Sad news...reports are coming in that missing Iowa student Mollie Tibbetts has been found dead

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

So, Quill et al, we are saying that because some are ‘politicizing’ this (as though that never happens with crime, heh) and she is pretty we shouldn’t talk about it?  So, all the crimes brought up in the BLM movement or, say, the Watts family murders didn’t also get enormous attention, for legitimate reasons?

 

The level of publicity and heinousness of the crime are irrelevant.  And there are plenty of crimes I can think of where both individuals are white and legal. Deflections help nobody.

No, I am not saying don’t talk about it. I’m saying it should not be used as a political tool to attempt to drum up support for keeping all those bad, murderous Mexicans out of this country. 

Also, “pretty white people”does generate tons more sympathy from all the pretty white people who can imagine that being our daughter/sister/friend. It absolutely does get framed as if a particular crime is somehow worse because the victim was appealing and white.

I remember thinking this when that pretty little British girl was abducted from her hotel room years ago while her family was on holiday. It was endless newsreels about this sad family looking for their precious little girl. Not to say it isn’t tragic - it IS! I just cannot help but think how much different it would have been were it a low-income, brown-skinned single mom whose little girl was snatched from the McDonald’s playland while mom went around the corner for ten minutes to have a smoke. But since it was a beautiful, well-off family of white people who went to dinner and left their kids in the hotel room with the door ajar, it was just a pure, understandable bad coincidence. 

[unsinkable]

Typical. I follow the rules and don't bring up politics but the usual people who don't care to follow the rules, do. And don't tell me immigration isn't political.

To ahead and slam me. Get all your friends to come in, too. That would be typical, too. I don't care. 

I started this thread before anything was even known about Mollie's killer, before it was even confirmed officially that she had been found. 

It absolutely kills me that people take their first opportunity to turn it to their political agenda.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

Typical. I follow the rules and don't bring up politics but the usual people who don't care to follow the rules, do. And don't tell me immigration isn't political.

To ahead and slam me. Get all your friends to come in, too. That would be typical, too. I don't care. 

I started this thread before anything was even known about Mollie's killer, before it was even confirmed officially that she had been found. 

It absolutely kills me that people take their first opportunity to turn it to their political agenda.

Me too, but that is what is so maddening. It was not made political *here* (well, not here first.) What I saw, first thing on FB, the day she was found and the perp was identified, was calls for “build a wall” and similar rhetoric. Immediately, that was what the story became. The story was immediately about his immigration status. 

[Selkie]

For those who are questioning why other missing people don't get as much attention, it seems to me that the blame for that lies with the mainstream media. The general public doesn't have any knowledge of most missing people because the media chooses not to cover those stories.

[TechWife]

FWIW, I don’t think this is a political issue. Murder is a moral issue. Now we value people is a moral issue. 

[TechWife]

Race and Gender: Media Bias in the Coverage of Missing Persons 

http://themissingny.nycitynewsservice.com/part-two/race/

[TechWife]

14 minutes ago, Quill said:

Me too, but that is what is so maddening. It was not made political *here* (well, not here first.) What I saw, first thing on FB, the day she was found and the perp was identified, was calls for “build a wall” and similar rhetoric. Immediately, that was what the story became. The story was immediately about his immigration status. 

Yes, and the point I’ve been trying to make is that it isn’t about his immigration status, it’s about the assault and murder of a woman. 

[SamanthaCarter]

15 minutes ago, Selkie said:

For those who are questioning why other missing people don't get as much attention, it seems to me that the blame for that lies with the mainstream media. The general public doesn't have any knowledge of most missing people because the media chooses not to cover those stories.

It’s a strange phenomenon. What gets the media’s attention in these cases? Is is the families’ prowess at publicity? Are they connected in a way that will help thier pleading for information get on the front page? The ones that we hear about are such a tiny fraction of the whole, you do have to wonder...

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Selkie said:

For those who are questioning why other missing people don't get as much attention, it seems to me that the blame for that lies with the mainstream media. The general public doesn't have any knowledge of most missing people because the media chooses not to cover those stories.

