Elder parent care - Where to start?

[skimomma]

11 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

BTW Sometimes medications or dehydration can make it seem like people are having cognitive decline that could be fixed by changing medications or achieving better hydration. 

 

Yes!  A few years ago, I called her.  It was not my normal call time but something was bothering me and I felt like I needed to call.  So, I did.  She was extremely confused and don't know who I was.  After several attempts, I learned that she was sick and had been in bed for days.  To avoid having to get up to use the bathroom, she had quit drinking water.  Mom was a nurse so she KNOWS how important hydration is, especially when sick.  But something slipped.  I was very alarmed and told her she needed to go to the ER right away and that she clearly could not drive herself.  My sister only lived an hour away at the time so I called her to run down to get her.  Meanwhile, I had the phone number of a neighbor who went in to sit with her until my sister arrived.

It turned out to be a minor illness but extreme dehydration.  She had to be admitted into the hospital and ended up having to go back a second time after she was released.  Her cognitive functioning was affected for weeks.  I shudder to think if I had not happened to call......

 

[Pen]

48 minutes ago, skimomma said:

We don't want to do anything mom is not comfortable with.  If she does not want help, that is fine.  Or if she has help all set up, that is also fine.  Great, actually.  We are just very concerned about her now that memory issues seem to be increasing rapidly, she brings up financial struggles often, and we feel that there is no one "on the ground" watching out for her.  

 She is not the type to play games which is why I worry when she seems evasive about these issues.  If I thought there was a significant chance that she just wanted privacy or was worried that we would step on her wishes, I would completely drop it.  I feel very much though that this is more based in embarrassment and/or confusion.  

 

I think you need to try to talk with her in a compassionate way. Emphasize that you are not judging her  That you are worried that you want to help 

And perhaps include that you would be relieved if her financial advisor has a POA if you feel that way  

I think that a Fran compassionate talk should include bringing up her hydration, and other possible physical things that could be affecting her.

I think you should speak frankly with her about your  concerns about her memory. 

Something could be going on like that she has some incontinence which is embarrassing to her so she doesn’t want to mention it to anyone maybe not even medical people,  and that could be leading her to drink less water / fluids so as not to wet bed or need an adult diaper, leading to a downward spiral. 

She may need to move to the part of her retirement community that gives more assistance and she may need help paring down for a move to smaller quarters. 

Since she brings up financial struggles with you, why not ask her what the nature of the struggle is?  Maybe she doesn’t have enough money. Maybe she needs autopay set up. Maybe she needs a smaller unit at her community... or something else. 

Maybe things are Okay but she feels emotionally stressed and anxious, perhaps even due to memory problems. Or maybe they aren’t okay and help from the financial advisor is needed.  Anxiety itself could cause memory to be worse in its own downward spiral. 

You can also tell other relevant people —such as her long time friends or a doctor—that you are worrying about her and why, without trying to get them to give you information. 

[Pen]

If she really cannot recall April visit this may be irrelevant, but potentially another thing to be frank about might be what happened then, because reading from outside, as you described it, it sounded like you and your sister were very pushy about seeing the Will. 

If your mother described to friends that her two daughters whom she rarely sees (and who live paycheck to paycheck) came to visit and joined forces to try to see her Will, it could sound like the 2 of you have bad motives. Could sound like the two of you Are interested in her money.  Interested in what the two of you stand to gain when she dies. 

[Pen]

54 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

Personally, I'd be concerned about the fact that she is still driving. Might want to think on that. 

 

 

Yes, but,

it sounded like memory has been a lifelong problem and other people seem to be getting rides with mother on a frequent basis and possibly / probably not experiencing scary driving.  As well, she is in a Retirement Community and is active in church, such that there are probably a lot of people in contact with the mother on a daily or weekly basis to observe driving, whereas OP has comparatively little contact. Even the examples of increase in declining memory may be in part due to limited contact.  

 

  Causing a problem for the mother regarding driving if it is not clearly warranted is not likely to improve trust. 

 

[skimomma]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

If she really cannot recall April visit this may be irrelevant, but potentially another thing to be frank about might be what happened then, because reading from outside, as you described it, it sounded like you and your sister were very pushy about seeing the Will. 

If your mother described to friends that her two daughters whom she rarely sees (and who live paycheck to paycheck) came to visit and joined forces to try to see her Will, it could sound like the 2 of you have bad motives. Could sound like the two of you Are interested in her money.  Interested in what the two of you stand to gain when she dies. 

 

I think it sounds worse than it was....although I see where you are coming from and I can also see how friends who do not know us well might be concerned about this possibility.  I won't go into the details about the will discussion or how we came to go on the wild goose chase except to say that my mom was the one to ask me to help her find her safe deposit box.  She is concerned that there are other important things in there, but she is not sure what.  She was distressed when we left that we had not resolved the key issue and that it appears there might be a second box.  She was also distressed that she just could not remember....anything really.  She now indeed has no recollection of the visit.

The friends do seem suspicious of us.  They are suspicious of everyone, frankly, including the complex company where mom lives, her doctors, and my aunts and uncles.  My mom once gave me an old car.  It had been sitting in her garage with flat tires and dry-rotted belts.  It had been my grandfather's and had been sitting for over 5 years.  She just wanted it gone.  Dh took a look and determined he could fix it up enough to take it home and we drove it for a few years.  It was 20+ years old and in very bad shape.  The friends, specifically the wife, has reminded me about the time mom "gave us a car" every time we see them.  I was very thankful for the car and offered to pay my mom for it so there is obviously a disconnect from what actually happened and what they think happened.  My mom has offered us substantial cash gifts at various times over the years (not since she started indicating financial trouble).  This is usually when we were buying a house, car, or facing major home repairs.  In every single case, we have refused.  On top of that, my sister and I have been paying for all of her airfare for visits for years now and paid for the expensive and lengthy clean out of her big house and moving expenses.  There is zero indication that we are gold digging.  Last we knew, mom wanted any assets she had to go to her church.  Sister and I discussed that that is what we would do if she does pass and no will is found, assuming there are any assets left.  

