old

[Melissa in CA]

Wow! $170 for DE and that's not including bundle items? Yikes. I think if they lowered the price they would get more customers/make more money.

 

Well, I'm glad I pre-ordered Y2 and Y3! Now if we can just reach that 450 minimum... I am a bit discouraged that Y2 orders are only at about 110. :001_huh: I really don't want digital.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[Karenciavo]

What does this mean for Year 4, which it has been indicated will only be available in digital and also btw not resellable?? I think there are some TOG faithful who have started the whole Redesign journey and want to complete the cycle.

 

This is me, I have Redesigned years 1, 2, and 1/2 of 3 in print (hopefully soon to be all of year 3) and I will definitely buy Year 4 DE if it is available. I hope people don't get scared off too much. The Somervilles are sharing their thoughts on various possibilities, not all things have been settled yet. I too fear that the high price, inability to resell, and having no printed copy will keep many people away. I believe there is the possibility that Lampstand may do print runs of all year plans during the busy time of year (late spring/summer) and there's also the possibility that they may sell portions of each year plan. Hopefully those incentives, if they come to pass, will keep customers and gain new ones.

[KayT]

In reading through this the last few days I get the feeling that Classic users were "not" supported with book updates as books fell out of print?

[Zee]

Thanks Momee, you have encouraged me and answered my concern about the Classic. I guess we will go with the DE for Year 4. I'll print whatever I need printed and just deal with it. If my plan goes awry, then I'll trust God to provide a new one for me. With so many using TOG, I'm sure we'll put our heads together and figure out an alternate, right? Prayerfully, this won't happen and TOG will get through this rough spot. We'll just have to keep praying. I agree TOG is the best that I have seen for OUR family. I've used Sonlight and I prefer TOG's history based with literature over Sonlight's Literature based with History style. I didn't want to have to buy so much this early, but I guess I'll do it this year and then it will be done, other than books.

[sandalwood]

 

But, on the whole, IMHO Lampstand Press has just alienated a huge portion of their customer base and might not be able to get it back. I have personally shown or "converted" ;) two of my friends to TOG but with that price tag, most people I know won't even look at TOG. Not that they wouldn't love it -- they simply couldn't afford it, and that's it. Something that gets lost when you talk about buying the Year Plan, Writing Aids, Map Aids, Evaluations, Lap Book, on and on ... you have just spent several hundred dollars, and not yet bought one book for student use.

 

 

 

I totally agree with this. I am one who is always looking for something "better" (a terrible flaw of mine!) in curriculum and I have been looking into TOG but this change has totally alienated me. I had a friend use the classic several years ago and loved it. I'd love to walk up on the redesigned used at a curriculum sale sometime but that still leaves year 4 in digital and not sure where it stands now anyhow.

[Guest]

I think it would be helpful for TOG to respectfully hear everyone's opinion of what is going on...whether through email or on their boards. I think so far they are mainly hearing support from loyal users...but they also need to hear the opinions of families that have been considering using TOG. I think a lot of people on these boards have pointed out some good points and concerns TOG should be hearing and considering. They have a business to run...and I think hearing potential customers opinions would be beneficial in decisions they are making right now.

[fourgrogs]

My opinion is that pulling together is a much better solution than not. Those of us who have invested heavily in TOG want to see the re-designed product completed through Year 4. I will support Lampstand Press as much as I can, because when we come upon a break from school my 7 year old son pleads,"Let's not take a break from History, Mom." I do not think investing in TOG is any more expensive than trying many different curriculums or trying to create your own curriculum for each of the 6-8 subjects that TOG provides (History, Literature, Geography, Vocabulary, Worldview/Church History, Philosophy, Fine Arts & Writing.) We are all experiencing hard times right now. I am saddened that TOG has been effected so dramatically, but am grateful they are not giving up. They still have vision, so do I.

 

-Charity

homeschooling ds age 5 and ds age 7

[Heather in VA]

As an outsider looking in, I'm confused by the expectation that people seem to have that TOG should have, without cost, kept the Classic version up-to-date instead of upgrading the product. I don't know of any other company that does that? From the number of people I know using Classic, it must still be usable, they have just come up with a newer product. Isn't that what most companies do each year when they update their product? They aren't sending 'update pages' or new copies to their old customers. Many don't do anything. At least Sonlight and TOG both offer upgrade reductions for previous customers. SWB didn't (nor should she have) send out update pages for the revised editions of SOTW or WTM.

