I need some input - very much Christian content.

[Guest]

I'd be interested in hearing from him what he would consider "evidence."  

 

Don't think you can really PROVE that there is--or is not--a God.  Too many times, I have felt that the attempts to do so have actually been much more about one person wanting to prove s/he is RIGHT.  Or SMART.  

 

The thing that persuaded me to change from my background Christian tradition to the Orthodox Christian faith was that I saw some people living authentic Christian lives.  Praying for their enemy (and it was an *enemy*--someone on meth who was a gun freak).  Caring for his wife/widow.  Asking forgiveness from others whom they had offended (including their own children).  They fed the hungry, nursed the sick, took in the orphan, showed hospitality to strangers.  

 

They took Christ seriously, acted like He meant what He said.  They also answered about 482billion questions I had, but they never pushed...it was totally me asking, and when they didn't know, they said they didn't know.  When I argued from my then-belief, they said, "Hmmm, interesting."  They didn't set out to prove me wrong...they just spoke their beliefs and let them rest there, and trusted God to do the rest.  They loved me and didn't seek to "fix" me.  

 

Their actions spoke loudly and matched their words...and Christ's words and actions.  So, yeah, I read a lot of books, listened to a lot of podcasts...but I did that because I saw in their actions the acts of Christ and I wanted what they had.

 

 

[Liz CA]

I'd be interested in hearing from him what he would consider "evidence."  

 

Don't think you can really PROVE that there is--or is not--a God.  Too many times, I have felt that the attempts to do so have actually been much more about one person wanting to prove s/he is RIGHT.  Or SMART.  

 

The thing that persuaded me to change from my background Christian tradition to the Orthodox Christian faith was that I saw some people living authentic Christian lives.  Praying for their enemy (and it was an *enemy*--someone on meth who was a gun freak).  Caring for his wife/widow.  Asking forgiveness from others whom they had offended (including their own children).  They fed the hungry, nursed the sick, took in the orphan, showed hospitality to strangers.  

 

They took Christ seriously, acted like He meant what He said.  They also answered about 482billion questions I had, but they never pushed...it was totally me asking, and when they didn't know, they said they didn't know.  When I argued from my then-belief, they said, "Hmmm, interesting."  They didn't set out to prove me wrong...they just spoke their beliefs and let them rest there, and trusted God to do the rest.  They loved me and didn't seek to "fix" me.  

 

Their actions spoke loudly and matched their words...and Christ's words and actions.  So, yeah, I read a lot of books, listened to a lot of podcasts...but I did that because I saw in their actions the acts of Christ and I wanted what they had.

 

And that is what a church / Christian should look like. I am glad you had such a positive experience.

 

[Guest]

And that is what a church / Christian should look like. I am glad you had such a positive experience.

 

I had a positive experience...but now I also know how hard it is to be that positive experience for others.  Mercy.

[Bluegoat]

I was thinking Orthodoxy, by Chesterton, can be a very enlightening read.  But again, it probably helps to have some sense of the way people have and do talk about the big questions.  It assumes an educated audience, and a sort of education that people don't get these days.

 

It seems to me to be a fairly common problem with theology that people can have questions that they aren't really ready, ijn terms of education, to understand the answers to.  A bit as if I was finding all of the explanations meant for laypeople about gravity inadaquate, but was unable to make sense of the mathematical explanations.  Theology is a bit like that, and for that matter so is the study of history - these are disaplines people spend their whole lives on.  The really difficult questions - its unreasonable to expect popular book to give easy answers to them. 

[Bluegoat]

I think the struggle is just being able to accept that the Bible is truth, and not just stuff people made up (so the Cold Case Christianity looks good to me for that, and I ordered it). I think there is also a struggle with creation and acceptance of it as design versus just an occurrence.

 

Overall I don't think he denies that there is or could be a God, so I just like the idea of some basic "evidence" for all of the above. If he can accept that the Bible is legitimate (and I really like that the guy who wrote the Cold Case book was an athiest), then he can read the Bible to solidify other beliefs. It he's trying to read the Bible while not actually believing it is 100% truth, he's definitely not getting anything out of it.

 

I guess the idea is just for him to have proof that what he's believing in is real. Of course there is still faith involved, but he wants more of an explanation than I can give. I never really questioned it. It has always made sense to me. I have never doubted a creator, nor the existence, death and resurrection of Christ on my behalf. I may not really know why, but to me that hasn't been a huge issue. It is to him, so I want to give him the evidence.

