Frustrated with new dog - vent

[Murphy101]

so dh brought home a 1 yr old Boston terrier chihuahua mix 2.5 weeks ago.

 

Personally I wasn't thrilled with having something else that poops move in, but whatever.

 

Pros:

Dog is super duper sweet. The baby can chew his ears and he just whimpers and looks at the nearest adult with puppy eyes for mercy. He likes to play but if you don't want to play, he is equally thrilled to cuddle next to you.

 

He isn't dumb. He has learned his name, come, sit, no, up, down and out. He pulls he lid off the dog food dispenser when it's empty and brings it to each person until someone refills it. He knows my yarn projects and bags are off limits. The first thing he did when we came home was find the blanket I'm working on and pull it out for himself. He doesn't do that now. He mostly leaves all the baby toys alone and knows his toys are kept in a dog basket. He is still in the chew it all phase of dog life, but he quickly caught on to leave the anything not his be with the exception of those small plastic toy soldiers. Those are like doggie opium addiction to him for some reason.

 

He gets along with our other pets for the most part. He seems heartbroken that out 11 yr old miniature poodle doesn't like him and won't play with him. But the poodle is 11 and has arthritis and has no desire to frolick about. We had to break the new dog of trying to play with him bc it was causing old dog pain. But they get along

 

Cons:

 

This is starting to be close to a deal breaker for keeping him.

 

He is a creeping crapper. He knows to go scratch or ring the bells at the door to go out and he does that. But sometimes he doesn't. And sometimes could be several times a day. 🤢 The first couple days it happened I decided okay time to potty train intensely. So when we didn't have him on the leash, he was in the crate for over a two weeks. During this time, he had zero potty incidents in the house or is crate. Great right? Obviously if the problem was us not noticing or him not going frequently enough - problem solved.

 

Except every dang time we take him off leash in the house - he somehow finds a way to sneakily crap somewhere. Even if he just pooped outside not five minutes before! For example, this morning I took him outside. We played for about 20 minutes. He peed a few times. He made a big poop. And we came in. I'm standing at the counter brushing my hair and he is playing with the baby at my feet in the floor. I turn my back to dig out a hair tie and when I turn back around not even a minute later, there's a pile of poop in the floor! I say something like UGH!! Dammit dog! And he looks at me like "what? That's not my poop. Obviously this is your pup's poop!" And turns around to sit facing opposite of what is clearly his mess like if he can't see it he has no idea why the humans are so out of sorts. I know for a fact that he didn't whine or in any way act like he needed to go out. He has a knack for doing this stealth pooping and it is a big problem.

 

Listen. I have a baby crawling about in the floor. I can't have her randomly crawling through dog poop.

 

I can't just leave him in the crate all the time and he climbs my trees to escape the privacy fenced yard if left outside to him own devices. Oh yeah. That's another con but it doesn't bother me bc we don't leave out dogs outside anyways and I think I can train that out of him if given a couple more weeks.

 

But I'm at a loss how to stop the poop in the house problem at this point. The leash at all times thing is getting old and isn't going to be sustainable long term. Dh has said if we can't have him off leash and not pooping in house by the 25th, then the dog has to go back. I'd like to avoid that bc over all he is a great dog.

 

So to sum:

 

Wth did husband get this dog?

Now I'm stuck training him and I'll be the bad guy to the kids if he has to leave.

And seriously wth won't he quit with the ninja poop placements?!

And he's cute and smart so I'm mildly attached too. Which makes it extra frustrating.

 

Ugh.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Murphy101

[Pawz4me]

My guess is that something is off with him health-wise or food-wise. An adult dog (and a dog that size is pretty much an adult at a year old) shouldn't need to poop again after just being outside and doing a "big poop."

 

I would consider switching food (personally I would have done it already). No matter how "good" the food is it just may not be right for him.

 

Also, some dogs who are stealth poopers do so because a previous owner attempted to train them using harsh methods. He may have been scolded, hit, or had his nose rubbed in his poop by a stupid human. Puppies treated like that will sometimes become stealth poopers because their clueless owner is essentially teaching the dog to not poop in front of a human. That would also explain why he's turning away from you when scolded. He's been taught to do that.

