Community College vs. 4yr.

[almondbutterandjelly]

In a resurrected thread, Hunter mentions that she teaches kids differently for attending community college because there are different priorities, staff, etc.  As my own daughter will almost certainly attend our local community college, I was wondering if Hunter (or anyone else) could speak to this a bit.  What skills and things do you focus on, vs. if the intent was a 4 year university?

[...................]

You'd have to check with your university.  In my neck of the woods, you have to pay extremely close attention to extremely strict entrance requirements. on top of taking as many honors and AP as you can to compete with the extremely driven international and local population here..it's a real incredible hassle.

 

In our previous state (FL), you might spend more time working on SAT prep, take or design more honors courses, work more on independent scheduling, and take more outside courses so your dc would hit the ground running with a little more experience.  Mostly, it has to do with SAT prep, depth of courses and making your student look and be ready for the stringent admission competition.  You'd also have to check with your state U's to see what their general Ed requirements are. Some states require that all students have passed certain testing benchmarks in the state high school examinations, in addition to the SAT's.

[Elizabeth 2]

You may also have to take SAT subject tests to show proficiency in specific subjects, as a homeschool transcript isn't always enough, or even accepted as proof. Also, if she is sure what she wants to study, she should know what series are best to take at the university vs. transferring. For example, the biology series was best for me to take at the four year, but to transfer in the English, physics and calculus courses.

At he community college, there was more hand holding and busy work, and teaching study skills was a part of many classes. At the university, students were expected to know how to study, self direct and advocate.

[Ellie]

In a resurrected thread, Hunter mentions that she teaches kids differently for attending community college because there are different priorities, staff, etc.  As my own daughter will almost certainly attend our local community college, I was wondering if Hunter (or anyone else) could speak to this a bit.  What skills and things do you focus on, vs. if the intent was a 4 year university?

 

Well, it isn't necessarily c.c. vs 4yr college. It is that someone might not need to attend a 4yr college (or have a desire to go to a 4yr college purely for the experience) (does anyone do that any more??)  but that a c.c. only is what is needed. Or it could be a way to spend much less money on a college education, as someone can graduate with an AA and enter the college/university as a junior.

 

And community colleges vary widely from state to state, and even within the same state. Requirements to enroll in c.c. are different from state to state, and not all 4yr colleges will accept credit from a c.c.

 

In California, anyone may attend a community college who can do the work. SAT/ACT scores and high school transcripts are not needed. Credits transfer to the state college and university systems (with some exceptions transferring to UC, but it is not difficult to determine which ones those are). Both of my daughters did c.c. instead of high school, enrolling when they were 14 as full-time college students rather than dual-enrolled high school students (not all Calif c.c. have that option). Both graduated from the c.c.; one also went to the cosmetology school at the c.c., and later transferred to San Jose State; the other decided not to continue.

 

It can be easier to take the required lower-division classes at the c.c., and the class size tends to be smaller. Many of the teachers are moonlighting teachers from the university. C.c. often have certificate programs, almost like a trade school.

 

My daughter who transferred said her c.c. classes were as challenging as the San Jose State classes; the only difference was that at the c.c. she might write a three-page paper while at CalState she'd write a five-page paper.

[....]

We're planning to send our kids to community college for 1-2 years and then transfer to a university.  I'm still having them work at a strong college prep level throughout high school.  They will reach Calculus in high school...I'm sure oldest will do really well on the ACT...  Oldest is studying 2 foreign languages.  The two oldest have great volunteer hours/experience for their applications.  So, no, I don't plan to school differently just because they are probably headed to cc first.

 

We are starting off at cc, because with 7 people living on 1 income, there is noooo way we can send them to a university without a ton of student loans.  My husband has hugely debilitating student loans from a big-name university and it was the single biggest mistake of our lives.  I don't want my kids to go through that, too.  I plan to pay cash for their first two years at cc and they can live at home for free.  