Except I would say, “the ANY-stream media.” IMO, “mainstream media” is code for all media that isn’t Fox News or other right-leaning media sources that frame things in much the same manner as FN. 

Right-leaning media sources do their part to make stories stand out when they are attracted to some feature of it that suits their purposes, in exactly the manner as the media usually labled “mainstream.” 

[Guest]

Tangentially, I was just thinking about this question (what becomes “known” news vs. what doesn’t) when I was watching the morning, local news and there was a casual report about two (more) homicides in NW Baltimore overnight. No picture of the victim; no picture of the perpetrator. Really, not much comment except more people were killed with guns in the city. Just another day in paradise...

[TechWife]

2 minutes ago, SamanthaCarter said:

It’s a strange phenomenon. What gets the media’s attention in these cases? Is is the families’ prowess at publicity? Are they connected in a way that will help thier pleading for information get on the front page? The ones that we hear about are such a tiny fraction of the whole, you do have to wonder...

 

Such big questions, aren’t they? How does one get the attention of the media? Beauty? Money? Skill? Connection? All of these things, and many others, are privileges people have in varying degrees. Why does media value beauty, money, skill, connections? Or maybe the question should be why those traits make some people more valuable to the media than other traits? 

 

[Selkie]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

Except I would say, “the ANY-stream media.” IMO, “mainstream media” is code for all media that isn’t Fox News or other right-leaning media sources that frame things in much the same manner as FN. 

Right-leaning media sources do their part to make stories stand out when they are attracted to some feature of it that suits their purposes, in exactly the manner as the media usually labled “mainstream.” 

My definition of mainstream media is any news source that is widely viewed or read, and that certainly includes Fox News.

[TechWife]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

I don't think that pointing out a failure of the system is inappropriate when it appears that is what happened.  

Except that the system didn’t commit the crime. Most immigrants don’t commit murder. Most undocumented immigrants don’t commit murder. Most documented immigrants don’t commit murder. Most citizens don’t commit murder. People who commit murders do so regardless of their immigration status. It is t a cause/effect scenario. Perhaps we can call it a crime of opportunity in some aspects. He would not have had an opportunity to murder this particular woman had he not been in the US. Neither did anyone else who wasn’t in the US at the time. Would he have murdered someone else if he had been in another country? Would the murder be any less appalling if it were in another country? If so, why? If not, why not? Those are moral questions. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Selkie said:

My definition of mainstream media is any news source that is widely viewed or read, and that certainly includes Fox News.

That may be, but do you know that commentators on Fox News speak of “the mainstream meadia”as though that is someone else? Other RW commentators (Rush Limbaugh, for example) do this as well. They do not seem to think they are “the mainstream media” whom they are criticizing. 

[TechWife]

14 minutes ago, Selkie said:

My definition of mainstream media is any news source that is widely viewed or read, and that certainly includes Fox News.

Does FOX consider itself to be mainstream media, though? I thought they tried, at least at some point, to distinguish themselves as covering things the other networks don’t cover. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Of COURSE there is bias in media coverage.  It's just not the only factor.  For example, missing kids tear at everyone's heart strings.  Yet, often, it's the young adults that get more attention.  

 

 

I don't think that pointing out a failure of the system is inappropriate when it appears that is what happened.  

What Tech Wife said, and also, not when it is applied as a non-sequitor of, “that’s why we need that damn wall.” A wall between us and Mexico does not eliminate murder. And a lavk of a wall is not why she was murdered. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Does FOX consider itself to be mainstream media, though? I thought they tried, at least at some point, to distinguish themselves as covering things the other networks don’t cover. 

They do not. At least, the commentators and personalities on their shows do not consider themselves mainstream media. 

Sean Hannity, for instance, constantly talks about “the mainstream media” negatively. He does not believe he is in that category. 

