OK Hivemind, need help deciding between a milk cow or milk goats?

[Tani]

I would love to hear what those of you who have milkers of either kind would say. What are the pros and cons of both breeds? I have 15 acres, fenced. Also have 5 horses, 10 hens, dogs, cats, and a gecko. Have a barn for yucky days and we usually put the horses up at night as well. I have been looking at getting milk goats but have also thought about a milk cow. Being such a big decision I thought I might could get some thoughts here. Thank you so very much:001_smile:

 

Also, I am not sure how to find my posts after I write them because things seem to get "swallowed" up, kwim? It usually takes me a little while to search through the board for my posts to see replies. Thanks for patience.:tongue_smilie:

[Tracy in Ky]

I understand your indecision. We went back and forth for weeks, probably months, when we were trying to decide between dairy goats or a cow. It was so funny--we'd decide on one and I'd order a book, check some out from the library and begin studying. Then a few days later, we would change our minds, so I'd order another book or get some from the library and begin reading. Then we would change again--on and on. :willy_nilly: It was crazy.

 

Finally we decided on a cow.

 

Probably the main reason is that I felt that cow milk would be more versatile. I like goat milk and I like some goat cheese, but goat cheese isn't cow milk cheese--kwim? Cow milk cheese is so normal, so familar, and cow milk can be made into so many different familar cheeses. Goat cheese generally has a stronger flavor which is okay sometimes, but not something that I want all the time.

 

Butter was another issue. I really wanted to make butter, and I wanted the kind of butter that I am used to--cow milk butter. Goat milk is harder to make butter out of, because it comes pre-homogenized, and I wasn't sure I would like the flavor.

 

And of course there is ice cream--I love cow milk ice cream. I've not had goat milk ice cream. It may be very yummy, but--I didn't know.

 

So, when I narrowed down what I wanted, it seemed that a cow was going to fit the bill much nicer than a goat. Goats also, based on the research, require more intensive care than cows. I thought a cow would be easier to keep and keep healthy and alive. That was before our milk cow DIED, so I'm not too sure about that last bit anymore. The truth is, both dairy goats and cows require lots of care. Maybe dairy animals in general are more fragile than non-dairy. I know that holds true for dairy cows vs. beef cows.

 

I love cows; I do not love goats. I may love them if I had them, but I've never owed a goat. Cows appeal to me. I think they are sweet and beautiful and relaxing.

 

Goodness. This turned into a long reply. :001_huh::001_unsure:

 

I'm excited for you. Keep us updated on what you decide.

[Tani]

I can find at the library. And, cows sure are cute. I have thought about the butter and being able to freeze milk, but, can you believe I forgot about icecream! My favorite food! Anyhow, you made some really valid points. I think I will go and write down what I want out of a milk animal. I am now getting really excited again. Thanks.

[Tani]

What happened, if you don't mind my asking? I got excited in my last post and forgot to include this. I think my brain is going googy tonight. I have a cold with sore throat AND I am trying to be ready for a 1/2 marathon Sat morning. Go figure:tongue_smilie: Guess I will go and research more on dairy cows.

Tani

[Mama Anna]

I grew up with milk goats. They weren't pure bred and to this day I'm not fond of the taste of goat milk - but that wasn't their fault. :)

 

A couple things to think about:

 

Goats browse instead of just graze. This means that they will eat small trees or bushes. They will girdle large trees if they can get to them. On the other hand, they dispose of wild rose bushes and Canadian thistles effortlessly. Actually, with relish! They really do eat paper - keep them away from your kids' schoolwork . . . ;)

 

You'll need to breed in order to keep the milk production going. If you import a buck or bull (though I suppose you could take your does or cows out or do artificial insemination) you'll want to be a little concerned about the friendliness of the male around your family. I have no personal experience with bulls at all. Our family always kept a buck goat for the does. Some of them were more friendly than others, but none of them were dangerous to a child old enough to use common sense.

 

When you do breed, remember that goats often have twins, sometimes even triplets. Depending on the age of your kids, that might be great - some of my fondest memories of my childhood involve bottle-feeding goat kids. But you'll have to figure out what to do with them once they're weaned. I believe that cows rarely have more than one calf at a time.

