Phonics Question

[mamaofgirls]

My dd and I are finishing up our first year of homeschooling, K5 with Abeka phonics. I think she is doing very well and it is her favorite subject. I also find Abeka easier to teach then AAR, everything seems to make sense for the both of us - it is really working so I do not want to switch BUT.....

 

I keep running into the same problem - 'why'. My daughter was spelling in her notebook things she saw outside (for fun, not school related!). She saw a horse and spelt it "hors" then said, "thats right mommy - right?" Because Abeka taught both her and I "or" as in "morning".... but then I said "almost but it needs an 'e' at the end".... she asks "why?"

 

But I dont know why?!!! I just say we will talk about that next year in school.... but when I look at the super old phonics/reading teacher manual I bought it does not say anything regarding this. Does the newer manual explain these things? Or is it part of their spelling program? Or maybe there is no reason why and I am just suppose to tell her "do it"? I dont know!!!!! This happens at least once a week and it is getting frustrating for both of us. Does 1st grade teach the why behind many phonics things? Thanks for your help :)

[mamaofgirls]

I have been reading online - and AAR has a posting about the 'e' and all of its jobs. It even mentions words like 'horse' but in ALL their sample level 2 lessons it does not mention why.... blah!! It even has a chart for explaining all 7 jobs for 'e' - which one does 'horse' go under?!!

 

https://blog.allaboutlearningpress.com/silent-e/

[wendyroo]

I have been reading online - and AAR has a posting about the 'e' and all of its jobs. It even mentions words like 'horse' but in ALL their sample level 2 lessons it does not mention why.... blah!! It even has a chart for explaining all 7 jobs for 'e' - which one does 'horse' go under?!!

 

https://blog.allaboutlearningpress.com/silent-e/

 

I think in horse, the silent e does job #4 (from the AAR list).  Without the e, hors looks like it is plural.

 

Wendy

[ByGrace3]

If you like Abeka stick with it. I didn't think it taught the "rules" well, but it did a good job with phonograms. For my dd that learned to read with Abeka, I added AAS. Maybe consider that?

[mamaofgirls]

Thank - I was laying in bed this morning and thought that maybe it is reason #1 that AAR gives. Because the o does say its long sound and the e is why (maybe there is no special sound?). It made me wonder about words like course.... ou is the speical sound. Hmmmm... I will think of it more when I wake up :)

 

I was planning on doing AAS but not start it until 2nd grade (though I know she could probably do level 1 this year). I just wanted this year to be more relaxed and 'fun'. She is only 6 and I am not ready for her to grow up yet ;-) Hmmmmm... Another thing to think about!

[ByGrace3]

Horse has an e at the end so it doesn't look plural-- Job #4.

http://downloads.allaboutlearningpress.com/downloads/Silent-E-The-Many-Jobs.pdf

[wendyroo]

Thank - I was laying in bed this morning and thought that maybe it is reason #1 that AAR gives. Because the o does say its long sound and the e is why (maybe there is no special sound?). It made me wonder about words like course.... ou is the speical sound. Hmmmm... I will think of it more when I wake up :)

 

or and our are both r-controlled phonograms that can represent the sound /or/.  In both horse and course, the e is added to the end to prevent a singular word from ending in s.

 

Wendy

[mamaofgirls]

I get it :D I think I am having a harder time understanding 'phonics' then my Kindergartner!

 

I am going to print the AAS rules poster and laminate it so I will not forget. Maybe I wouldn't have struggled so much with reading if I was taught phonics correctly...

[ReadingMama1214]

Also, spelling isn't the same as reading. So she may be able to read horse but not spell it correctly. Spelling isn't usually taught until 1st or later. But I see misspelling horse as a spelling issue. My 5 year old reads well and spells simple words correctly, but usually needs help with trickier words or she may need a reminder of a rule like "what goes on the end to make the vowel say it's name?" Or "what goes on the end to make the word not look plural?" And she will know the answer and write e. But we don't do spelling yet. Not formally.