We are not poor.  We just don't have enough extra income to fully support my mom should she run out of money.

[skimomma]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

Yes, but,

it sounded like memory has been a lifelong problem and other people seem to be getting rides with mother on a frequent basis and possibly / probably not experiencing scary driving.  As well, she is in a Retirement Community and is active in church, such that there are probably a lot of people in contact with the mother on a daily or weekly basis to observe driving, whereas OP has comparatively little contact. Even the examples of increase in declining memory may be in part due to limited contact.  

 

  Causing a problem for the mother regarding driving if it is not clearly warranted is not likely to improve trust. 

 

 

This is actually very much a concern for us and another topic mom absolutely does not want to discuss.  We have decided to not address it at the moment but I worry about it pretty much all of the time.  She has frequent "little mishaps" as she calls them.  She has somehow avoided a major accident, at least recently, but tends to have fender benders and parking lot related incidents on a regular basis.  Her car looks like it has been to war.  She has told me that she does currently limit her driving to places she is very familiar with as she admits she gets lost easily.  We know this is one of her biggest currencies with the other people in her complex so are loath to less with it.  The public transportation is not very good and her church and the ILs are quite a drive away.  Losing her car would really be a terrible hit.  We are torn.  This is one area in which her friends are also concerned.  

[Pen]

Okay. That clarifies a lot. 

 

[skimomma]

I do think she will be receptive to a more general discussion of what, if any, help she wants from us.  I do confess that we have just assumed she wanted our help.  The only indication that I have actually ever had from her that she might want/expect our help was a few times when she stated she expected one of us to move closer when she needs more help.  It has been a while since she has said this and she may even have been joking.  Not sure.  I am a very matter-of-fact, get-it-done kind of person.  It is part of why we are not close.  I am not a touchy-feely person and neither is my sister.  Mom actually likes her son-in-laws better because of this:)  My BIL has actually had the most luck talking to her but I feel he borders on too pushy.

Edited August 7, 2018 by skimomma

[Pen]

1 minute ago, skimomma said:

 

This is actually very much a concern for us and another topic mom absolutely does not want to discuss.  We have decided to not address it at the moment but I worry about it pretty much all of the time.  She has frequent "little mishaps" as she calls them.  She has somehow avoided a major accident, at least recently, but tends to have fender benders and parking lot related incidents on a regular basis.  Her car looks like it has been to war.  She has told me that she does currently limit her driving to places she is very familiar with as she admits she gets lost easily.  We know this is one of her biggest currencies with the other people in her complex so are loath to less with it.  The public transportation is not very good and her church and the ILs are quite a drive away.  Losing her car would really be a terrible hit.  We are torn.  This is one area in which her friends are also concerned.  

 

Possibly starting with reasons she may be having trouble that are fixable like meds and hydration might help.

And talking to her directly. 

Also make sure she has her seat position  at a correct level. Seniors sometimes lose height but don’t get seats adjusted to compensate. 

If the friends are concerned and have a more open ability to communicate with her, maybe they could take the lead in this area. 

[skimomma]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Possibly starting with reasons she may be having trouble that are fixable like meds and hydration might help.

And talking to her directly. 

Also make sure she has her seat position  at a correct level. Seniors sometimes lose height but don’t get seats adjusted to compensate. 

If the friends are concerned and have a more open ability to communicate with her, maybe they could take the lead in this area. 

 

Friends have been vocal about it with mom.  For years now, actually.  Mom gets very VERY upset when they do.  They are pretty much the only people (person, I should say....the husband does not say much about anything, ever) I have seen mom get "mad" at.  This is partly why we have not touched that topic.

Dh takes her car out every time he is there.  He travels in her area for work on a semi-frequent basis so often drops in for short visits.  Her car is often in ill-repair so dh likes to drive it around the block to check it out, check tires/fluids, and let her know if something is not right.  He writes down exactly what he feels needs to be addressed along with his contact info so the garage she takes it to can call him.  She does like to drive up high and her seat appears to be on the highest setting, according to dh.  He also works on her computer every time he is in town.  She can usually make it two weeks before she does something to it and it "stops working."  Luckily, the complex has computers for free use in the main building so she does have access between fixes.

I suspect meds might be a contributing factor.  

[Pen]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

 

Friends have been vocal about it with mom.  For years now, actually.  Mom gets very VERY upset when they do.  They are pretty much the only people (person, I should say....the husband does not say much about anything, ever) I have seen mom get "mad" at.  This is partly why we have not touched that topic.

Dh takes her car out every time he is there.  He travels in her area for work on a semi-frequent basis so often drops in for short visits.  Her car is often in ill-repair so dh likes to drive it around the block to check it out, check tires/fluids, and let her know if something is not right.  He writes down exactly what he feels needs to be addressed along with his contact info so the garage she takes it to can call him.  She does like to drive up high and her seat appears to be on the highest setting, according to dh.  He also works on her computer every time he is in town.  She can usually make it two weeks before she does something to it and it "stops working."  Luckily, the complex has computers for free use in the main building so she does have access between fixes.