[Selkie]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

That may be, but do you know that commentators on Fox News speak of “the mainstream meadia”as though that is someone else? Other RW commentators (Rush Limbaugh, for example) do this as well. They do not seem to think they are “the mainstream media” whom they are criticizing. 

Nope, I don't know that because despite being fairly conservative on many issues, I never watch Fox News or listen to Rush Limbaugh. In general, I find most media to be pretty idiotic these days. Fox is definitely part of the MSM, imo, because they are one of the most watched news sources in the country.

[Guest]

Just now, Selkie said:

Nope, I don't know that because despite being fairly conservative on many issues, I never watch Fox News or listen to Rush Limbaugh. In general, I find most media to be pretty idiotic these days. Fox is definitely part of the MSM, imo, because they are one of the most watched news sources in the country.

Something we agree upon. ?

FN is frequently on in my presence, not through my choice. I often hear Rush in the same manner. My noise-cancelling headphones can only be used for so long...

[Katy]

She got so much coverage not only because she was pretty and white and had a captivating smile, but because her dad works in media or publicity or something like that.  They are a media savvy family.

I think it's safe to say Mollie would not want this to be an immigration issue.  Her social media had a decidedly liberal bent.  Having said that, every time there is a heinous murder that touches on a political topic, it is used for political purposes.  The left uses school shootings in the exact same way, so it's not at all surprising that the right is using this as another example of murderers.

This guy actually had a couple of legitimate claims to stay here, if he had bothered with the paperwork.  He was brought as a child.  He is the father of an anchor baby (though by local reports they are broken up due to gf cheating on him and ex gf and daughter have moved a couple hours away).

I was most concerned with the idea that he felt entitled to Mollie's body, but now that I heard that he dumped ex for cheating and I've seen some pictures of ex and Mollie side by side I wonder if it wasn't more of an issue of misplaced rage.

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

As far as I am concerned......the wall isn't really relevant.  It's not about the wall and I do agree that "the wall" is a completely irrlevant issue in this case.

 

But I don't think the immigration system is the same as "the wall."

I don’t either, and I am in no way against sensible immigration regulations. But that isn’t how it gets politicized. It gets politicized as being about the wall. And that rhetoric, at least some of the time, comes directly from the top level of govt. 

[Selkie]

7 minutes ago, Quill said:

Something we agree upon. ?

FN is frequently on in my presence, not through my choice. I often hear Rush in the same manner. My noise-cancelling headphones can only be used for so long...

That would drive me nuts. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin - they're all pompous windbags, imo. I do like Tucker Carlson very much, but I only watch his show once in a blue moon because my evenings are always busy with other things.

[Guest]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

Well, yes, I don't disagree.

 

But that has little to do with whether or not his immigration status is relevant to the situation.  

I do think it is an aspect of the case. But I don’t think it should be what the case is *about.* I don’t object to it being part of the story if he is an illegal immigrant. *Being* part of the story I don’t object to. What I wish, if I could wave a magic wand and have something be different, is that it would not immediately get picked up as being what this case is *about.* 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Selkie said:

That would drive me nuts. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin - they're all pompous windbags, imo. I do like Tucker Carlson very much, but I only watch his show once in a blue moon because my evenings are always busy with other things.

I’m not saying it doesn’t drive me nuts...

It’s not for nothing that I have noise-cancelling headphones to begin with. I bought them in 2016. ?

[TechWife]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:TuBut if the system had worked, would the crime had been committed?  I don't care what "most undocumented immigrants" do or don't do.

.The fact is, according to the laws of our cournty............................this guy should not have been at this place at this time.  

And that is why his immigration status matters, in this case.  In cases where the illegal immigrant murders his wife, while the murder is still murder....the immigration status isn't as relevant to the story.  

Well, that’s what I asked at the end of the post you quoted. That and follow up questions. I thought they were good follow up questions. 

For me to think his immigration status is relevant, I’d have to believe that if he’d had proper documentation or was a naturalized citizen, he would not have committed the crime. I don’t believe that. I also don’t believe that he only murdered someone because he was in the US. 

