Help me unpack my thoughts about social thinking

[mellifera33]

My ds 10 recently received an ASD diagnosis so I've been reading about ASD-specific interventions such as the products from Social Thinking. We have You Are a Social Detective and have been reading through the book and doing the thought exercises. DS is on a waiting list for a social skills group at the local Autism clinic, which uses the same materials. 

 

Here's what is giving me pause. The ideas in Social Thinking seem to go against everything I've learned in therapy and in depression self-help materials. I have had the idea drilled into me that other people's words/actions have nothing to do with my own emotions, and that if I feel uncomfortable with another person's words/actions, it's not actually the words/actions but my thoughts about the words/actions that are causing the uncomfortable feelings. But the gist of social thinking seems to be that our words/actions have a huge impact on others' thoughts/feelings. Isn't that a lot of responsibility to put on a kid?  Another problem is the idea that I'm teaching DS to worry about what every person he interacts with is thinking of him. How can you think that way without feeling horribly self-conscious about every word you say, every action you take, the direction your eyes are looking, how your body is turned in relation to others, etc. How can I reconcile these two paradigms so that we can make the most of the materials and hopefully help DS with day to day functioning? Thank you. 

[sbgrace]

Interesting to think about. Generally, other people's actions and words do affect us--including our perceptions of them and the relationship. 

 

But you can't control what others do. So your own internal and external reactions are all the control you have. You focus on that, but not because their actions didn't cause feelings or thoughts in the first place. 

 

My request, and insistence on whatever, made my kid feel angry and misunderstood today. He can handle that in a good way---process his anger and self calm, make good choices in spite of feelings, let go of resentment, etc. He can handle it in a negative way--throw his book or yell at me (in his kid CBT terms kick against the hurdle), hold onto bitterness (kid CBT put it in his negative feelings back pack to carry around), whatever. I can't find his CBT materials right now. But I think he wasn't taught that others actions had no effect on him in the first place. That would be denial of feelings existing.

 

I, too, though have some sad sighs about social thinking. My son hates to realize that what he's doing puts others off. It's hard to face that, particularly when your natural bent is to do things that indeed put others off.  But it does. Lack of thinking about it doesn't make it less so. That said, realizing it more and more can add to anxiety and make a person feel like they failed. At least it can my kid. Autism is hard. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by sbgrace

[Mrs. Tharp]

These are good questions. When we used the Social Thinking materials in therapy, when my son was 9,  his anxiety went through the roof for the reasons you described. I no longer use it, nor do I recommend it to others. My son's therapist's opinion is that the curriculum mixes advanced ideas with overly childish vocabulary and generally only uses it with college age kids who are self aware and motivated to improve socially.

[PeterPan]

Couple precursor thoughts. One, I think you should back off teaching the materials till you understand them better, because it's not supposed to be you teaching your dc to worry, you teaching your dc to turn robotically to face the speaker, etc. etc. So you may need some time to wrap your brain around it and make sure of what you're teaching. Even though you're using preprinted lessons, honestly you're pulling an emphasis out that isn't how MGW explains it in ANY of her workshops. I have Social Detective, so maybe I can glance through it. We've used a bunch of the other stuff. I'm just saying the way you're finding it *isn't* how it's *meant* to come across, which means something is getting lost in all the lingo. I would at least pause till you get that sorted out.

 

Two, I wouldn't feel compelled to put a kid in a social skills group just because he got a label. The Social Thinking people have a very intensive level of training they'll do (by application, 1-2 weeks, blah blah) and they train those people to divide kids up based on social communication profiles. You may have seen the article on the profiles on the ST website. They specifically say what profiles go well together in social skills groups like that and point out which kids will not be well-placed in them. So imagine how odd it would be if your local person just put everyone together, irrespective of profile, saying well they all have autism or whatever. So they'd be using the ST materials but, again, not really understanding them. It's at least something to check.