 

I am really excited about reading some, or all, of these myself, and my daughters are wanting to read them too, just to solidify their beliefs and give them the evidence to back up what they believe if the need arises.

 

Starting off 2017 armed for battle! ;-p

 

I think the biggest issue here is that he needs to understand the basics of what constitutes evidence in history, and how we understand and evaluate texts.

 

It's pretty common of "new atheist" type forums to see people who are very passionate about scientific consensus and peer review and other aspects of that way of knowing have little or no idea of how scholars of history understand evidence.  And there is a matter of expectation - what is it he really wants evidence of?  That there was a historical Jesus?  Well, that is an uncontroversial question in terms of ancient history.  THat the Bible is a holy book?  Well, that's not really provable by any measure.  That it is a document of the kind we'd expect to be written in the 21st century, to be judged according to the same standards?  That would be difficult to do and many CHristians don't.

 

It's hard to talk about proofs or evidence without knowing what you are looking for.

[creekmom]

 It's putting him in a position where he has questioned and really wants to seek answers for himself. I'm good with that. Of course I hope he winds up on the Christianity side, but I can't make that decision for him. I would like to offer him some Christian materials that are more readable. He has input from the other side as well.

 

**Former Christian here **  I just wanted to encourage you to hold on to the view that it's his decision and it's a good thing to seek the answers for himself.  He may not end up where you want him to, but it's important that he knows it won't change your opinion of him or your love for him.   The  journey he's started takes a "hell" of a lot of courage!!

 

Don't be surprised if the apologetic books don't impress him.   Most atheists believe those books were written to reassure Christians -not written to convince atheists that God exists.  I've never come across a good argument in any of those books.  If you want him to find the truth, give him books written by atheists too - Bart Ehrman (former evangelical Christian) has written many informative books discussing the Bible.  If Jesus is the truth, he has nothing to hide.  You'll also gain a lot of respect from him bc he'll see you aren't trying to persuade him to see things the way you do.

 

I guarantee you that his number one fear right now is not hell, it's disappointing and distancing you and all the other people he loves who believe.  He wants to know the truth - that's really admirable!  Let him know how proud you are that truth is important to him, and give him the space to really investigate the claims of Christianity and all the other religions.  

[HS Mom in NC]

I do want to know, and this may be for another thread because I don't really want to derail this one totally, what denomination you are coming from with this? Because the Bible I read says if you "Believe on Jesus Christ, you shall be saved." Basically, what I'm seeing in this post is that you can want that and ask for that, but not be "chosen." That's not really in line with what I believe about salvation.

 

I'm coming from a Calvinist view of election (which I came to in my late 20s)  but I still think it applies to an Arminian view (the view I was raised with but have rejected.)   We have to be very careful we're not leading people into a belief in an argument, even a very good one.  There's a living God and salvation is a reconciled, transformed relationship with Him, not having agreed to a bunch of facts about him or participating in a set of very valid traditions and practices for believers. What did Jesus tell Nicodemus about having eternal life?  You must be spiritually reborn.

 

Also, I think it's sometimes hard for people to remove themselves emotionally from a situation that's really uncomfortable.  When it comes to wanting our dearest family members to share our faith, many believers are completely unwilling to accept the possibility that their loved ones simply won't.  It's too scary and upsetting and can cause believers to push hard on external measures.  The spouse or kids can pick up on that for the sake of keeping wife/mom happy go along to get along which doesn't do anyone any good.  Obviously wife/mom never intended that, but it can and does happen.  We have to be very careful we're not in essence trying to live someone else's spiritual life for them.  We can't assign them reading or make arguments or whatever to accomplish the transformation of the soul.  They have to seek on their own motivation and not everyone is going to be motivated to do so.  We simply pray on their behalf, perhaps until our dying day, and trust God with it.  We live our lives as a faithful testimony in front of our family and others, answering any questions they have about our faith,  and accepting that we can't transform anyone's soul. Some will come to faith and others won't. 

[StaceyinLA]

**Former Christian here ** I just wanted to encourage you to hold on to the view that it's his decision and it's a good thing to seek the answers for himself. He may not end up where you want him to, but it's important that he knows it won't change your opinion of him or your love for him. The journey he's started takes a "hell" of a lot of courage!!

 

Don't be surprised if the apologetic books don't impress him. Most atheists believe those books were written to reassure Christians -not written to convince atheists that God exists. I've never come across a good argument in any of those books. If you want him to find the truth, give him books written by atheists too - Bart Ehrman (former evangelical Christian) has written many informative books discussing the Bible. If Jesus is the truth, he has nothing to hide. You'll also gain a lot of respect from him bc he'll see you aren't trying to persuade him to see things the way you do.

 

I guarantee you that his number one fear right now is not hell, it's disappointing and distancing you and all the other people he loves who believe. He wants to know the truth - that's really admirable! Let him know how proud you are that truth is important to him, and give him the space to really investigate the claims of Christianity and all the other religions.

I agree with this post, and you make some really good points.

 

I do like that, of the books I purchased, three of the authors were atheists who became Christians. I think it will be a unique perspective.

 

I will look up Bart Ehrman as well.

[HS Mom in NC]

So I have to ask the obvious question here.  If he's genuinely motivated, why isn't he seeking out apologetics type resources himself?

[Bluegoat]

So I have to ask the obvious question here.  If he's genuinely motivated, why isn't he seeking out apologetics type resources himself?

 

It seems to me like something where it would make sense to ask someone for recommendations.  Ideally maybe someone who knows a lot about the topic, but someone who knows you well isn't a bad choice either.  It can be hard if you don't really know what you are looking for.

[Carol in Cal.]

I like Craig Parton's books, but you should preread them to see whether they suit you or not, and also whether you think your son would like the approach of this trial lawyer or not--it's quite different from most apologetics works that I have read.

 

Hugs to you, Stacy. 

[ktgrok]

Also, might help to know, is he/you looking to prove specifics like a literal 7 day creation, the flood, etc or to find evidence just in general for is there a God, why do we think so/know so, how can we understand what and who God is and isn't, etc?

 

The first would be more Strobel's stuff (and as an Old Earth Christian I don't agree with it or find it convincing) whereas the second would be more Lewis. 

[StaceyinLA]

So I have to ask the obvious question here. If he's genuinely motivated, why isn't he seeking out apologetics type resources himself?

I'm not sure he really knows what to look for. He's reading the Bible, which is good, but I've been a Christian a long time and still asked here on the boards for recommendations. I've heard of most of the authors recommended, but it doesn't mean I know which ones would suit my style of learning or reading (nor his), so I asked.

 

Right now his questions are pretty basic - he just wants more evidence. I think his issue is he has this belief system he was raised with, and he's questioning it. If he has evidence to support the foundations, it removes the doubt.

[StaceyinLA]

Also, might help to know, is he/you looking to prove specifics like a literal 7 day creation, the flood, etc or to find evidence just in general for is there a God, why do we think so/know so, how can we understand what and who God is and isn't, etc?

 

The first would be more Strobel's stuff (and as an Old Earth Christian I don't agree with it or find it convincing) whereas the second would be more Lewis.

I think more just evidence for a Creator, and evidence regarding the Bible as true and inspired.

[ktgrok]

I think more just evidence for a Creator, and evidence regarding the Bible as true and inspired.

 

Those are two very separate questions, and you may need different resources for each. And he may decide he does believe in a creator, but not that the Bible is literally true. (a place many Christians find themselves)

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm not sure he really knows what to look for. He's reading the Bible, which is good, but I've been a Christian a long time and still asked here on the boards for recommendations. I've heard of most of the authors recommended, but it doesn't mean I know which ones would suit my style of learning or reading (nor his), so I asked.

 

Right now his questions are pretty basic - he just wants more evidence. I think his issue is he has this belief system he was raised with, and he's questioning it. If he has evidence to support the foundations, it removes the doubt.

 

Then instead of finding them for him, I would explain to him how he can find those kinds resources for himself.  He can google and search amazon.com for  "apologetics," "creationism", "evidence bible inspired" and so on.  What he finds there will lead him to other links and books.  I'm a very big believer in people doing things for themselves if they're cognitively capable of it.

 

[RegGuheert]

Don't think you can really PROVE that there is--or is not--a God.

 

IMO, you can come as close to proving there is a God as you can prove anything else.  The reference MomsintheGarden and I gave, Me, The Professor, Fuzzy & The Meaning of Life goes beyond "proving" there is a God.  It provides very strong evidence that there is one, and only one, God.  It also goes on to determine the characteristics of that God.  Namely, he demonstrates that God is:

 

1) Omniscient

2) Infinitely Intelligent

3) Eternal

4) Omnipotent

5) Supernatural

6) Creator of the Universe

 

Finally, he does an excellent job of demonstrating who the One True God is.

 

Right now his questions are pretty basic - he just wants more evidence. I think his issue is he has this belief system he was raised with, and he's questioning it. If he has evidence to support the foundations, it removes the doubt.

 

My favorite resource that provides a very broad range of scientific evidence for a creator is Dr. Walter Brown's book In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood.  The previous-to-the-current version of the book is available in its entirety online at that URL.  The book is rigorously documented.  I recommend that anyone reading the book read EVERY footnote provided, since the author does not just reference the scientific papers or treatises that he discusses, but he includes the exact pertinent quotes from the authors in those footnotes.  He provides this type of information from a very broad array of sciences.  At the same time, this book is very readable.

[egao_gakari]

Regarding whether the Bible is made-up vs. divinely inspired, there is a step in between those--that the stuff that's written as history in the Bible is at least as historically accurate as other primary sources from 2000-500 B.C. Some atheists seem to believe that the whole Bible was written with the intention that it be understood as historical fact all the way through. This isn't at all the case; there is good evidence, from the lit-crit point of view, that beyond the obvious "history" and "poetry" genres, certain biblical  books were written as allegory, satire, pastiche, homage, etc. N.T. Wright is a good one who delves into those sorts of questions, while still believing that indeed it is divinely inspired (which I also believe). David Rohl is an Egyptologist, an atheist, who stumbled on evidence confirming the biblical narrative of the Exodus while doing unrelated research--his books are a bit dense but really interesting.( Often a person needs a bit of "neutral" confirmation that the Bible isn't just a bunch of silly stories.)

 

I'm a convert to the Catholic church, and one of the books that convinced me that the Bible was believable was By What Authority? by Mark Shea. His argument is based on the authority of the apostles' successors to identify which texts were inspired--which leads back to the authority of the apostles--which they received from the risen Christ--who, having proved that he was God by rising from the dead, clearly had the authority to endow the apostles with whatever authority he saw fit. It's partly written as a conversion story about his journey from Protestant to Catholic, though, so if you'd rather not make your son's waters any muddier than they already are, maybe don't just hand him that book  :laugh:

 

For more details about the argument that the Resurrection is the most plausible explanation of the evidence we have, there's N.T. Wright's The Resurrection of the Son of God (very scholarly, probably beyond what a 9th grader can absorb), or Habermas' The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus. 

 

StrangeNotions.com has a good list of recommended books for seeker atheists, various reading levels: http://www.strangenotions.com/books/#

Catholic Answers has compiled an introductory list of the resources on their website that are particularly good for non-believers to look at: http://www.catholic.com/for-non-christians Some of these are about specifically Catholic beliefs, but most are about beliefs all Christians share.

 

There's one other book that specifically addresses the Gospels as Greek-style history writing, but man I just can't remember it. I'll post again if I do. EDIT: It's Jesus and the Eyewitnesses by Richard Bauckham.

 

I would also echo the voices that have talked about being ready to ask the questions before being ready to comprehend the answers. I was the same way, and refused confirmation as a teenager in the church of my upbringing because I didn't know what my questions even were, but I knew I hadn't heard the answers yet. Now, after over a decade of wandering, I'm a faithful Catholic Christian. But I needed some training in asking questions and finding answers first--in other words, I needed to go to grad school  :lol:

 

Bear in mind, too, that as a result of your son's questioning, you have an opportunity to expand your own knowledge and understanding of your faith--certainly a result aligned with God's will, no matter where your boy ends up faith-wise  :grouphug:

Edited January 6, 2017 by egao_gakari

[scholastica]

If your son is scientific, this site http://www.magiscenter.com might appeal to him. It's run by a Catholic priest, though, so if it's not your flavor, it may not appeal to you. Fr. Spitzer is a scientist and academic himself and makes solid arguments.

Edited January 6, 2017 by scholastica

[egao_gakari]

Also, right at the 8th-10th grade reading level, the Prove It! series. Here's the "God" one. Again, I'm a Catholic, so these are written from a Catholic perspective. But there may be something similar by a Protestant publisher if you search for related books on Amazon.