New Puppy we are considering! Need list to buy and questions! UPDATE !!! SEPT 4, May 3 - PICTURES!!!

[sheryl]

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Truth. Honestly, they are to make MY life more pleasant as much as anything. If I didn't have a passel of children to teach and take care of and a book to write and a husband etc etc. I could follow puppy around and not need a crate....maybe. But Crates keep puppy safe, keep the house safe, and BEST of all keep people from being angry at the puppy for just being a puppy. And they prevent bad habits from starting. Puppy can't steal the toddler's pizza if puppy is in the crate while toddler is eating. Etc etc.    Agreed, benefit to people and dogs!

I use exactly the same phrase. I tend to say "lets go" when I just need forward movement and don't care where/how it is done....so from the house to the car with my trained dog I don't make him heel. Or if he is off leash at the park, and we need to move somewhere else in the park "let's go". Then there is "heel" which is a structured walk, by my side or a bit behind (I'm not looking for a show quality heel where their neck is all crooked and they can't watch where they are going, just right by my side and keeping an eye on me). Then "with me" means "hey, catch up, go the general direction I'm going" and is used usually off leash as well. With a puppy I'd start with "let's go" and teach them to follow you around and give treats when they are next to you. Start in the living room or hallway, then backyard with REALLY good treats, then front yard with REALLY good treats for just a second or two, etc. then "heel" formally on leash later.   I'm excited to up my game with using "more" commands and not "stop short" of the basics.  Verbal then hand - great!  Come, sit, down, heel, walk, let's go, near me..........and the list goes on. 

All treats are rewards. Dogs in my world say "please" before getting a treat by doing whatever I ask, be that a simple sit, or a down, or coming when called. So if I'm chopping chicken and want to share I will yell out "HERE!" and when they get there they get the chicken, as a reward for coming when called. Or if my husband is sharing mini wheats with the brain damaged old border collie (I know..not species appropriate but he LOVES it and we only buy it a few times a year) my husband will make him sit for it. Think of it as the dog saying "please". Or think of it as keeping the relationship balanced. If you constantly are GIVING the dog love, pets, scratches, toys, food, treats, opening doors for them, etc etc and they never "give" anything to you, that's not a balanced relationship. I'm not a fan of the whole "alpha" thing but I think as women we get the idea that some relationships are unhealthy and have poor boundaries. We've learned to not let humans walk all over us. Well, that applies to dogs too. Always giving and never asking anything in return creates a messed up relationship that can go ugly, depending on the personality of the dog. And certainly doesn't create an atmosphere of respect. aGain, not fear, not "domination" but respect. I respect my dogs, and I want respect from them. Watching that I keep the relationship fairly balanced is a big part of that. Probably the main or only part.  Now, when they get a bit older, and know the way things work, sure of course you can just pet them or whatever. But like with kids at the beginning of the school year, better to be firm and set the tone clearly, and then you can ease up later. My dogs as adults get on my couch, in my bed, etc but we've established a healthy relationship based on give and take by that point. So tons of love and affection are great, but balance it with reasonable expectations or you end up with the doggie equivalent of a middle aged roommate who eats your food, forgets to flush, and pays the rent late. Might be a really nice guy, but no one likes that kind of behavior.   

Amen to that! I've currently got a big bee in my bonnet about agism in general though, lol.   But, you don't look gray!  

See, he said it too, but way more concisely, lol. 

About 16 weeks or so, depending mightily on the dog, circumstances, handler's skill, etc. By that I mean a skilled handler may never need one, or a dog with a "follower" personality may never need one. A small dog probably won't NEED one but would benefit possibly. A dog that lives on acreage and never goes anywhere doesn't need one. A dog that is big, exuberant, and gets to go out and about may need one earlier than a dog that is more timid or laid back. But as a VERY general rule, 16 weeks. 

YES! Dogs are MUCH more visual, and will follow hand signals MUCH more easily than verbal cues. Which is great, but be aware of it. Because you can accidentally create "hand signals" that you don't realize you are doing, just by always holding your body a certain way. I generally "lure" dogs into position with a treat when first teaching a behavior, then I use that motion to create a hand signal and have the treat in my other hand or pocket or pouch. Once they reliably follow the hand signal I add the verbal cue. But - ALWAYS give the verbal cue a second before the hand signal when teaching the verbal cue, or they will ignore it and just follow the hand signal. They won't even notice the verbal cue otherwise. (maybe if given at the exact same time, but most people actually move their hand first, which makes the verbal part meaningless to the dog - it doesn't convey any new information so they ignore it).   

If you have the time and money, you can find online dog classes at Fenzi.com, or if you are into learning theory and have an extra $80 Kathey Sdao's lecture here is REALLY good on what operant and classical conditioning are. I don't agree with her on everything, mainly because not everyone is a professional with nothing to do but dog train and in real life not all her methods are practical, but the knowledge of the learning theory is GREAT to have. For kids and dogs. Even husbands 🙂  @Spy Car, it's the kind of "get deep into the weeds" kind of thing you might enjoy...I mean that in a good way, as someone who also loves to really dive deep into stuff. 

Free podcast that is really really good is Chad Mackin's "Something to Bark About". He's SO good about breaking complex stuff down, very humble, etc. He's also featured a bit in the documentary that you MUST watch  (you too, @Spy Car, actually you'll like it more than the OP probably, lol. You will really appreciate just how good some people are with dogs....just like it is THRILLING to watch a bird dog in the field, it's thrilling for  me anyway to watch anyone doing what they were born to do, and Dick Russel was born to work with dogs) called The Dog Man. https://www.amazon.com/Dog-Man-Dick-Russell/dp/B01MSALNP0

Thanks, Katie, I'll take a look!  I need to learn/review a lot and quick.  Really want to learn the signals (verbal and hand). 

 

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 

What happened here? 🙂 

10 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Maybe the rain will head south to you—it was not in predictions and my truck’s windows were open. Since previous days it’s been 90 and like a greenhouse .  I have some drying to do!

Really!  It's so HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT here.  Muggy.  It rained yesterday but yeah still muggy!  It added to it. 

8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes. It's for communication, not yank and crank (with exceptions for big safety emergency dog running into a rattlesnake, whatever). Two fingers on the leash to barely gently tug, to communicate "no, not that way" not a "punishment". 

Thanks!

6 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

When he says walk into it he means the dog corrects himself. Some dogs are so sensitive that is even too harsh, and you have to kind of help them but yes, it's very subtle. You can find lots of youtube videos on how to fit a prong collar and how to introduce the dog to it. It is very subtle with most dogs. I like to teach them to give into pressure on it before letting them actually correct themselves, but I've done it both ways. "Give into pressure" can be taught on a buckle collar too...you pull gently in a straight line and when they give in and move in that direction IMMEdIATELY release the pressure, praise, give a treat, etc. You can start that very early. That way you overcome their natural impulse to just pull against you when you put pressure on the leash. 

Yes, YouTube tutorials are great.  Thanks! 

[sheryl]

27 minutes ago, Pen said:

Someone was shooting guns so we returned sooner than planned.  Here is my dog on his walk...   the gate ahead of us is usually closed to traffic, so where we are is very safe for an off leash walk— but it can have traffic beyond it (even quite fast and inattentive drivers coming down a steep windy hill from the left beyond the gate) so I got his attention and he’s returning to be closer to me .  This is something he’s done most days since puppyhood so he knows the routine well at this stage.  They do respond better to hand signals, but where dog was gamboling about not looking at me till I called him, voice response is extremely important.  

I didn’t tell him anything in particular, just got his attention with his name so that he turned around, stopped running toward gate (potential danger) and started back my way.  

 

(ETA had he not turned back I would have Told  him to “sit” or “platz” which are his sit and down verbal commands and the best way to stop him if there were something attracting him beyond the gate.   We worked on those with lots of distractions from when we first got him at 5 months on) 

Pretty boy!   How old is he?  And, at what age would you say he was sufficiently trained to commands?

27 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Just adding. 

It is also helpful to change directions, do 180s, and to go around objects (and people, if one has volunteers) in both directions.

I also like "walled walks" where I can start crowding a pup's space if he/she tries to get ahead of me and yielding space as he/she falls in line. This is also subtle, but effective.  That's just smart!

Bill

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

Just adding. 

It is also helpful to change directions, do 180s, and to go around objects (and people, if one has volunteers) in both directions.