[ElizabethB]

Here are some more spelling and phonics rules for you to keep handy:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/spelling%20rules1.pdf

[UnlikelyHomeschoolingMama]

I use ABEKA phonics and then combine with AAS, because my daughter asks "why" also and AAS answers that. She is in third grade and finishing up level 5 of AAS, so all the whys are being answers and she is a phenomenal speller.  ABEKA's spelling method of a list just tied to the special sounds didn't work at all for her for this very reason.  

[Mom27kidz]

We do ABeka Handbook for reading too.

Quick response: sometimes we use "sight words"

In other words you don't HAVE TO know the reason .... just memorize it. ABeka is very good at teaching phonics and you can absolutely trust the process of step by step instruction. 😊

[ElizabethB]

If you want more in depth reasons for all the different sound spelling patterns, watch my phonics lesson 27, it explains different spellings by language of origin.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/Phonics%20Lsns/phonicslsnslinks.html

 

You could also watch my spelling lessons for a good overview of everything, but phonics lesson 27 goes more in depth about language of origin, which is the main reason for many of the different spellings you will see.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Spelling/spellinglessonsl.html

Edited April 19, 2017 by ElizabethB

[mamaofgirls]

I use ABEKA phonics and then combine with AAS, because my daughter asks "why" also and AAS answers that. She is in third grade and finishing up level 5 of AAS, so all the whys are being answers and she is a phenomenal speller.  ABEKA's spelling method of a list just tied to the special sounds didn't work at all for her for this very reason.  

 

When did you start your dd with AAS?

[Tanaqui]

What I told my girls is that, in the past, "silent e" wasn't silent. It represented a spoken vowel, and when spoken English changed, we kept that letter. Usually the silent e tells us that the preceding vowel makes this sound instead of that, or that the preceding c/g makes its "soft" sound, but sometimes it's just there for historical reasons.

 

(Also, early typesetters just liked the look of words with an e at the end. We have a lot of weird spellings in English based on what people liked back in the day, like that silly s in island.)

[momofabcd]

I have been reading online - and AAR has a posting about the 'e' and all of its jobs. It even mentions words like 'horse' but in ALL their sample level 2 lessons it does not mention why.... blah!! It even has a chart for explaining all 7 jobs for 'e' - which one does 'horse' go under?!!

 

https://blog.allaboutlearningpress.com/silent-e/

[momofabcd]

The silent e in horse uses "no job e" or "odd job e" rule in SWR or Phonics Road. It looks like it falls under #4 in AAS. Basically the e is there To avoid possible confusion with the word being a plural. Same with house and mouse, etc.

Edited April 19, 2017 by momofabcd

[Ellie]

My dd and I are finishing up our first year of homeschooling, K5 with Abeka phonics. I think she is doing very well and it is her favorite subject. I also find ABeka easier to teach then AAR, everything seems to make sense for the both of us - it is really working so I do not want to switch BUT.....

 

I keep running into the same problem - 'why'. My daughter was spelling in her notebook things she saw outside (for fun, not school related!). She saw a horse and spelt it "hors" then said, "that's right mommy - right?" Because ABeka taught both her and I "or" as in "morning".... but then I said "almost but it needs an 'e' at the end".... she asks "why?"

 

But I don't know why?!!! I just say we will talk about that next year in school.... but when I look at the super old phonics/reading teacher manual I bought it does not say anything regarding this. Does the newer manual explain these things? Or is it part of their spelling program? Or maybe there is no reason why and I am just suppose to tell her "do it"? I don't know!!!!! This happens at least once a week and it is getting frustrating for both of us. Does 1st grade teach the why behind many phonics things? Thanks for your help :)

 

Spalding (which is the grandparent of SWR, Phonics Road, AAR/AAS, and a few others) teaches that there are five reasons for silent e:

1. To help a single vowel say its second (or "long") sound, as in "time"
2. English words don't end with u or v, so we put a final silent e ("blue" or "have")
3. To let c and g say their second sounds ("chance" and "charge")
4. Every syllable must have a vowel, even if it isn't needed to actually say the word, so we use e ("little")
5. No job e ("are")

As someone else said, phonics and spelling are not the same thing. :-) OTOH, I prefer Spalding because it teaches children to read by teaching them to spell (along with penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, and simple writing, all in one fell swoop). If you like ABeka for phonics, you'll just need to add spelling.