 

Our cc is a feeder school to the state university here.  Some of the cc professors also teach at the university.  They said you can call the university, tell them what your planned major is and they will tell you what classes they accept through the cc.

 

And I went to cc as a teenager...and eventually graduated from a large university in Chicago....honestly, the cc classes I took were much better quality (I know YMMV).  The class sizes were very small and you weren't sitting in an amphitheater trying to hear the professor.  There was a ton of personal attention from the professor.  Our astronomy professor even took us on an overnight camping trip...whereas at the university, you couldn't even ask a question in class...everything was dealing through the TA's - who didn't know what they were doing, either.  

 

Of course, YMMV.  Everyone is in a different situation and everyone's schools are different, too.

[MarkT]

What are your student's long term goals?    Major,  career,  etc

 

That should drive everything.

 

[gstharr]

i went the cc route a long time ago. No choice--poor grades, low sat, no money.  In California, just have to be 18 to enter.  Then the UC/ Cal State transferable classes are clearly identified. Guaranteed transfer  from  a California  cc to UC/Cal State systems with 60 transferable credits, and appropriate gpa.  None of the high school stuff required or mattered.  Worked for me.  Ended up turning down a Berkeley transfer for a private equivalent.  In retrospect, if I could have entered the university I attended as a freshman, I would not have chosen the cc route.   For me, there were social issues entering as a junior.  Also, I learned the hard way that the writing requirements for cc classes were way lower. 

[creekland]

Well, it isn't necessarily c.c. vs 4yr college. It is that someone might not need to attend a 4yr college (or have a desire to go to a 4yr college purely for the experience) (does anyone do that any more??)  

 

Absolutely!!!  This is definitely not dead - many choose it - more than choose the 2-2 route IME (and yes, they are looking for the 4 year experience at ONE college, not just the degree).

 

But that's not the point of the original thread, so... I'll mainly ask if the OP's student is planning to transfer and get a 4 year degree or not.  If not, then there really is no difference in prep (other than not needing the ACT or SAT or similar to enter cc as long as the student has graduated from homeschooling at a normal age).

 

If so, then one needs to carefully look at the cc courses and the desired 4 year school for those last two years.  I'd be in contact with the 4 year school professors in the desired major to see what they think about specific cc courses toward that major.  If they're ok with it, then all is fine.  If they have reservations, listen carefully as they have seen how well (or not) students do after transferring.  There is less (or no) worry about classes outside the major.  Admissions might tell you courses transfer, and they do because they legally have to, but that doesn't mean the courses actually cover the same material (in depth).  Only professors (at the 4 year) will know those details.  There are also situations where the credits transfer, but don't count for the major so are useless.

 

My motto that tends to work so well... ask the profs at the desired 4 year school.  I've seen too many disappointed students when they thought one thing would happen and found out otherwise - essentially wasting money and time by the courses or path they chose.  Of course, I've also seen successful students, so I'm not trying to discourage you - just help you be in that "successful" camp.

[almondbutterandjelly]

Well, to answer some questions, at the moment (10th grade), my student is thinking an Associate's Degree in Physical Therapy Assistant.  This is a meaningful occupation for her as she currently is undergoing physical therapy and believes she would enjoy it as a career.  However, we have for her whole life pushed the idea of a Bachelor's Degree as a must do.  So that's not off the table, although the Associate's Degree would come first at the community college.  And then, maybe, finish up the Bachelor's Degree at the local university.  Maybe.

 

I specifically I guess wanted to understand how I might need to prepare her differently other than standard university prep.  I know how to do that.  I don't know how to prep for community college.  I mean, we are shifting her senior year science from Physics to Anatomy and Physiology (the cc requires high school bio and chem for phys ther asst) to give her a leg up in her college level anatomy class.  Other than that, I am still requiring 4 english, 4 math (she will make it thru PreCal), 4 science, 4 social studies, 4 foreign language, 1 fine art, etc.

 

But about these different priorities that community colleges have... is it just that employability is more the priority rather than education for education's sake?  I'm just pondering if I need to do things differently in some way for her high school years...