 

I have little experience with cattle - the only cow my parents owned was purchased after I was in college - but I will say that all the goats I've ever known were incredibly unique and engaging. Some required bribes to not send you head-over-heels and some wouldn't stop rubbing their stinking heads on you (Word to the wise: Buck goats STINK. Badly. Be prepared.), but the number of stories my family members have from our small herd is amazing!

 

Have fun!

 

Mama Anna

 

One more possible consideration: I don't believe goats are susceptible to TB, so there's no need for pasteurization (sp?). On the other hand, our animals never gave anything that could be called cream either.

[Tracy in Ky]

I can find at the library. And, cows sure are cute. I have thought about the butter and being able to freeze milk, but, can you believe I forgot about icecream! My favorite food! Anyhow, you made some really valid points. I think I will go and write down what I want out of a milk animal. I am now getting really excited again. Thanks.

 

 

Oh. Ice cream! I made some today. The recipe I used calls for 2 cups of cream and 2 cups of whole milk! (plus 5 ounces of semi-sweet chocolate) I love skimming the cream off that milk!! Add in the fresh eggs and ooooh yummy. The ice cream was fantastic. :D

[Tani]

:D We are out of ice cream, the store-bought kind, bummer. Eats lots for me, please!

Mama Ana, Thanks for the wonderful input on goats. I am definitly leaning towards cows.

I do worry about disease's that could be transmitted but it seems that if all is carefully done the risks are less than what is happening to our public food suppy.

[Doran]

 

Dexter dairy cows. They look SO adorable to me that I find myself really wanting a couple. :001_smile:

[Tracy in Ky]

What happened, if you don't mind my asking? I got excited in my last post and forgot to include this. I think my brain is going googy tonight. I have a cold with sore throat AND I am trying to be ready for a 1/2 marathon Sat morning. Go figure:tongue_smilie: Guess I will go and research more on dairy cows.

Tani

 

We don't really know. It could have been one of several things--maybe milk fever, maybe twisted stomach. She died about a day and 1/2 after calving. We have another milk cow now, that we are borrowing for awhile (God is so good to us). We may end up buying her to see us through until the baby calf is old enough to be bred and milked.

 

Here she is. Her name was Daisy. She died about 5 1/2 weeks ago. (Ignore the camera dates. They are always wrong.)

 

 

Here is her baby Isabelle...

 

 

Here is our new (borrowed) milker Sweetheart...

 

 

 

And here is Sweetheart's milk :D

 

[Tracy in Ky]

I do worry about disease's that could be transmitted but it seems that if all is carefully done the risks are less than what is happening to our public food suppy.

 

Just keep your cow healthy, and clean her and your pails and jars well and you will be fine. We drink it raw. I LOVE raw milk.

[amy g.]

Well, I have both.

 

The flavor of goat's milk has everything to do with the breed of goats and your management-what you feed, and how you milk.

 

The two breeds of goats I have high milk fat content. This translates to extra creamy milk and ice cream as well as superior cheese. The drawback is that they give less milk per goat. People who taste our goat milk can not tell that it isn't cow milk.

 

We can not make butter from our goat milk, because it is naturally homogenized. The fat particles are smaller, and naturally distributed within the milk. Some people claim that this makes goat milk more easily digested.

 

I don't really know if goats or cows are more fragile. I expect it again depends on the breed and management practices. If you have a tragedy, and lose a goat, you will likely still have others to milk. There is also a smaller initial investment for a goat.

 

Everything gets more expensive with a cow. I pay $50 when I want to breed my goats to someone else's buck. It will cost me $250 to get our cow bred. Hopefully, offspring will sell for more. I charge $350 for a weaned doe, and $500 if I keep her a year, and sell her when she is in milk. I would only expect to get $650 for a weaned heifer calf, so the extra $200 stud fee is significant to me.

 

Last of all, their is the poo. We visited an awesome organic cow dairy on Saturday. When we got in the car to go home, Dh said, "I like goat excrement a whole lot better than cow". He is used to the completely inoffensive pellets that can be used directly in the garden.

 

We have goats due to kid in the next 6 weeks. I'll post pictures when they arrive in all their cuteness. I don't think they can compare to the sweetness of a baby calve like Izzy. That's why as soon as I have a little more money, I'll be buying another cow.

 

The only real answer to your question, is that you need both.

[Tracy in Ky]

The only real answer to your question, is that you need both.