 

Next, who am I to say. It's true, it causes way less anxiety to be in your own bubble and not notice how other people are feeling and not try to understand social dynamics. 

 

I think it would be interesting to back up and ask foundational questions like:

-has your dc had any lightbulb moments by going through the materials?

-has it resulted in good conversations with your dc where he seems to understand life or people around him or literature better?

-are *you* having lightbulb moments with it?

 

You've got a really complex analysis there, and I'm not sure what you're taking from it or emphasizing in it is the way MGW intended it. For most kids, merely noticing that other people have thoughts and feelings different from their own could be a HUGE LIGHTBULB MOMENT. For many adults even, these simple concepts can be HUGE. 

 

So you're getting to really complex extrapolations, and it makes sense that some people eventually get there. That doesn't mean your dc is. Also, I think because you're not working through some of her more foundational books or reading some of her more thorough books on ST, you're not seeing how all the pieces fit together. MWG has plenty of other programs that emphasize personal responsibility. The whole POINT of ST is taking responsibility for your thoughts and actions and seeing the cause/effect. 

 

We've done a lot of ST materials, but we don't do ONLY ST materials. Personally, I think there's a lot more to work on besides ST. It would be totally, totally imbalanced only to work on ST. Like right now we're working on asking questions, because it was a language gap for him. It's working back to social wondering, being able to ask questions about people, and that's all in order to have conversations, which of course is a ST goal. But we've been spending months on these rabbit trails, kwim? 

 

I think if you do a bit, give it time to gel, temper it, do something else, then you come back later, do a bit... that can be healthy. There are lots of other things to work on. NT people also go through stages of thinking everyone is thinking about them and trying to sort these issues out. It's just you're getting the ball rolling and then having to deal with the ever present, ever fun anxiety reaction. But what, should I have left my child CLUELESS that people have feelings about his behaviors? Like, hello, he needed to realize that people have feelings about his behaviors. He needed to notice MY feelings about his behaviors. It motivates him to self-regulate, because he realizes ok I did that and now I hurt my mother's feelings. Where am I at if I don't teach my dc to notice these things?

 

Now you could go at it with RDI. I think the theory behind RDI (which basically asserts that ABA/ST/direct instruction is abnormal and that we should let awareness emerge through intentional interactions to drive development) is interesting. I think it makes sense. You can make an argument for it, sure, but it's kind of a theoretical argument. At some point you get back to nitty gritties like hello I'd really like you, dc, to pick up the clue phone and at least notice SOMETHING around here.

 

I like when I see my ds applying the social thinking. I think that's a good stage or place to be, when it's spawning conversation and making them think and engaging their minds. But when it's overwhelming and causing them to shut down, definitely back off. But I think it's easy to assume the problem is the social thinking, when the reality is they have autism. Reality is, going out and doing social stuff is work. It's WORK. And it fatigues them. And the more they understand and the harder they're trying, the harder they're working.

[PeterPan]

Also, I'll just throw this out. MGW says repeatedly that the biggest error people making is teaching too much, too fast. She doesn't envision taking kids through massive amounts of curriculum. She has so many books and angles of material, but she'll quickly say she does not just sit there and take kids through stuff. It's meant to be this very slow, thought-provoking process that leads to discussion and questions. She's sort of less is more. 

 

In the workshops, she shows videos of working with kids. It's very slow. I think we tend to go through things MUCH more quickly than she does. It's loses the gradualness, the gentleness, the naturalness of it. Our behaviorist tends to do some ST then do other materials and let the ideas percolate. You can watch movies and talk about it. 

 

On the body thing, they redid the art in their lower books because of complaints about this. It's actually a pretty significant challenge, because you're teaching people who want a b&w rule when it's much more complex than that. So that's why you need to take time to percolate ideas to see them in other contexts, to let it become natural.