I also like "walled walks" where I can start crowding a pup's space if he/she tries to get ahead of me and yielding space as he/she falls in line. This is also subtle, but effective.

Bill

Yes! Being unpredictable means doggie has to watch you to know where you are going to go next, and he can't watch you if he is pulling out in front of you 🙂

And yes to the walled walks....big fan of teaching commands initially in a hallway for that reason, actually. 

[Pen]

He is six ish.  He was born in October, but I lose track of his exact year. 

 Training is an ongoing thing.  He was pretty good most of the time (an “easy” dog) since always.  His parents were service dogs and he is extremely smart and capable.  Which is not always the easiest sort of dog even when coupled with being basically an eager to please personality.  

 If he isn’t kept involved in ongoing training and activity, he sometimes finds his own entertainment.  Did I mention jumping out of vehicle window? Did I mention that he figured out how to open it by stepping on the electric control?  

However probably what you are wanting to know: Since age 2 or so,  it is more keeping old skills sharp and adding skills now rather than dealing with a novice puppy or child dog — sort of like a dog version of high school student rather than preschooler. 

 

[sheryl]

39 minutes ago, Pen said:

He is six ish.  He was born in October, but I lose track of his exact year. 

 Training is an ongoing thing.  He was pretty good most of the time (an “easy” dog) since always.  His parents were service dogs and he is extremely smart and capable.  Which is not always the easiest sort of dog even when coupled with being basically an eager to please personality.  

 If he isn’t kept involved in ongoing training and activity, he sometimes finds his own entertainment.  Did I mention jumping out of vehicle window? Did I mention that he figured out how to open it by stepping on the electric control?  

However probably what you are wanting to know: Since age 2 or so,  it is more keeping old skills sharp and adding skills now rather than dealing with a novice puppy or child dog — sort of like a dog version of high school student rather than preschooler. 

 

LOL - window control. However, not LOL if he's out of the window more than in.  Age 2 of consistent training.  Our work is cut out for us.  I'm trying to buy some time with the breeder "J".  She said she'd give us "right of first refusal" so to speak.  I told her I need time to arrange payment, get my dh to meet puppies (we choose 1 of 2) and so on.  I told J that it could take a few days to a week or so.  I need that time to learn all of what y'all are teaching me here.  

[Pen]

Is worry about too fast eating coming from another past family dog? Or that breeder said it’s a problem with these puppies?

[Pen]

4 hours ago, sheryl said:

LOL - window control. However, not LOL if he's out of the window more than in.  Age 2 of consistent training.  Our work is cut out for us.  I'm trying to buy some time with the breeder "J".  She said she'd give us "right of first refusal" so to speak.  I told her I need time to arrange payment, get my dh to meet puppies (we choose 1 of 2) and so on.  I told J that it could take a few days to a week or so.  I need that time to learn all of what y'all are teaching me here.  

 

He only actually jumped out the one time.  At ds’s brick and mortar school.  

 

You could ask breeder about age that her pups tend to settle.  It could even be later than 2 for some Labs.      

Females IME may be a little more mature acting than males at a younger age.   Though males IME have gotten the hang of and physical control for housetraining a little earlier.   

[The Governess]

10 hours ago, Spy Car said:

I'd grant that hounds, and specially sighthounds (Afghans, Borzois, Wolfhounds, etc), have reputations for being the hardest dogs to train with sporting dogs among the easiest. Sheryl is getting a Lab (a sporting dog). Should be easy as cake.

It also can a big difference if one adopts a dog in infancy (and starts informal training early) or if one adopts pup that others have either not trained or abused. Nothing is harder than undoing bad behaviors. Kudos for taking on a challenge.

Bill

 

 

 

So I can blame my Italian greyhound puppy for my constant state of exhaustion? 😂 She’s actually come a very long way but we still have some work to do with her.

Anyone know a good collar and leash system for these guys? Their heads are so small they can easily slip right out of their collars. One of my previous IG’s has even pulled completely out of a harness when spooked. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by lovelearnandlive

[Laura Corin]

I use a flexi. Most people do in the UK.  Sometimes dogs get tangled up together. We laugh and unwind.  I keep it short near traffic and let it long near (distant) livestock and ducks. She runs off the lead a lot too. We have commands for short and long lead walking. It works fine.

[Pawz4me]

3 hours ago, lovelearnandlive said:

 

So I can blame my Italian greyhound puppy for my constant state of exhaustion? 😂 She’s actually come a very long way but we still have some work to do with her.

Anyone know a good collar and leash system for these guys? Their heads are so small they can easily slip right out of their collars. One of my previous IG’s has even pulled completely out of a harness when spooked. 

You want a Martingale type collar. Something like this, but of course much smaller for her neck. Etsy might be your best bet, since you can probably get someone to custom make one to the correct size. The typical sight hound collar is a wide, soft Martingale style. Even with one of those you need to be super alert to the dog backing out of them.

If you need a training collar then look for a micro prong. They're proportionally scaled down versions of the ones used on larger dogs. 

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, lovelearnandlive said:

 

So I can blame my Italian greyhound puppy for my constant state of exhaustion? 😂 She’s actually come a very long way but we still have some work to do with her.

Anyone know a good collar and leash system for these guys? Their heads are so small they can easily slip right out of their collars. One of my previous IG’s has even pulled completely out of a harness when spooked. 

Martingale collar, properly fitted. Often called greyhound or sighthound collars. 

4 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I use a flexi. Most people do in the UK.  Sometimes dogs get tangled up together. We laugh and unwind.  I keep it short near traffic and let it long near (distant) livestock and ducks. She runs off the lead a lot too. We have commands for short and long lead walking. It works fine.

I am sure plenty of people are not injured by them. But they ARE significantly more likely to cause serious injuries to humans and dogs, as well as scare the dog, than other forms of leash. Just because you haven't watched it happen doesn't mean it isn't a big risk factor. Trust me, when you see as many dogs in a day as I used to, you see it happen, and it isn't pretty. Rope burns on humans and dogs, seriously injured legs from the dog getting their leg tangled and then trying to run away, broken fingers, and I've seen at least half a dozen dogs running with a flexi leash banging on the ground behind them, scaring them into running more. Does every person/dog get hurt? No, but it is a real risk, and most places in the US are not set up for dogs to roam that far from their human anyway. And given that the OP is going to have an approximately 70 pound, strong dog, having a system that encourages pulling is not a great idea. Finally, when teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash they learn not to put pressure on the leash, but with a flexi there is always pressure on the leash, which can be confusing to a young dog especially. It's also a matter of physics...70 pounds of dog having a good 20 ft to build up speed then hitting the end of the leash (and they can't predict exactly where that is at that distance) WILL likely pull the human over and/or injure the dog's neck/trachea. 

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

You want a Martingale type collar. Something like this, but of course much smaller for her neck. Etsy might be your best bet, since you can probably get someone to custom make one to the correct size. The typical sight hound collar is a wide, soft Martingale style. Even with one of those you need to be super alert to the dog backing out of them.

If you need a training collar then look for a micro prong. They're proportionally scaled down versions of the ones used on larger dogs. 

What she said 🙂

[sheryl]

Well, both of our adult labs consumed their meal in about 60 seconds.  That is 1 cup dry.  And, I believe I've just heard from others the same. 

[sheryl]

10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Martingale collar, properly fitted. Often called greyhound or sighthound collars. 

I am sure plenty of people are not injured by them. But they ARE significantly more likely to cause serious injuries to humans and dogs, as well as scare the dog, than other forms of leash. Just because you haven't watched it happen doesn't mean it isn't a big risk factor. Trust me, when you see as many dogs in a day as I used to, you see it happen, and it isn't pretty. Rope burns on humans and dogs, seriously injured legs from the dog getting their leg tangled and then trying to run away, broken fingers, and I've seen at least half a dozen dogs running with a flexi leash banging on the ground behind them, scaring them into running more. Does every person/dog get hurt? No, but it is a real risk, and most places in the US are not set up for dogs to roam that far from their human anyway. And given that the OP is going to have an approximately 70 pound, strong dog, having a system that encourages pulling is not a great idea. Finally, when teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash they learn not to put pressure on the leash, but with a flexi there is always pressure on the leash, which can be confusing to a young dog especially. It's also a matter of physics...70 pounds of dog having a good 20 ft to build up speed then hitting the end of the leash (and they can't predict exactly where that is at that distance) WILL likely pull the human over and/or injure the dog's neck/trachea. 