[creekland]

I don't think you need to do anything differently than what you have planned.  One should always bone up on pre-req type courses for an intended discipline, so your opting for A&P (while keeping the other classes) is a good choice.

 

I haven't seen any different priorities for cc.  I've seen lower expectations going in (as a regular student) and more "catch up" classes offered if one doesn't test into college level classes, but that's it.  I've never seen anyone rejected as a student when aiming toward cc (and finished with high school).  It's only where they start in classes that differs.  If one is trying for a competitive program (check to see how competitive PT Assistant is), then one needs to make sure they have high grades in certain classes, etc, but so far IME, I've only seen that for nursing.  And again, if one doesn't already have it, our cc works with them to get there.

 

I'd definitely have her talking with those in the PT field to see if she's content with what an assistant does/makes, etc, but again, I recommend talking with those actually in the field for any direction one wants to take.

[Guest]

The big difference I see here is in writing, but that is because gen ed high school English doesnt teach the writing skills needed for a 4 yr college's course demands. Both the 4 year and the CC will offer 2 classes to make up that gap, but the classes at the 4yr are higher level class. The CC classes are the equivalent of high school honors English.

 

The small difference I see is math and science. CC is not demanding the higher order thinking skills that the U demands, nor is it as abstract.

 

I am not pleased with the CC courses ds took over the summer, as they were run like elementary school, with the pace set to the middle of the class and little in thinking asked. However, the equivalent courses at his U are flunk outs for pre-meds and the courses will not omit material, so he will have to make up the missing units as he needs them for his subsequent courses.

 

Students should be placed appropriately in all their courses, not taking gen ed if there is no challenge.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[creekland]

The big difference I see here is in writing, but that is because gen ed high school English doesnt teach the writing skills needed for a 4 yr college's course demands. Both the 4 year and the CC will offer 2 classes to make up that gap, but the classes at the 4yr are higher level class. The CC classes are the equivalent of high school honors English.

 

The small difference I see is math and science. CC is not demanding the higher order thinking skills that the U demands, nor is it as abstract.

 

I am not pleased with the CC courses ds took over the summer, as they were run like elementary school, with the pace set to the middle of the class and little in thinking asked. However, thr equivalent courses at his U is a flunk out for pre-meds and the courses will not omit material, so he will have to make up the missing units as he needs them for his subsequent courses.

 

Students should be placed appropriately in all their courses, not taking gen ed if there is no challenge.

 

I agree that it's definitely common for cc classes to not offer nearly as much depth as stronger 4 year schools.  That's why if one is planning to transfer they ought to be in contact with professors in their desired major at the 4 year school to see what they think.  Outside one's major it often doesn't matter TBH.

[luuknam]

Wouldn't she need to know physics for stuff like biomechanics and kinesiology?

 

http://www.apta.org/PTAEducation/Overview/

 

And if she wants to eventually become a doctor of physical therapy (it seems like it's either two years of CC to become and assistant, or grad school to become a PT), it seems she'd need 8 hours of university physics in her undergrad (I just glanced at Columbia's website for that - other schools may have different requirements).

Edited September 7, 2016 by luuknam

[almondbutterandjelly]

Wouldn't she need to know physics for stuff like biomechanics and kinesiology?

 

http://www.apta.org/PTAEducation/Overview/

 

And if she wants to eventually become a doctor of physical therapy (it seems like it's either two years of CC to become and assistant, or grad school to become a PT), it seems she'd need 8 hours of university physics in her undergrad (I just glanced at Columbia's website for that - other schools may have different requirements).

 

You know, I did think about that.  But she's already started Paleontology this year, and then she'll do Chemistry next year.  Then A&P senior year, so there's no great spot for it unless she doubles up science.  (She did bio in 9th grade.)

 

She did have a very solid Physical Science class in 8th grade.