 

I also think it's possible to answer a question they aren't yet having. I have lots of ST materials I could use, but I'm planning to do some more RDI exercises. Right now, ST stuff isn't what he's seeking. The behaviorist is doing emotions with him and questions, and those are for communicating how he feels for self-regulating and of course for conversation. So here we are with tons of ST stuff between us, and we're doing OTHER stuff. You have to let ideas perc and then come back when they're what he needs to take the next step in understanding the world.

 

ST is not like some formula where you teach them the 8 steps and go now I know I've solved their problem. The steps are the same in ALL the materials. It's not like you complete them and are done. They're lifelong concepts.

 

Also, think about whether your dc gets cause/effect. My ds didn't when we started. Social Behavior Mapping is something that is really useful to spend time on, and it's a ST thing. There's so much more than Social Detective. You could apply the concepts to literature or movies. We apply ST concepts to our reading all the time now. It's actually really hard for him but really valuable! Like what is this person thinking, what is that person thinking is going to happen (dramatic irony, we see what IS going to happen and he has no clue, haha). Until we did that lesson on people have thoughts and feelings that our different from ours, we didn't have the basis to discuss dramatic irony, kwim? Now we do and we can have good laughs.

 

So don't belabor the social, social end of it, if it's stressing him out. Apply it other ways, pull back, find other things to work on. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[EKS]

My ds 10 recently received an ASD diagnosis so I've been reading about ASD-specific interventions such as the products from Social Thinking. We have You Are a Social Detective and have been reading through the book and doing the thought exercises. DS is on a waiting list for a social skills group at the local Autism clinic, which uses the same materials. 

 

Here's what is giving me pause. The ideas in Social Thinking seem to go against everything I've learned in therapy and in depression self-help materials. I have had the idea drilled into me that other people's words/actions have nothing to do with my own emotions, and that if I feel uncomfortable with another person's words/actions, it's not actually the words/actions but my thoughts about the words/actions that are causing the uncomfortable feelings. But the gist of social thinking seems to be that our words/actions have a huge impact on others' thoughts/feelings. Isn't that a lot of responsibility to put on a kid?  Another problem is the idea that I'm teaching DS to worry about what every person he interacts with is thinking of him. How can you think that way without feeling horribly self-conscious about every word you say, every action you take, the direction your eyes are looking, how your body is turned in relation to others, etc. How can I reconcile these two paradigms so that we can make the most of the materials and hopefully help DS with day to day functioning? Thank you. 

 

I think that the intended audience makes it seem as though the messages are over the top.  A kid with ASD probably needs quite a bit of input to internalize that his words and actions have an impact on others.  Likewise with what others think of him.

[Crimson Wife]

 

Here's what is giving me pause. The ideas in Social Thinking seem to go against everything I've learned in therapy and in depression self-help materials. I have had the idea drilled into me that other people's words/actions have nothing to do with my own emotions, and that if I feel uncomfortable with another person's words/actions, it's not actually the words/actions but my thoughts about the words/actions that are causing the uncomfortable feelings. But the gist of social thinking seems to be that our words/actions have a huge impact on others' thoughts/feelings. Isn't that a lot of responsibility to put on a kid?  Another problem is the idea that I'm teaching DS to worry about what every person he interacts with is thinking of him. How can you think that way without feeling horribly self-conscious about every word you say, every action you take, the direction your eyes are looking, how your body is turned in relation to others, etc. How can I reconcile these two paradigms so that we can make the most of the materials and hopefully help DS with day to day functioning? Thank you. 

 

There's a continuum on how much an individual should be concerned about the social impact of his/her words and actions. Some people run into difficulties because they care too MUCH and some people run into difficulties because they care too LITTLE.

 

What you have bolded is absolutely true for those individuals who care too much. Presumably if you've been told this in therapy, you fall into that unhealthy extreme on the continuum.

 

Our kids fall on the opposite extreme and they really do need to be explicitly taught to recognize the impact of their words and actions, and that regardless of whether they think others SHOULD react negatively, it's happening and they need to "try another way" or "let it go" or one of the other Social Thinking techniques.

