More phonics or just keep reading

[BearWallowSchool]

How do you know when a child needs more phonics instruction or "just keep reading" will do. She is in 3rd grade. I'm trying to decide if I should go back and redo some advanced phonics lessons or just reading practice and maybe a phonics based spelling will do. I just had her pick up a Magic Tree House book because I had it on hand from the library, and read me the first chapter. I'm not sure what "level" those books are supposed to be.

Words she missed: adventure, absolutely, hordes, whirled, adventure, earlier, magic, grocery

Words she read wrong: thumbed for thumped, Amy for Annie, moon for noon, swaying for swayed

And she is still mixing up There, where,then, when. She interchanges the pairs.

I don't know if any of that information will help, but I'd like advice on what you would do with this child if she were yours. If I think of any thing else I will add it.

 

*She will be doing standardized testing next week for the first time. I may come back and ask again after I get those results back. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by BearWallowSchool

[ReadingMama1214]

I believe those books are around a mid second early third grade level.

 

You could do a phonics based spelling program. That would probably help address weak areas.

You could also work on syllable division rules which might help with the words she missed.

[forty-two]

It's not so much "practice makes perfect" as it's "perfect practice makes perfect" - if you keep practicing your mistakes, then you are cementing your mistakes instead of fixing them :doh.  So if it were my kiddo, I'd want to make sure her reading practice was training her in *how* to correctly distinguish between phonograms, and *how* to tackle unfamiliar words, especially multi-syllable words.  As soon as she starts to make a mistake, you want to stop her and walk her through the *right* process to think through the word.  Which means *you* need to know what process you are going to walk her through ;).  My top criterion for determining whether I should use a formal program or instead do informal practice of what we've already learned is: do *I* know the process I want *her* to use well enough to walk her through it explicitly?  If *I* can't explain what I want her to do in nice, clear, explicit steps, then that's when I pull out a formal program.  Not just so *she* can learn what the program teaches, but also so that *I* can learn how to *teach* it.  One benefit of well-written programs is that they teach *me* how to teach the subject.  And once *I've* learned what the program is teaching, then I can apply it to *anything* they are doing - I'm ready to use that method, and walk her through the method, on *any* bit of reading material that comes our way.

 

Looking at her particular errors, she confused b/p; my middle dd does the same (she also confuses b/d), and whenever she does, I have her make the letter with her hands (one hand for the stick, the other for the ball) - to feel which side of the stick the ball is on (for b/d) and to feel whether the ball is at the *top* or the *bottom* of the stick (for p/b).  She also confused m/n (or m/nn) - you could make those letters with your hands, too.  (For n, thumb pointed down, palm curving around for the hump, and other fingers pointing down.  For m, do that with both hands and hold them together for two humps.  For two n's side-by-side, make an 'n' with each hand and hold them with space between them.)  For the wh/th confusion, I might have her walk through identifying them each and every time you come to them in her reading, *before* she even makes an attempt at reading them.  "This letter is?  This letter is?  When they are together, they say?  So the whole word is?"

 

Wrt working through unfamiliar words, the basic process is breaking the word into syllables, and then reading it syllable by syllable.  (If she isn't able to read a given syllable, then you'd break it into phonograms and walk through it phonogram by phonogram, blending them together just like you did in reading one syllable words.)  Here's a pdf from All About Reading that summarizes the process: http://downloads.allaboutlearningpress.com/downloads/AAR_Blending_Procedure.pdf .  Here's a video showing the same process: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjBUcsVdyL8 . If you want a little more help without needing to buy a whole 'nother program, ElizabethB has free syllable division instruction and practice on her site, The Phonics Page: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/WellTaughtPhonicsStudent.html .

 

But instead of using letter tiles to walk through a word, you can use a notched card to uncover only one part of the word at a time (whether one syllable or one phonogram)  - and it pairs nicely with walking her through distinguishing between the above letters (or any combo she often has trouble with).  Reading using a notched card also helps prevent guessing (as it sounds like she did with staying/stayed - she didn't really process the ending but guessed using context clues) - it's a common way to teach kids to slow down and really focus on what's on the page phonetically.  What you do is to cut a little rectangle out of a corner of the card, as tall as a single line of the book she's reading and about an inch wide. Have her slide it along as she reads, uncovering each word as she goes.  If she starts to get a word wrong, stop right there and have her start at the beginning of the word and uncover each individual phonogram one-by-one, sounding out as she goes.  It helps kids slow down and *pay attention* to each bit of each word, and to reinforce reading left-to-right and sounding out to decode (instead of guessing or filling in the blanks with what you expect to see).