 

:thumbup: Great answer!! lol. We always kind of want a goat. Dh would like to get one next year for dd to milk. I do LOVE goat milk, and it is supposed to be just super-healthy for your stomach.

 

I stay overwhelmed lately--learning so many new things. The thought of adding a goat in really stresses me:eek: ha.

 

Oh yes--the manure. I've been moving a lot of manure to the garden lately. Whoooooo baby. When it's fresh, it's really something!

[StaceyinLA]

Goats are generally much more manageable than cows. A 150 lb doe that gets mad at you can't do to you what an 800 lb cow can! They are certainly easier to manhandle if need be (though ours were always like our pets), and you don't need special equipment to contain goats for procedures.

 

Goat milk is healthier for you because it is naturally homogenized (and it DOES make great ice cream).

 

The volume of goat milk you get is generally more manageable than cow's. I've had goats that gave a nice, even gallon/day (some that gave nearly 2 and some that gave only 1/2), but a good gallon/day is easily used up - getting 3 or 4 gallons/day can really start to stack up quickly unless you're making cheese constantly.

 

I made really good cheese with my goat milk. The mozzarella I made was indistinguishable from cow's. Chevre is like cream cheese and very easy to make and use. I didn't do hard cheeses, but, unless you have breeds with really strong milk (toggenburgs are known for that), you shouldn't have a big taste difference with things like cheddar/colby/feta, etc.

 

Breeds do make a difference in fat quantity and taste of milk. Nubians and LaManchas have lots of fat. Alpines and Saanens not so much.

 

I find goats to be EXTREMELY hardy, especially if you get a mix. My favorite goats have been alpine/saanen crosses and alpine/nubian crosses. They seem to have such hybrid vigor when you get a good cross.

 

Another plus is cost. A nice, mixed breed dairy doe can run you $100-$200, depending on where you live. A cow is gonna be $600-$800 at least. You can have 3-4 does and rotate breeding so you'll have 2 in milk at a time. If you happen to have an incident where you lose one, you won't lose everything you've invested (nor all your milk). If you lose a cow, you're done.

 

I find goats easier to milk than cows. The teats on cows are so much more leathery than on goats. Of course, you can get a goat with small orifices or small teats and they'll be hard to milk - just watch for that when buying. I find their skin to be softer though and the teats easier to squeeze.

 

Goats don't carry the same diseases as cows. Get one that has been raised on CAE preventive if possible, or from a clean, tested herd and you should have a great start.

 

The poop is a HUGE issue for me too. Cow poop is just nasty. Goat milk much neater. Goats aren't as likely to poop while being milked. Cows don't seem to care. Goats are clean and won't eat where they poop, nor will they eat food that hits the ground. This means less worm reinfestations and, basically, just cleaner stuff going in.

 

I absolutely LOVED having goats. I had to stop milking due to carpal tunnel. My sister lives near me though, and I milk hers and get some milk here and there. It is SO delicious!!

 

So, there's my vote!!

[Tracy in Ky]

Another plus is cost. A nice, mixed breed dairy doe can run you $100-$200, depending on where you live. A cow is gonna be $600-$800 at least.

 

Dairy cows are costing around $1,400-$2,000 right now. It is unbelievable.

 

Goats are much cheaper. Dh just suggested this morning that we try a goat after Sweetheart goes back to the dairy, just to see how we like it.

 

I'm thinking that I just want to sit in the house during January and February! ha ha. By then Isabelle should be off the bottle, and we won't be milking. I want to sit by the fire with my kitties!:lol:

[amy g.]

We haven't had trouble keeping our goats in the pen after the first week. All of ours are bottle babies, so one doe was jumping the fence to follow Dd around. We added an extra layer of wire on the top of the fence, and she ended up bonding with the other goats, and doesn't want to get out now. We could probably take down the top of the fence, and she would stay put.

 

We have a Nigerian Dwarf buck, and Dd wants another one for Christmas. He is the sweetest, most gentle thing ever. I don't want a full-sized buck here, because I don't want to take a chance of him breeding the little goats.

 

I noticed my Nubian was in heat, drove her to the breeders, and watched her get bred 3 times. Then I brought her home, and am expecting January babies. That was a really painless process

 

It's not a bad idea to start out with a couple of goats, and that will help you get your feet wet. You could add a cow in a year or two. They can share much of the same milking equipment.