What she said 🙂

I have a question that I'm now certifiably embarrassed to ask.   I  thought when training puppy you do keep webbed/strapped leash taut for control. No? You are suppose to train puppy using a "loose" leash?  

Edited August 22, 2019 by sheryl

[Pen]

16 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I have a question that I'm now certifiably embarrassed to ask.   I  thought when training puppy you do keep webbed/strapped leash taunt for control. No? You are suppose to train puppy using a "loose" leash?  

 

No.  A taut  for control situation only if unavoidable for some difficult circumstances/ difficult dog.  Ideally never.

 I mostly work on home training without a leash on at all.  Or for very little puppies a long clothes line sort of lightweight nylon cord to give me some longer distance ability to get hold of them.

We live in an area where leash is not legally required so most of our dogs usually don’t use them.  But yes when it’s a hunting season problem time, or an intact male dog and I know there’s a nearby female in heat or other such reasons.  And I use a leash much more than Ds does (more on that below). 

 Leashes are required within city limits (except in dog parks) afaik for all the main cities we go to.  So our dogs do wear leashes when going to city, vet, dog training  group class, or for some difficult in some way situation.  Usually, ideally, the leash is just for legality and the dog could just as well walk nicely with a human with no leash. 

Ideally and actually are not always matched up however.   

Also who in family the dog primarily belongs to makes a difference.  

The dog in pictures you have seen was primarily my son’s dog as long as ds was a homeschooler, and was much more  bonded to, responsive to, and reliable with Ds earlier than to / with me.  In some ways that’s still true.   Annoyingly, for example,  ds taught dog to jump on mama on Ds command, a command which trumps my counter command , much to Ds’s great delight.  😠

Dog will dig on command for Ds, creep along ground on his belly, find me, and do many things with and for Ds that he doesn’t do for me. 

My Ds might actually say it was at 10-14 months from his POV that dog became very reliable

and ds might even have a different view than I do of dog jumping out vehicle window at his school parking lot as having been  showing good working dog initiative  (or Lassie like behavior) to go find his boy in safe circumstances from their boy/dog POV.   But I certainly don’t want to count on that. 

They  have a whole bunch of communication/commands special things they do that are outside of my realm.

  I have more of the basic obedience sit, stay, here (hier), platz, stuff.   Plus  dog made a significant bonding shift over to me when Ds went to brick and mortar school.  

 

[Lori D.]

53 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I have a question that I'm now certifiably embarrassed to ask.   I  thought when training puppy you do keep webbed/strapped leash taunt for control. No? You are suppose to train puppy using a "loose" leash?  

Correct -- loose leash, not taut. Guide Dogs training is all about rewarding for good choices. A taut leash is controlling the dog, but not giving choice. The "collar cues" described by Ktgrok above help the puppy learn to choose loose leash walking. You stand with fixed arm pressure (so NOT pulling/jerking/tugging a dog to the position desired -- i.e., at your side) until the dog moves in that direction which naturally loosens pressure. Immediately mark behavior "Nice!" and reward. Guide Dogs has us start with "paw pad games" to get the puppy very happy about staying right at your side, because they get rewarded for it. Check out: paw pad game #1, game #2, game #3 -- these are the foundations for loose leash walking, along with "collar cue" training.

[Spy Car]

@sheryl

Good advice on leash training from Pen and Lori above.

I'd only add the advise to create enthusiasm on the walks. Make yourself more interesting to the dog than anything else. Yes, neighbors may think you are a loon, but that's what it takes.

Also a treat-on-the-nose will help focus most pups. Keep it short. Change directions frequently. Treat and praise when pup falls into the perfect position.

Leads should always be loose in an ideal situation. If they get ahead, change direction. And/or use the "walled walk" idea presented earlier.

It is a process. 

Bill

 

 

[Spy Car]

10 hours ago, lovelearnandlive said:

 

So I can blame my Italian greyhound puppy for my constant state of exhaustion? 😂 She’s actually come a very long way but we still have some work to do with her.

Anyone know a good collar and leash system for these guys? Their heads are so small they can easily slip right out of their collars. One of my previous IG’s has even pulled completely out of a harness when spooked. 

LOL.

Pawz is right (above) about specialized Martingale collars for IGs. I don't know a particular brand or source to recommend. 

Bill

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Spy Car

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

I have a question that I'm now certifiably embarrassed to ask.   I  thought when training puppy you do keep webbed/strapped leash taunt for control. No? You are suppose to train puppy using a "loose" leash?  

If the leash is taut, the dog can "feel" where you are, so has zero need to actually watch you or listen for you. In other words, can pretty much ignore you and focus on what they want to do. Or, you know, tug you down the street 🙂

If the leash is loose they have to actually keep you in their peripheral vision or at least keep one ear listening and turn back now and then to check on you (like a field dog does). That is what you want. 

Also, if they get used to the leash being loose then they can tell the difference when they forge ahead and it tightens up. There is a clear difference between "too far ahead/pressure on leash" and "in the right spot/leash is loose". If the leash is tight when they are pulling ahead, and tight when they are in the right spot, they have no good way to distinguish between those two things. 

The leash is ideally NOT about control. Only in emergencies. The leash is for safety, as a back up, and it is for communication using slight direction tugs/pressure. But once the pup does what you want you release pressure immediately. 

Also, tight leash on the neck = trachea damage and possibly thyroid damage. 

[Pen]

The exact commands, gestures, etc have been different for us than in the videos Lori D linked.  But the general procedure of treats, luring into position, marking with a sound and rewards for doing the right thing, first getting the behavior, then adding cue word and or gesture... etc etc...  that’s all the same process as I have used—with some modification depending on the dog and circumstances. All my dogs have been at least part “sporting” or part “working” breeds — and it’s a process that works well with these breeds.  And it can work even if the dog is motivated by a ball but not so much by food.  

One dog who came to me as an adult and was smartest dog I’ve ever had needed to have discussions and negotiations about everything, but he was unusual.

Also watch for things a dog does naturally and use that if possible— and also pay attention to how dog is communicating with you.   They aren’t good at speaking English words, but are very good at using their bodies, ears, tails, and sounds to communicate.   And they start understanding and interpret a lot (words, actions, clothes, car keys...) very quickly. 

You can largely decide what you want and need in your circumstances and then figure out how to teach the dog.  For example, you might want standard obedience, or maybe you want the dog to walk on your right rather than left.  You might want sitting as default when stopped (usual) or standing (more common for service dogs).  You might want to do a special activity with dog, or just have a pet...

[Pen]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

Well, both of our adult labs consumed their meal in about 60 seconds.  That is 1 cup dry.  And, I believe I've just heard from others the same. 

 

Not totally sure about this, but my guess would be that if your puppy is food motivated you can slow the eating down by using her daily food allotment as her training rewards.  If she’s not food motivated she probably won’t dangerously gulp down her meals too fast. 

I think because my “Labs” have been mixed breed or with field lines background, except for the one dog who did scarf down food and also nonfood,  they haven’t eaten in  that too fast way.  

Or maybe because they’ve had part raw food diet and kibble is not interesting. 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Pen

[Pawz4me]

13 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

 A wide martingale type? Maybe that would work? Do you already have one of these? If your dog can pull out of a harness, this one might be safer.

https://www.amazon.com/EXPAWLORER-Martingale-Collars-Heavy-Collar/dp/B071RGLS2R/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=wide%2Bmartingale%2Bcollars%2Bfor%2Bdogs&qid=1566497988&s=gateway&sr=8-4&th=1

That's exactly the type of collar she needs, but it'll probably need to be much smaller than those sizes. It can be hard to find such a small size from one of the commercial manufacturers, but people on Etsy make them. Here's one seller with excellent reviews I just found with a quick search (there are lots of others).

[Pawz4me]

5 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

 

Oooh, I see. The Italian greyhounds are the smaller size. I can see that might be harder to find. And I didn't look to see that you'd already recommended it. Anyway, those wide collars really are beautiful. 🙂

I've never been a huge collector of collars, but if I had a sight hound I'd have to add a budget category for them. 

[Pen]

@sheryl also on things like puppy collar (or later adult dog collar) you need to consider your own exact circumstances.  