[PeterPan]

Bingo. And if you take what Crimson is saying about a continuum, you'll find that in the Social Communication profiles on the ST website. They have profiles that have significant social anxiety. Just because *you* take it that way doesn't mean a person of a different profile will. My ds has had lots of lessons on people having thoughts and feelings, and he COULD CARE LESS. He's just a nice, autism level 1, ESC kind of profile. He uses his knowledge to get more critical of other people, but he doesn't see it in himself and doesn't typically give a rip what others think.

[mellifera33]

Couple precursor thoughts. One, I think you should back off teaching the materials till you understand them better, because it's not supposed to be you teaching your dc to worry, you teaching your dc to turn robotically to face the speaker, etc. etc. So you may need some time to wrap your brain around it and make sure of what you're teaching. Even though you're using preprinted lessons, honestly you're pulling an emphasis out that isn't how MGW explains it in ANY of her workshops. I have Social Detective, so maybe I can glance through it. We've used a bunch of the other stuff. I'm just saying the way you're finding it *isn't* how it's *meant* to come across, which means something is getting lost in all the lingo. I would at least pause till you get that sorted out.

 

What would you suggest as a good first book? I've only read Social Detective and some articles and watched some of the presentations. 

 

Two, I wouldn't feel compelled to put a kid in a social skills group just because he got a label. The Social Thinking people have a very intensive level of training they'll do (by application, 1-2 weeks, blah blah) and they train those people to divide kids up based on social communication profiles. You may have seen the article on the profiles on the ST website. They specifically say what profiles go well together in social skills groups like that and point out which kids will not be well-placed in them. So imagine how odd it would be if your local person just put everyone together, irrespective of profile, saying well they all have autism or whatever. So they'd be using the ST materials but, again, not really understanding them. It's at least something to check.

 

His OT referred him to the social skills group, and made a comment about waiting for one that was appropriate for him, so I'm thinking that since they use the ST materials they put like kids in the group. I'll ask about that. 

 

Next, who am I to say. It's true, it causes way less anxiety to be in your own bubble and not notice how other people are feeling and not try to understand social dynamics. 

 

I think it would be interesting to back up and ask foundational questions like:

-has your dc had any lightbulb moments by going through the materials?

-has it resulted in good conversations with your dc where he seems to understand life or people around him or literature better?

-are *you* having lightbulb moments with it?

 

Listening with your eyes seemed to make an impression. At least on my younger son who was listening in on the conversation. lol

I am uncomfortable with the message since I tend to assume that I can go through life being invisible and forgettable to those with whom I have minor interactions.  :laugh: 

 

You've got a really complex analysis there, and I'm not sure what you're taking from it or emphasizing in it is the way MGW intended it. For most kids, merely noticing that other people have thoughts and feelings different from their own could be a HUGE LIGHTBULB MOMENT. For many adults even, these simple concepts can be HUGE. 

 

I don't see another way to take it. One page shows a cartoon girl with a frown on her face and an upset heart and the three people around her are thinking "I don't like being around Amy." "It's hard to work with her." "Playing with Amy isn't fun." The next page says "Nobody likes to be with someone who is doing what is unexpected since it makes everyone feel bad." 

 

So you're getting to really complex extrapolations, and it makes sense that some people eventually get there. That doesn't mean your dc is. Also, I think because you're not working through some of her more foundational books or reading some of her more thorough books on ST, you're not seeing how all the pieces fit together. MWG has plenty of other programs that emphasize personal responsibility. The whole POINT of ST is taking responsibility for your thoughts and actions and seeing the cause/effect. 