 

Also, just because a dog can hold it when crated or tethered doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't need to go. Just like humans dogs can hold it to some extent. Really -- I'd consider a food switch. And I'd also make sure meals were fed on a very set schedule. Most dogs who are on a good (for them) food on a set schedule will develop a reliable pooping routine. For some it's once a day and for others twice a day. But barring a digestive/food/erratic meal time issue most do become very reliable time wise.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Pawz4me

[Plink]

2.5 weeks is a very short time.  I wouldn't expect him to "know" anything about your household for sure and certain yet.  Keep up with the crate training.  He has already shown you that it works for him.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Plink

[Murphy101]

I know holding it in his crate or while on a leash doesn't mean he can hold it indefinitely, but it does mean he can hold it enough to ring the door bell. And he has shown he clearly understands the use of the door bell. When on the leash, he always went straight to the doorbell when he needed to go potty. And when he is let out of his crate, he immediately went to the doorbell to go out. That's the entire point of leash/crating while training the dog - he is never too far from his humans to miss a training opportunity. He rings it all the time to go out. He was given the all clear from our vet. We don't feed any of our pets on a schedule. Heck, WE don't eat on a set schedule. We don't care how often he needs to go out, we just need him to reliably seek the outdoors.

 

We have not been harsh with him, though he hates his leash and cries like a limb is being torn off in his crate so that might seem harsh to him I guess.

 

I did switch our food. Not sure how long it should take to see a difference, but I'd think a bit over a week should be long enough? This doesn't seem like a diet issue though. He wasn't acting even a little bit interested in going potty when he had these accidents. Oh and he goes all night without accidents. It's only during the day.

 

Today we have been outside all day long doing landscaping and lawn work. Like trimming all my trees up so he can't climb them and moving stuff away from the fence so he can't jump off them and over the fence. We played and praised and he had free reign to pee and poo. He entered a mole hole and dug a mole up! And he seems to love grubs too.

 

And then when I came in for a drink, he pooped in the house again. Dammit. Again, I know he didn't even try to go to go to the door. The accident bothers me less than that he didn't even try to go to the door.

[melmichigan]

Are you immediately taking him outside, without any recognition of the accident, and lavishing extreme praise and treating when he goes outside?  We have a puppy that has been harder to train and that was the advice we were given.  After a few weeks of "partying" with treats, each and every time his goes outside we are having success 90% of the time. We have a strict eating schedule until the puppy is 100% housebroken for a least a month or two before we let that go, it does help to know that they usually poop around 2pm.  

 

If you're saying something like "ugh, dammit", some trainers might say you are negatively reinforcing that behavior.

 

Two weeks its a short amount of time.  If the leash is working, or the crate is working, then I would use those for a longer period of time.  It seems like forever now, but the dog will get it.  Does it matter what length of leash?  I'd make it progressively shorter over time and see if that helps.

 

I hope you figure it out, he sounds adorable.

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by melmichigan

[Murphy101]

Yes. Good lord I'm going broke on treats. We all keep a stash of treats in our pockets and he gets one when he does any good thing. Running the bell to go out. Poop or pee outside. Coming when called. Going into his crate. And lots of praise.

 

My ugh dammit was just a one time muttered exasperation. I didn't yell or anything. And usually he is no where near it so there's no point in saying anything to him about it.

 

It doesn't seem to matter what length leash we use, if he is on the leash or everyone is in bed - he doesn't go in the house.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Murphy101

[MIch elle]

My 12 yr old rat terrier poops multiple times a day no matter what food she is on. Always has.

[Murphy101]

My 12 yr old rat terrier poops multiple times a day no matter what food she is on. Always has.

In the house?! I don't care if he poops a half dozen times a day as long as he does it outside.

[StephanieZ]

My best (educated) guess is that he's afraid of pooping when you're watching, so he stealth pooping.

 

Sometimes dogs get afraid of pooping when their people can see them, typically because someone yelled at them while/after/when pooping in a "bad" place. 

 

Other times, they just got afraid of pooping because, say, someone turned on the lawnmower while he was crapping. So, now he thinks it's dangerous to poop outside. Or, someone dropped a glass of water and screamed .... while he as crapping, so now he's afraid to crap, period.