 

 

Long story short (too late ;)), I'd want to do more than just "more of the same" practice - I'd want to target the practice toward helping her learning how to correct herself.  And whether that's best done with a formal phonics review, or with informal practice of phonics lessons during her reading practice (paired with phonetic spelling) depends not just on how many holes the child has in her knowledge (after a certain point, going back through a program works better than fixing individual holes ad hoc), but also a lot on how experienced the *parent* is at practicing phonics in the context of reading without a formal program.  Personally, I've had to go through a formal program at least once before I felt ready to teach through informal practice.  And a notched card, paired with stopping and working through trouble spots slowly and explicitly, can be a useful addition to most any practice or program.

[BearWallowSchool]

Thank you so much for the detailed response. And the answer is no I don't feel like I know enough to help her without explicit instructions. We used Abeka phonics and I feel like we know the *charts* but the rules for multi syllable words slipped past us! That's where we need work.  :crying:

[alisoncooks]

When my oldest was that age (and a late reader), we had a lot of success with REWARDS Intermediate by Sopris. It really helped her make that next step to longer, more difficult words.

[ReadingMama1214]

I really found this page on Elizabeth's phonics page helpful. It explains the syllable division rules and has words to practice.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/syllable%20division%20exercises1.pdf

 

We got Wise Owls Pollysyllables off Amazon and work through the lists. It divides the words into syllables and then has the student read them in context.

[forty-two]

Thank you so much for the detailed response. And the answer is no I don't feel like I know enough to help her without explicit instructions. We used Abeka phonics and I feel like we know the *charts* but the rules for multi syllable words slipped past us! That's where we need work.  :crying:

I haven't used Abeka, but people I respect think it's a strong program.  From my quick read-through of the syllabus, it does look like it's main focus is on learning all the phonograms ("special sounds") - which is a *great* foundation for reading.  Their charts ought to provide you with everything you need to sound out any syllable you come across :thumbup:.  Looking over the syllabus, Abeka phonics does also teach syllable division and common prefixes and suffixes, which is the basis for reading multi-syllable words.  But they might not explicitly highlight the process for reading multi-syllable words - they don't highlight it in the detailed scope & sequence, in any case, even though all the building blocks are there.  One option is to go back through all Abeka's syllable division work and prefix/suffix work - any lesson that involves multi-syllable words.  Another option is to go through ElizabethB's free Multi-syllable Phonics materials.  There's a *ton* of good stuff at that link.

 

A pp mentioned REWARDS - I've done that with my oldest, and it is very good.  New it's a bit pricey; I got an older edition used on Amazon for not too much (student book; teacher guide).  Here's their basic procedure for working through long, unfamiliar words:

1) Underline all the vowel sounds, saying the sound as you do (and Abeka's charts would be a big help in doing this).  This tells you how many syllables there are: number of vowel sounds = number of syllables.

2) Circle all the prefixes and suffixes, starting from the outside in. (So for prefixes, start at the beginning of the word and work forward; for suffixes, start at the end of the word and work backwards.)

3) Divide the base word into syllables (this part is implicit in REWARDS - usually it's pretty intuitive with the vowels underlined and the prefixes and suffixes identified - but you can make it explicit, too).

4. Loop your finger under each syllable, saying each part as you go.  (If your dd was having problems reading each part, Abeka's charts would help here, too.)

5. Read the word at normal speed.

 

In the lessons, they learn multi-letter vowels sounds (with a focus on being flexible, trying the first sound for that spelling first, and if it doesn't make a word, trying the next sound), prefixes and suffixes, and then practice the whole procedure step-by-step on a set of words (even if the student could read them on their own).  Later they add in reading practice, where you only go through the whole procedure on paper if you are having problems with a word; otherwise if you can read the words without working through them on paper (the goal) you can.  Toward the end, they have reading passages, where they pre-teach harder words. 

 

 

The All About Reading method I linked earlier has these steps:

1) Divide the word into syllables.

2) Label the syllable types (do this if you've learned the types in Abeka; if you haven't, then I'd skip this step - it's a short-cut to figuring out which sounds to use, but you can figure them out using your Abeka charts at the next step, too.)

3) Decode each syllable just like you would a one-syllable word.

_____3a) Touch each letter/phonogram in the syllable and say the sound, using your Abeka charts to figure out the sounds as needed, just like Abeka taught you.

_____3b) Go back to the beginning of the syllable and blend the first two sounds together, running your finger underneath the letters as you say them.

_____3c) Go back to the beginning of the syllable and blend all the sounds together, running your finger underneath the letters as you say them.

4) Go back to the beginning of the word and slide your finger under the word, saying the sounds of the syllables.

5) Say the word at a normal speed.

 

 

There are lots of similarities between the REWARDS method and the AAR method (and ElizabethB's method, too) - because they are all teaching you to do the same thing: phonetically read multi-syllable words. 

*AAR focuses more on identifying and blending the individual sounds in each syllable;

*ElizabethB focuses more on practicing the common syllables to automaticity (it's a lot like AAR, only instead of decoding each syllable, you just say each syllable; if you have problems, you look up your handy syllable chart and use that to help decode it);

*and REWARDS focuses more on isolating the base word and identifying the vowel sounds, and assumes the rest of decoding is automatic (which makes sense, since it is aimed toward older students). 

 

It might help to pick one of the methods and practice it yourself.  Open a book, and every longish word you come to, write it out (on paper or a whiteboard) and work through it step-by-step.  After you've done a dozen or so words, hopefully it will start to click with you.  You can try all the methods and see which you like best, or which one clicks with you (once one clicks, the others will probably click shortly afterward).  If none of them click with you even after you've worked through 20-30 words each, then you might want to go ahead and pick a program to buy - because often it helps to see it all broken down and worked through step-by-step (the Wise Owl Polysyllables a pp mentioned follows basically the same approach as ElizabethB's materials).

 

Does that help any?

Edited April 13, 2017 by forty-two

[calihil]

Look into Nessy.com, it's an online phonics game that has been shown to help with this kinds of thing. My daughter's private Classical school uses it.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[BearWallowSchool]

I haven't used Abeka, but people I respect think it's a strong program.  From my quick read-through of the syllabus, it does look like it's main focus is on learning all the phonograms ("special sounds") - which is a *great* foundation for reading.  Their charts ought to provide you with everything you need to sound out any syllable you come across :thumbup:.  Looking over the syllabus, Abeka phonics does also teach syllable division and common prefixes and suffixes, which is the basis for reading multi-syllable words.  But they might not explicitly highlight the process for reading multi-syllable words - they don't highlight it in the detailed scope & sequence, in any case, even though all the building blocks are there.  One option is to go back through all Abeka's syllable division work and prefix/suffix work - any lesson that involves multi-syllable words.  Another option is to go through ElizabethB's free Multi-syllable Phonics materials.  There's a *ton* of good stuff at that link.

 

A pp mentioned REWARDS - I've done that with my oldest, and it is very good.  New it's a bit pricey; I got an older edition used on Amazon for not too much (student book; teacher guide).  Here's their basic procedure for working through long, unfamiliar words:

1) Underline all the vowel sounds, saying the sound as you do (and Abeka's charts would be a big help in doing this).  This tells you how many syllables there are: number of vowel sounds = number of syllables.

2) Circle all the prefixes and suffixes, starting from the outside in. (So for prefixes, start at the beginning of the word and work forward; for suffixes, start at the end of the word and work backwards.)

3) Divide the base word into syllables (this part is implicit in REWARDS - usually it's pretty intuitive with the vowels underlined and the prefixes and suffixes identified - but you can make it explicit, too).

4. Loop your finger under each syllable, saying each part as you go.  (If your dd was having problems reading each part, Abeka's charts would help here, too.)

5. Read the word at normal speed.

 

In the lessons, they learn multi-letter vowels sounds (with a focus on being flexible, trying the first sound for that spelling first, and if it doesn't make a word, trying the next sound), prefixes and suffixes, and then practice the whole procedure step-by-step on a set of words (even if the student could read them on their own).  Later they add in reading practice, where you only go through the whole procedure on paper if you are having problems with a word; otherwise if you can read the words without working through them on paper (the goal) you can.  Toward the end, they have reading passages, where they pre-teach harder words. 

 

 

The All About Reading method I linked earlier has these steps:

1) Divide the word into syllables.

2) Label the syllable types (do this if you've learned the types in Abeka; if you haven't, then I'd skip this step - it's a short-cut to figuring out which sounds to use, but you can figure them out using your Abeka charts at the next step, too.)

3) Decode each syllable just like you would a one-syllable word.

_____3a) Touch each letter/phonogram in the syllable and say the sound, using your Abeka charts to figure out the sounds as needed, just like Abeka taught you.

_____3b) Go back to the beginning of the syllable and blend the first two sounds together, running your finger underneath the letters as you say them.

_____3c) Go back to the beginning of the syllable and blend all the sounds together, running your finger underneath the letters as you say them.

4) Go back to the beginning of the word and slide your finger under the word, saying the sounds of the syllables.

5) Say the word at a normal speed.

 

 

There are lots of similarities between the REWARDS method and the AAR method (and ElizabethB's method, too) - because they are all teaching you to do the same thing: phonetically read multi-syllable words. 

*AAR focuses more on identifying and blending the individual sounds in each syllable;

*ElizabethB focuses more on practicing the common syllables to automaticity (it's a lot like AAR, only instead of decoding each syllable, you just say each syllable; if you have problems, you look up your handy syllable chart and use that to help decode it);

*and REWARDS focuses more on isolating the base word and identifying the vowel sounds, and assumes the rest of decoding is automatic (which makes sense, since it is aimed toward older students). 

 

It might help to pick one of the methods and practice it yourself.  Open a book, and every longish word you come to, write it out (on paper or a whiteboard) and work through it step-by-step.  After you've done a dozen or so words, hopefully it will start to click with you.  You can try all the methods and see which you like best, or which one clicks with you (once one clicks, the others will probably click shortly afterward).  If none of them click with you even after you've worked through 20-30 words each, then you might want to go ahead and pick a program to buy - because often it helps to see it all broken down and worked through step-by-step (the Wise Owl Polysyllables a pp mentioned follows basically the same approach as ElizabethB's materials).

 

Does that help any?

 

Now that I'm thinking about it and you've said all you have, *I* didn't actually sit down and teach her the phonics lessons. She used Abeka Academy. So she may have gotten the lessons, they went over her head and I didn't catch it.  I didn't watch the lessons so I don't know how it was taught. Mom fail...

 

I read everything you posted and from what I said above I think l need the hand holding. I bought All About Reading once, I still have Levels 1 and 2 in the closet. We didn't like the tiles, so we just dabbled in it. I probably should have said that before now! They need to make an app! But I'm willing to try it again. Even though we don't like the tiles, maybe its what we need to *see* the multiple syllables. Thoughts? 

[ElizabethB]

I would try my free to print stuff first, but IMO, reading is such a foundational skill that you can't do too much. I keep working until my kids are reading at a 12th grade level and can sound out anything. All the programs mentioned are good. My free to print program has explicit instructions in the transcript and reviews phonics basics while also working on syllables and advanced phonics.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

I use a variety of basic phonics programs and alternate them with work on the full Webster's Speller, working until they can read anything automativally and accurately.

Edited April 13, 2017 by ElizabethB

[BearWallowSchool]

I would try my free to print stuff first, but IMO, reading is such a foundational skill that you can't do too much. I keep working until my kids are reading at a 12th grade level and can sound out anything. All the programs mentioned are good. My free to print program has explicit instructions in the transcript and reviews phonics basics while also working on syllables and advanced phonics.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

I use a variety of basic phonics programs and alternate them with work on the full Webster's Speller, working until they can read anything automativally and accurately.

 

I will look through this tonight. Thank you. 

[mamaofgirls]

Now that I'm thinking about it and you've said all you have, *I* didn't actually sit down and teach her the phonics lessons. She used Abeka Academy. So she may have gotten the lessons, they went over her head and I didn't catch it.  I didn't watch the lessons so I don't know how it was taught. Mom fail...

 

I read everything you posted and from what I said above I think l need the hand holding. I bought All About Reading once, I still have Levels 1 and 2 in the closet. We didn't like the tiles, so we just dabbled in it. I probably should have said that before now! They need to make an app! But I'm willing to try it again. Even though we don't like the tiles, maybe its what we need to *see* the multiple syllables. Thoughts? 

 

We started with the academy this year for k5 but about half way through my dd was not getting it. She kept saying "their going to fast" and start to cry. I stopped the video and started doing it one-on-one. The videos really helped me learn how to teach her.

 

I just purchased the last dvd lessons for 1st grade from a lady online (shhhhhh... dont tell!). We were watching a couple of the phonics lesson ones and I was loving it - what that teacher can do in 20 minutes takes me an hour! lol. But then when my dd watched one of the lessons and she said "they just keep yelling, I dont know what they are saying". I realized it will not work for her, thankfully I did not purchase the whole things from Abeka...

 

Long story short, maybe your daughter is unable to really understand what the kids/teacher is say - I find it hard to catch at times and clearly my daughter does not get it! I went through the Abeka 1st grade teacher guide today - creating an easier, day by day/lesson by lesson plan and they do teach syllables, prefixes, suffixes, compound words and the rules with them. Phonics is new to me so I am learning along side my daughter but hopefully if we take it slow and I have lots of reminder notes we will make it through this next year. I would recommend getting the 1st grade phonics manual - even an old one (mine is) - it tells you the rules/when to apply them and how to brake down words.

 

[knitgrl]

 

I read everything you posted and from what I said above I think l need the hand holding. I bought All About Reading once, I still have Levels 1 and 2 in the closet. We didn't like the tiles, so we just dabbled in it. I probably should have said that before now! They need to make an app! But I'm willing to try it again. Even though we don't like the tiles, maybe its what we need to *see* the multiple syllables. Thoughts? 

 

Fwiw, we haven't used AAR, but have used AAS and don't use the tiles at all, because dd doesn't care for them. Instead of using the tiles, I just write out the examples on the white board. Perhaps AAR can work without tiles as well.

[ByGrace3]

I used Abeka phonics with dd and your comment about missing the syllable rules is exactly why the next two kids learned to read via AAR. I did use AAS with my Abeka phonics kid though, and ETC. I think working through AAS is a great idea. We are not tile people so I rarely use them. I have found that AAS1-3 followed by Megawords is a great progression for us.

[BearWallowSchool]

I used Abeka phonics with dd and your comment about missing the syllable rules is exactly why the next two kids learned to read via AAR. I did use AAS with my Abeka phonics kid though, and ETC. I think working through AAS is a great idea. We are not tile people so I rarely use them. I have found that AAS1-3 followed by Megawords is a great progression for us.

 

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one. I was beginning to feel really dumb. Abeka is REALLY good as drilling special sounds and that gave the appearance that she was reading. We dropped the ball with the multi syllable words though. :-/ 

[BearWallowSchool]

We started with the academy this year for k5 but about half way through my dd was not getting it. She kept saying "their going to fast" and start to cry. I stopped the video and started doing it one-on-one. The videos really helped me learn how to teach her.

 

I just purchased the last dvd lessons for 1st grade from a lady online (shhhhhh... dont tell!). We were watching a couple of the phonics lesson ones and I was loving it - what that teacher can do in 20 minutes takes me an hour! lol. But then when my dd watched one of the lessons and she said "they just keep yelling, I dont know what they are saying". I realized it will not work for her, thankfully I did not purchase the whole things from Abeka...

 

Long story short, maybe your daughter is unable to really understand what the kids/teacher is say - I find it hard to catch at times and clearly my daughter does not get it! I went through the Abeka 1st grade teacher guide today - creating an easier, day by day/lesson by lesson plan and they do teach syllables, prefixes, suffixes, compound words and the rules with them. Phonics is new to me so I am learning along side my daughter but hopefully if we take it slow and I have lots of reminder notes we will make it through this next year. I would recommend getting the 1st grade phonics manual - even an old one (mine is) - it tells you the rules/when to apply them and how to brake down words.

 

I currently have my daughter doing 3rd grade videos and my son doing 1st grade. I thought it would help with all the little ones running around here. I won't be repeating this EXPENSIVE mistake again.  :glare:

[Hunter]

Alpha-Phonics is free now. RIP Sam. When Sam died his family made his books free. This was my favorite before it went free, and now, with it free, this is always my suggestion.

http://blumenfeld.campconstitution.net