 

My other comment was related to the idea that TOG is trying to save money on printing costs but then telling the customer it's not excessively priced to print. This isn't really what they are trying to do. It's a cash-flow issue. The way their business is right now, they have to front a large amount of cash to pre-print batches of curriculum ahead of time to have curriculum available for the busy season and to take care of those who purchase during the slow times. But they don't see return on that money for a while, and sometimes not at all if they misjudge the demand during the off season. Meanwhile, they still have to pay employees, pay bills, pay for wherever they keep their inventory, keep up the website etc. All the costs of business. If the ability to get that influx of cash dries up, which has for so many companies during the down economy, they have two choices, close up or find a way to minimize the outlay of cash needed. Digital has the obvious advantages of doing just that. Much cheaper to produce both because of the higher cost of printing and the fact that they can probably do it in-house rather than having to pay someone print it for them. Much less storage cost because of it's size. Cheaper to ship etc.

So it's not a matter of trying to make that money they normally pay for printing, it's a cash-flow problem. I doubt this is the last company we'll see go digital.

 

Heather

[TraceyS/FL]

I probably would have ordered Year 3 in print if i could have also gotten a digital copy later. BUT, this sale could not come at a worse time for me.

 

Christmas

Property Taxes (not "late" until March though, just go up in price)

Homeowners Insurance - all due by January 15th.

 

Nope, not a lot of extra cash floating around to buy "extras" i don't need now.

 

I have a 20% discount with BJU that i need/want to take advantage of by December 31 too - and that is going to hurt badly if i can't :(

 

ANYWAY, i'm still trying to figure out what to do....

[home4school]

Heather, you make a good point. I tend to look at things to simply. I really don't think about the overall aspect of running a large business. I don't think about all the up front cash they need to print, etc. I just think, Okay, these people paid for their year plan, now where is it?

 

One point you made:

 

I'm confused by the expectation that people seem to have that TOG should have, without cost, kept the Classic version up-to-date instead of upgrading the product.

 

What I gathered from Classics users was a desire to have been offered add-on upgrade packages for x amount of dollars, instead of having to rebuy the whole year plans.

 

You said that "Digital has the obvious advantages of doing just that. Much cheaper to produce both because of the higher cost of printing and the fact that they can probably do it in-house rather than having to pay someone print it for them. Much less storage cost because of it's size. Cheaper to ship etc."

 

That's my point. It is so much cheaper to produce and deliver, I had hoped to see a more significant decrease in price. But, they do have an awesome program, I just need to come to grips with the fact that even with DE, its still probably out of my price range!:(

 

I feel badly for TOG, all of the current users, and ones who had hoped to use it in the future. It's just a bad time economically for everyone. Thanks you though for making me think about the big picture they face running what has grown to be such a large company.

 

Blessings,

Kim

[Karenciavo]

What I gathered from Classics users was a desire to have been offered add-on upgrade packages for x amount of dollars, instead of having to rebuy the whole year plans.

 

This was offered at one point when Redesign Year 1 was first offered, but they saw this option wasn't going to work out and dropped it.

[Melissa in CA]

What I gathered from Classics users was a desire to have been offered add-on upgrade packages for x amount of dollars, instead of having to rebuy the whole year plans.

 

 

I thought that TOGs 50% off offer for Classic users buying the Redesign was extremely generous. Especially in light of TOG allowing them to keep said Classic version. I know some who took advantage of the 50% off deal, and then sold their Classic version therby getting the new Redesign at a fraction of the cost...if any cost at all!

 

Then there is TOGs Share and Save program! I know it is on hold now, and may never return, but I received 15% TOG credit for anyone who purchased TOG products using my Share & Save code. If I felt comfortable using my credit right now, I could get a Y2 or Y3, along with a few books, for free! And this is credit, honestly, from people I don't know.

 

All that to say, TOG has been very generous! More so than any other homeschool company I know...yes, even SL. I could/would never think that by charging $170 for the DE version that they are being greedy (not that I recall anyone actually saying that). Putting out a high quality product with excellent customer service and high-tech webpages and forums, etc., costs money. Lots and lots of money. I am assuming that since this is a family business, that it may also be their main source of income as well. No one would do what the Somervilles do for free. They have to eat. Their employees have to eat. I feel badly for them right now and I think we, as fellow homeschoolers, should come alongside them and help in any way we can. If you can help by purchasing some books, or a year plan, then great...but remember we can ALL do one thing for them...pray. It's free. ;)

[Lisawa]

Hi... for some reason I stopped getting emails to new posts...