 

Most commonly, someone yells at the dog while they are (or shortly after they) crapping on the carpet. So, now the dog is simply afraid of pooping wherever that human (or all humans) can see them. So, they hide. It's usually easier to hide inside a house than in a yard . . .

 

So, maybe he only craps when he HAS to go and holds some in, meaning, the next time he feels safe, he'll poop a little more . . .

 

I.e., you saw his shit on the floor a few seconds after he pooped. You (understandably) exclaimed in a scary tone. He now thinks, "Person around poop = bad, so I better poop when she can't see me." Then, when you are outside, and can see him, he holds it . . . but inside, when you turn your back, POOP NOW BEFORE CRAZY MEAN PERSON SCREAMS. 

 

Also, dogs memories are REALLY REALLY short. You scream when you see shit on the floor. But, he shit 5 minutes ago, so he knows nothing about it being HIS SHIT. All he knows is that "crazy lady screams when she sees shit!! There's shit on the floor! Crazy lady is gonna start screaming!!" He does NOT connect that fact with the fact that he shit 5 minutes ago . . . There are good studies on this. I don't recall the exact number of seconds or minutes, but it's REALLY SHORT -- measured in seconds, not minutes. (This is why clicker training is so effective, because you can reward the behavior with an instantaneous click, even if the dog is 50 yards away . . .) 

 

So, what you need to do is find every chance to praise him while pooping in the good spots. So, leash/crate/etc him inside . . . take him outside, watch close (or have him leashed) and praise/give treat/praise like crazy. Food treats are awesome reinforcers, so go ahead and use them, along with your special words like "good boy". 

 

When he makes (or you find) a "bad" poop, DO NOT MAKE A SOUND OR AN ANGRY FACE. If you catch him in the act, scoop him up gently, with a sweet, "Oops." and carry him to the yard. Keep sweet and calm. When/if he poops out there, do your enthusiastic praise/treat routine. Rinse, repeat. 

 

You need to reinforce the GOOD behavior and MAKE IMPOSSIBLE (by crating/leashing/restricting access/etc) and IGNORE the bad behavior you can't prevent. 

 

THAT is how to untrain/retrain fear-based and/or ignorance-based misbehavior, which surely this is. (Aggression-aggression is a different beast, but pooping in the wrong place is never aggression-aggression.) 

 

In very specific situations, "punishments" such as yelling, smacking, shaking a can of noisy coins, etc can be useful for inhibiting bad behaviors. Inappropriate pooping is never in that category, though. (For instance, it can be productive to sharply yell and gently but firmly smack a young dog/pup that snaps at you . . . IF you know what you are doing and know the history of the pup ... We've done this with the dogs we've raised from puppyhood to teach them NEVER to bite a human, and it takes maybe 1-5 incidents that result in very slight smacks but noticeable and sharp "NO"s over a few weeks/months of time and then they never, ever bite again . . . Essentially, we are playing "mommy dog" and teaching the pup manners in doggy language. . . BUT, 99% of the time, humans use punishment entirely wrong, and usually cause WAY more problems than totally ignoring the problem behavior would have caused . . . SO, as a rule, I advise people NEVER to punish. ONLY redirect/ignore and REWARD REWARD REWARD. You have to create a situation that will cause the dog to do the wanted behavior so you can reinforce THAT. REWARD is what will cement the behavior. 

 

The VAST majority of time, problem behaviors are caused by humans accidentally reinforcing bad behaviors and/or accidentally inhibiting good behaviors.

 

(This is poorly re-phrased from what I learned from a PhD level canine behaviorist, so I'm not actually talking out my ass, lol.) 

 

If this doesn't make sense to you and/or doesn't work in a few weeks, then I'd highly advise consulting 1) a good vet for a physical workup and then 2) a good animal behaviorist (ask vet for a referral . .. NOT A DOG TRAINER . . .) I can almost guarantee that a behaviorist can help you fix this in a handful of consultations. They are crazy smart and can quickly figure out what your dog is thinking and how you can fix it. :)

 

Oh, also, eye contact is highly rewarding to dogs. Make eye contact when you praise!! (And breaking eye contact is a VERY effective way to "punish". For instance, breaking eye contact by turning your head is a GREAT way to discourage things like jumping up on guests, etc. Which is why so many dogs are terrible about jumping up, because when they do it, we look at them in the face, put our hands on their chest . . . which they read as love!! Turn your head instantly and turn your back, and the dog will quickly stop, especially if paired with a "NO JUMP" and then with a rewarding pat/eye contact once the butt is on the floor.)