We are in rugged PNW countryside where a dog can get a collar snagged on something, so for a usual daily wear ID collar, I prefer one where the collar is more likely to break or come off (nylon web, plastic quick release snap lock buckle), rather than a more stout collar and buckle, with which the dog could more easily be choked while playing, or drowned if snagged while swimming.    Or have an unfortunate situation with another dog’s mouth getting stuck in collar during play and not having a quick release. 

Obviously that could be different in a city environment, or with a more sedate mostly indoors, city or trail walking and running dog, where dog getting lost, stolen etc might be a higher risk—and accidental choking a low risk.  

When we lived in Los Angeles area with a Golden Retriever, she used a sturdy round leather collar (to not snarl in long fur) with a metal buckle (to not be able to break).  I think that dog had just the one good collar her whole adult life.  

Otoh, Most of our country dogs have used up, lost, broken, multiple collars.  And lost multiple license tags.  I now write their ID numbers on their country collars with ballpoint pen or fabric marker. 

NB   We almost always take collars off prior to crating, for similar snag avoidance reasons, particularly in wire crates.  Not so much if in a plastic air travel crate or a fabric camping crate. 

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

I've never been a huge collector of collars, but if I had a sight hound I'd have to add a budget category for them. 

Same. I almost want to get a sighthound just for the collars, lol. 

[Spy Car]

45 minutes ago, Pen said:

@sheryl also on things like puppy collar (or later adult dog collar) you need to consider your own exact circumstances.  

We are in rugged PNW countryside where a dog can get a collar snagged on something, so for a usual daily wear ID collar, I prefer one where the collar is more likely to break or come off (nylon web, plastic quick release snap lock buckle), rather than a more stout collar and buckle, with which the dog could more easily be choked while playing, or drowned if snagged while swimming.    Or have an unfortunate situation with another dog’s mouth getting stuck in collar during play and not having a quick release. 

Obviously that could be different in a city environment, or with a more sedate mostly indoors, city or trail walking and running dog, where dog getting lost, stolen etc might be a higher risk—and accidental choking a low risk.  

When we lived in Los Angeles area with a Golden Retriever, she used a sturdy round leather collar (to not snarl in long fur) with a metal buckle (to not be able to break).  I think that dog had just the one good collar her whole adult life.  

Otoh, Most of our country dogs have used up, lost, broken, multiple collars.  And lost multiple license tags.  I now write their ID numbers on their country collars with ballpoint pen or fabric marker. 

NB   We almost always take collars off prior to crating, for similar snag avoidance reasons, particularly in wire crates.  Not so much if in a plastic air travel crate or a fabric camping crate. 

 

For heavy brush, where a dog might get snagged, I prefer a reinforced plastic collar with a center ring. These are designed to allow half the collar to flip so a dog can (hopefully) free itself. I don't like collars that break away easily.

Also see the riveted brass plates for ID. These never come off and do not get snagged. A collar like this is less than $10 at Gun Dog Supply.

https://www.gundogsupply.com/orange-day-glow-center-ring-collar.html#

Bill

 

 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

For heavy brush, where a dog might get snagged, I prefer a reinforced plastic collar with a center ring. These are designed to allow half the collar to flip so a dog can (hopefully) free itself. I don't like collars that break away easily.

Also see the riveted brass plates for ID. These never come off and do not get snagged. A collar like this is less than $10 at Gun Dog Supply.

https://www.gundogsupply.com/orange-day-glow-center-ring-collar.html#

Bill

 

 

 

That’s certainly less expensive than ours!  I may get one as a back up or swimming collar.  

Ours is comfortable as a mostly 24/7/365 collar though.  

https://www.orvis.com/p/personalized-reflective-collar/3Y83

(we have had riveted brass plates go bad too— but not from GDS, maybe GDS’s  are different) 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Pen

[sheryl]

8 hours ago, Pen said:

 

No.  A taut  for control situation only if unavoidable for some difficult circumstances/ difficult dog.  Ideally never.

 I mostly work on home training without a leash on at all.  Or for very little puppies a long clothes line sort of lightweight nylon cord to give me some longer distance ability to get hold of them.

We live in an area where leash is not legally required so most of our dogs usually don’t use them.  But yes when it’s a hunting season problem time, or an intact male dog and I know there’s a nearby female in heat or other such reasons.  And I use a leash much more than Ds does (more on that below). 

 Leashes are required within city limits (except in dog parks) afaik for all the main cities we go to.  So our dogs do wear leashes when going to city, vet, dog training  group class, or for some difficult in some way situation.  Usually, ideally, the leash is just for legality and the dog could just as well walk nicely with a human with no leash. 

Ideally and actually are not always matched up however.   

Also who in family the dog primarily belongs to makes a difference.  

The dog in pictures you have seen was primarily my son’s dog as long as ds was a homeschooler, and was much more  bonded to, responsive to, and reliable with Ds earlier than to / with me.  In some ways that’s still true.   Annoyingly, for example,  ds taught dog to jump on mama on Ds command, a command which trumps my counter command , much to Ds’s great delight.  😠

Dog will dig on command for Ds, creep along ground on his belly, find me, and do many things with and for Ds that he doesn’t do for me. 

My Ds might actually say it was at 10-14 months from his POV that dog became very reliable

and ds might even have a different view than I do of dog jumping out vehicle window at his school parking lot as having been  showing good working dog initiative  (or Lassie like behavior) to go find his boy in safe circumstances from their boy/dog POV.   But I certainly don’t want to count on that. 

They  have a whole bunch of communication/commands special things they do that are outside of my realm.

  I have more of the basic obedience sit, stay, here (hier), platz, stuff.   Plus  dog made a significant bonding shift over to me when Ds went to brick and mortar school.  

 

Thank you!

8 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Correct -- loose leash, not taut. Guide Dogs training is all about rewarding for good choices. A taut leash is controlling the dog, but not giving choice. The "collar cues" described by Ktgrok above help the puppy learn to choose loose leash walking. You stand with fixed arm pressure (so NOT pulling/jerking/tugging a dog to the position desired -- i.e., at your side) until the dog moves in that direction which naturally loosens pressure. Immediately mark behavior "Nice!" and reward. Guide Dogs has us start with "paw pad games" to get the puppy very happy about staying right at your side, because they get rewarded for it. Check out: paw pad game #1, game #2, game #3 -- these are the foundations for loose leash walking, along with "collar cue" training.

Thanks, Lori!  Bear with me on this - so on a walk you're saying nice and giving an edible reward (take rewards on walk)?   I feel ridiculous asking this and maybe I'm overthinking this - are  y'all saying treats and rewards are different?  Rewards can be verbal, physical pat or food, right?  Treats are food?  How will the dog know the difference?  I'm embarrassed asking that.  

6 hours ago, Spy Car said:

@sheryl

Good advice on leash training from Pen and Lori above.

I'd only add the advise to create enthusiasm on the walks. Make yourself more interesting to the dog than anything else. Yes, neighbors may think you are a loon, but that's what it takes.

Also a treat-on-the-nose will help focus most pups. Keep it short. Change directions frequently. Treat and praise when pup falls into the perfect position.

Leads should always be loose in an ideal situation. If they get ahead, change direction. And/or use the "walled walk" idea presented earlier.

It is a process. 

Bill

 

 

Treat on nose? When?  How do you use the "walled walk" on a walk outside?   LOL! 

6 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

If the leash is taut, the dog can "feel" where you are, so has zero need to actually watch you or listen for you. In other words, can pretty much ignore you and focus on what they want to do. Or, you know, tug you down the street 🙂

If the leash is loose they have to actually keep you in their peripheral vision or at least keep one ear listening and turn back now and then to check on you (like a field dog does). That is what you want. 

Also, if they get used to the leash being loose then they can tell the difference when they forge ahead and it tightens up. There is a clear difference between "too far ahead/pressure on leash" and "in the right spot/leash is loose". If the leash is tight when they are pulling ahead, and tight when they are in the right spot, they have no good way to distinguish between those two things. 

The leash is ideally NOT about control. Only in emergencies. The leash is for safety, as a back up, and it is for communication using slight direction tugs/pressure. But once the pup does what you want you release pressure immediately. 

Also, tight leash on the neck = trachea damage and possibly thyroid damage. 

That's good teaching, Katie.  Thanks.  