 

I read last week that DE would be around $150. I got it in an email.... it could have changed since then... but this what was in my in box.... it will not include map aids ( those were created by another company) and as far as I know it wont include evals. The Loom is on line now so it will include that, just like the printed copy.

 

If you buy a printed copy you get the loom and buy your books... Map aids are a must if you want geography... but only if you will use it.... the other products are optinal... like evals, pop quiz ect.... they dont make the program at all... the year plan is tops in my book... and enough.

 

I have years 1, 2 and 3 ( unit 1 and 2 and waiting for U3 and 4) and plan to print year 4 out... Im not sure how much.... but If I didnt have the year plans... I would be buying them in print now. I like it in print. Although my attitude may change once I "see" DE... I just dont know yet.

 

Im hoping they can come up with some agreement about re selling.... I understand the concept though... We can re sell the printed versions... but with DE... it makes it so much easier to mass reproduce and sell for profit than it would to resell printed.... That is what my mind is thinking... I have no idea for their reasons behind the desicion....

 

as far as classic, then redesign.... Classic is still a good product/curriculum... anyone with classic does not have to sell it... they can keep it and continue to use it..... but like "all" curriculum's on the market.... curriculum is improved upon, books go out of print. I cant think of one company that has not updated curriculum at some point. Abeka and Bob Jones does it every few years.... Sonlight has changed so much over the last 10 years.... their guides are always "updated"... so I view this as no different. If someone bought classic TOG... they truly dont "have" to buy another or updated version.... just like someone with multiple kids does not have to sell and re buy SL... its still good... classic is still good...

 

Im so sorry to those that feel put out by all the changes... change is uncomfortable.... especially when its not sure what is going to be the end result....

 

I'm trying to follow the whole thing, but getting confused since I haven't used TOG yet, but plan to for 5th grade and up (dd is in 3rd grade).

 

1. What would be the main advantages of the digital over the print copy? (I can't find that original letter from TOG.)

 

2. If I buy the digital copy for the projected $170, would that include all I'd need-Map Aids, Evaluations, Loom, etc.?

 

3. If I get the Redesigned print copy, what do I need to have with it to make it a complete product? The Loom on CD, MapAids and Evaluations, I'm guessing?

 

I can see the benefits of the digital: printing out extra copies of Student Activity Pages, etc. I would still want it all printed out though since I'm so visual. So I guess I'm trying to figure out why I'd want the digital over the currently available print. I can see where updates would be easier.

 

I guess at this point I'm worried that although I know it's "worth it" for the work they've put into it, the reality of it is that they may be pricing the DE too high and not allowing resale, and therefore running themselves out of business. I pray not.

 

So I'm thinking of erring on the side of caution and stocking up on the print copies in case the worst happens and they go out of business. But then I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by not having access to updates, etc.

 

I understand their financial problems. But I guess I'm a little put out that first there was the Classic, then the Redesigned, and now the DE making the other two obsolete!

[WTMindy]

The only thing that I have had a problem with so far is the resale thing. I can justify paying $200 on something if I know that I can turn around at some point and sell it for about 75% of what I paid for it, but that is a big chunk to not get back at all. I will buy whatever version of year 4 is available (I'd prefer print, but I see the advantages of digital) because I have been VERY happy with the product and I want to continue to use it.

[Karenciavo]

I read last week that DE would be around $150. I got it in an email.... it could have changed since then... but this what was in my in box...

 

$150 is an introductory price through January 15, after that it goes to $170 or $45 per unit.

[Guest]

deleted

Edited November 17, 2008 by Guest

[Guest]

What I don't understand....is that they said they are struggling financially to pre-print all the TOG IG ahead of time for the upcoming year. But isn't all this research, development, and implmentation for TOG DE expensive?

 

 

 

In re: to this part of your question. The initial TOG DE is only a PDF edition. If you go their site, www.tapestryofgrace.com/digital, you will see the sample. (I also read on one of Marcia's post on their forum that it's only a PDF version at first, I didn't make that up :) ) So basically, it is already done.

[Karenciavo]

I would think that they could just print the TOG IG's as orders are placed and save alot of money. I know customers would have to wait a little longer for shipment. But I would rather wait a little longer on shipping than be forced to use a digital product that cannot be resalable. I am just not understanding how this is their only option.