 

Yes, the presentation I watched emphasized that Social Detective was just about input, not output. Which actually makes it seem more hopeless to me--yeah, you're autistic, you don't know social conventions, you do the unexpected, which makes people not like you. Sucks to be you! Buy another book and maybe you'll learn to act appropriately.  :huh: 

 

DS isn't getting the same message. He actually thinks that it's hilarious to make up examples of expected and unexpected behavior.  :laugh: 

 

We've done a lot of ST materials, but we don't do ONLY ST materials. Personally, I think there's a lot more to work on besides ST. It would be totally, totally imbalanced only to work on ST. Like right now we're working on asking questions, because it was a language gap for him. It's working back to social wondering, being able to ask questions about people, and that's all in order to have conversations, which of course is a ST goal. But we've been spending months on these rabbit trails, kwim? 

 

I think if you do a bit, give it time to gel, temper it, do something else, then you come back later, do a bit... that can be healthy. There are lots of other things to work on. NT people also go through stages of thinking everyone is thinking about them and trying to sort these issues out. It's just you're getting the ball rolling and then having to deal with the ever present, ever fun anxiety reaction. But what, should I have left my child CLUELESS that people have feelings about his behaviors? Like, hello, he needed to realize that people have feelings about his behaviors. He needed to notice MY feelings about his behaviors. It motivates him to self-regulate, because he realizes ok I did that and now I hurt my mother's feelings. Where am I at if I don't teach my dc to notice these things?

 

My kiddo is not having an anxious reaction. I'm just concerned that he might because I would. We're alike in a lot of ways, but I think our social communication profiles are different. 

 

Now you could go at it with RDI. I think the theory behind RDI (which basically asserts that ABA/ST/direct instruction is abnormal and that we should let awareness emerge through intentional interactions to drive development) is interesting. I think it makes sense. You can make an argument for it, sure, but it's kind of a theoretical argument. At some point you get back to nitty gritties like hello I'd really like you, dc, to pick up the clue phone and at least notice SOMETHING around here.

 

I like when I see my ds applying the social thinking. I think that's a good stage or place to be, when it's spawning conversation and making them think and engaging their minds. But when it's overwhelming and causing them to shut down, definitely back off. But I think it's easy to assume the problem is the social thinking, when the reality is they have autism. Reality is, going out and doing social stuff is work. It's WORK. And it fatigues them. And the more they understand and the harder they're trying, the harder they're working.

 

DS is very social, loves to be around people, and always manages to make new friends at the playground. His difficulties are pretty subtle and I think most people don't suspect that there is anything different about him if they don't know him well. It's just that some of his issues are becoming more pronounced as he gets older, and I want to set him up to succeed socially as he transitions to independence. 

 

[mellifera33]

I think that the intended audience makes it seem as though the messages are over the top.  A kid with ASD probably needs quite a bit of input to internalize that his words and actions have an impact on others.  Likewise with what others think of him.

 

Okay, I can see this. 

 

There's a continuum on how much an individual should be concerned about the social impact of his/her words and actions. Some people run into difficulties because they care too MUCH and some people run into difficulties because they care too LITTLE.

 

What you have bolded is absolutely true for those individuals who care too much. Presumably if you've been told this in therapy, you fall into that unhealthy extreme on the continuum.

 

Our kids fall on the opposite extreme and they really do need to be explicitly taught to recognize the impact of their words and actions, and that regardless of whether they think others SHOULD react negatively, it's happening and they need to "try another way" or "let it go" or one of the other Social Thinking techniques.

 

This makes sense. 

 

Bingo. And if you take what Crimson is saying about a continuum, you'll find that in the Social Communication profiles on the ST website. They have profiles that have significant social anxiety. Just because *you* take it that way doesn't mean a person of a different profile will. My ds has had lots of lessons on people having thoughts and feelings, and he COULD CARE LESS. He's just a nice, autism level 1, ESC kind of profile. He uses his knowledge to get more critical of other people, but he doesn't see it in himself and doesn't typically give a rip what others think.

 

 

Huh, I had read this several weeks ago to try to determine P's profile. I read it again and see that I have a profile there too.  :o  They are not the same. lol. 

[kbutton]

I have had mixed luck with ST materials, and what my son has done with them has been with others, but one of your responses was really telling to me, and I have done the same thing mentally--not realized that my reaction and my son's reaction would be very different.

 

 

Yes, the presentation I watched emphasized that Social Detective was just about input, not output. Which actually makes it seem more hopeless to me--yeah, you're autistic, you don't know social conventions, you do the unexpected, which makes people not like you. Sucks to be you! Buy another book and maybe you'll learn to act appropriately.   :huh: 

 

DS isn't getting the same message. He actually thinks that it's hilarious to make up examples of expected and unexpected behavior.   :laugh: 

 

This is really written for your son, yes? He is definitely going to process it differently. 

 

I have found that kids who are not as socially adept because the issue really is a different understanding (vs. they are socially NT, but they have a conduct problem) often don't take things super personally. Sometimes they have double-standards about these things too--like they might really find a certain person annoying and be able to state with stunning clarity exactly what is annoying, but they behave the exact same way. But for their behavior, they don't see it, or they feel like it's okay to behave that way because, "Fill in the blank with some totally unique answer that justifies it." 

 

I remember meeting a kid who hated to be around other kids, but he especially hated being around other kids with ASD. People were annoying. ASD kids were more annoying. But he did the same things that annoyed him, lol! I've seen it other places too, but in this case, I was getting a little bit of editorial comment from his mom, so it was more clear.

 

So yeah, ST materials are not the only thing out there, but I would definitely explore more and talk to more people about them to see if they are a good fit for your situation. I think your concerns are valid, but they might not really apply to the intended audience, KWIM? Like, your concerns are real, but they might not be a problem for your son. But they might be real negatives for you, and it's very valid for you to feel that way. 

[laundrycrisis]

I've seen it wielded in the hands of four different therapists. I've also been on the receiving end of ST advice, for me. The attitude it comes from is very important, and that comes from how the person giving the advice sees the person the advice is directed at. It can feel like having all your personality flaws nitpicked by someone who sees you as broken or defective, or uncaring and socially lazy. Or it can feel like an interpreter who wants to help you succeed socially in a foreign culture. The second is much kinder and more helpful. The label I remember as being the most caring and compassionate was the SL therapist who told me we are "literal thinkers", and there are many nuances we have no use for, but other people rely on them. She understood us and did not put us down. There was an OT who used ST like a hammer. That was critical and mean. The attitude it comes from makes all the difference. I think it's really best to think of it as a foreign language guide.

Edited September 9, 2017 by laundrycrisis

[PeterPan]

It sounds like you're sorting things out! Yes, realizing *your* social communication profile and where *you* are coming from and how it differs from *him* is probably extremely helpful. So I'll say this again, but MGW gives instructions there on what profiles to put together and what profiles DON'T go well together for instruction. Granted, it's her opinion, not gospel. However it's highly, highly unlikely the average person buying and implementing ST materials is bothering to sort all this out. They will have their own way of filtering and grouping people. But it's something you could read through their and think about and politely, in a roundabout sorta way, ask about.

 

As far as books Socialthinking - Why Teach Social Thinking? that's her most basic book. Also the https://www.socialthinking.com/Products/Thinking%20About%20YOU%20Thinking%20About%20ME%20%202nd%20Edition is pretty foundational. You could also go to workshops.

 

Laundrycrisis gave you a really good explanation of how you could have a range of implentation, even with the same materials and concepts. That's why I was suggesting you pause, figure out what the glitch is, and resume when you're back on track. It sounds like this self-discovery process, realizing where your thought process is different from his, could be a really pivotal thing and a great help for moving forward. :)

 

And yes, when it's clicking, it actually should be pretty fun to do. It has lots of carryover to real life. You can apply the concepts to your tv watching together, movies, read alouds, anything.