[Margaret in GA]

I would love to hear what those of you who have milkers of either kind would say. What are the pros and cons of both breeds? I have 15 acres, fenced. Also have 5 horses, 10 hens, dogs, cats, and a gecko. Have a barn for yucky days and we usually put the horses up at night as well. I have been looking at getting milk goats but have also thought about a milk cow. Being such a big decision I thought I might could get some thoughts here. Thank you so very much:001_smile:

 

Also, I am not sure how to find my posts after I write them because things seem to get "swallowed" up, kwim? It usually takes me a little while to search through the board for my posts to see replies. Thanks for patience.:tongue_smilie:

 

Where do you live? I ask this because if you are in the deep south worms can be a real problem for goats. Also, your fencing needs to be superb. Our biggest problem with our dairy goats is they have horns and they get their heads stuck in the horse wire we have. It's really irritating, actually to almost daily have to cut someone out of the fence. Regarding bucks, our biggest problem so far is one crazy buck that would actually buck his way out of the barn. We had 5 holes in the barn by the time we found him a new pen. And we've had mean ones in the past, too. However, a mean buck is nothing like a mean bull. I grew up on a farm and I still have nightmares about bulls and cows. All. the. time. I don't think my kids will have nightmares about little old goats, no matter how mean.

 

I have no recommendation, but just thought I'd weigh in on some of the things to consider. Good luck!

 

Margaret

[amy g.]

I would not have goats with horns. Ours were disbudded as babies.

[Tracy in Ky]

I would not have goats with horns. Ours were disbudded as babies.

 

We are going to be taking Izzy soon to have her horn buds removed. Poor baby. Also, she has 6 teats, so 2 of those need to be removed.

 

I will not be joining dh on the vet trip for those prodecures. :svengo:

[OHGrandma]

We've had both, there are pros & cons for both. Sometimes what is a pro for me would be a con for someone else.

 

Goats are harder to keep in. Electric fence will work for both cows and goats and is our preferred fencing. 1 strand can keep in a cow but 2 is better. 3 strands are needed for goats because they will need 1 high enough to prevent them from jumping over, 1 low enough to keep them from crawling under, and 1 in the middle to keep them from walking through the middle, btdt!

 

Regular worming, vaccinations, proper mineral supplementation will prevent 99% of the health problems in the animal and any diseases that might be transmissable to humans. But sometimes things happen out of your control when keeping the animal healthy.

 

Milk - 4-6 gallons/day from a cow, 1/2 - 1 1/2 gallons/day for a goat. Estimate 5 times that for their water intake. Feed intake also corresponds to milk production, but that's too much to get into on this post. If you want cream, go with the cow. If you want more digestable milk, go with a goat. Ice cream from goats or cows is equally good, try different recipes.

 

Keeping a male(bulls or bucks) -- I'd advise against it for newbies and/or if you only have 1 or 2 females. Buy your female locally from someone who can help you with the arrangements for rebreeding. Keeping a buck with your does can pass a strong odor to the milk. Keeping a bull means feeding an extra mouth vs. a breeding fee of about $50. Keeping a male for breeding is NOT for a novice. We raise beef cattle and have 3-4 beef bulls in use. My husband and I have been around dairy and/or beef cattle all our lives, I'd sell the cattle before I had a dairy bull around.

 

Remember whatever you get, it's a daily committment, twice a day! If it's 95 in the shade or -20 with the wind blowing, the animal needs to be milked, fed, & watered. If it's Sunday morning, or Christmas morning, the animal doesn't care. Although I know a few dairy farmers who calve all their cows in late Feb/March so they can dry them up the end of December and have Jan/Feb off from milking. So you can manage your dry period to correspond to your schedule somewhat.

[Guest jingles]

Good Morning!

 

We had goats and they can be a challenge. I am certain to have a cow next time. (If anyone in/near Central IL has a nice dairy cow that needs a family, please contact me!)

 

The goats' milk did not go over well with my family (wish I'd known THAT was gonna happen ahead of time!) but I did help out many people who needed goats' milk for their babies.

 

Goats will test your fencing abilities constantly. They get their heads stuck through fences and right after you get their heads out, you turn around to repair the hole and they have their head stuck through it again. Argh! They do NOT eat everything in sight, they are rather fussy eaters, actually. You have to trim goats' hooves. I do not know about trimming cows' hooves. I would not have a goat with horns, also, especially with children around.

 

Goats are easy to find to buy and they are easy to transport. Ours were easy to find new homes for when we needed to find homes for them.

Cows give a LOT more milk, even the low producers.

 

We got a (smelly) buck goat to breed the does (then we ended up with a LOT of goats) so they would stay in milk......cuz milk production went waaaaay down after a few months (sorry, I didn't keep notes *shame on me!* so I don't know the exact time frame). So you would have to think about possibly breeding your cow again (cost, transport, insemination, shipping of cow sperm, etc) and then how to deal with another calf/cow.

 

I think I was intimidated by the thought of a cow, only because I was not familiar with cows. I am not intimidate by my horse, why am I intimidated by a cow? :confused: There are some cows that live in the pasture right next door to us. They are very calm, curious, beautiful (huge!) animals. Those are cows raised for meat.

 

The laws in our state (IL) state that you cannot sell raw milk for human consumption (yet they allow McDonalds to sell "food" that isn't even close to fit for human consumption, but I'll have to vent about that on a different thread).....so you have to sell your raw milk as 'not fit for human consumption' and the customers have to go to the farm to get it (as opposed to buying it from you at, say, a farmer's market). Also, you can co-op your cow, so you are sure to have enough takers for all that milk.

 

Anyway, I hope you find the answers you need. How exciting to add a new member to your family!!

 

 

Love, Marla

[Tani]

I agree that cow poo is yucky. Goat poo reminds me of rabbit pellets. Also, I can get nubian mixes from the Mennonites who live not far from me. I have talked with them about breeding and what to do with the kids. They are willing to breed the does in return for a kid so I would not have to keep a buck. I do like the fact that goats are smaller and more easily managed. I did get a hands on lesson milking, strainging, drinking goats milk a couple of months ago and it was wonderful. The family and I all really liked the milk. It was hard to tell the difference between it and cows milk (store bought).

I have electric fences run along with my straight wire, three strands high (we had a pony at one time who was an escape artist:tongue_smilie: He would actually get on all fours somehow, and crawl under the fence!) We do only have 15 acres but a couple of our horses also wonder our neighbors field, at their request, coming home at night for grain. hmmm, so much to think about and so many wonderful responses. Thank you, thank you. I will be sure to let you know what we decide. I have a feeling that maybe with the help from the Mennonites I should maybe start there.

Tracy, your big cow and baby cow are sooo cute!

[SonshineLearner]

We knew a homeschooling family with 8 children who allowed their house trained goat inside their house. She said that the goat was easier to train than a dog...and she had white furniture and a spotless house! SO, that may be one advantage:-) They can be a member of the family??

[Tani]

'house goats'.:confused: I don't even allow our dogs or cats inside unless they are injured or ill, which has only happened twice. Still mulling over all the information and planning to go back to library for books. Thanks All.

[amy g.]

We have a little goat Dd won in a raffle. Her previous owners had let her sleep in the bed, and watch T.V.

 

We are a no-T.V. household, so the poor little goat had a bit of an adjustment.

 

Just FYI, baby goats CAN wear diapers if you keep them up with a onesie.

 

Dd has spent many a night curled on a sleeping bag next to a goat-both in the barn, and in her bedroom.

 

I wonder if I should be worried?

[StaceyinLA]

and they are just field fences with a couple strands of barbed wire (we actually had the wire for our horses and added the field fence for the goats). We do NOT do horns so getting stuck hasn't been an issue either.

 

Another thing to keep in mind, again, is the breed. Nubians can be a little more obnoxious. A saanen is generally docile (there are always exceptions of course).

 

I'm surprised there are so many folks here who would prefer cows. To me the choice is so clear - goats are cleaner, easier to manage, less expensive, and produce a healthier (for humans) milk. I know everyone has preferences, but I'd start with a goat and work my way up. You may just find you're quite content.

[supermom]

We bought dairy goats 2 weeks ago and we are soo excited about it :o). We bought Dwarf Nigerians. One is about to burst with babies. Once they are born, we will begin milking. We don't have experience with it yet, but are really looking forward to it. This size goat seems just perfect for us. They are sweet little thing and supposedly produce as much as half a gallon of milk a day. We had dairy cows when I was a child and I agree that the milk was overwhelming for us, so I think milking 2 or 3 goats will be perfect for this family. In our fields, we have barbed wire fences with hog wire half way up....and they are doing fine. At night, we put them up in a secure pen/stable.

 

We are really loving the goats and I would not choose a cow over them, but someday I'd like to get a Dexter cow. I LOVE baby cows. They are so precious. We bottlefed so many of them and they are just sweeties and aren't as obnoxious as some goats. The Dwarf Nigerians actually look like little calves and I keep finding me calling them calves...the kids correct me.

 

I don't think you could go wrong with either animal. I really had not thought about it until I read the other posts, but I like the thinking that losing a goat is nothing like losing a big cow. I have actually wondered before what I'd do with my cow if it died? I am sure I could bury a goat, but a cow?! And the financial loss is so much greater.

 

Best wishes.

Monica

 

Monica

[birchbark]

We had goats growing up, and I would say if money isn't an issue, go with a cow. And I would suggest the Dexter like others have. They are $$ though!

 

Goats are hard to keep in, and their milk is VERY touchy. If they ate the wrong thing, or the milk doesn't get chilled fast enough, you know it! Tastes, well, strong. Also since the cream doesn't separate, you don't have the option of cream and butter.

 

If you're tight on cash or space, they might be the best way to go. But I hope to have a Dexter some day. It would be great to share it with another family, so we could split the milk and chores.

[Melissa in Australia]

Dairy cows are costing around $1,400-$2,000 right now. It is unbelievable.

 

!:lol:

 

unbelievable. I thought everything was cheaper in America. I paid $500 for my first dairy cow, Jersey. called Beryl and a few years later I paid $330 for my current milker, Jersey, called Star. she has crossed over toe nails, and couldn't keep up with the heard. .

[Melissa in Australia]

I prefer cows to goats. in fact I find goats very frustrating! I have baby sat ( goat sat ?) a friend's milking goat in the past, and I thought the animal a pain. it wouldn't stand nice and still while being milked. it had to hop up onto a milking platform which it refused to do, and then it kept putting it's foot into the milking bucket. plus they seem to get hair into the milk.

my cow on the other hand just stands there beautifully, and it is so relaxing milking her.

[Tracy in Ky]

 

 

I have actually wondered before what I'd do with my cow if it died? I am sure I could bury a goat, but a cow?! And the financial loss is so much greater.

 

Best wishes.

Monica

 

Monica

 

When Daisy died, the rendering truck came to get her. I cried so hard the morning they came.

[amy g.]

I have a couple of more points about goats.

 

I don't know how patient you are, but I've had better luck buying babies than adults.

 

We started with 2 Nigerian Dwarf babies, and one adult Nubian. The babies adapted right away. The adult really had a hard time with the move. She moped around and wouldn't eat until she settled in.

 

When they kidded, the Nigerians hopped on the milk stand. I had to struggle with the Nubian every time I milked. She pulled away from me, she kicked over the milk, and tried to step on my feet.

 

When I took her to be bred the second time, she would not get out of the truck. She would not walk over to the buck pen. The breeders told me to try a dog's prong collar on her.

 

After one time using it, she has been perfect. She jumps on the milk stand and even obeys my verbal commands.

 

At first, I thought it was a breed difference, but her offspring have been raised here, and have no behavior problems at all.

 

There are pictures of both our goats and our Dexter cow on the kids' website in my sig.

[Jenn in Mo]

Just to be difficult....I vote sheep! :D

 

A friend of ours switched from goats to sheep for a season and I LOVED the sheep milk more than goat or cow. They've moved on and now I can't find a source of sheep milk anywhere. Good stuff, though I have no idea how hard it would be to milk such pendulous udders.

[Tani]

I let my kids do it, just outside. I am allergic to dogs and if I let the one kid bring their pet in, the other one will complain to bring theirs, which is a different breed, kwim?

Amy G, your website is so great. Sounds like you have a fun place. I am slowly moving us over to being more self sustaining. So far we garden organically, have chickens, looking for a milk animal. Hmmm, wonder what I will need to try next, after we get milk animal and used to that?

I have to say that all of you Ladies have been such a source of encouragement for me as I was feeling slightly unsure about adding a milking animal to our lives, but it sounds like with a little adjustment it shouldn't be too much trouble and well worth the benefits. Thank you all.