To everyone, thanks for correcting my spelling LOL!  (taut, I don't know why I put the "n" in there)

[Spy Car]

17 minutes ago, sheryl said:

 

Treat on nose? When?  How do you use the "walled walk" on a walk outside?   LOL! 

 

"Treat on nose" is an expression. Not precisely literal. Just means having reward in hand, maybe even dropping down near dog's nose (to keep attention high), then popping the treat and praise when they are heeling optimally. Then reload. No balancing act involved, One is just "baiting" the dog.

A walled walk outside require a walkway that has a fence or wall or building that allows one to crowd the space of a dog that tries to get ahead. Someone (Katie?) mentioned hallways earlier for indoor work. Any solid structure or fence suffices.

Bill 

[Spy Car]

49 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

That’s certainly less expensive than ours!  I may get one as a back up or swimming collar.  

Ours is comfortable as a mostly 24/7/365 collar though.  

https://www.orvis.com/p/personalized-reflective-collar/3Y83

(we have had riveted brass plates go bad too— but not from GDS, maybe GDS’s  are different) 

I have a leather Filson collar from GDS (not cheap) with brass fittings as a "formal" collar and the reinforced plastic one with stainless steel for the muck. Both have the center ring as a safety feature. Chester had a nickel allergy as a pup. Stainless fittings are now hard to find. I have a back up.

Leather is pretty but the reinforced plastic is a great material for dog collars.

I'm of the school of thought that it is not a good idea to put a dog's name on a collar. Only contact info.

Bill

Edited August 23, 2019 by Spy Car

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

   8 hours ago,  Lori D. said: 

Correct -- loose leash, not taut. Guide Dogs training is all about rewarding for good choices. A taut leash is controlling the dog, but not giving choice. The "collar cues" described by Ktgrok above help the puppy learn to choose loose leash walking. You stand with fixed arm pressure (so NOT pulling/jerking/tugging a dog to the position desired -- i.e., at your side) until the dog moves in that direction which naturally loosens pressure. Immediately mark behavior "Nice!" and reward. Guide Dogs has us start with "paw pad games" to get the puppy very happy about staying right at your side, because they get rewarded for it. Check out: paw pad game #1, game #2, game #3 -- these are the foundations for loose leash walking, along with "collar cue" training.

Thanks, Lori!  Bear with me on this - so on a walk you're saying nice and giving an edible reward (take rewards on walk)?   I feel ridiculous asking this and maybe I'm overthinking this - are  y'all saying treats and rewards are different?  Rewards can be verbal, physical pat or food, right?  Treats are food?  How will the dog know the difference?  I'm embarrassed asking that.  

So sorry, my inaccurate/loose use of words were confusing. For the Guide Dog puppy training method, "reward" is used in two ways. First, as a verb, "reward" is the action of following up marking good behavior with a piece of kibble* as part of the training method. "Reward" in Guide Dogs training is also used as a noun -- it specifically means that piece of kibble given as a reward for the marked behavior.

* note = Guide Dogs only use kibble to reward marked behavior; other methods/groups might use a "high value treat", in which case "treat" is used as both a noun -- the valued food -- and as a verb -- action of giving the valued food in response to puppy offering the desired behavior.

So the Guide Dogs method is:
1. puppy chooses to do a good behavior
2. you "catch" the puppy in the act
3. you "mark" the behavior with a marker word ("Nice!") -- some groups/methods use a clicker
4. you "reward" the puppy with the food reward of a piece of kibble

And, because we are sloppy humans (LOL!) confusingly, we sometimes say the less accurate word "treat" instead of "reward" -- so "treat" as a verb to mean "give the puppy a piece of kibble after marking the behavior.

Praise or encouragement is just that -- verbal praise or a pat to encourage the puppy that it is doing well and to keep it up. Verbal praise or a pat is not used as a reward to mark behavior -- the reward given for marked ("Nice!") behavior is always a piece of kibble (in Guide Dogs training). Marking behavior and rewarding are part of the training phase; praise/encouragement are more part of the "keep up the good work" aspect of working with a puppy at any time. 

 

...so on a walk you're saying nice and giving an edible reward (take rewards on walk)? ...

Yes. When we are puppy sitting one of the Guide Dog puppies (and that might be age 8 weeks, up to 18 months old), I strap on a bait bag when actively doing a training session, and stuff a handful of kibble in my pocket for the rest of the time to have handy to be able to "mark" the desired behaviors ("Nice!") and follow up with the reward (a piece of kibble).

As mentioned up-thread by someone, the puppy is working for some of their daily ration of food. And as the puppy grows more trained with a behavior, you reduce the frequency of reward. To start off, you act like a "Pez dispenser" (rapid rate of food reward) when the puppy is standing quietly with a loose leash next to you. Then as the puppy "gets" the idea over a number of training sessions, you start slowing rate and amount of reward. Eventually, no reward or very infrequent reward is needed -- the desired behavior has become an automatic behavior.

Also -- I highly recommend starting off doing all of your training in short bursts *in your house*. I would not take a puppy beyond the back yard until several months old and you've been working on the "collar cues" and "loose leash training" for awhile. There are SOOO many distractions (smells! sights! sounds! motion!) for a dog out in the neighborhood or at a park or on any kind of outing that it will be FAR harder on the dog to figure out what you want with training in the early stages while all of those distractions are going on. Guide Dogs is strong on "helping your puppy succeed" -- so, starting the puppy off in an environment with few distractions to be able to really learn the desired behaviors, slowly reduce amount of rewarding as the puppy "gets it", and then slowly introducing new environments and working on desired behaviors simultaneously -- which will likely mean initially upping the amount of rewarding until the puppy understands that "oh, that behavior we did back at the house... we're doing that here, too, in this exciting park." 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Lori D.

[ktgrok]

51 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Guide Dogs is strong on "helping your puppy succeed" -- so, starting the puppy off in an environment with few distractions to be able to really learn the desired behaviors, slowly reduce amount of rewarding as the puppy "gets it", and then slowly introducing new environments and working on desired behaviors simultaneously -- which will likely mean initially upping the amount of rewarding until the puppy understands that "oh, that behavior we did back at the house... we're doing that here, too, in this exciting park." 

Yes!

There are the three D's  when training:

Distraction

Distance

Duration

Only increase one of those at a time. So if you are working on "stay" and you have done it in the living room with no distractions for 15 seconds while you are 3 feet away and the dog is reliable with that, then you can EITHER increase the distraction (so add another person in the room, or you making silly movements, or whatever) OR duration (having the dog hold the stay for 20 seconds) OR distance (you walk farther way, but quickly, so the time is the same but the distance is greater). Same with recall (coming when called). Don't increase distractions (doing it outside) and distance (how far the dog is away from you) at the same time. In fact, you may need to DECREASE the other two D's when increasing one, at least the first time or two. 

[Pen]

 

A guide dog puppy learning loose leash walking

 

An older dog learning loose leash walking    - very Different method (I think prong collar is less a problem for throat than a web collar, but this guy prefers web martingale I think)

 

 

Both ways can work

Age difference and goals difference can matter 

the guide dog will be learning to exercise some judgement eventually

the other dog seems to be learning to be happy to do what handler wants quickly so as to be rehome-able in hours or days

[sheryl]

18 hours ago, Pen said:

The exact commands, gestures, etc have been different for us than in the videos Lori D linked.  But the general procedure of treats, luring into position, marking with a sound and rewards for doing the right thing, first getting the behavior, then adding cue word and or gesture... etc etc...  that’s all the same process as I have used—with some modification depending on the dog and circumstances. All my dogs have been at least part “sporting” or part “working” breeds — and it’s a process that works well with these breeds.  And it can work even if the dog is motivated by a ball but not so much by food.  

One dog who came to me as an adult and was smartest dog I’ve ever had needed to have discussions and negotiations about everything, but he was unusual.

Also watch for things a dog does naturally and use that if possible— and also pay attention to how dog is communicating with you.   They aren’t good at speaking English words, but are very good at using their bodies, ears, tails, and sounds to communicate.   And they start understanding and interpret a lot (words, actions, clothes, car keys...) very quickly. 

You can largely decide what you want and need in your circumstances and then figure out how to teach the dog.  For example, you might want standard obedience, or maybe you want the dog to walk on your right rather than left.  You might want sitting as default when stopped (usual) or standing (more common for service dogs).  You might want to do a special activity with dog, or just have a pet...