I suspect meds might be a contributing factor.  

 

 

Does she she have a current license and car insurance?  

[skimomma]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

Does she she have a current license and car insurance?  

 

As far as I know, she does.  She travels by plane and does not have a passport, so I am sure she has a valid license.  And she would have been cited for not having insurance during one of her frequent accidents so if she does not, it would be a recent development.  Her car is too old and damaged to bother with collision but last I checked, she did have the baseline liability insurance.  She is in a no fault state.  She dealt with my grandfather when it was time for him to stop driving.  She was never successful at getting him to give it up voluntarily.  There just came a point when he could no longer get insurance due to his many MANY accidents.  That is what ended his driving.  He was over 90.  

She has said in the past that when her current car either dies or becomes too expensive to fix, that she plans to give up driving.  But she now occasionally talks about leasing a car.  So, I don't know what her plans are there.  She has gotten lost enough a few times to scare her but the accidents don't seem to.  I am irritated that the complex she lives in does not have any transportation options.   This seems like a far more important service than some of the others they do provide.  I hope I am wrong, but I think a lot of her "friends" from her complex will be much less "friendly" when she does not have a car to drive them places.  

[prairiewindmomma]

20 minutes ago, skimomma said:

 

As far as I know, she does.  She travels by plane and does not have a passport, so I am sure she has a valid license.  And she would have been cited for not having insurance during one of her frequent accidents so if she does not, it would be a recent development.  Her car is too old and damaged to bother with collision but last I checked, she did have the baseline liability insurance.  She is in a no fault state.  She dealt with my grandfather when it was time for him to stop driving.  She was never successful at getting him to give it up voluntarily.  There just came a point when he could no longer get insurance due to his many MANY accidents.  That is what ended his driving.  He was over 90.  

She has said in the past that when her current car either dies or becomes too expensive to fix, that she plans to give up driving.  But she now occasionally talks about leasing a car.  So, I don't know what her plans are there.  She has gotten lost enough a few times to scare her but the accidents don't seem to.  I am irritated that the complex she lives in does not have any transportation options.   This seems like a far more important service than some of the others they do provide.  I hope I am wrong, but I think a lot of her "friends" from her complex will be much less "friendly" when she does not have a car to drive them places.  

IME, some cognitive decline seems to impair logical decision making.  My MIL has been doctor shopping trying to find someone who will sign off on her renewing her DL even though she can't have a coherent conversation and has other serious medical issues. She gets lost often, has minor accidents, and has no plans on giving up driving even if she has no license and no insurance.  Logic isn't part of her world right now. 

Keep in mind that anxiety often comes out as anger.  The fact that she hoards is a tip that she likely is also dealing with some pretty severe anxiety.

[skimomma]

45 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 

Keep in mind that anxiety often comes out as anger.  The fact that she hoards is a tip that she likely is also dealing with some pretty severe anxiety.

 

I agree.  I have noticed that she does one of two things when nervous.  Rarely, she lashes out in anger.  I have only really seen this directed at her close friend (the wife) or once, and only once, at me during the two weeks that we cleaned out her large house in preparation for the sale.  More often she masks nervousness by talking a mile a minute.  Hence, the long repeated stories.  She is nervous speaking to me and sister.  She does calm down after a few hours when we are together, in person, but every phone conversation is crazy-pants.  I have to schedule my calls.  It is a two-hour minimum investment and I have to be very very patient (or had a LOT of wine).

She has been a hoarder as far back as I can remember.  As a kid I didn't really get it.  I just understood our house had a bit more clutter.  When my dad was alive, he was able to curb some of it and did most of the cleaning.  I was no longer living at home when he passed away.  It was shortly after that that the hoarding blossomed into a much bigger issue and that it became apparent that mom was not into cleaning.  My poor sister was still quite young and did what she could to clean the very large and very stuffed house.  Sister could never have friends over and is still quite bitter.  She has much less tolerance for the hoarding than I do.  I do not blame her.  I suspect mom's hoarding tendencies just got worse after such a traumatic event in her life (the unexpected death of my father).  As you can imagine, sister and I are so afraid of hoarding that we often get rid of things we actually need.  I almost panic when a knickknack makes its way into my house.  This is part of the complications in our collective relationships with each other.

Her hoarding is not completely under control right now but it is actually the most under control it has been in a long time.  It has never returned to the level it was right before she moved ten years ago.  It took two full weeks and too many dumpsters to count to clear her house enough for the deep cleaning and repairs needed to put it on the market.  That was, until now, the most stressful period for my sister and me (and our poor husbands).  The friend (wife) monitored our every move during the clean up and for every two trips to the dumpster we made, she made one trip back with "reclaimed" and "perfectly good" items that we had "thoughtlessly tossed."  Luckily, she took these "treasures" to her own car.  BTW, friend has four (yes FOUR) uninhabitable houses stuffed floor to ceiling with "treasures."   Mom still "collects" but while the main rooms in her house are full of clutter and not very clean, you can walk through the rooms.  As in, (sigh), she has kept it to the minimum condition the complex requires for emergency access purposes.  The bedrooms and garage are currently packed and not accessible.  It is mostly garbage.  Literally, garbage:(  

There are so many issues here.  Which is why we have been pretty terrible at addressing anything.  It is just so so much.  And so many emotions.

Mom does not have a high opinion of mental health meds, in general, so I would be surprised if that is part of her current med regimen and I doubt anyone could talk her into it.

[Pen]

I am sorry that the situation sounds so hard  

I wonder if She could use some jitney service to get places. In Some cities there are door to door jitney for seniors and disabled persons as part of public transit systems—maybe there is something like that where she is. Or not. Or maybe there is taxi, though they tend to be very expensive. 

It sounds though like she may need the next level of care and maybe that has some transportation or cleaning help.  I think that probably is extremely variable  My uncle’s place has good transport, but it is very expensive, as in more expensive than a taxi.  

 

[skimomma]

14 hours ago, HeighHo said:

The mile-a-minute talking/long repeated stories are likely a noise wall.  She likely doesn't want to converse with you, nor hear anything you have to say.  Keep notes and see if you can figure out the trigger. 

 

 

She has done this with everyone for as far back as I can remember.  I did not recognize it as unusual until well after I moved out of the house.  It has only been pretty recently that it occurred to me that it could be a calming mechanism.  She has never had a lot of self-confidence....again, something I did not figure out until well into adulthood.  It is almost like if she "fills" the space with talking, there is no opportunity for someone to talk about something she doesn't understand.  I know she is now even more self-conscious due to the memory issues.  So talking on and on about the carpet cleaners or last week's weather avoids discussions coming up that she should remember, but doesn't.  I don't think she recognizes any of this.  Unfortunately, this habit is very annoying and I believe it is likely the biggest contributor to her lifetime lack of friends.  As uncomfortable as I sometimes feel around the couple that seems suspicious of us, I am very thankful she does have people in her life that value her friendship and spend time with her.

I think it has shaped me quite a bit in that I actually prefer to be around people who do most of the talking.  Sister too.  It's kind of funny, actually.  But as mom's memory issues have gotten worse, she repeats the stories more frequently....sometimes within the same conversation.  I know that it will never change so we try to be patient.  When visiting in person, she does calm down and is almost a different person.  This is partly why we have had so much trouble addressing her needs and how we can help.  Until she calms down, there is no real conversation.  And it seems when we are visiting, there is so much going on like playing with grandchildren, visiting relatives, fixing things around her house, etc.... that it is hard to capitalize on the calm to have these discussions.  I am thinking a longer solo trip with just me might be in order.

[skimomma]

14 hours ago, Pen said:

I am sorry that the situation sounds so hard  

I wonder if She could use some jitney service to get places. In Some cities there are door to door jitney for seniors and disabled persons as part of public transit systems—maybe there is something like that where she is. Or not. Or maybe there is taxi, though they tend to be very expensive. 

It sounds though like she may need the next level of care and maybe that has some transportation or cleaning help.  I think that probably is extremely variable  My uncle’s place has good transport, but it is very expensive, as in more expensive than a taxi.  

 

 

I'm thinking Uber would be the best option.  It will be very expensive but less than taxis.  I think.  The block is that mom does not use a cell phone.  She is not opposed to them but has lost so so SO many that she gave up.  And I don't think she could handle a smartphone.  Where I live (we don't have Uber) we can make an account with the taxi company and they bill monthly.  That is probably the most feasible option if it exists in mom's area.  That is the type of expense that I could swing if needed.

[skimomma]

If anyone is still reading....  I had an idea last night.  One barrier we have had with all conversations like this is that mom simply does not remember that we discussed something or if she does, what the details are.  Would it be a good idea to tape important conversations?  Theoretically, she could review them.  In reality, I think it would be a way to remind her of things we discussed when necessary.  For instance, it would be helpful to have record of the will discussions we had in April.  She does not remember that we looked for the safe deposit box and is now back to claiming she has a box at one of the banks we went to.  She simply does not believe we checked there and certainly does not believe that we found the correct bank and what the details were for accessing it if she chooses.   There is a very real possibly that she will, on her own, go to all of those banks again trying to find the box.  

It would also be a way for her friend to be able to monitor what we are discussing to clear up any suspicion that we have bad intentions.  

Of course, this would only be an idea I would pursue if she indeed does want us to help her.  Which I may not know for a while.....until I can get her calm and clear-minded enough to have that conversation.

[skimomma]

15 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

No, it is not a good idea to record. first, you need her permission, which she won't give. second, she isn't interested in the conversation you want to have. She will use the noise wall as she has always done and she'll claim she doesn't remember well past the time the cows come home.  third, you just have no leg to stand on.  until she is declared incompetent, she is entitled to make her decisions, no matter what her iq is unimpaired. keeping her hoarding under control is enough to show that she's competent. 

it's her life. you have to respect that.

 

Whoa.  Of course it would be with her permission!  Sheesh.  I think you are inferring more out of this situation than there is.  She has never said she does not want help.  You are interpreting how she acts as rejection of help.  That may very well be true but I think it is possible that that is not the case as she displays these behaviors whether we are talking about her elder care plans or discussing what restaurant to eat lunch at.  Being embarrassed to talk about something is not the same as not wanting help.   And in fairness, we have not asked point-blank.  That would be the first step.  As I have said multiple times, if she truly, during a calm and lucid conversation, states that she does not want help, I will certainly drop the whole thing.  If she does, I want to do whatever I can to have her involved in every aspect, including having a way to access past discussions to remember what was already discussed.

[Pen]

42 minutes ago, skimomma said:

If anyone is still reading....  I had an idea last night.  One barrier we have had with all conversations like this is that mom simply does not remember that we discussed something or if she does, what the details are.  Would it be a good idea to tape important conversations?  Theoretically, she could review them.  In reality, I think it would be a way to remind her of things we discussed when necessary.  For instance, it would be helpful to have record of the will discussions we had in April.  She does not remember that we looked for the safe deposit box and is now back to claiming she has a box at one of the banks we went to.  She simply does not believe we checked there and certainly does not believe that we found the correct bank and what the details were for accessing it if she chooses.   There is a very real possibly that she will, on her own, go to all of those banks again trying to find the box.  

It would also be a way for her friend to be able to monitor what we are discussing to clear up any suspicion that we have bad intentions.  

Of course, this would only be an idea I would pursue if she indeed does want us to help her.  Which I may not know for a while.....until I can get her calm and clear-minded enough to have that conversation.

 

 If she thought that could help her, then trying it could be a good idea. And starting a tape with her saying she wants the conversation taped to help remember it would then be important, I think. 

I am not sure what to begin a conversation with, but maybe with trying to find out if she is drinking enough water/hydration replacement fluids. And then maybe to ask about meds that could be causing problems etc, if there could be a uti (I think you mentioned frequent restroom stops being neeeded iirc) because if she can think more clearly and remember things better, it could make everything else easier  

I learned from something in my own life that it is important to discuss  concerns like memory issues increasing directly with the person involved, rather than only privately with others.   And I don’t know if you are doing that with your mother .

I think a direct compassionate conversation is needed  including that you understand that the topic is itself likely to be upsetting and anxiety producing and giving assurances that you are not judging her but are very concerned and just want to help.  And directly asking her if she wants you to help and if so how  

Is the loss of cell phones the reason that seeking bank with safety deposit box was done by driving around for four hours instead of phoning? Or is it not possible to learn if one has a safety deposit box by calling?  Can your mother get a copper wired type phone in her unit?  Once she is at church or a medical appointment she could probably borrow a phone to get a ride back home  or could set up return rides ahead of time perhaps  I dunno how Uber works  

I do think you should try to get some real information about your mother’s financial situation  She may not be in financial difficulties so much as just anxious and stressed  If she is thinking of there being money left over to give to church it sounds like she probably doesn’t need you to pay for Uber etc   Or, to put it differently, if you are paying for Uber etc, then, effectively, money she might leave to a church would really be partly your indirect gift to the church, not hers  You may feel upset if you have been scraping together money for her transportation etc and then learn she has left a quarter or half a million to her church. I think asking about her Will is improper, but not being willing to help financially without knowing that she truly needs financial help seems reasonable to me  So I think financial help contingent on getting permission to learn what is going on from the financial advisor  might make sense

 

Btw: Would inability to handle a smartphone be cognitive or physical? This is a question for personal reasons as I am trying to find out if my mother can handle a cell phone. We are too far apart for her to try mine. 

[Pen]

Ps. I am reading all of any thread I see on this sort of topic because it is a major thing to get figured out for my own situation. 

[skimomma]

31 minutes ago, Pen said:

Ps. I am reading all of any thread I see on this sort of topic because it is a major thing to get figured out for my own situation. 

 

I really appreciate your input on this.  I didn't want to quote your larger post right before for brevity's sake, but new technology is difficult for mom.  For instance, we were never able to help her figure out how to use the voicemail and text functions on her regular cell phones.  We would set them up and she was able to use them while we were there, but she seemed to lose the skill soon after.  I once wrote all of the instructions down with photos of the screens from her phone, but it was quickly misplaced once we left.  They would frequently get misplaced or the charger would get misplaced.  That sort of thing.  She eventually decided, wisely, I think, that the cost of replacement was not worth it anymore.  Even keeping her in a very basic working computer has been difficult.  The move to her complex has been helpful as they have computers, with support available, in the main meeting area.

Good point about UTIs.  I did not even think about that.

Also good point about financial stress.  My feeling is that she is probably OK for now in a long term sense but I'm guessing her month allotment may not have kept up with her expenses.  The stress seems to be about small things....airfare, car repairs, etc....  Even if she has enough to really be covering those things, it is worth it to me to help her with them in the short term just to make the in-the-moment stress go away.  But longer term, it would be good to know if there is a real shortfall taht or just an access issue.

[skimomma]

23 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

A wall of noise is not produced for covering embarrassment.  It's produced because she finds it preferable to sticking her thumbs in her ears and wiggling her fingers with her eyes closed.  She is telling you in many ways to back off.  As is her legal right.  Do not be surprised if her friends start investigating elder abuse policy -- you have gone way overboard.  Good luck.

 

I am not sure there is any point in trying to defend myself since you seem to think I have motives other than concern for my mom's well-being.  But.  To reiterate, she has done the "wall of noise" as you call it for at least 40 years.  She does not do it just around potentially uncomfortable topics.  She does it all of the time to everyone.  This has driven off many people in her life.  There may be something to the "wall of noise" theory, but I also believe it is largely a habit that likely stemmed from being nervous about talking to people in general.  If you stick around long enough, she calms down and starts conversing in a more normal manner.

I fail to see where I have gone overboard.  I may have approached things in very much the wrong manner.  But, largely, if I can be accused of anything, it has been being chicken about addressing what I knew to be a problem a long long LONG time ago.  I am doing the best I can.  As I have said probably 10 times now in this thread, I will be asking her, point blank, as soon as possible if she wants my help.  If she does not, I will leave her be about anything related to helping her as she ages.  The only other action I will take, if that is the case, is make sure her complex has my contact information and continue to check in on her as best I can via phone and when I (or dh) can visit.  

I am not super close to my mom but I certainly love and care about her.  

[Scarlett]

27 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

I'm going to recommend you pick up a copy of The 36 Hour Day.

I think anyone who experienced it should have a significant memory of the quest for the box as you described it upthread. 

I agree.  It has been what 4 months since that wild goose chase?  The fact that she has no memory of it is VERY concerning.  I hate to be the one to say it but you may very well have to get something done legally since it is clear she is not fully competent.  I think this is always hard for any of us, but more so when you aren't super close to begin with and people IRL and on chat boards might be questioning your motives.  

 

((((hugs))))

[skimomma]

1 hour ago, Seasider too said:

 

I'm going to recommend you pick up a copy of The 36 Hour Day.

I think anyone who experienced it should have a significant memory of the quest for the box as you described it upthread. 

 

Thanks!  I just requested this via ILL.  I have also read "Being Mortal" and have requested it again.  My mom is not a reader, unfortunately, but I did give her a copy when it first came out after I heard an interview.  She was receptive to the topic but I doubt she read it.

[skimomma]

39 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I agree.  It has been what 4 months since that wild goose chase?  The fact that she has no memory of it is VERY concerning.  I hate to be the one to say it but you may very well have to get something done legally since it is clear she is not fully competent.  I think this is always hard for any of us, but more so when you aren't super close to begin with and people IRL and on chat boards might be questioning your motives.  

 

((((hugs))))

 

Yes.  This is alarming to me.  This is for sure the most alarmed I have been which is what prompted me to start this thread.  She not only does not remember the goose chase, she does not even remember the visit at all.  She does not remember that dd, my sister, BIL, and their children were also there.  For a full week.  We did all sorts of stuff that would have been out of her norm like going to museums, a concert, and traveling a bit out of town to visit with relatives.  This came up in a recent call when she chastised me for not visiting recently.  Dh stopped in during a trip two weeks before that and she does remember that.  She does seem to be able to recollect things from the distant past, which I have read is not uncommon.

[skimomma]

1 minute ago, Seasider too said:

 

Even if she doesn't read Being Mortal, it will help you converse with her. 

36HD is for you, not for her. It can help you discern whether or not her behaviors are neurotypical, and suggestions for how to proceed if they're not.  

 

A re-read of Being Mortal is on my list for sure.

I assumed 36HD was not for her:)

[Tess in the Burbs]

you need a durable POA.  Or someone does.  I was told recently a living will doesn't matter...legally the medical POA can do whatever and it supersedes the living will.  

Depending on the size of the city call the law offices about a will.  POA would have been filed with the county she is in, but I don't know they can tell you yay or nay about one for her.  

If she is capable tel her she has to redo it all NOW.  It doesn't have to be you or your sister but you want to know she has a plan and you will stop asking ?

[Tree Frog]

Just to toss this out because it's been niggling in the back of my mind. Could she be the victim of elder abuse by her long time friends or a child of the friends? MIght that possibly also explain not wanting to talk about finances and you getting looks from long term friends when you ask? The friends are also likely losing some of their abilities and if one of their children stepped in to help them, might said child also be "helping" your mom at friends' suggestion. From your description, your mom would likely have followed their suggestions year(s) ago.

[Scarlett]

25 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

Just to toss this out because it's been niggling in the back of my mind. Could she be the victim of elder abuse by her long time friends or a child of the friends? MIght that possibly also explain not wanting to talk about finances and you getting looks from long term friends when you ask? The friends are also likely losing some of their abilities and if one of their children stepped in to help them, might said child also be "helping" your mom at friends' suggestion. From your description, your mom would likely have followed their suggestions year(s) ago.

My former MIL has a set of friends her age --all of them are in their late 80s---they have no children and they are very protective of MIL as if she is being abused or scammed by her children.  She isn't....but I feel over the years she has probably given that impression to her friends. I don't know if that is the case with the OP's mom.....but sometimes things get told in a way that just isn't reality.  And in my MIL's case I know her friends aren't scamming her because they also have a lot of money.

My XH has had to take over a lot of the care of his mom even though she has always been so private --to the  point of secrecy about her money and health.  At this point though...she is 88 and he has to hire the sitters and talk to the doctors and all of that.  I don't know how he convinced her....he just told me he told her she does not have a choice.

[skimomma]

13 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

Just to toss this out because it's been niggling in the back of my mind. Could she be the victim of elder abuse by her long time friends or a child of the friends? MIght that possibly also explain not wanting to talk about finances and you getting looks from long term friends when you ask? The friends are also likely losing some of their abilities and if one of their children stepped in to help them, might said child also be "helping" your mom at friends' suggestion. From your description, your mom would likely have followed their suggestions year(s) ago.

 

It has crossed my mind but I am doubtful that there is an issue there.  The couple does not have any children or any other living relatives.  And they are very wealthy.  The wife inherited a great deal of money from her parents upon their death well before I was born.  I know that my mom has borrowed money from them in the past.  And I suspect they help her financially now, at the very least with little things like picking up dinner tabs and buying concert tickets.  But, really, I don't know.  It is not impossible.

I have tried not to take their suspicion of sister and me personally.  They are just very suspicious people....actually just the wife....husband is almost 100% deaf and almost never talks anymore.  They own a total of five houses, four of which are in very poor repair and filled to the ceilings with hoarded "treasures."  They loved in each of these houses at one point, but when they get too full to live in, they shutter the current house up and buy a new one.  Wife constantly frets that the neighbors are stealing from her or spying in the windows trying to count up how much the items are worth.  When is reality, the neighbors probably have no idea there is anything of value in the houses.  And in fact, there probably isn't anything of value as anything that may have been of value has likely succumbed to mold, animal damage, and whatever else happens to items inside houses that are no longer heated.  Wife has been through many doctors because she is convinced they diagnose her with various illnesses because they want to do unnecessary surgeries to get her money.  I only give these examples to explain that their suspicion of us is not abnormal or personal.  

Mom has actually told me how crazy she thinks friend is with her suspicions.  So at least that does not appear to be contagious.  

 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, skimomma said:

I will be asking her, point blank, as soon as possible if she wants my help.  If she does not, I will leave her be about anything related to helping her as she ages.

 

I totally agree with plan to ask her ASAP point blank if she wants your help. You can probably do this more than once. Not so many times as to be pestering, but more than once since her capacities seem to go up and down. Also for some people saying “no” the first time something is offered is standard behavior either for personal emotional reasons or for cultural reasons of what is considered polite. 

 

I also think you you can bring up things she has told you already, such as about her living community arrangements that you did not fully follow when she first told you. 

You perhaps could also ask if she has advice or suggestions , as if for someone else, about matters related to things you are concerned about such as uti or hydration if she can talk easier about things when she is in the advising nurse sort of role.  Like, maybe, hey mom, how much fluid is good to drink during hot summer weather?  Wow, that’s a lot, how can someone make sure they get that much each day? 

[TechWife]

55 minutes ago, Tess in the Burbs said:

  POA would have been filed with the county she is in, but I don't know they can tell you yay or nay about one for her.  
 

Not where my parent's lived. The POA only ends up filed with the county if someone challenges it and it ends up in the court system. The POA is literally and physically carried around by the person who has it. My parents' each signed three copies - the attorney kept one, they kept one and the remaining copy of the Medical POA was given to my sister and the remaining copy of the financial POA was given to me. The county never saw them. I had to show it at various times to different entities I was dealing with and they copied it for their records, but it was never filed with the county.

[Pen]

POA: I think calling the deeds and records offices and asking the recording clerk to check for a recorded power of attorney in the counties where your mother lives now, lived in her previous home, and lived while your father was alive and they might have done future preparation and planning together, might be very worthwhile. Particularly if set up back when real estate was still owned it could have been recorded to allow real estate transactions even if the jurisdiction didn’t require POA recording. 

Note: use the telephone, at least to start, and even if they say to come in, tell them that you are _____miles away and need some other options than to come in     People have to get records copies long distance frequently. It is possible  to do so.  

Thoughts

Executive Function: as I have struggled with finding ways to deal with problems my son has had over the years, for example dyslexia, dysgraphia, something that resembles ADHD, I have come to realize that I myself and others in the family also have some of these issues, but masked by higher intelligence compensating, or the era, or a slightly lower degree of the problem, or maybe just always looked at as an odd quirk, like someone whose writing is utterly illegible just being joked about rather than a reason and solution sought .

 In reading your thread I wonder if similar could be true for your family. There have been several times that something has made me think this. Ffor example some of your own confusion about what is going on, where it seems like it may in part stem from your own inability to hear, listen, and communicate well as being additive with your mother’s difficulties.

I don’t know if there is anything to this, but am bringing it to your attention in case there is. For example, where you indicated that your mother had tried to tell you about her arrangement with the retirement community, but you didn’t catch on, or didn’t listen well at the time. 

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

POA: I think calling the deeds and records offices and asking the recording clerk to check for a recorded power of attorney in the counties where your mother lives now, lived in her previous home, and lived while your father was alive and they might have done future preparation and planning together, might be very worthwhile. Particularly if set up back when real estate was still owned it could have been recorded to allow real estate transactions even if the jurisdiction didn’t require POA recording.

Courts don't record information that is not needed. It is highly unlikely that a POA would be recorded anywhere unless it has been contested. My voice of experience tells me this is a waste of time. If it was used in a real estate transaction, it would be with the real estate records. I doubt a clerk is going to search through those. That is what paralegals are for - attorneys send them to search records. It would be much easier to have her mother sign a new POA.

[TechWife]

On 8/6/2018 at 3:43 PM, itsheresomewhere said:

Any chance this senior housing complex has an attorney they have a deal with? I know a few here have some attorneys they work with and the attorneys  give residents a discount for using them.  This might be the cheapest way for a new will.  I suggest you run your mom’s name through the state’s unclaimed money 

That would set off alarm bells for me - residents need to keep the management of their finances completely separate from the company that manages their property/facility, including using any legal teams recommended by them. There are too many ways this can go wrong. When a senior living community invites a non profit in to have a free tax clinic or a will clinic that is usually fine. The non-profit is in charge of recruiting providers and no money changes hands. However, for an entity to recommend a private attorney is a situation ripe for conflict of interest and financial abuse.

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Executive Function: as I have struggled with finding ways to deal with problems my son has had over the years, for example dyslexia, dysgraphia, something that resembles ADHD, I have come to realize that I myself and others in the family also have some of these issues, but masked by higher intelligence compensating, or the era, or a slightly lower degree of the problem, or maybe just always looked at as an odd quirk, like someone whose writing is utterly illegible just being joked about rather than a reason and solution sought .

 In reading your thread I wonder if similar could be true for your family. There have been several times that something has made me think this. Ffor example some of your own confusion about what is going on, where it seems like it may in part stem from your own inability to hear, listen, and communicate well as being additive with your mother’s difficulties.

I don’t know if there is anything to this, but am bringing it to your attention in case there is. For example, where you indicated that your mother had tried to tell you about her arrangement with the retirement community, but you didn’t catch on, or didn’t listen well at the time. 

I haven't gotten the impression at all that the OP is facing anything or reacting in any way other than what is normal for her situation. Generally, we don't pay a lot of attention to information until we need to know the information, so the fact that her mother told her something years ago and she doesn't remember the details isn't at all concerning.

Edited August 9, 2018 by TechWife

[itsheresomewhere]

25 minutes ago, TechWife said:

That would set off alarm bells for me - residents need to keep the management of their finances completely separate from the company that manages their property/facility, including using any legal teams recommended by them. There are too many ways this can go wrong. When a senior living community invites a non profit in to have a free tax clinic or a will clinic that is usually fine. The non-profit is in charge of recruiting providers and no money changes hands. However, for an entity to recommend a private attorney is a situation ripe for conflict of interest and financial abuse.

Actually, these services are not part of the complexes. Nor are the complexes involved. They know that some residents will not do this if they have to pay a lot.  So they have arranged discounts with some attorneys if they let them know they live there. No different than using a aaa discount or health discount somewhere. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

Courts don't record information that is not needed. It is highly unlikely that a POA would be recorded anywhere unless it has been contested. My voice of experience tells me this is a waste of time. If it was used in a real estate transaction, it would be with the real estate records. I doubt a clerk is going to search through those. That is what paralegals are for - attorneys send them to search records. It would be much easier to have her mother sign a new POA.

 

POA requirements vary by state. It can be looked up online for the states relevant to OPs mother if she is capable of doing an online search.  Or there are sites that give the basics for all 50 states in lay language . 

Both I and my mother live in places that require a durable POA to be recorded. Obviously you don’t. But what is required where I live or where you live (or have experience) isn’t what determines the law where OPs mother lives, or lived  

If her mother *wants*  to sign a new POA I agree that that would be far far easier.

However she may not be coerced into doing so against her will, and she has to have current requisite mental capacity to do so—which she may have. Or maybe not. 

[skimomma]

Update.

Apparently, I am psychic.

I type this sitting in the motel room across the street from the hospital my mom has been admitted to.  She had a medical "incident" last night while on vacation and was transported via ambulance to the nearest hospital.  I say "incident" because it is unclear what happened exactly except that she was out of it (similar to the dehydration thing) for a day or two then collapsed while attempting to go to the bathroom.  However, while she was somewhat dehydrated, it was not enough to cause this.  Some of my aunts and cousins are also on this trip with her and they speculate that she might have mixed up and/or missed some of her meds.  She also has a pretty serious bacterial infection from a wound on her foot.  She is on high powered antibiotics and cannot walk on the foot in question.  She is very confused amid some more lucid moments.  From a purely medical standpoint, she may be cleared for discharge tomorrow.  The location is far from her home.  I drove through the night to get here.  

I spent a great deal of the afternoon with a wonderful social worker who is helping us get a temporary at-home plan for when mom returns.  She must have had a slow day because she let me hash out many of the topics discussed in this thread and has really helped me to get some direction.  After that, I did have a talk with mom where she agreed to allow me to call into her next meetings with her lawyer (she remembered a name today and I wrote it down....fingers crossed it is correct), her financial advisor, and the ED of her complex.  I was hoping to do these things in person, but I don't think it can wait.  I know I will have to follow up on this to make it happen and she may forget.  We had a little heart to heart about help and what she wants.  She wants help.  Or, rather, she knows she needs help.  Her stated motive for shutting us out is that she did not want to be a burden and did not want to be forced to live with either of us (she does not like where either of us lives).  She thought she had set everything up to be automatic so we would not have to do anything.  Which it may very well be.  But we need to make sure there is access for the people who need it, be it us or someone else.  Things may be more together than we knew.  Hopefully we will know soon.  I am sure there is more to mom's preference to not discuss with us, but at this point, she knows she needs help and we are here and willing to help.  So hopefully it will work out.

This has been very stressful and I am beyond exhausted.  We are not sure what happens next.  We need to figure out the next few days/weeks before anything long term can be discussed.  She may return home with the aunts tomorrow.  If she is not cleared, I will have to drive her in a few days.  Social worker has helped us set up home visits until bandages no longer need changing and her mobility improves.  Home care will also be checking on proper med doses and her general ability to live on her own.  There are a gradient of care options available in the housing system she has bought into so it seems as though she will not be faced with going from fully independent living to full-on nursing home.  Sister and I will aim to understand it all better.  I have a very important final job interview tomorrow so I will be checking in on her very early then driving to catch it....then likely driving back again if she was not discharged.  I am so tired and overwhelmed that I worry about my interview performance.  It cannot be delayed.  I tried.  And I REALLY need this job.

I have also been on the phone with the friends (wife specifically).  They are going to help her when she arrives, either with aunts or me, and get her to her initial doctor appointments since she cannot drive with her foot situation.   In a very unexpected turn of events, friend fully agreed with my concerns about being in the dark about mom's medical and financial situation.  She said she would help me work with mom to get these things settled.  She has been worried too. 

Lots of work and worry ahead but I feel like we may have had a breakthrough.  As much as the in-the-moment situation sucks, it could have been so much worse.  Had she been at home, alone, this could be a much different post.  

 

[TechWife]

3 minutes ago, skimomma said:

Update.

Apparently, I am psychic.

...

Lots of work and worry ahead but I feel like we may have had a breakthrough.  As much as the in-the-moment situation sucks, it could have been so much worse.  Had she been at home, alone, this could be a much different post.  

 

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear about your mom, but glad for the breakthrough on her being wiling for you to help her make sure things are set up and see to it that she is well cared for as she recovers and longer term. Good social workers are worth their weight in gold!

 

[Pen]

I hope your interview goes well!!!

It sounds like your mother’s situation is on the way to getting straightened out.