[mamaofgirls]

Spalding (which is the grandparent of SWR, Phonics Road, AAR/AAS, and a few others) teaches that there are five reasons for silent e:

1. To help a single vowel say its second (or "long") sound, as in "time"
2. English words don't end with u or v, so we put a final silent e ("blue" or "have")
3. To let c and g say their second sounds ("chance" and "charge")
4. Every syllable must have a vowel, even if it isn't needed to actually say the word, so we use e ("little")
5. No job e ("are")

As someone else said, phonics and spelling are not the same thing. :-) OTOH, I prefer Spalding because it teaches children to read by teaching them to spell (along with penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, and simple writing, all in one fell swoop). If you like ABeka for phonics, you'll just need to add spelling.

 

Yes, I understand that spelling and phonics are not the same thing. My daughter LOVES to write, she has been writing letters, cards, making lists since she was 3.5. Now that she is almost 6 I feel it is important that I answer her 'why' questions regarding her spelling (she asks me if it is correct or if she has the correct special sound). To just brush it off and say "Its wrong, add this" would not be very responsible (in my eyes, I am sure there are plenty of mom's who do not care or desire to answer their childrens questions) but I do - she wants to learn and that is exciting for me! I do not plan to start a spelling program formally until 2nd grade so I am sure there will be plenty more 'why' questions - the hard part for me is I do not know the answers, I learned by sight at a very, every late age...

 

[wendyroo]

Yes, I understand that spelling and phonics are not the same thing. My daughter LOVES to write, she has been writing letters, cards, making lists since she was 3.5. Now that she is almost 6 I feel it is important that I answer her 'why' questions regarding her spelling (she asks me if it is correct or if she has the correct special sound). To just brush it off and say "Its wrong, add this" would not be very responsible (in my eyes, I am sure there are plenty of mom's who do not care or desire to answer their childrens questions) but I do - she wants to learn and that is exciting for me! I do not plan to start a spelling program formally until 2nd grade so I am sure there will be plenty more 'why' questions - the hard part for me is I do not know the answers, I learned by sight at a very, every late age...

 

 

You might want to look into The ABCs and All Their Tricks.  It is a phonics/spelling reference book for teachers.

 

Wendy

[Ellie]

Yes, I understand that spelling and phonics are not the same thing. My daughter LOVES to write, she has been writing letters, cards, making lists since she was 3.5. Now that she is almost 6 I feel it is important that I answer her 'why' questions regarding her spelling (she asks me if it is correct or if she has the correct special sound). To just brush it off and say "Its wrong, add this" would not be very responsible (in my eyes, I am sure there are plenty of moms who do not care or desire to answer their childrens questions) but I do - she wants to learn and that is exciting for me! I do not plan to start a spelling program formally until 2nd grade so I am sure there will be plenty more 'why' questions - the hard part for me is I do not know the answers, I learned by sight at a very, every late age...

 

 

No one is suggesting that you brush her off. Goodness. Why would you think that?

 

One of the reasons I love, and recommend, Spalding is that it answers questions about the why (if there is an answer; sometimes there just isn't). Many people who learned sight-reading (I learned by sight as well, but I'm very visual, and I've always been a good speller partly because I can *see* how a word is spelled) have loved Spalding because it taught them how to spell.

[ReadingMama1214]

Yes, I understand that spelling and phonics are not the same thing. My daughter LOVES to write, she has been writing letters, cards, making lists since she was 3.5. Now that she is almost 6 I feel it is important that I answer her 'why' questions regarding her spelling (she asks me if it is correct or if she has the correct special sound). To just brush it off and say "Its wrong, add this" would not be very responsible (in my eyes, I am sure there are plenty of mom's who do not care or desire to answer their childrens questions) but I do - she wants to learn and that is exciting for me! I do not plan to start a spelling program formally until 2nd grade so I am sure there will be plenty more 'why' questions - the hard part for me is I do not know the answers, I learned by sight at a very, every late age...

 

By saying spelling and phonics are different I don't think anyone is telling you to brush her off. I only meant it to say that this isn't a phonics issue and that further phonics weren't needed most likely.

 

I would correct her spelling and I'd probably get a manual or something so I could know the rules to tell her. The ABCs and All of Their Tricks is a good reference for that reason.