 

Why can't they offer TOG DE to customers who want it....but still offer the printed IG as people order them? The printed version is already made and ready to print...why can't customers just order it and have it printed as they ordered it?

 

This may be an option, as Marcia explains in this post. (scroll down a bit)

[siloam]

Thanks Heather.

 

Jan

 

Jan,

 

The answer for now, is...I don't know. :001_huh: My summation of what they said is they are just trying to get the whole product to digital first, then they will revisit this topic and see if they can separate it out in a cost effective manner.

 

They also said hands down the digital product will not allow resales.

 

Heather

 

[home4school]

Yeah, I just thought of something to put all our minds at ease. Everyone will probably come out ahead when you think of all the money you'll save on PAGE PROTECTORS!!!!!

 

Don't you think?

 

Kim:)

[Karenciavo]

Yeah, I just thought of something to put all our minds at ease. Everyone will probably come out ahead when you think of all the money you'll save on PAGE PROTECTORS!!!!!

 

:lol: Yup. Although I do love the feel of page protectors. :001_rolleyes:

[YJ in AL]

Of course, you could always print out the pages you need and put them in page protectors. 'Fess up....I know that some of you would do that... :)

 

Yvonne

[jg_puppy]

Jan,

 

The answer for now, is...I don't know. :001_huh: My summation of what they said is they are just trying to get the whole product to digital first, then they will revisit this topic and see if they can separate it out in a cost effective manner.

 

Heather

 

 

Thank you for asking them. I thought that would likely be the answer.

 

Jan

[Melora in NC]

The November newsletter refers to "e-books." Does this mean that the DE version will be a download? For some reason I was thinking that it would be on cds, which, though not nearly as nice as a paper copy, still seem more like "having" something than just a file on my aging computer. I Wish I could order Yrs 2 & 3 now and get hard copies, but that just isn't possible. Could someone tell me if DE will be on cds?

 

Many thanks in advance! It is so foolish for me to be worrying about this, as there is nothing I can do about it, but we are enjoying Yr 1 and I hate to mess with a good thing! (Though I completely understand that Lampstand is doing their best under the circumstances, and I am very grateful they aren't just closing up shop.)

[*anj*]

I too fear that the high price, inability to resell, and having no printed copy will keep many people away. I believe there is the possibility that Lampstand may do print runs of all year plans during the busy time of year (late spring/summer) and there's also the possibility that they may sell portions of each year plan. Hopefully those incentives, if they come to pass, will keep customers and gain new ones.

 

Yes, this is what I'm hoping too. It sounds like the major problem is insufficient funding to have things printed during the slow season. I think it would be great if they had enough money to do a printing sometime in mid-summer each year and then people would just understand that if you miss that window, the only thing available is the DE.

 

I'm personally still trying to decide whether I want to pre-order Years 2 and 3 in printed form and then just wait for the Year 4 DE. I'd really love it if I could get the printed copies, but have digital access to the Reading Assignment pages so that I could print out copies directly from the computer.

 

Oh, and Karen--I just saw your location: and you're right. You are too far away from me! :(

[*anj*]

As an outsider looking in, I'm confused by the expectation that people seem to have that TOG should have, without cost, kept the Classic version up-to-date instead of upgrading the product. I don't know of any other company that does that? From the number of people I know using Classic, it must still be usable, they have just come up with a newer product. Isn't that what most companies do each year when they update their product? They aren't sending 'update pages' or new copies to their old customers.

 

You made several excellent points.

I'd like to add that the upgraded pages are actually available free of charge. They can be printed from the website. The formatting may be slightly different, and they won't match your preprinted pages perfectly, but the information is available. If a customer wants the pre-printed pages, there is a cost. And I agree with you that that's to be expected.

[*anj*]

While I understand the desire to resell, I have to say that if I can use one curriculum to teach my four children several subjects, I feel like I've gotten a pretty good deal. If I can use that same curriculum four years later for the same children, I feel like I've gotten a great deal. If you break down the entire amount (and I think I paid $295 for my complete bonus package last year), it really isn't as expensive as it seems. I know that we get sticker shock when we see the big number, but I encourage you to break it down. In my case, if I use it to teach 5 subjects, now I've paid $60/subject. And then when I teach each child a subject, I've paid $15/child/subject. And if I use it twice during their education I've paid $7.50/child/subject/cycle.