[Selkie]

10 minutes ago, Katy said:

She got so much coverage not only because she was pretty and white and had a captivating smile, but because her dad works in media or publicity or something like that.  They are a media savvy family.

I think it's safe to say Mollie would not want this to be an immigration issue.  Her social media had a decidedly liberal bent.  Having said that, every time there is a heinous murder that touches on a political topic, it is used for political purposes.  The left uses school shootings in the exact same way, so it's not at all surprising that the right is using this as another example of murderers.

This guy actually had a couple of legitimate claims to stay here, if he had bothered with the paperwork.  He was brought as a child.  He is the father of an anchor baby (though by local reports they are broken up due to gf cheating on him and ex gf and daughter have moved a couple hours away).

I was most concerned with the idea that he felt entitled to Mollie's body, but now that I heard that he dumped ex for cheating and I've seen some pictures of ex and Mollie side by side I wonder if it wasn't more of an issue of misplaced rage.

 

Another reason this story got so much coverage is because she disappeared from a tiny little all-American town in the middle of Iowa. I think that the media saw that as a more compelling mystery than if she had disappeared from say, an urban area.

[Carol in Cal.]

Personallly I had been watching this story for quite a while, because violence against women is an issue that I have always had to deal with, big time.  I’ve brought this up here many times before.  I”ve often thought about how much healthier and stronger a lot of women in this country would be if they could range as freely and fearlessly as men *as a group* do.  There was similar story up in the Dakotas a few years back, when the oil boom had changed the society suddenly and with difficulty.  A woman was abducted and murdered while she was out running.  In both cases this was in an area where blessedly women were unaccustomed to worrying about doing that, and so it was a double betrayal in a sense.  I think that that is the reason for a lot of the attention.  Certainly it was the reason *I* followed these stories so closely.  

Is the current story being overly politicized?  You bet.  Does that mean we should avoid talking about some of the issues that politicizers have seized upon?  No, not really.  We don’t have to froth at the mouth along with them.  I’m not happy to see someone make this about a wall, which I think is misguided and ridiculous, but I’m also not happy to see someone else trivialize a murder compared with separating famillies at the border—something I deeply oppose but which I consider to be less serious than cold-blooded stalking murder, although it *is* serious.

[SamanthaCarter]

Did someone in this thread make this a wall issue? I don’t follow the news really, so I can’t tell if you are talking about the news or the thread. 

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Did someone in this thread make this a wall issue? I don’t follow the news really, so I can’t tell if you are talking about the news or the thread. 

Someone in the thread decried people kneejerking into a wall issue elsewhere online.  Which I decry also, actually.

ETA:  But in the post that I think you might be referring to, the one immediately above yours, I was referring to remarks by public officials specifically.

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Carol in Cal.

[Carol in Cal.]

I guess in general I see the elephant in the living most of the time as being the assumption that women are kind of fair game.  Not that anyone is assuming this in this thread, quite the contrary, but that underlies so much of our lives, and it’s wrong and detrimental on a lot of levels.  And I think that that needs to be reiterated a lot, because it’s so common it’s like the air, and folks don’t always even notice it.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Carol in Cal.

[Katy]

25 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I guess in general I see the elephant in the living most of the time as being the assumption that women are kind of fair game.  Not that anyone is assuming this in this thread, quite the contrary, but that underlies so much of our lives, and it’s wrong and detrimental on a lot of levels.  And I think that that needs to be reiterated a lot, because it’s so common it’s like the air, and folks don’t always even notice it.

 

Can you rephrase this? I agree with you on so much, but I'm afraid I don't follow this one.

[TechWife]

Never mind - I'm just repeating myself.

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by TechWife

[Carol in Cal.]

27 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Can you rephrase this? I agree with you on so much, but I'm afraid I don't follow this one.

Violence against women is so common that it’s almost not remarked on, but rather assumed.  That’s pretty much what I meant, and it’s one of the reasons I point this out.