 

Do you think it would be important to double up on science one year?  I'm not great at Physics, and my husband (who is in charge of her science) would not have time to teach her 2 sciences, so it would have to be something self-teaching.  Pacworks, perhaps?

 

She is definitely going for the Associate's.  She has no plans for a PhD.  (She's never really liked school very much although homeschool is fine and college is a different ball game.)  It's not out of the question, if she decided to do that down the road.  But she'll have to finance it herself with her PT Asst. salary.

[Elizabeth 2]

If she is going into a CC, as long as her math is sufficiently high enough, she'll do find in physics. I would actually recommend taking it at the school she will do her program. The teachers tend to know what areas need a stronger focus for the programs that school teaches.

 

The biggest issues will be Math and good essay writing skills. If those are solid, the rest is mostly application and content.

[MerryAtHope]

Honestly, I didn't do anything different knowing my kids would start at the CC and transfer--I still tried to give them the best college prep education I was able to and that they were ready for. You don't know what she might do down the line or what might be required if she transfers (I've seen some schools still want to see ACT/SAT tests for transfer students, some still want high school transcripts etc..., while others only want to see the CC transcript--so it can depend on where you go too). But I felt that whether they went on or not, they should do a college prep education so that we didn't inadvertently close any doors.

 

(With regard to the 4-year experience--if we had an affordable option, I'd totally go that route because I do think there are social benefits--but it's not financially feasible for us. We're fortunate to have a good CC and a good transfer system in our state though.)

[Guest]

I agree that it's definitely common for cc classes to not offer nearly as much depth as stronger 4 year schools. That's why if one is planning to transfer they ought to be in contact with professors in their desired major at the 4 year school to see what they think. Outside one's major it often doesn't matter TBH.

It matters if the courses are foundational. Ds only had permission to take these courses at the CC because the reduced content wont affect him too much. CC Chem would never be approved...its too little. He changed majors, and wants to grad on time, so this is the deal he worked out.

 

Students who are transferring to engineering majors are learning that they will be taking an extra year, as most of the foundational courses dont transfer...they merely serve the prep school function of providing the honors content that wasnt available to them at their high school.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[luuknam]

It matters if the courses are foundational. Ds only had permission to take these courses at the CC because the reduced content wont affect him too much. CC Chem would never be approved...its too little. He changed majors, and wants to grad on time, so this is the deal he worked out.

 

Students who are transferring to engineering majors are learning that they will be taking an extra year, as most of the foundational courses dont transfer...they merely serve the prep school function of providing the honors content that wasnt available to them at their high school.

 

That must be very regional though, as the community colleges I looked at in Texas had transfer agreements for Chem and Physics and all that (lots of people going to university actually took classes like that in the summer at the CC). Sure, if you wanted to major in Engineering, you had to make sure to take University Physics, not College Physics, but they did offer both at both the CCs and the universities I've looked at, so there wasn't any difference there.

[creekland]

That must be very regional though, as the community colleges I looked at in Texas had transfer agreements for Chem and Physics and all that (lots of people going to university actually took classes like that in the summer at the CC). Sure, if you wanted to major in Engineering, you had to make sure to take University Physics, not College Physics, but they did offer both at both the CCs and the universities I've looked at, so there wasn't any difference there.

 

It is school specific, which is why individuals need to check with the destination school.  Sometimes profs will say those courses are just fine.  Then there are the other times - even IF there are transfer agreements.  It's far better to know going in than getting surprised later.

 

There's the ideal world and the real world.  We live in the real world.  Checking things out ahead of time from those who know makes sense.  It doesn't mean no course other than the 4 year is sufficient in depth.  It means a student has no way of knowing going in, unless perhaps they are personal friends with someone who has taken the same path and can give advice.  If that's not the case profs will have seen transfer students and their capability before to know if the depth is there or not.  Admissions should not be trusted.  They rarely know, except according to the ideal world.

[creekland]

ps  It's not just transfer students.  It's always wise for students to check with profs in their major before accepting AP or DE credit for foundational courses too.