progress* but actual, complete, methodical intervention. That's why I think it's ok to disagree with SKILL and say no, I want to teach to the developmental stages.

So sure, I like SKILL. What you're seeing is what it's like. But you'll still want the SGM ASD kit. Unless you want to teach straight through SKILL. But their data shows crappy incomplete results with that, so I don't know why we'd do it. We're in this for the long haul, not an 8 week flash in the pan hoping for some kind of results. We're talking YEARS here. 

That's what you're not yet capturing. It can't be scripted lessons all the way because you're going to work on this and walk him through levels, toggling expressive language and narrative, pushing forward into each level. This is a multi-year process. Not 8 weeks with one curriculum. Not for autism. Long haul.

[PeterPan]

And no, the ASD set is the whole enchilada. The downloads are RICH. I despise reading through tm's, so I usually miss great stuff. But the downloads, I printed them all and used tons and tons of them 

So MW has been trying to make some little booklets or something to use as models for teaching the components. The SKILL presentation is nicely done, it really is. However it makes a lot of assumptions, has language leaps my ds can't handle and would just be a blur if I did that. But yeah, it really is like you're thinking it is. And I didn't give it a fair shake and do it straight, because I'm arrogant and felt free to disagree with phds and slam their results, kwim? LOL Like maybe someone would do it with their kid with ASD2, do it straight, and go wow that was the bomb. I just know my ds needed SO much language work to do each step. In a sense I'm screwing up what they already tried to do with their phase 2 expansion lessons. But I don't think those will turn out to be completely redundant. I looked at them a bit. It just didn't have the slowly building, methodical, incremental approach with mastery and generalization that I knew my ds was going to need.

I find the stages pages (haha) in the MW ASD kit *invaluable*. 

Look, it took me months of having my mind blown before this all came to me with an epiphany. It's ok if you flip out a bit or want it scripted or say you don't have time or whatever. It's ok to do it another way or roll with what you think COULD WORK. But it's a simple and BIG THING at the same time. It just takes a while to see how the pieces intertwine. If you can only one ONE the MW ASD kit is the one to own because it does the best job of showing how the expressive language, narrative/expository, and social intertwine. If you can own both, knock yourself out. SKILL is exactly like those samples and I like it and like having it. But I wasn't going to be satisfied with results like the results they were getting. Therapists and professors might be satisfied with that but I'm Mama Bear and I wanted something more careful. And that's probably the difference between a research-driven product (Gillam/SKILL, what could we do in a set number of weeks with idiot-proof materials) vs. therapist-generated materials that were made for the long haul.

[PeterPan]

The real solution if for us all to meet at a beach and talk narrative language for a week.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm back on this, because it's this or do my lunges with weights to help my back, lol.

I like SKILL and it's as nicely set up as you think. It's not completely adequate for our kids and the printables that come with the ASD kit are invaluable. When I work with my ds, when I pick up a pile of picture books and am like hey, let's do this, I've got one of those printables in a page protector in front of me. It's that useful, that down to earth and in the trenches. 

But you know, kids differ. Roll with your gut, make a choice, lol. If you want the other, buy the other, lol. 

I can pull it out and go through it, but SKILL has phases, a skim through phase and a phase 2 with more depth. Then there was more at the back. There is so much of SKILL that is so advanced that I literally cannot do it with my ds. Just flat cannot. Like seriously, it's just sitting there laughing at me, like haha. 

So what does that tell you if they're like no, you interns and students ram these kids through this stuff and see what happens! It explains why their results are the way they are. The kids progress, but it's not the same as a methodical, incremental, long haul kind of approach with custom materials, custom application, all the way to mastery and generalization.

The word of the day is always generalization. You want to go from sorta gets it with a prompt with easy material to... about his day to... talking in paragraphs about books he's been listening to. Kwim? That's what has happened to my ds. By slowing down and being very methodical, my ds is now giving beautiful paragraphs of conversation at his narrative level. We didn't start there. How would skimming through everything quickly have helped that? That takes time.

[PeterPan]

So can your ds talk about his feelings? If he can't, how do you even get to a complete narrative with a problem and a reaction to the problem and a plan? That involves feelings. 

You could sorta push something I suppose and get SOMETHING out. There's always a way. And there is the theory in intervention that you frontload instruction and then back off and apply. It's an approach.

Whatever. If it eats at you, I'll pull out my SKILL stuff and answer any questions you dream up. Fire away. Cuz I should get in gear, lol. 

I'm just telling you that's where we're at. My ds can do a narrative with setting, characters, action, and a problem, but he doesn't have the SEL to express feelings about the problem and doesn't go on to make a plan. It's the next step. We'll get there, but something has to click with that social emotional language. He knows words in theory, but he clearly doesn't have MEANING for those words, like visual pictures, memories, sensory all linked up. When you are talking about the feelings of a character, you should be connecting it to your own experiences of those feelings, remembering what they felt like, etc. All that piece is missing for him, so the comprehension isn't there, therefore it isn't included in the narrative.

So for my ds, I see us spending a whole year talking about bodies, feelings, the words, how our bodies feel when we have those feelings, how the characters are feeling, what the clue words are that tell us how they're feeling, etc. And that should drive his ability to take the next step in narrative. Language, meaning, and narrative development intertwine.

Edited August 29, 2019 by PeterPan

[kbutton]

My son started are a REALLY low level with this stuff. Now, because his language issues are largely confined to some pragmatics (that have had work--lots of problem-solving, matching faces with emotions, all kinds of stuff several years ago) {ETA: and narrative language}, he was able to progress after some wheel spinning, so he's able to catch up. But he had to start really, really low. Like he started with fables and fairy tales in the summer of 2018, and he was 14 at the time, profoundly gifted, has had a high school reading level since grade 3. It really is a slow haul.

He started with an SLP, and she was pulling out her hair by Christmas. She had just Thememaker and the CTT and some magnets/stamps. I kept asking if she needed the middle ASD book (goes with the CTT). No, well, maybe yes. Ok, so I order it. Lights blinged on all over when she started using that, lol! 

If you think the Anansi stuff is a bit of a stretch, you might need to lay more groundwork, but you should really consider doing it with the SGM stuff in mind and via the autism kit, I would guess. 

He literally started with one page fables and progressed from there. If he had to do that at 14, we're really talking about marinating in this stuff. 

This series might be a good source for two things: very short fables to retell (sometimes having the retelling be the same length is easier at first--they don't have to whittle down details, every detail goes in the organizer someplace) and a source of information about what other gifted kids the same age are working through. The concepts are labeled right on the site--it gives you some terminology for what other language resources you might need to work on if SGM is too big of stretch because it does sound like you might have to stop and start with the material while you uncover other stumbling blocks and fix them. https://www.rfwp.com/series/aesops-fables-books-about-reading-writing-thinking#book-aesops-fables-my-book-about-reading-writing-thinking-vol-i  You wouldn't have to show him any pages other than the actual fable either. That's up to you. 

But one page fables are a potential place to start.

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by kbutton

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

But one page fables are a potential place to start.

                                            Aesop's Favorite Fables: More Than 130 Classic Fables for Children! (Children's Classic Collections)                                       This is what we used this past year. They're even shorter. We photocopied stories so we could mark them. You can get stamps from SGM or use colored highlighters, whatever floats your boat. So we were looking for EVIDENCE for each thing (characters, setting, actions problem, etc.) and then putting those all into our own language and making notes to use for a retell.

The you just do the same thing with non-fiction, same gig. Photocopy, mark, retell.

 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

I didn't know anything better and originally had my son do the whole complete SGM narrative (character to resolution) using his school story books. He clearly struggled, so I digged more and found the narrative stage page in the blog. I felt lost and thought some kind of direct instructions would help. I worried I myself got the wrong kickoff, plan, etc. from the stories. 

Anyway I did the story "The Biggest Snowball Ever." He wasn't able to narrate in paragraph the entire story himself or say what the story was about, but able to answer each question separately, such as who are the characters, what started the story, what do the characters feel. etc. 

His vocabulary/sentence structure variety for narrative seem very limited. For example, he would re-use "cute" all of the time because he doesn't know its other synonyms. 

He can talk about his feeling and character's feelings but they are limited to only the basic universal emotions: happy, sad, mad.   

You're right my challenge is to find stories that are simple enough to do the early stage of SGM (not too many characters with different perspective interacting with each other, or with action obstacle becoming the new kickoff and embedding episodes, etc.) I'll check out the Aesop's Fables series. They look like what I need. Thanks so much. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by OnceUponAFullMoon

[PeterPan]

Don't be afraid to back up to picture books or even wordless books. The lexile numbers consider syntactical complexity, so they're another way to find material that will be on-level. The fables will be pretty complex. For us, the pictures support comprehension, making picture books chosen by lexile the way to go.

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

He wasn't able to narrate in paragraph the entire story himself or say what the story was about, but able to answer each question separately,

I think this is a pretty common thing people find if they teach parts but don't build it into a whole. I've seen posts on FB with people saying their students can analyze all day but can't actually retell.

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I felt lost and thought some kind of direct instructions would help. I worried I myself got the wrong kickoff, plan, etc. from the stories. 

Ok, so here's the catch. Books are complex and there can be main stories, scenes, all kinds of plot lines. To me, your SGM analysis is most helpful for discrete scenes. But when you're retelling a whole book sometimes you're more showing your viewpoint in what you think is important.

So we started with picture books and we were talking about scenes. We built up to fables.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Anyway I did the story "The Biggest Snowball Ever." He wasn't able to narrate in paragraph the entire story himself or say what the story was about, but able to answer each question separately, such as who are the characters, what started the story, what do the characters feel. etc. 

His vocabulary/sentence structure variety for narrative seem very limited. For example, he would re-use "cute" all of the time because he doesn't know its other synonyms. 

He can talk about his feeling and character's feelings but they are limited to only the basic universal emotions: happy, sad, mad.   

I think this is typical when you start. Really typical. It will grow. 

If he uses good emotion words in regular conversation, then he just needs to revise his narrative or access a list of synonyms when he's using the icons/worksheets. If he struggles with emotion words, he might need practice grading emotions. When he was that age, my son could tell you what emotions were positive or negative, but not so much what was neutral. He also couldn't differentiate between annoyed and furious--they were both negative, and that was about as nuanced as it got. He had to learn where those fit on a scale and then re-map those kinds of things to faces and body language.

Fables will help some with emotions, but they do keep it pretty simple--they focus more on the why of the emotion, which is a good set up for working on the CTT later.

The main questions in the SGM are wh- questions, which are notoriously hard for kids on the spectrum (and it sounds like you disagree with the practitioners, so I hope it's okay to assume your son has traits). 

[kbutton]

My son found wordless books to be really difficult for the SGM. He did need practice looking at the pictures and interpreting them, but he could really only describe bits and pieces--his narratives with those often didn't include all the pieces. But it was a good way to see his progress.

My son did better, once he understood the icons and such, being given a kickoff and some character names and being asked to finish. Or being given something a character said, some props, and an event and then having to decide where to put them in the narrative so that it would come out whole and not broken (Sam said, "Ouch," there was a chair knocked over, he went to the nurse's office). He didn't do this right away, but he's very logical, so the idea of trying to make or break a narrative was effective for him.

You will find things that work and things that don't, and you'll be able to move forward.

I had trouble knowing if I had the "right" parts at first too--I always seem to be able to see multiple ways to look at things. I found that using the CTT and the resolution (the tie symbol) was sort of like having multiple checks. It had to make sense when you put it all together.  

[PeterPan]

I think Kbutton is say this but I'll say it too. You don't have an instruction problem. Your ds has a language problem. Kwim? Like don't blame yourself or think that if you had better curriculum or more perfect instruction then it would just SHAZAM and happen. 

There's a lot of something (magic, language development, something) that happens between sorta getting it and doing it in real life situations. None of that is your fault or you not instructing him well. It's the tedium of what it takes to get from *I can do it with a picture* to *I can do it with a chapter book or a movie or my day*. 

So instead of looking for perfect curriculum, wrap your brain around the stages and really do stage 1 of narrative development. Just stage 1. Just do it for 3-4 weeks. Over and over and over and over. Every time you do anything with him, weave in stage 1 expectations. And when he can crank out stage 1 narratives everywhere, for everything he's doing (talking about a tv show or movie when you hit pause, telling about his day, talking about a picture book you read together, etc.) then do stage 2. And so on.

The issue is not YOU. The issue is that his language issues are that significant that they're going to take that much work.

And as we're talking here in this thread, I'm realizing that I probably used literature going from the most simple/brief to the most complex. It just kinda makes sense when you think about it.

-wordless books--Good Dog Carl

-picture books --from the SEL list on weareteachers blog

-aesops fables-Milo Winter, very short

-chapter book read alouds--Little House on the Prairie

-real life

 

[PeterPan]

I don't think there are right parts, wrong parts. A story can be told/interpreted lots of ways or with various emphases.

There's a clip on youtube of Moreau with her granddd and Braidy and Moreau is trying to show how her gdd's narration fits with Braidy, and the girl is trying SO HARD to bust forward, lol. What it communicated to me is that speakers without disabilities aren't so tight and nitpicky. The elements are there, but there's some flexibility to it with emphasis or how long you spend on this or that point or even choosing to rearrange the components.

I didn't want to undercut that development of natural sounding language by sitting there with a ruler, rasping knuckles, kwim? So that's why I've been sort of hands-off, waiting to see how the skills could mature naturally. 

Don't be afraid of wordless books. https://www.smartspeechtherapy.com/in-case-you-missed-it-and-now-on-the-value-of-wordless-picture-books/  I think this is the article that opened my eyes on how to use them.

[PeterPan]

18 minutes ago, kbutton said:

If he uses good emotion words in regular conversation

So I had an OT working with ds who was like wow, his vocabulary is huge for emotion words! She'd have him watch videos and talk about emotions, whatever, blah blah. This was years ago. But when you actually get it to HIM, he has no clue. And if you're reading a book and ask what emotion the character is feeling and how he knows, no intelligent answer. 

So I don't know what that OT was seeing, but I suspect it's that my ds has lots of passive understanding. He has an astonishing vocabulary, recognizing words, etc. But to say how he feels, you're going to get very basic responses. None of it gets applied, and I don't think it's really, really even understood. But he could fake it out in OT, lol.

[kbutton]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What it communicated to me is that speakers without disabilities aren't so tight and nitpicky. The elements are there, but there's some flexibility to it with emphasis or how long you spend on this or that point or even choosing to rearrange the components.

That's a good article.

So, do you still expect coherence when you do that? I can see multiple points or view, but then I stick with whichever one uses the most story grammar elements while being cohesive, lol! 

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So I had an OT working with ds who was like wow, his vocabulary is huge for emotion words! She'd have him watch videos and talk about emotions, whatever, blah blah. This was years ago. But when you actually get it to HIM, he has no clue. And if you're reading a book and ask what emotion the character is feeling and how he knows, no intelligent answer. 

So I don't know what that OT was seeing, but I suspect it's that my ds has lots of passive understanding. He has an astonishing vocabulary, recognizing words, etc. But to say how he feels, you're going to get very basic responses. None of it gets applied, and I don't think it's really, really even understood. But he could fake it out in OT, lol.

It's going to look different for each kid, but that is a good point.

We realized my son was not getting the grading of emotions by his responses (in the moment and delayed)--if someone was stern with him, he would think that person was really mad at him and didn't like him anymore. I remember when I realized this and could explain some things about how his kindergarten teacher responded to his behavior (being stern, not mean or angry), his entire attitude toward her changed from sort of liking her but thinking she was always mad at him to thinking she was fun and liked him. He had just misinterpreted. This happened a couple of YEARS after being in her class. While he was in it, I had no idea he felt that way. It took that long for him to be able to verbalize, "Mrs. So and So didn't like me," and then we could talk about it. I already had a pretty good idea about how she really felt--she was up front early in the year that she did struggle to get him to behave at first, and then she really enjoyed him even if he was a little bit of a stinker. She was the kind of teacher that could be simultaneously amused by kids like that but also redirect them and not let on that she was amused. And it was a really small class (PM Kindergarten--about 8 kids!). 

[kbutton]

22 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I think Kbutton is say this but I'll say it too. You don't have an instruction problem. Your ds has a language problem. Kwim? Like don't blame yourself or think that if you had better curriculum or more perfect instruction then it would just SHAZAM and happen. 

There's a lot of something (magic, language development, something) that happens between sorta getting it and doing it in real life situations. None of that is your fault or you not instructing him well. It's the tedium of what it takes to get from *I can do it with a picture* to *I can do it with a chapter book or a movie or my day*. 

Very well said, but you're giving me more credit, lol! I do believe this, but I hadn't really thought it that clearly. 🙂 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

You guys made me feel better🙂. Would the ASD book set teach how to build parts into a whole? When he analyzed parts, he paraphrased the books instead of using his own words. He doesn't use good emotion words on casual talk either, other than simple happy, mad, sad, scared, surprised, disgusted. He doesn't know confused, irritated, jealous, guilt etc.  So fable set from RFP to build vocabulary and emotion words? I have beginning level MTC and wordly wise books, but they are their own vocabulary/grammar building curriculum. 

We have "Good Dog Carl" so we'll start with it today. I had to push him to do SGM. He just wanted to read through the books fast instead of slowing down to do the parts. We did "Bear where's your manner" and he could narrate the main episode, but stopped in the middle (all the mini episodes with new kickoff-resolution each time bear uses his magic words at school, ) refused to continue,  and complained that the book was too long. He always scans the number of pages/number of words in each page and gets scared of books that have so many words. Since he doesn't comprehend what he reads, he never reads for fun  but as a school chore or to show off his decoding/reading speed.

For my son, the dilemma is picture books have so many pages, while fables are shorter in one page, but they require visualizing mental image (that we aren't really there yet.) Maybe I need to complete ideachain/vv first, then sgm on wordless book/picture book/fables. 

Edited August 30, 2019 by OnceUponAFullMoon

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, kbutton said:

So, do you still expect coherence when you do that?

THAT is why I decided to slow down and teach to the stages, like Moreau says, because I wanted to see them naturalize and develop coherence, like you're saying. 

With autism, we're always wanting skills (conversation, non-verbals, anything) to come across as natural, not scripted, not like we taught them a list and their ticking boxes robotically as they do it. And we HAVE to teach the skills explicitly, but we're trying to do it in a way that is both going to get the point across and yet backed off enough to allow it to be discovered or appear natural. So with play, they push subtly rather than flat out TELLING him the goal. With non-verbals, they do it by discovery, with the leader knowing the goal and using pauses in the interaction to help him notice the goal. So then what does a naturalized narrative language approach look like, kwim?

8 hours ago, kbutton said:

We realized my son was not getting the grading of emotions by his responses

Yes, my ds has this, but he also just takes it farther (hence the ASD2, lol) with utter cluelessness.

8 hours ago, kbutton said:

Very well said, but you're giving me more credit, lol! I do believe this, but I hadn't really thought it that clearly. 🙂 

Does that make you my muse? 

59 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

You guys made me feel better🙂.

Bingo

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Would the ASD book set teach how to build parts into a whole?

So he's giving out parts instead of a whole because he was asked for so many parts and couldn't generate the level of whole they implied. Try a stage 1 narrative and see if he can do it. That might be the "whole narrative" he needs to do for a while. And remember, he's 7 for pity's sake. Now at that age technically he should be doing complete narratives, sure. But he's 7 with probable ASD and a pile of language and whatever issues. It's no shock that you have to start at the beginning. So start at the beginning, kwim? https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  Stage 1, descriptive sequence. And make it kind of subtle, just integrated into life, no flowcharts. Over and over, till he's cranking out something that seems like he's getting it. Then stage 2. But start with stage 1. He's so young it might be just enough.

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

So fable set from RFP to build vocabulary and emotion words?

So you and me both here, haha. I think SEL is it's own topic and you're going to end up wanting materials specific to it. We put so much effort into a social thinking approach (what is the character THINKING) that we didn't work on what the character was FEELING. And feelings are affective or hypostatic. In other words, we might have an emotion work (hungry, frustrated, whatever), but their BODIES are doing something with it. So when we're working on this, to actually build reading comprehension we have to be connecting our BODIES and the hypostatic symptoms to the affective words.

Kelly Mahler and I have chatted about something like body scan charts with velcro where you'd talk about an emotion and then do a body scan of the character. Maybe you don't do that formally, but you could. I think I'm actually going to need to with my ds. Like we'll look at books together and they'll actually give picture clues. That's why we use a lot of picture books, because it's giving us that info. I'm like hey, what are his hands doing, look at the red lines coming out, look his hat flew off, what is he feeling?? We're reading Dog Man comics for that, haha. Comics are crazy powerful for communicating emotion with visuals. They're putting into visual form things that are sometimes invisible hypostatic symptoms, kwim? like we'll say someone got hot, but you don't SEE hot in real life. But you see it in comics because they actually draw red lines coming out of the guy, lol. So comics are how we're working on SEL right now, just as a start, getting the juices flowing. But it's really good.

So you don't need words. You need him to realize what his body feels when he has those emotions so he can say when he's having them. And you need him to recognize the clues (visual, descriptive, and implied) in the text that tell him those hypostatic and affective emotions are happening, which is reading comprehension. 

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

We have "Good Dog Carl" so we'll start with it today.

So my suggestion would be try to do a level one narration. Like literally just tell him, after we read this together, we're going to do a stage one narration where we talk about the characters and setting and that's it. Then, if he nails that at the level you'd like, then say hey, you'd did so great, let's try a level 2! But if he doesn't nail it, that's great, now just go read the next thing y'all wanted to do together (pile of picture books, silly ads in magazines, whatever) and practice it 10 times. Then just stop the lesson. At that point, try to generalize it to LIFE, kwim? Like hey, where did we go today and who was there? We went to the park and Billy was there. Boom, stage 1 narrative in real life. Over and over. When he's nailing stage 1, move to stage 2. Nothing is too simple if he's not able to crank it out, kwim? And if he is cranking it out at a sensible level, move to stage 2. But if he's not, park right there and get it. 

Good Dog Carl is so enchanting, you can come back and use it again and again. Don't belabor it. 

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

He just wanted to read through the books fast instead of slowing down to do the parts.

Is he reading or you are reading? Either way, I love that he's excited about the books!!! When I'm practicing instructionally, I usually have a pile of picture books and he knows he's going to get asked for skills. But then when we're naturalizing, it's kind of natural (haha), like pausing after each chapter. Mercifully he will give me something with prompts with those pauses. And you start to see, over the course of the chapters, as the skill becomes easier because the prompts fade and he can do it more independently. But i agree with him, don't kill books over it, lol. As soon as he becomes more proficient in the stage, move to something longer, like a chapter book, where it isn't so tedious to pause and nab a narration. It's good for his comprehension because odds are without that he'll lose the flow across the chapters.

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

We did "Bear where's your manner" and he could narrate the main episode, but stopped in the middle (all the mini episodes with new kickoff-resolution each time bear uses his magic words at school, ) refused to continue,  and complained that the book was too long.

I haven't read that book but he has a really good point there!!! That's what we were talking about, that real life is more complex. And you've got a super smart boy to understand that. I tell my ds upfront if I'm wanting the MAIN PLOT or some little sidewinding details. We talk in autism about the idea of central coherence, or whether they can see the BIG PICTURE. So reading a book together that has those side plots and then asking him what was the MAIN gig is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE thing for comprehension. So his brain might be like no I want to get lost on some minor rabbit trail that was fascinating, and you're pulling it back and saying no, give me the big picture. It's a comprehension thing,, very important, but maybe kind of advanced. Maybe choose your books carefully, lol. 

What I'm finding is the lexile indexes (I'm having trouble spelling it the other way, mercy) that control language also correspond to narrative level in my ds. I hadn't anticipated that, just saying how it rolls. So take down the lexile level on the book you're using for this, and the issue may resolve. With the language work you're having to do, taking down the lexile index of the books you want him to narrate from may improve his ability to use the language and narrate. 

I separate things in my mind, so I take down the level for instruction, take it up to receptive level for read alouds, and I take it up to cognitive level for audiobooks. So with the same child I'm using maybe a 300 level lexile book all the way up to adult and college level material. I try to make sure that I create a mix that is moving all his aspects of language forward. He needs pleasure (cognitive level), challenge (read alouds at receptive level), and instruction (expressive language level). So it's just something to be aware of to accomplish your goals.

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

refused to continue,  and complained that the book was too long.

The other thing I love about this is his self-advocacy here. You really want to honor that, because he was using kind language to say something was too hard. So he's issuing a blanket "it's too long" but you could acknowledge it was hard, talk about why it's hard, tell him what parts you expect, say hey I'll help you with this one and we'll pick a different book to narrate from next, etc. Definitely acknowledge when he's self-advocating and problem solve together. Good stuff!

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

He always scans the number of pages/number of words in each page and gets scared of books that have so many words.

Oh dear. So what's your plan for that?

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Since he doesn't comprehend what he reads

Ok, so you need to stop with having him reading stuff he's not understanding. Is he reading the pages for the speech therapy materials you're using? Like how "not understanding" are we talking here? If he's reading those pages aloud and understanding every word on the page, he can understand SOMETHING. He's not completely hyperlexic at that point. Then the issue is backing up to a lexile level that he understands.

You've got to reset the bar on reading comprehension so his expectation becomes I CAN READ THIS, I CAN UNDERSTAND IT. You don't want to be going forward with snowing as your main thing. With my ds, when he wasn't understanding, it was almost like a stim. He'd listen to audiobooks for hours and just memorize. It was crazy.

https://hub.lexile.com/find-a-book/book-results

                                            Dear Zoo: A Lift-the-Flap Book                                       Here, try something like this. Lexile 150. It's a board book, and the appropriate narration for it is stage 1, characters and setting. You read it together and the narration is something like "giraffes, elephants, and tigers live at a zoo." Boom. And get books like this from the library where he can read every word on the page, connect it to visual imagery, and understand every word he's reading. Raise the bar on this, kwim? 

                                            Word Callers: Small-Group and One-to-One Interventions for Children Who "Read" but Don't Comprehend (Research-Informed Classroom)                                       Have you done this with him yet? When you buy it new, it includes sets of cards you use to do some exercises she created. They're trying to help the dc multi-process, to be able to decode AND have meaning for words at the same time. You may need to do this. I did it with my ds. Doesn't take long and this book is the easiest way to do it.

I don't know more reasons why hyperlexia occurs, like what the real glitches are. I've read a couple books on it, but frankly they all seem like crap, like the people don't have a clue or never worked with my ds, lol. Judy Endow has a book coming out that's going to include a chapter with a literature review on hyperlexia by someone, but really I'm not hopeful even on that. My personal take is keep looking for why the words don't have meaning for him. 

But yeah, just for good measure, you want to be doing that Word Callers stuff pretty soon so you're not banging your head against a fixable wall. But after that, HOPEFULLY it's just making sure the words actually have meaning, kwim?

So you see with a 150 lexile level book the normal narration it leads you into is a stage 1. So when he's saying the book is too long to narrate and you're saying he's not understanding, you're already seeing that you need to DROP THE LEXILE LEVEL. If you're working at instructional level and want to instruct with it and want comprehension, you're going to have to drop the lexile level.

If he's listening for pleasure because he's into physics, knock yourself out, give him Great Courses, lol. But if the point is instructional level for language, you're going to have to drop that lexile level and control it till the narrative level and syntactic complexity meets his ability to comprehend and work with it. And lexile is how you get there. Boom. Free. Easy.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

For my son, the dilemma is picture books have so many pages, while fables are shorter in one page, but they require visualizing mental image (that we aren't really there yet.) Maybe I need to complete ideachain/vv first, then sgm on wordless book/picture book/fables. 

So I've seen posts about IdeaChain and haven't done it. What's the jist? 

Yes, fables are doubtless too hard. I would start at a lexile 150 with stage 1 narrations. When he's nailing that, toggle one or the other forward (lexile level or narrative expectations). So if you put it another way, I was taking say a stage 1/2/3 (he went quickly into 3 because he was 10, not 7, kwim?) from very low lexiles up, up, up. Then do the next narrative stage, starting with a low lexile and going up, up, up. 

So not a high lexile with a low stage but paired, low stage, low lexile. 

Ok, I just put 150 into the lexile finder, and I think your 7 yo would LOVE the books it's cranking out. Seriously. You're going to find age-appropriate books that he will enjoy, fiction, non-fiction, everything, just by putting in that 150. Technically it's going to look for a range, so like 100-210 or something. And that will give you that bit of push without being too hard. And they'll be at your library. Check it out. For me, the lexile search engine is like CHRISTMAS, lol. I love books and I want my ds to love books. But it's hard to feel the love when things don't fit, kwim? So the lexile engine let's you find new things you never realized you could enjoy together and have them be just right. I order mine online through the library and they just appear, like Christmas, hehe.

[PeterPan]

Just to ramble on the lexile finder thing, when you tap categories it gives you a pulldown. That's crazy useful. But I'm also seeing they now let you filter by graphic novels!!!!!! This is huge.

So play with the filters, narrow stuff, have fun. And you'll notice it will let you sort by newest first. That's how you know they're great new books that will be at your library.

For my ds, old language, classics, etc. are harder. It's just his reality. Like I've read him Dr. Doolittle, sure. But reality is modern books are great and they aren't something I have at the top of my head to go to the library and pick out for him, kwim? That would be too much time. So the lexile tool saves my butt.

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

You guys made me feel better🙂. Would the ASD book set teach how to build parts into a whole? When he analyzed parts, he paraphrased the books instead of using his own words. He doesn't use good emotion words on casual talk either, other than simple happy, mad, sad, scared, surprised, disgusted. He doesn't know confused, irritated, jealous, guilt etc.  So fable set from RFP to build vocabulary and emotion words? I have beginning level MTC and wordly wise books, but they are their own vocabulary/grammar building curriculum. 

We have "Good Dog Carl" so we'll start with it today. I had to push him to do SGM. He just wanted to read through the books fast instead of slowing down to do the parts. We did "Bear where's your manner" and he could narrate the main episode, but stopped in the middle (all the mini episodes with new kickoff-resolution each time bear uses his magic words at school, ) refused to continue,  and complained that the book was too long. He always scans the number of pages/number of words in each page and gets scared of books that have so many words. Since he doesn't comprehend what he reads, he never reads for fun  but as a school chore or to show off his decoding/reading speed.

For my son, the dilemma is picture books have so many pages, while fables are shorter in one page, but they require visualizing mental image (that we aren't really there yet.) Maybe I need to complete ideachain/vv first, then sgm on wordless book/picture book/fables. 

I think the ASD books spend lots of time on the parts because they need to, but I assume they work toward the whole--it's just spread out more. Maybe Peter Pan can clarify. 

You might ask another question on the LC board about where to start with emotions and if you are not comfortable saying he has ASD, you can say that you'd like materials geared that way anyway. We had a behaviorist who selected and used materials for that, and I not longer have that book to tell you what it was. 

I think the RFWP could help with vocab and emotion, but if it's too much, you might still have to back off a bit--start low and go slow, so to speak. But they are inexpensive and would give you a place to compare to what other gifted kids his age could do. Wordly wise builds vocabulary on context--I don't think you're going to get as much traction with that due to hyperlexia. You probably need speech therapy materials for vocabulary as Peter Pan is suggesting. I didn't have the hyperlexia problem, so I am going to defer to her on that.

Have you tried the MCT grammar yet? It might be kind of abstract, but it might be okay in parts. I have used several levels if you need to chat about that separately. I think that with his issues, I'd delay, but you never know. The island level vocabulary *might* be concrete for him--stems paired with visuals. But they aren't everyday words, and I really think you're going to need to work on real life stuff right now. The other levels get more abstract all the time and are tons of reading, playing with language, visualizing.

I didn't have to start with visualization, so I am no help there. The RFWP books do sometimes have pictures that go with the fable. You'd have to see what you think. One problematic thing about the RFWP fable books is that they are kind of open-ended (but gently so). That can cause problems with these kiddos. 

You're in that awkward stage of just needing to try things, and if they go sideways, back off in a way that keeps things very positive for your son. But Peter Pan has great ideas for handling that. 

[PeterPan]

If you're doing 100% Rothstein, you're doing grammar. A regular grammar program may be a big jump. See, but it may be. 

5 minutes ago, kbutton said:

You might ask another question on the LC board about where to start with emotions

That would be fun. I need to get my butt in gear on it. We could see what jen has posted in the past, look through saved lists on amazon, etc. Sometimes we've had mentions and we just need to pull it together into a coherent plan.

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

I have Grammar Island and Building Language. Building Language is SO HARD, but the grammar book may be more doable.

Ideachain is VV with scripted lessons, since I think part of his problem is that he reads much faster than he could visualize and ends up not remembering anything to retell. Yeah I don’t know why words don’t have meaning naturally to him either. It's his native language.

Last year he did reading assignment that asked for the middle of the story. He said well the book has 12 pages total, so the middle would be page 6. Then he went on reading everything on page 6 of the book. 😑

For social/emotion, I already have social detective, superflex, and zones of regulation, linguisystems social language room 14, and still waiting for my Kelly Mahler’s Interoception book to come. He can tell when he is or someone else is angry based on how the body reacts (fast heart rate, yelling.) He just lacks vocabulary to describe beyond basic emotion words (synonyms/variation of “angry/mad” and social emotions.)

 

Audiobooks won’t help since his listening comprehension is much worse than his reading comprehension. I have to break instruction/explanation down to one simple sentence at a time. He does enjoy watching videos with subtitles on or do hands-on storytelling kit.

 

I need to start somewhere, so I’ll do both the fables vol 1 and lexile 150 picture books, supplementing with Word Caller book to build vocabulary and see how things go. 

 

[kbutton]

Once you get going, it might help you to make notes of what you see in his behavior, progress, etc. just like what you wrote above about the middle of the story--that's so huge. And again, I'd like to see those professionals get their comeuppance--this is the kind of stuff that is so characteristic of autism. Sigh.

As you get your sea legs, you'll be able to categorize what you are seeing more fully and organize it better in your mind. You'll have great data to potentially swing evals into something more productive later. You'll have more confidence to set goals and to measure them. 

You have a plethora of excellent resources, and you will soon know where your kid is relative to all of that. Then you're set to make progress and regroup. 

My son wasn't diagnosed until 9, so you are ahead of the ahead of the game in some respects. 

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I think part of his problem is that he reads much faster than he could visualize and ends up not remembering anything to retell. Yeah I don’t know why words don’t have meaning naturally to him either. It's his native language.

It's like in Cars where Lightning McQueen is supposed turn right to go left,--this is a go slow to go faster situation for him and for you. The VV and ideachain and all the other stuff is to slow things down. These kids move through things fast to keep their momentum up. If they slow down, they're confused. If they go fast, they just get to the "End," and for kids, that's what they think they should do. They don't understand mastery criteria, but they do understand Finished. If they get bogged down, they aren't sure they will get to the end. You are redefining the end to be whatever the next goal is and making those connections be the length they need to be to be able to slow down.

Ultimately, no matter where your son ends up, he'll benefit from slowing down and solidifying all of this--going slower so that he can go faster accurately later on.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Yeah I don’t know why words don’t have meaning naturally to him either. It's his native language.

So for my ds it was because he had memorized language as a whole and he's crazy bright brain could not break it down into parts. So when we started using language materials that looked at language from parts to whole (how everyone else learns language), suddenly the parts had meaning. Then he could build up.

It's also why grammar doesn't work. If he memorized language as a whole, everything is glitched.

1 hour ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

assignment that asked for the middle of the story. He said well the book has 12 pages total, so the middle would be page 6. Then he went on reading everything on page 6 of the book. 😑

Hahaha, so spectrum, lol.

2 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

Audiobooks won’t help since his listening comprehension is much worse than his reading comprehension. I have to break instruction/explanation down to one simple sentence at a time.

That's really interesting. And you said you're working on SLP evals? You really should run the SPELT yourself if she doesn't have it. I guess see what she turns up with what she does. Owning the tests is the huge gap there. Don't own it, can't run it, lol.

Have you had him to an audiologist? And done APD testing?

So there are concepts, WH words, all sorts of things that break down that they look at for speech therapy. 100% is great, but it's one piece. You've got clauses and syntactical complexity. The SPELT goes through a LOT of stuff. But I swear the score form shows you zilch. You actually need to see it done if you're wanting to do the intervention. 

So if I could just make a suggestion on triaging, I think put your emphasis on the language. 

https://www.northernspeech.com/speech-language-acquisition/natural-language-acquisition-in-autism-echolalia-to-self-generated-language-level-1/  The video at this link is what finally connected the dots for me on my ds' language issues. Tons of language, all memorized, whole to parts. So the parts had no meaning because his brain couldn't get there. 

https://www.linguisystems.com/Products/37612/the-basic-reading-comprehension-kit-for-hyperlexia-and-autism.aspx  Here's a hyperlexia kit that Jen from here on the boards used. Her boy is a couple years ahead of mine, so I bow down.   Anyways, if you don't think you need the whole kit, you could use it as a checklist of skills to make sure you're hitting.

[PeterPan]

So now I'll break your heart. When you're saying you have to break down everything into single sentences, that means there's a breakdown with clauses and more complex syntax. You've got a long way to go. I have not significantly worked on that with my ds yet. I've tried and done some things, but not like tada, nailed it. And syntax and the bump in complexity is why drives lexile, drives reading level, drives comprehension level. It also creates the MEANING that gets you to the later levels of narrative. So when you forward push language, you're giving the pieces that can allow everything else to happen. 

There's kind of a ceiling these kids hit with reading comprehension, and it's because of the syntactic complexity.

And for me, it breaks my heart because it feels like I can't win. With my ds, if we learn a structure, we learned a structure. Then you realize people might say that sentence another way and another way and another way. Change the order and the kid is befuddled. 

There are some programs like shape coding where they try to use visual explanations to chart what is happening. There are ways and SLPs like Balthazaar are doing research. But it feels like a never-ending pit. I was listening to the books my ds is listening to on audio right now, and the syntax is just chop, chop, chop. and that has to be why he's engaging so well, because it's easy for him, even if the target age of the books is older.

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Ok, now can I share a total aside on this lexile thing? I mentioned the new engine has more labels. Well this is the series he's listening to right now https://hub.lexile.com/find-a-book/book-details/9781451656503  And it's marked HL500L. That HL prefix even shows up on amazon. That stands for, drum roll, high-low readers!!!! 

So who knew! Now I can search for high-low readers using the lexile hub. This is crazy awesome.

Adding: It also shows you I'm not crazy. That 500 lexile is very low for a target age group of gr7-9. And that's not really inflated. It's crazy mature, with really brief syntax. My ds is in LOVE with this book. So that might be another thing to try, an HL150 or HL200 or something. Like just play with it.

Edited August 30, 2019 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

My son (he’s 10) has some solid syntax.  He uses some solid syntax, and can understand “some” solid syntax.

I think vocabulary and inferences are holding him back more.

I’m happy with how he is doing right now.  I think he has a decent degree of comprehension with what he is listening to right now — he is very into A-Z Mysteries.  They are aimed at such a younger child than the book  PeterPan linked I think.  But he currently is really into A-Z Mysteries.

He can also say good sentences for everything.  He can say sentences with feelings and use “because” etc kinds of words.  He answered a “how” question with a good sentence starting with the word “by” recently.  

He also seems stalled with being able to go from sentences to a re-tell.  He can do an easy re-tell but it’s never quite — in a good order and including the needed information.  

I have got MW autism books.  They are good, the sheets available for printing are good.  I also got student SGM manipulatives.  (I emailed the company and this is definitely something you can do!!!!!!!!!  I got a very nice response.). 

I just don’t think my son is ready to tie everything together.  It is hard word for him to come up with these good sentences.  

I think — he does have a good understanding of the icons, and I think that helps his comprehension a huge amount.  I think he has or is developing that framework.

But it’s so hard for him to come up with expressive language, I don’t think it’s the right time right now for me to be really using MW to try to get to a full re-tell.  

I think he’s good right now to be more informal and have more exposure to chapter books post-understanding the icons for story grammar (and — applying some amount of reading comprehension!).  

I do agree with other posters it’s very possible your child has autism.  There are other materials out there for autism for kids to come up with a sentence.  My son personally did VB-MAPP and ABLLS — which are more focused on a lower level in ways.  These are usually used by an ABA therapist for autism.  It’s very hard to say though.  My son definitely would come across as having autism and a major language delay.  

Still I do agree with other posters.  But — if you are doing good things, then you are doing good things.  You can see how things play out.  But there is a lot of good stuff (materials/teaching approaches) with autism and I think that is an advantage of having an autism diagnosis.  

My son had a 2nd ADOS done about a year and a half ago (our insurance wanted us to do it I guess — I don’t even know why we did it but the pediatrician wanted us to do it for sure) ———— and what is pertinent to this conversation — want to know one of the parts of the ADOS?  Narrating a wordless picture book.  That was a scored part of the test.  And — that is for an autism-specific test.  The ADOS is a test to diagnose autism.  So — I think — being able to narrate a wordless picture book really is very pertinent for autism.  

I also agree — it’s hard because it’s hard for your son.  If you had a child who picked it up more easily — you would be able to use just about anything and it would just be picked up and the child would make some beautiful narrations.  

I have 2 other kids and in various ways — I do get feedback that I am a good parent and doing good things because of one kid or the other picking things up easily and well..... that I don’t get in the same way with my son with autism.

Yet much more effort and concern go into teaching him.

On the bright side — the effort and concern are repaid in such a way — because it’s not like “well he would probably just pick it up regardless.”  

I think all the things you are looking at are high-quality programs.  It’s hard to know just what is the right thing at the right time.  If you have access to any outside therapies it’s worth checking it out.  Sometimes it’s great and so worthwhile, sometimes you turn out to be doing more at home. 

[kbutton]

15 hours ago, Lecka said:

I just don’t think my son is ready to tie everything together.  It is hard word for him to come up with these good sentences.  

I think — he does have a good understanding of the icons, and I think that helps his comprehension a huge amount.  I think he has or is developing that framework.

But it’s so hard for him to come up with expressive language, I don’t think it’s the right time right now for me to be really using MW to try to get to a full re-tell.  

I think he’s good right now to be more informal and have more exposure to chapter books post-understanding the icons for story grammar (and — applying some amount of reading comprehension!).  

I do agree with other posters it’s very possible your child has autism.  There are other materials out there for autism for kids to come up with a sentence.  My son personally did VB-MAPP and ABLLS — which are more focused on a lower level in ways.  These are usually used by an ABA therapist for autism.  It’s very hard to say though.  My son definitely would come across as having autism and a major language delay.  

I think that there is often a lag in receptive being able to come back out as expressive, and as Lecka is saying, the materials can support comprehension too. 

We totally missed the VB-MAPP and ABLLS stages, and my son didn't come across as a kid with language challenges for the most part, BUT hearing about those programs, what they target, how things have developed with Lecka's son, I can see some of the same deficits with my son. I think it would be worth your while to find out more about those programs as well. I know that the things that are covered in those programs are things that my son lagged in relative to the rest of his language for a long time, and some things did not develop at all; other things developed with a limp, so to speak--he did develop his own way of functioning, but it left some holes. We are fortunate that SGM materials target some of those things (like the critical thinking triangle concepts, cohesive ties, etc.) in a way that he can access because we were not finding things that hit those problems at the right level. Your son might be a good fit for some of the things in the VB-MAPP and ABLLS, or it might help you see the bigger picture.

[PeterPan]

The 100% vocab rothstein she's doing s hitting, if she's fleshing it out which I think she is,, the FFC work from ABLLS/VBMAPP. The ABLLS/VBMAPP also include beginning narratives.

But with I'm you that it's completely frustrating that they assume kids with ASD don't need this work due to IQ or differences in support level or whatever. Delayed diagnosis, delayed intervention, basically a gifted bias (like oh he's smart, he won't need that).

[kbutton]

15 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The 100% vocab rothstein she's doing s hitting, if she's fleshing it out which I think she is,, the FFC work from ABLLS/VBMAPP. The ABLLS/VBMAPP also include beginning narratives.

But with I'm you that it's completely frustrating that they assume kids with ASD don't need this work due to IQ or differences in support level or whatever. Delayed diagnosis, delayed intervention, basically a gifted bias (like oh he's smart, he won't need that).

Or need these things at a different level/context than where the therapies are targeted. 

I am hoping they start to realize that while there are profiles within autism, there are kids that seem to come wired with eclectic groups of symptoms, lol! 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, kbutton said:

Or need these things at a different level/context than where the therapies are targeted. 

That's the joke. My ds actually did have the breakdowns. He just had these really complex bluffing/masking skills. Like one SLP we used, who was easily snowed, was like Wow when he plays Pickles to Penguins he makes these amazing connections!! Well he was saying crazy off the wall connections because he couldn't say THESE ARE ALL BLUE, THESE ARE ALL THINGS YOU EAT WITH.

But he's ASD2. So you're saying ASD1 might pass the VBMAPP but still have issues? No clue. You'd think they'd actually want evidence for making conclusions like that in treatment. In reality it's just simple: get diagnosed later, you don't get the intervention. So then it dumps on the SLPs because it results in so many problems and they SLPs whip out under-powered tools and don't really realize what they're supposed to be doing because of the turf wars that told them BCBAs are criminals and that they don't need to know about the verbal behavior approach or any other theories of language approach except the ones they were taught.

[Lecka]

I think it can be either way whether someone with a higher level would have gaps from the VB-MAPP.  They might or might not.  It might or might not be thing to make sense.

What I see happen more is — ABA therapists are the ones to use the VB-MAPP.

Parents of some kids get really steered away from ABA and then they just never have the chance to find out if there are gaps from that level or not.  

The VB-MAPP can be used by any age, if someone is working on skills from that level. 

I think it goes through skills that are supposed to be through age 5.  

Then the ABLLS goes higher than that, and it also overlaps with VB-MAPP.  

But there is a lot that overlaps for sure.  Many people are all seeing the same things and working on the same things.  

Like a lot of people — we are influenced by what insurance covers.  For us personally — ABA is covered, but speech therapy can only be 1:1 — no social skills groups run by a speech therapist can be covered.  But an ABA therapist could have a small group of kids and do the same kinds of social skills group things, and that would be covered by our insurance.  So that is just how things are for us.  

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So you're saying ASD1 might pass the VBMAPP but still have issues?

I suspect that my son has had some issues that parallel what's targeted in those programs, but his glitches would be at a higher reasoning level. I am not familiar enough with the details to say for sure. I know that I would see parallels to stuff he'd mess up, but it seemed like the therapy, when I asked about it, would be stuff he could already do. And the last behaviorist he worked with didn't suggest those programs even after she figured out that his problems were largely related to expressive language, and she was a firm believer in data. She couldn't find a good instructional level for him though, even after language testing, so who knows? 

He definitely had found alternate ways around his communication difficulties in much of life, just not academics! 

[OnceUponAFullMoon]

Mine can write full sentences with correct grammar (creative writing, not narrative writing.) His sentences, however, seem repetitive with the same structure & vocabulary. He can use “because” and “so” but the causation doesn’t always make sense. He also struggles with vocabulary & inference. The thing about comprehension is I need him to narrate/tell me what the story is about for me to know whether he comprehends it or not.

I emailed MW asking the difference between the SGM manual and the autism books, but they never got back to me. Do you mind telling me what the autism books teach? What are their ISBN so I can go find them at interlibrary? I made my own teacher manipulative and printed out the narrative stage from MW post. Accompanied with the story book lists from Kbutton and Pepterpan, MW instruction videos, presentation & a few free lesson samples in their blog, what more do the autism books contribute? MW did say the free sample lessons were part of hundreds of those lessons in their manual, but they didn’t really specify which manual. 

 VB-MAPP and ABLLS are assessments for specialists? I’ll try to push his pediatrician for an ADOS evaluation referral then. 

 

 

[PeterPan]

27 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I emailed MW asking the difference between the SGM manual and the autism books, but they never got back to me.

Was this over the holiday weekend? You can call and ask to talk to Moreau herself. She's really lovely.

The ASD books have great downloads and they weave in the social thinking. I really don't see a point in buying the non-ASD version in your case. 

27 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

what more do the autism books contribute?

Oh I hear you, lol. I'm the way too, like big picture, don't bother to read. The downloads are what you're wanting. I can pull my stuff out or Lecka can say. I'm just saying I'm like you, in the drag, why read what I already know, blah blah, and for me the downloads were rich.

I think console yourself that you can sell it when you're done, lol.

27 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

 VB-MAPP and ABLLS are assessments for specialists?

They're printed tools that both assess and become roadmaps for intervention. They're used in ABA, so when psychs, whomever, pat you on the head and say he's so gifted and high functioning and all that crap that he doesn't need ABA, that's what they're moving you past. And when they did that to my ds at 6, they didn't do us a favor. My ds didn't need *everything* in those, but he needed some. Your ds is at a point where maybe they'd walk on by. He's really a bit farther than my ds was and those tools only go through age 5 development. After that the kids are in school and the IEP process takes over.

27 minutes ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

I’ll try to push his pediatrician for an ADOS evaluation referral then. 

Yes, that would be a good thing. And if you find a psych who sees a lot of gifted and a lot of autism, who isn't going to blame homeschooling, etc., who specializes in the ADOS, that could be even better. 

My ds' scores on the ADOS were much higher than we imagined. They actually correlated well to our other parent-filled questionaires. Just saying considering the blow-off we had gotten for so long, I wasn't expecting those scores. 

What we're really saying is the eval for autism can be its own thing. Someone can spend hours and hours just on that, taking in data from you (like all these stories you keep posting about his hyper-literalism, the hyperlexia, etc. etc.) and seeing hs responses and how they vary with the day, etc. etc.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

If you buy the ASD kit, get the $10 magnet set.

And if you want SKILL, get SKILL, sure. But I think you're going to want the clarity of the MW ASD downloads. I use them like crazy, because my ds can understand them. I can hold them up and he can work through the expectations for the step. It's more shazam in SKILL.

Edited September 1, 2019 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

My insurance is very picky, and what they want is an ADOS.  

Your added details of problems with inferences, repetitive sentence structures, and the causation being “off” or not quite making sense or being a bit random or not being *the obvious thing you would expect someone to say* (and then — if of course they get that and are being creative — it is different than if that does not jump out at them!!!!!) —— it does all sound like autism.

Vocabulary can too.

I think for your pediatrician maybe you want a referral for an autism assessment or diagnosis.  The ADOS is one test and it’s what our insurance really wants, but if something else applies to you then that is what you need.  

So about the VB-MAPP and ABLLS — they are an assessment and they are also like a list of goals, a framework.  You can have goals from them, and track progress with them.  They are big lists of goals across different areas.  Only some of the sections are going to pertain to what you are mentioning here as concerns.  Other sections — might also be concerns but you aren’t mentioning them here — or might actually be fine.

So — for example, just an example, my son spent ages and ages on “wh sentences.”  Speech therapy also does wh sentences.  Reading specialists also do wh sentences.  This is basically — can you answer “what, where, when, who, how, why” questions properly.  

So — for example my son has done very beginning retells with sequence cards with 3 pictures, then with 5 pictures, etc.  

If you might benefit from retelling from a picture sequence of 3 cards, that is a more basic level.

Supports like that might help you to see what your son is comprehending, though!  It would be a supported retell but you could still see how he did with those supports.

Just to say — that is something that would be more basic (I think) than what you would get from Mindwings.  It could “also” be used but it wouldn’t be “the whole answer.”

But whatever your options are locally will make a big difference.  My husband is in the Army and we have very specific insurance.  It’s good but it means we do things a certain way and have certain options.  

Be aware there are always people to say “it’s not autism.”  They can be very well-meaning but not be aware of quality materials focused on autism, etc.  

Also “autism” has changed a lot in recent years and some people are not “up” on the changes or else they don’t agree with them.  But really in the “autism” area there is a lot of good, helpful stuff and it can be helpful without being like “oh no your child has autism, now you are going to give up on him” (which some people will think).

So it is just something where not everyone is on the same page, but if something is helpful then it will still be helpful even if there is some disagreement.  Like — if a psychologist is doing great things — I would just take the positive there.  But unless they have investigated autism with an open mind — they may not be the person you talk to about an autism diagnosis.

Of course too maybe your son really would not get a diagnosis.  That is also possible.  Still it doesn’t sound like you have had it seriously investigated.  

[Lecka]

I think it’s hard to know what would be the right level for your son right now.

I think Mindwings autism materials are great!  But I also know — there is an “identify the character and setting” kind of level my son was on for maybe two years.  And in that time — the “character and setting” stuff from Mindwings would have been great.  But he had a lot of other language-related needs outside the scope of the Mindwings autism materials.  And then it’s like — I can’t just spend $100 on something that “might” work out great, too often.  

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, OnceUponAFullMoon said:

The thing about comprehension is I need him to narrate/tell me what the story is about for me to know whether he comprehends it or not.

Does he seem to be able to discuss it in a back and forth manner, like a Socratic discussion? Sometimes kids can understand more than they can put back out, and that's still something that needs therapy, but it's also something you can build on or a skill you can use to get around narrations on occasions when it would be helpful. My son's ability to carry on a back and forth conversation is exactly what masked his difficulties--if he was missing a piece, he'd often hear that "correction" in what the other person in the dialog was saying. He still couldn't narrate after a discussion like that though, at least not easily, and writing it down was beyond the pale.

My son also lacked variety in his sentences even though he would write compound complex sentences readily. 

[kbutton]

You are on the right track, and I think you can take baby steps forward with what you have. Then you can see what happens and regroup. Truly.