This made me laugh.  I pictured that in my head - reasoning as one would with a toddler.  🙂 What kind of dog was he?  What do you mean - watch for things....?  How many basic commands are there?   Sit, come, stay, lay down.  

[sheryl]

15 hours ago, Pen said:

@sheryl also on things like puppy collar (or later adult dog collar) you need to consider your own exact circumstances.  

We are in rugged PNW countryside where a dog can get a collar snagged on something, so for a usual daily wear ID collar, I prefer one where the collar is more likely to break or come off (nylon web, plastic quick release snap lock buckle), rather than a more stout collar and buckle, with which the dog could more easily be choked while playing, or drowned if snagged while swimming.    Or have an unfortunate situation with another dog’s mouth getting stuck in collar during play and not having a quick release. 

Obviously that could be different in a city environment, or with a more sedate mostly indoors, city or trail walking and running dog, where dog getting lost, stolen etc might be a higher risk—and accidental choking a low risk.  

When we lived in Los Angeles area with a Golden Retriever, she used a sturdy round leather collar (to not snarl in long fur) with a metal buckle (to not be able to break).  I think that dog had just the one good collar her whole adult life.  

Otoh, Most of our country dogs have used up, lost, broken, multiple collars.  And lost multiple license tags.  I now write their ID numbers on their country collars with ballpoint pen or fabric marker. 

NB   We almost always take collars off prior to crating, for similar snag avoidance reasons, particularly in wire crates.  Not so much if in a plastic air travel crate or a fabric camping crate. 

 

Pen, thanks for this.  We live in the city in Charlotte, NC.  But, we're fairly active going on hikes in the Ap mnts., kayaking, etc.  But, we're home a lot too! 🙂  We are looking at wire crates now.   Tips - noted!  Appreciate it! 

[sheryl]

15 hours ago, Spy Car said:

For heavy brush, where a dog might get snagged, I prefer a reinforced plastic collar with a center ring. These are designed to allow half the collar to flip so a dog can (hopefully) free itself. I don't like collars that break away easily.

Also see the riveted brass plates for ID. These never come off and do not get snagged. A collar like this is less than $10 at Gun Dog Supply.

https://www.gundogsupply.com/orange-day-glow-center-ring-collar.html#

Bill

 

 

@Bill Thanks! I watched the video - what an excellent idea for a collar!  And, it is nylon webbed coated in plastic so it should be sturdy.  

[sheryl]

12 hours ago, Pen said:

 

That’s certainly less expensive than ours!  I may get one as a back up or swimming collar.  

Ours is comfortable as a mostly 24/7/365 collar though.  

https://www.orvis.com/p/personalized-reflective-collar/3Y83

(we have had riveted brass plates go bad too— but not from GDS, maybe GDS’s  are different) 

I'm beginning to think that it's not unusual to get 2 collars based on activity level and circumstances of dog - adult dog.  Much to consider.  Thanks!

[sheryl]

11 hours ago, Spy Car said:

"Treat on nose" is an expression. Not precisely literal. Just means having reward in hand, maybe even dropping down near dog's nose (to keep attention high), then popping the treat and praise when they are heeling optimally. Then reload. No balancing act involved, One is just "baiting" the dog.

A walled walk outside require a walkway that has a fence or wall or building that allows one to crowd the space of a dog that tries to get ahead. Someone (Katie?) mentioned hallways earlier for indoor work. Any solid structure or fence suffices.

Bill 

Ahhh, got it.  I was thinking literal -  lol!  How often (duration of each and number of series in a day) do you train a puppy?  Thanks for clarifying the fence situation. 

[Pawz4me]

34 minutes ago, sheryl said:

This made me laugh.  I pictured that in my head - reasoning as one would with a toddler.  🙂 What kind of dog was he?  What do you mean - watch for things....?  How many basic commands are there?   Sit, come, stay, lay down.  

It depends somewhat on your lifestyle and your definition of basic. At a minimum I'd add leave it/drop it and wait to your list. To me both leave it/drop it and wait are potentially life saving commands. Leave it/drop can be used if the dog picks up a dropped medication or something unrecognizable/undesirable (and therefore potentially dangerous) on a walk. I use wait to mean freeze in your tracks and don't move a muscle until I give the release command, which can be a life saver if the dog slips his leash or you drop it or he dashes out the door, etc.  If really basic is okay with you then you can maybe get away with subbing an absolutely rock solid sit or down for wait. My preference is for separate commands. It seems to me that it's easier for most very excited dogs to comply with wait than with sit/down.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Pawz4me

[sheryl]

11 hours ago, Lori D. said:

So sorry, my inaccurate/loose use of words were confusing. For the Guide Dog puppy training method, "reward" is used in two ways. First, as a verb, "reward" is the action of following up marking good behavior with a piece of kibble* as part of the training method. "Reward" in Guide Dogs training is also used as a noun -- it specifically means that piece of kibble given as a reward for the marked behavior.

* note = Guide Dogs only use kibble to reward marked behavior; other methods/groups might use a "high value treat", in which case "treat" is used as both a noun -- the valued food -- and as a verb -- action of giving the valued food in response to puppy offering the desired behavior.

So the Guide Dogs method is:
1. puppy chooses to do a good behavior
2. you "catch" the puppy in the act
3. you "mark" the behavior with a marker word ("Nice!") -- some groups/methods use a clicker
4. you "reward" the puppy with the food reward of a piece of kibble

And, because we are sloppy humans (LOL!) confusingly, we sometimes say the less accurate word "treat" instead of "reward" -- so "treat" as a verb to mean "give the puppy a piece of kibble after marking the behavior.

Praise or encouragement is just that -- verbal praise or a pat to encourage the puppy that it is doing well and to keep it up. Verbal praise or a pat is not used as a reward to mark behavior -- the reward given for marked ("Nice!") behavior is always a piece of kibble (in Guide Dogs training). Marking behavior and rewarding are part of the training phase; praise/encouragement are more part of the "keep up the good work" aspect of working with a puppy at any time. 

 

Yes. When we are puppy sitting one of the Guide Dog puppies (and that might be age 8 weeks, up to 18 months old), I strap on a bait bag when actively doing a training session, and stuff a handful of kibble in my pocket for the rest of the time to have handy to be able to "mark" the desired behaviors ("Nice!") and follow up with the reward (a piece of kibble).

As mentioned up-thread by someone, the puppy is working for some of their daily ration of food. And as the puppy grows more trained with a behavior, you reduce the frequency of reward. To start off, you act like a "Pez dispenser" (rapid rate of food reward) when the puppy is standing quietly with a loose leash next to you. Then as the puppy "gets" the idea over a number of training sessions, you start slowing rate and amount of reward. Eventually, no reward or very infrequent reward is needed -- the desired behavior has become an automatic behavior.

Also -- I highly recommend starting off doing all of your training in short bursts *in your house*. I would not take a puppy beyond the back yard until several months old and you've been working on the "collar cues" and "loose leash training" for awhile. There are SOOO many distractions (smells! sights! sounds! motion!) for a dog out in the neighborhood or at a park or on any kind of outing that it will be FAR harder on the dog to figure out what you want with training in the early stages while all of those distractions are going on. Guide Dogs is strong on "helping your puppy succeed" -- so, starting the puppy off in an environment with few distractions to be able to really learn the desired behaviors, slowly reduce amount of rewarding as the puppy "gets it", and then slowly introducing new environments and working on desired behaviors simultaneously -- which will likely mean initially upping the amount of rewarding until the puppy understands that "oh, that behavior we did back at the house... we're doing that here, too, in this exciting park." 

Lori,  THANKS so much!  Very easy to understand this! OK, You "mark" an action/command with a reward (usually kibble or high value treat) and intersperse that verbal praise "nice" and physical encouragement - pat on head.  I think that's correct!  Yes, you, Bill, Katie and others are suggesting to make the training world small (inside house) and slowly expand the perimeter.  It will be easier to gain their attention inside our home rather than compete for attention among the stray cats, birds and deer that frequent our neighborhood, street, personal property (yes, we're in the city but there are several natural habitats for deer and they roam, so we frequently see them.  Two or three does have given birth in our next door neighbor's yard and once Thanksgiving about 5 years ago we saw a huge buck in all his glory (huge rack) proudly walking up the street from our neighbor's yard across the street).  

[sheryl]

10 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes!