 

Oh, also, do you free feed? Maybe go to one feeding a day (or no more than two), which will result in more predictable poop schedules so you can more predictably time his outdoor time and your laser-focus on him so you can praise him like crazy for his brilliance of pooping in the grass . .. These ideas, and a million other better ones, would be quickly suggested by a smart animal behaviorist. 

 

Pick one of these guys if you are willing to do it. This is the "top shelf" of animal behaviorists, so far as I am concerned. (And the brilliant behaviorist whose teachings I've mangled in this post is on the list, lol.)

 

http://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/web/applied-behavior-caab-directory.php

 

If none of those are in your region, look for a DVM animal behaviorist (call your nearest vet school for a referral if your own vet can't refer you.) Just don't waste your time on a "dog trainer". That's fine for sit/heel/stay stuff, but for problem behaviors, you'll most likely cause more harm than good working with a trainer. 

 

They really are smart as hell, and should be able to fix you up quickly. Canine behavior isn't rocket science, but it's more subtle than we mortals can figure out most of the time. 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by StephanieZ

[melmichigan]

Yes. Good lord I'm going broke on treats. We all keep a stash of treats in our pockets and he gets one when he does any good thing. Running the bell to go out. Poop or pee outside. Coming when called. Going into his crate. And lots of praise.

 

My ugh dammit was just a one time muttered exasperation. I didn't yell or anything. And usually he is no where near it so there's no point in saying anything to him about it.

 

It doesn't seem to matter what length leash we use, if he is on the leash or everyone is in bed - he doesn't go in the house.

I agree with Stephanie, someone reinforced a negative behavior.  Animal behaviorist are awesome at quickly fixing things like this.  In the meantime, since it's working, I would shorten the leash as much as possible, or use a traffic lead, and just keep shortening it.  When you can't do that, then kennel time. You want to take away the opportunity for the negative behavior, rather than reinforce it.

[MIch elle]

In the house?! I don't care if he poops a half dozen times a day as long as he does it outside.

No, not now but for the first couple of yrs she did; and we were always home. If not she was crated and sometimes she would poop in her crate ( never in crate for more than 2-3 hrs).

 

My smooth fox terrier was never like that.

[Pen]

He sounds like mostly a great dog. I suggest food modification. A vet visit. Dog trainer visit.

 

And a doggy diaper!

 

I had 1 dog (also a dog who arrived as an adult) with a somewhat similar problem who stopped doing it after wearing a dog diaper for a few weeks. The diaper is not great to clean, but a lot better than having the mess on floor with a toddler around. Another dog turned out to have food allergy issues and when we found a right food, the problem ended.

 

After discovering the dog diaper solution I used it with my next rehomed adult dog and prevented this from the outset while still allowing plenty of free time in the house when I could not watch him. (most dogs don't like to poop in a diaper and so still pooping in diaper after a few experiences of what happens seems to indicate that there is likely a medical or allergy type cause.)

 

Also though not a little puppy, your new dog probably needs to be crated when inside and not diapered and when no one can watch him the whole time and teach him about going out every single time, just as with a new puppy being trained.

[Pen]

... Even if he just pooped outside not five minutes before! For example, this morning I took him outside. We played for about 20 minutes. He peed a few times. He made a big poop....

 

 

This much poop sounds like physical issue to me.

 

Also sounds like he needs more time to get more fully and completely "pooped out."  If he were really pooped out, another huge poop just a few minutes later would be impossible.  

 

And even absent an allergy issue with a food, some foods lead to smaller poops than others. 

 

To me it seems like ones that are grain free and higher end often take less food per pound of dog on their instructions and that seems to also lead to less poop.  Raw diet even less poop, but is hard to do.

 

In terms of behavior, I'd suggest praising and praising for the outside poop, but then staying out and trying to get him to run around and play for another 10 -20 min so that he can possibly poop again while still outside and get really empty.

 

Also, are you absolutely certain it is the new dog pooping inside and not the 11 year old dog? 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Pen