 

Okay, fine. If you resell it then it'll be like teaching your kids all those subjects for even less, but how much less will it really cost you? And is that really your bottom line? I don't mean to sound harsh, but I just want to encourage people to think outside the box on this, and maybe think of the DE as a sort of consumable.

 

I understand that this reasoning doesn't apply across the board: some people only have one or two children, some people truly cannot afford to invest this amount of money, etc. But then I guess it's not for you. Truly, and without guile, I am glad that there are so many choices available. Some people vacation in Europe, others go camping. Some people go out for pizza, others to 4-star restaurants. Some buy their clothing at Target, others at Nordstrom's. This is just the way things are. And you just do the best you can with the money that you have, and trust the Lord to make up the difference.

[Guest]

I am new to these boards and so this is my first post. First of all I would like to say hello to everyone.

 

About TOG: I made up my mind to go with TOG a few months ago and before the news about the DE version came out. When I heard the news my reaction was as follows:

 

a) I love this curriculum and so these changes will not change my mind! I have researched it quite extensively and as someone else so nicely put it, for my family and my homeschool goals, it works better to have a history-focused curriculum with literature added than to have a literature-focused with history added (we would be switching from SL). We are just starting our homeschool journey (we have only been hsing for a year and that is only PK) but it has been enough for me to research and figure out what my goals are for my son and what will work best for his learning style.

 

b) Even though I prefer a printed version since I am very visual/ tactile and like having something in my hands in front of me I can live with the change to DE if this means that it will help TOG stay in business. The DE version is actually a blessing in more than one ways for us since we live overseas and will help save on shipping costs. I can then print what I want or all of it or have it printed or print it myself on my laser printer… Whatever works! I can also replace damaged pages (if this should happen) by just printing a new one.

 

c) The price reduction seemed fair to me. TOG reducing the price by the cost of printing just makes sense in my eyes for the following reason. The product is still of the same superior quality. The quality is not going down somehow just because they are going digital, it is actually being enhanced (option wise) so bringing down the price based on the cost of printing does make sense even if it costs me a few dollars more to actually print it than getting a printed version would have cost up to now.

 

d) Not being able to resell is not a concern here since it has not really been an option for us living overseas but at the same time we have never intended to resell the curriculum we buy anyway. I spend a lot of time to investigate our curriculum choices before buying because wrong choices are much more costly for us given shipping costs. I do understand those concerned about not being able to resell though and I sympathize with you. Each family situation is different and I know some use what they make from selling one year's curriculum to fund part of the new year's materials but at the same time from what I hear and read resale is not an option for DE programs of any kind so I doubt there is a way around it. So then we each have to decide for our own family whether we love the program enough to stick with it regardless of these changes or whether we need to move on to other options.

 

e) I really respect TOG's approach on this in coming out and explaining the situation exactly, sharing with people the whole story and also answering questions on their forums to the best of their ability. This has given me great respect for the Somerville's (even though I don’t know them and have only now decided to go with TOG) and has made my desire to get TOG even greater.

 

The only concern that I have at this point is in the case that things don't work out and they do go out of business (hoping and praying that this won't be the case) and I have purchased lets say Year 1, what do I do next? I will have a program that I won't be able to continue with even if we love it (which I am pretty sure that we will) or be put in the difficult situation of deciding whether to purchase the remaining 3 years in one shot it that is given as an option in such a case. Like I said, I hope it never comes to that but I am just concerned, and while I was set to order in early 2009 I am now thinking I might wait a little longer until the summer and see what happens. Still undecided on this though since I really have my heart set on using TOG for my son and later with our baby on the way and can’t wait to get my hands on the Year 1 program and books. In the end I am thinking that even one year would be worth it rather than never experiencing it at all. I really hope that all goes smoothly with TOG’s new plans so that we can enjoy the hard work they have put into their programs for many years to come! Bottom line TOG really seems worth it to me, for our family anyway!

 

Just sharing my thoughts!

Edited November 19, 2008 by Guest

[swellmomma]

I need something physically in my hands. I have seriously considered TOG but I won't get it this way. I think it is great when things have a digital option but if I can't get it in print form I won't usually buy it.

 

I am the same way. I had never heard of it before joining this site and was considering it for next year, but at a digital copy only, not going to happen. I like having something tangible in my hands and have no desire to purchase a digital copy and then spend extra time and money printing it all out.