There are the three D's  when training:

Distraction

Distance

Duration

Only increase one of those at a time. So if you are working on "stay" and you have done it in the living room with no distractions for 15 seconds while you are 3 feet away and the dog is reliable with that, then you can EITHER increase the distraction (so add another person in the room, or you making silly movements, or whatever) OR duration (having the dog hold the stay for 20 seconds) OR distance (you walk farther way, but quickly, so the time is the same but the distance is greater). Same with recall (coming when called). Don't increase distractions (doing it outside) and distance (how far the dog is away from you) at the same time. In fact, you may need to DECREASE the other two D's when increasing one, at least the first time or two. 

Katie, thanks!  Where do y'all get your training material.  I know you are/were (?) a vet tech so you "shadowed" in-house (clinic)?   This thread has exploded and I haven't had time to look at very many links but am going to do that.   How many sessions of training during the day for a puppy?  And how long each session?  Say from now when our puppy will be about 10 weeks to 6 months?  I don't even know how long it should take to train a dog - one year?  Then, I know from what you all are saying it becomes less formal structured training and more reinforcement.  Is that right?

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Katie, thanks!  Where do y'all get your training material.  I know you are/were (?) a vet tech so you "shadowed" in-house (clinic)?   This thread has exploded and I haven't had time to look at very many links but am going to do that.   How many sessions of training during the day for a puppy?  And how long each session?  Say from now when our puppy will be about 10 weeks to 6 months?  I don't even know how long it should take to train a dog - one year?  Then, I know from what you all are saying it becomes less formal structured training and more reinforcement.  Is that right?

Patricia McConnel has a good book on puppies I think, or there are videos, etc. I was at one point a Certified Professional Dog Trainer (CPDT) and the organization that does that credential has a list of books on their website I think? APDT is the organization. I also attended countless hours of continuing education via veterinary conferences, etc etc. 

As for how much, make it part of your life and do frequent sessions but only for a few minutes at a time. A puppy can learn "sit" in a few minutes usually. then you can start asking for and reinforcing sits throughout the day. So lots and lots of training, but in brief spurts. 

Even now, if I'm at the park with my dogs I will call them back to me, give them a scratch and tell them to go play at least 2 times before we actually leave, so as to practice "come". But it takes a few seconds. 

Oh, and that's the other command you can start right away - come! You can hold out a piece of kibble an inch away from the dog and said "come" in a happy voice and the dog will come to you and get it. So for the first several days you do it from literally one or two steps away, then gradually increase. NEVER at this point call the dog to come when it will feel like punishment - so away from a toy, from the yard, to come get a bath, etc. Later with a well trained dog you can, but in the beginning it should always be positive. 

[sheryl]

8 hours ago, Pen said:

 

A guide dog puppy learning loose leash walking

 

An older dog learning loose leash walking    - very Different method (I think prong collar is less a problem for throat than a web collar, but this guy prefers web martingale I think)

Pen, THANK YOU so much for these videos.  They were VERY helpful!  I watched both in their entirety and will be watching them again and other videos.  I have much to learn quickly.  I'm kind of pushing the breeder off by a week to give us time to learn "in detail" this information and practice.  Also, need to buy food, treats, etc.  

Both ways can work

Age difference and goals difference can matter 

the guide dog will be learning to exercise some judgement eventually

the other dog seems to be learning to be happy to do what handler wants quickly so as to be rehome-able in hours or days

 

[sheryl]

45 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

It depends somewhat on your lifestyle and your definition of basic. At a minimum I'd add leave it/drop it and wait to your list. To me both leave it/drop it and wait are potentially life saving commands -- leave it/drop it if the dog picks up a dropped medication or something unrecognizable on a walk, and I use wait to mean freeze in your tracks and don't move a muscle until I give the release command, which can be a life saver if the dog slips his leash or you drop it or he dashes out the door, etc.  If really basic is okay with you then you can maybe get away with subbing an absolutely rock solid sit or down for wait but my own preference is for separate commands. It seems to me that it's easier for most very excited dogs to comply with wait than with sit/down.

OK, that makes sense.  I like "wait", "leave it" and "drop it".  And, "let's go".   And, yes, we've had those situations; dogs are curious so the more commands that are safety-focused the better.

[sheryl]

32 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Patricia McConnel has a good book on puppies I think, or there are videos, etc. I was at one point a Certified Professional Dog Trainer (CPDT) and the organization that does that credential has a list of books on their website I think? APDT is the organization. I also attended countless hours of continuing education via veterinary conferences, etc etc. 

As for how much, make it part of your life and do frequent sessions but only for a few minutes at a time. A puppy can learn "sit" in a few minutes usually. then you can start asking for and reinforcing sits throughout the day. So lots and lots of training, but in brief spurts. 

Even now, if I'm at the park with my dogs I will call them back to me, give them a scratch and tell them to go play at least 2 times before we actually leave, so as to practice "come". But it takes a few seconds. 

Oh, and that's the other command you can start right away - come! You can hold out a piece of kibble an inch away from the dog and said "come" in a happy voice and the dog will come to you and get it. So for the first several days you do it from literally one or two steps away, then gradually increase. NEVER at this point call the dog to come when it will feel like punishment - so away from a toy, from the yard, to come get a bath, etc. Later with a well trained dog you can, but in the beginning it should always be positive. 

OK!  I'm thinking too big/extreme.  I need to focus on smaller steps as demonstrated in video's Pen sent and shorter but more frequent sessions of training.   Is there an "order" in which to train?  You mentioned sit and then come.  Is there a sequence which naturally follows?

[ktgrok]

13 minutes ago, sheryl said:

OK!  I'm thinking too big/extreme.  I need to focus on smaller steps as demonstrated in video's Pen sent and shorter but more frequent sessions of training.   Is there an "order" in which to train?  You mentioned sit and then come.  Is there a sequence which naturally follows?

First, don't put the breeder off. Go this weekend. The dog is at an ideal age to be learning and the best breeder still may not be doing the intense housebreaking, etc that you will. Get puppy this weekend. 

Second - biggest thing is housebreaking. If you focus ONLY on that for the next week, that's fine. 

Teaching puppy his/her name and "come" are my next big things. Come is life saving, so a focus for me. Plus, dogs that don't come when called are a personal pet peeve of mine, nothing annoys me more than my dog blowing me off when I call them. So basically, get the dog, set aside 1/3 of it's food for training. Give it food when it pees, and when you say it's name. That's enough to start. 

Then have dog walk one step toward you and get a treat. So "Billy, come!" said in a happy voice and then hold out a treat an inch away and billy reaches for it and gets it. When you notice Billy is perking up and looking to you as soon as you say "come" you can move a step farther away. This can also be done with a group of the family, all sitting on the floor in a small circle, puppy in the middle. Each person takes a turn saying Billy's name and come and gives him a treat/food. Everyone else ignores puppy. Gradually you can increase the circle and then have people in different rooms of the house even. 

Sit is easy to add in but not needed at first - it's just EASY and fun. I'm sure if you google "how to lure a sit" you can find it. But start with the stuff above - some people have trouble getting the lure just right with sit so don't frustrate yourself and the puppy the first few days. 

You can also google "crate games" and find fun stuff to do to teach puppy to like the crate. 

So 1. Get puppy, 2. focus on crate/potty training 3.name/come

Most of all, start bonding with that puppy now, don't wait. 

 

[Pen]

16 hours ago, sheryl said:

This made me laugh.  I pictured that in my head - reasoning as one would with a toddler.  🙂 What kind of dog was he?  What do you mean - watch for things....?  How many basic commands are there?   Sit, come, stay, lay down.  

 

I don’t know what he was.  

...

My dog just “told” me he needed to go out.  He started by making whiny noise and nose nudging me (5:50am and I was in bed.)   Then I asked him what he wanted   “Need to go outside?” Tail wagging excitedly and doggy yes sounds and movements.  “Okay.  I’ll be there in a moment.” He jumped off bed and raced downstairs to wait by door. I got there not long after —as soon as I could, but he’s old enough to hold it for a moment — and opened it for him.  Other dogs have had other ways of letting me know that sort of thing.  One dog would take a person’s hand gently in her mouth and lead where she wanted to go.  The brilliant dog who might or might not have been a Japanese Mastiff would lift his leg pantomiming a need to pee and nose nudge ...  

 

 

Basic really important commands: sit, (lie) down, stay, come, heel or nice walk of some sort, leave it (not to pick up some dangerous or foul or off limits object), sit /stay (or down) at a distance 

others very useful for example for vet trip or exam: load (into vehicle), stand, roll over (for underside exam), do duty (or some term that indicates pitying (eta that was supposed to be potty, not pity!) in an acceptable area

Then typically with a Labrador a fetch command and a release like “out” or “give”   Maybe if swimming, “shake” put on cue so as not to have it happen right next to someone who wants to stay dry...     

a lot of these aren’t carefully trained for like the basics are, but develop over time

 

Working border collies (and sled dogs) can do most of what  they do with just a few basics of right or left, forward or stop or drop, and sometimes speed or creep variations

and then there are tons of daily useful communications “go to your bed” “crate” “time to go home” “let’s go”  “play tug - ready, set, tug” “upstairs” “bedtime” “be quiet” “manners” “ move” “bathtub” “gently” ...

 

 

our current dog offered things like turning lights on and off which could have been put on cue if useful.  I decided it was more annoying than helpful and discouraged him...

a previous dog liked to pull a cart, or child on a skateboard... 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Pen

[sheryl]

50 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

First, don't put the breeder off. Go this weekend. The dog is at an ideal age to be learning and the best breeder still may not be doing the intense housebreaking, etc that you will. Get puppy this weekend. 

Second - biggest thing is housebreaking. If you focus ONLY on that for the next week, that's fine. 

Teaching puppy his/her name and "come" are my next big things. Come is life saving, so a focus for me. Plus, dogs that don't come when called are a personal pet peeve of mine, nothing annoys me more than my dog blowing me off when I call them. So basically, get the dog, set aside 1/3 of it's food for training. Give it food when it pees, and when you say it's name. That's enough to start. 

Then have dog walk one step toward you and get a treat. So "Billy, come!" said in a happy voice and then hold out a treat an inch away and billy reaches for it and gets it. When you notice Billy is perking up and looking to you as soon as you say "come" you can move a step farther away. This can also be done with a group of the family, all sitting on the floor in a small circle, puppy in the middle. Each person takes a turn saying Billy's name and come and gives him a treat/food. Everyone else ignores puppy. Gradually you can increase the circle and then have people in different rooms of the house even. 

Sit is easy to add in but not needed at first - it's just EASY and fun. I'm sure if you google "how to lure a sit" you can find it. But start with the stuff above - some people have trouble getting the lure just right with sit so don't frustrate yourself and the puppy the first few days. 

You can also google "crate games" and find fun stuff to do to teach puppy to like the crate. 

So 1. Get puppy, 2. focus on crate/potty training 3.name/come

Most of all, start bonding with that puppy now, don't wait. 

 

Katie,  I wish we could go this weekend but the transferred money in the form a check doesn't arrive until mid-next week.  Additionally, I need to buy puppy accessories: crate, toys, fleece for crate floor, collar/leash, etc. and of course, food, treats, etc.  See, I was signed up with a rescue group and found a beautiful 3-5 yo female lab but dh said he wanted a puppy.  We had 2 purebred lab over the years and our Ragdoll rescued cat from California who we think was a purebred without testing.  I was ok with getting rescue but had to start over again finding a puppy.  It doesn't have to be purebred but dh and I like the "look" (bone density, etc), stature of an English purebred.  So, I tracked down the former president of our region's lab/retr club - she has been breeding/judging for decades.  I talked with another woman who stopped breeding Eng purebreds after about 40 years and she was also a judge in some capacity.   Very qualified people.  The one who retired after 40 years was the one I spoke to first.  She gave me the name of the woman who was former president - her name is C.  C said she will have a litter in Sept but doesn't know gender yet and number of a color will be somewhat of a mystery (to be exact).  She referred me to this breeder J of our puppy.  All of this happened within 2 weeks or so and it's time consuming to text, email, talk to these people and still try to get something done around our house, work part-time, etc.  So, no complaints here.  We have a lot of personal projects going on such as purging our attic and dealing with junk that is busting at the seams.   I need this extra week to get a little more of a handle on buying things for puppy and clearing some areas of our house.  It seems we have an on-going Goodwill stack to run, etc.  

 

 

 

[sheryl]

20 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I don’t know what he was.  He seems to have been from an all too common situation of an abandoned dog.  (We live in a rural area where people have a tendency to bring unwanted dogs leave them and drive away—or even shoot them.  If unwanted and especially a lot during economic recession.  I don’t want to encourage this at all to anyone reading this because it’s a really bad thing to do, but people probably think the dog will find a home and the reality is that quite a few do.  But lots don’t. ) An AKC dog judge I knew thought he was a Japanese Mastiff, like one of these https://www.dogmal.com/tosa-inu/ — which seems unlikely to me that such a rare dog would find its way to me, but she said they were being puppy milled around then and it was possible. I think he may have been some sort of a GSD and Mastiff mix. 

My dog just “told” me he needed to go out.  He started by making whiny noise and nose nudging me (5:50am and I was in bed.)   Then I asked him what he wanted   “Need to go outside?” Tail wagging excitedly and doggy yes sounds and movements.  “Okay.  I’ll be there in a moment.” He jumped off bed and raced downstairs to wait by door. I got there not long after —as soon as I could, but he’s old enough to hold it for a moment — and opened it for him.  Other dogs have had other ways of letting me know that sort of thing.  One dog would take a person’s hand gently in her mouth and lead where she wanted to go.  The brilliant dog who might or might not have been a Japanese Mastiff would lift his leg pantomiming a need to pee and nose nudge ...  

 

 

Basic really important commands: sit, (lie) down, stay, come, heel or nice walk of some sort, leave it (not to pick up some dangerous or foul or off limits object), sit /stay (or down) at a distance 

others very useful for example for vet trip or exam: load (into vehicle), stand, roll over (for underside exam), do duty (or some term that indicates pitying (eta that was supposed to be potty, not pity!) in an acceptable area

Then typically with a Labrador a fetch command and a release like “out” or “give”   Maybe if swimming, “shake” put on cue so as not to have it happen right next to someone who wants to stay dry...     

a lot of these aren’t carefully trained for like the basics are, but develop over time

 

Working border collies (and sled dogs) can do most of what  they do with just a few basics of right or left, forward or stop or drop, and sometimes speed or creep variations

and then there are tons of daily useful communications “go to your bed” “crate” “time to go home” “let’s go”  “play tug - ready, set, tug” “upstairs” “bedtime” “be quiet” “manners” “ move” “bathtub” “gently” ...

 

 

our current dog offered things like turning lights on and off which could have been put on cue if useful.  I decided it was more annoying than helpful and discouraged him...

a previous dog liked to pull a cart, or child on a skateboard... 

Pen, pretty dog!  And, I hope your mentioning that story brings awareness that it's wrong to do that, of course!  That's sad.  

So, it's really understanding and reading your dog's unique personality so to speak.  Well, I'm beginning to see this will take time and consistency as well as commitment. 

Thanks for the list of commands. 

 

 

 

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

... OK, You "mark" an action/command with a reward (usually kibble or high value treat) and intersperse that verbal praise "nice" and physical encouragement - pat on head.  I think that's correct! 

Almost there Sheryl! (LOL)

You FIRST "mark" desired behavior with "Nice!" (or other "marker" word/sound/clicker). THEN you reward (kibble -- or high value food treat if using that). Another way to think about it: the "marking" is instant feedback for the dog and draws their attention to what they did. The reward is the positive reinforcement follow-up, (and if it takes you a minute to wrestle it out of your bag or pocket, it's okay, because the dog knows it is coming, and stays attentive to you).

Also, if you are using "Nice!" as your marker word, then you ONLY ever use that word for marking behavior, followed by the kibble reward, and NEVER use otherwise -- so never as part of the verbal praise. For verbal praise, you can say whatever ELSE you want in that encouraging tone of voice ("what a good dog1" "you are my smart girl!" "good __(dog's name___").

[Pen]

On “mark” of a behavior—what LoriD said. 

Friends of ours were big into dog agility competition and used clickers to be able to “mark” something the dog did at a distance away where the treat could not be delivered right away—say the dog was going over a slide or through a tunnel.  The dog would know what exact moment something was a wanted behavior because of the click and could then run over for her treat...

There are many videos and books about this sort of training - here’s one: