How important is understanding Algebra 2?

[Daria]

I'm slightly horrified that I'm asking this question. 

 

DS17 has struggled with math throughout school.  In the past few years he's had a lot of medical issues that have impacted attendance and made the issue worse.  As of this point, going into his senior year, he has 2.5 credits as follows:

 

1 credit in Algebra 1 

 

1 credit in Geometry

 

0.5 credits for the first quarter of Algebra 2 (our school district has the option to spread Algebra 2 over 2 years)

 

He's working on finishing out that second half of the first of Algebra 2 (does that make sense?) online.  He'll get the credit, and probably even get a B, but only because the online curriculum our district uses calculates test grades as 14% of the grade.  And every other assignment he's allowed to use notes and accept help.  This means he can fail every test and still get a decent grade.  

 

His long term goal is a B.F.A. in tech theater.  Pretty much every program we've looked at requires Algebra 2 for admissions, and for graduation requires 1 college math course at the 100 level or above, so intro to Statistics, Mathematical Ideas or something similar.  

 

His short term goal is to pass the placement test for CC so he can take one of the courses above there. 

 

Our CC does not allow high school students to take developmental math classes.

 

So this leaves us with 2 options to get that Algebra 2 credit.

 

1) He can continue with the online course through the district, which means he learns almost no math (it's really bad) but he gets the credit pretty quickly.  He's got Algebra 2 on his transcript, probably with a B in the second half, and can hopefully pass into CC and double count some 100 level math class as his last HS class and his only college class.  He would almost certainly leave the class with no lasting understanding of Algebra 2.

 

2) He can restart Algebra 2 with Florida Virtual School (a provider we've used before and think highly of), and really learn the content.  He could drop the 2A course before it shows up on his transcript, and then move to Algebra 2B. This would be a lot more work, and more risky in terms of possibly failing but he'd probably leave the class with some understanding of Algebra 2.  

 

I guess what I'm wondering is whether he's going to need the Algebra 2 content to pass "Mathematical Ideas" or whatever else he takes.  If not, does going the easy route make sense?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Given what he'll have to do in the future for his goals, nope, I don't think it's all that dire that he knows those concepts.

 

 

[Daria]

Given what he'll have to do in the future for his goals, nope, I don't think it's all that dire that he knows those concepts.

 

Will he need to know them to test into college level math?  Or to pass a class like "Mathematical ideas"?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I doubt it.  If they do placement tests they basically want to make sure you test high enough to take a class that isn't remedial.  Remedial would be considered something like basic math or algebra 1.  I took a course called Number Systems.  It sounds a lot like Mathematical Ideas.  This wasn't anything above algebra.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[Mike in SA]

Before making a recommendation, I would have to see what the college math requirement really entails.  Normally, the lowest acceptable level in college (for any major) is college algebra, which is in turn a prerequisite for statistics.

 

College algebra absolutely will require the foundation of at least algebra 2.  The remedial path is usually beginning algebra (roughly akin to algebra 1), intermediate algebra (roughly algebra 2), and then the student is ready for college algebra.

 

Would you be comfortable sharing your college options?  I would be happy to look at their requirements, and give you a more definitive answer.

[elegantlion]

Before making a recommendation, I would have to see what the college math requirement really entails.  Normally, the lowest acceptable level in college (for any major) is college algebra, which is in turn a prerequisite for statistics.

 

 

:iagree:  check colleges to see their general studies math requirements. At my school we have two options below college algebra that will fulfill that GS requirements. One is finite math the other is more math for humanities majors. However, as Mike says, many colleges have college algebra (basically algebra 3) as the lowest GS requirement. 

[elegantlion]

Before making a recommendation, I would have to see what the college math requirement really entails.  Normally, the lowest acceptable level in college (for any major) is college algebra, which is in turn a prerequisite for statistics.

 

 

:iagree:  check colleges to see their general studies math requirements. At my school we have two options below college algebra that will fulfill that GS requirements. One is finite math the other is more math for humanities majors. However, as Mike says, many colleges have college algebra (basically algebra 3) as the lowest GS requirement. 

[DebbS]

My daughter is starting college this year as a music major. Her path was similar.

 

She took 3 credits of integrated math that got her through the equivalent of Algebra I, Geometry and Algebra II by the fall of her senior year. Then in the spring of her senior year she took her college math requirement dual credit at the community college.  It was called finite math and even though it had a prerequisite of Algebra II, it didn't really require a foundation beyond what I would call Algebra I. She was placed in the course based on her SAT score but the cc also offered a placement test. Since a one semester college course gives you a full year of high school credit, she was able to graduate with 4 credits of math on her transcript.

 

We did make sure that the course would transfer as the required course to the college she will attend before selecting the class.  In our state, there is something called Transfer Indiana where the state and private colleges publish their course equivalencies and have to give transfer credit based on what they've published. If your state doesn't have something like that, I would be sure to call the university he will attend to make sure that they will accept the transfer credit as the course he needs.

 

My daughter is so happy to be facing college without having to take any more math! That plan worked great for her.

Edited July 9, 2016 by DebbS

[abcmommy]

My oldest is not mathy.  He graduated high school with the regular diploma and no alg 2.

 

 

[J-rap]

Sounds similar to one of my kids.  She made it through Algebra 2 by the skin of her teeth.  Algebra I and II and Geometry with a B grade were enough to get her accepted into college, and she somehow passed the general math placement test there (though the college still required her to take a math course -- anything at all;  she took statistics and loved it!).  However, then she transferred to a new college last year which required her to take a more difficult math placement test, and didn't pass the Algebra part.  She'll need to take College Algebra now as a junior, this fall.

 

Still, we don't regret how we did it in high school.  She is at a much better place (academically) now to take Algebra and really grasp it.  It will feel much less torturous taking it as a college student!  She is a communications/graphic design major.

[EKS]

I would guess that the *vast* majority of adults in the United States (meaning something like 90% or more) do not understand Algebra 2.  He'll be fine.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah I know I'll possibly be flamed a bit here, but I think the math requirements have gotten ridiculous.  When I took a stat course last fall (level 147 I believe), there were various majors in there.  One guy was a culinary art's major.  What in heck would a culinary arts major need with that level of stat course?  Not that that is some sort of high level, but really a consumer type math course would have been far more useful.  Turned out though in the end that he had taken the wrong course.  He could have taken a lower level stat course to fulfill the requirement.  I still don't think one needs that for culinary arts.  The math used would be stuff like costing out dishes, basic budgeting stuff, maybe some very very basic accounting, possibly stuff like ratios, etc.  All consumer type math stuff. 

[Daria]

I would guess that the *vast* majority of adults in the United States (meaning something like 90% or more) do not understand Algebra 2.  He'll be fine.

 

This is so true.  I have no doubt that even if he masters Algebra 2 he will never use it again after college, unless he decides to homeschool my grandchildren, in which case he'll probably need to relearn it.  I'm just wondering if he'll need it get into or through college. 

 

I wish that colleges offered a college level class on the money of math.  In his dream job, technical director, there is a huge amount of budget work.  A class in accounting or something similar would actually be useful.  But at least at the schools we're looking at accounting can't be used to fill the quantitative requirement.

[EKS]

This is so true.  I have no doubt that even if he masters Algebra 2 he will never use it again after college, unless he decides to homeschool my grandchildren, in which case he'll probably need to relearn it.  I'm just wondering if he'll need it get into or through college. 

 

I wish that colleges offered a college level class on the money of math.  In his dream job, technical director, there is a huge amount of budget work.  A class in accounting or something similar would actually be useful.  But at least at the schools we're looking at accounting can't be used to fill the quantitative requirement.

 

If you can get the credit on his transcript, I'd say that would be better than not having it.

 

In college, depending on the school he goes to and/or his major, he may need to take a placement test and then take a "college level" math course.  

 

That all said, I got a D in Algebra II back in the day.  Which means that I didn't learn a thing.  I went to college and ended up majoring in biochemistry.  I was able to pass the required calculus courses with no problem (notice I didn't say I aced them!).

[Daria]

If you can get the credit on his transcript, I'd say that would be better than not having it.

 

In college, depending on the school he goes to and/or his major, he may need to take a placement test and then take a "college level" math course.  

 

That all said, I got a D in Algebra II back in the day.  Which means that I didn't learn a thing.  I went to college and ended up majoring in biochemistry.  I was able to pass the required calculus courses with no problem (notice I didn't say I aced them!).

 

We'll definitely get him the credit, it's just whether he needs to learn it.  If he takes it through the public school, I can pretty much guarantee he'll get a B or C without knowing a lick of Algebra 2.  If he takes it through Florida Virtual he risks a lower grade, and will spend far more time, but will probably finish the year knowing some Algebra 2.  

[Mike in SA]

 

I wish that colleges offered a college level class on the money of math.  In his dream job, technical director, there is a huge amount of budget work.  A class in accounting or something similar would actually be useful.  But at least at the schools we're looking at accounting can't be used to fill the quantitative requirement.

 

Do you mean economic / financial math?  Most do - it's called Finite Math, and a very worthwhile course for all.

 

Again, it requires College Algebra as a prerequisite, which needs an understanding of Algebra 2.

 

 

If your child can pass the course, then it should be good enough.  But, that means all of it - not half of it.

[Daria]

Do you mean economic / financial math?  Most do - it's called Finite Math, and a very worthwhile course for all.

 

Again, it requires College Algebra as a prerequisite, which needs an understanding of Algebra 2.

 

 

If your child can pass the course, then it should be good enough.  But, that means all of it - not half of it.

 

I don't see Finite Math on the listing for our CC, and haven't noticed it in any of the 4 year college websites I've looked at.  

 

Can you explain which course you're referring to in the bolded comment, because I'm having trouble understanding what you mean here?

[MarkT]

I don't see Finite Math on the listing for our CC, and haven't noticed it in any of the 4 year college websites I've looked at.  

 

Can you explain which course you're referring to in the bolded comment, because I'm having trouble understanding what you mean here?

http://www.sscc.edu/home/jdavidso/mathadvising/aboutfinite.html

[Mike in SA]

I don't see Finite Math on the listing for our CC, and haven't noticed it in any of the 4 year college websites I've looked at.  

 

Can you explain which course you're referring to in the bolded comment, because I'm having trouble understanding what you mean here?

 

 Sorry, I was referring to algebra 2.  One can survive in life without algebra 2, but succeeding in college without it will be an uphill battle.

[DebbS]

Here's the Indiana University course description for finite math. My son took it at IU and my daughter took it at the cc and got transfer credit for it. For both of them, the course covers their college math requirement.  The say that it requires Algebra II, but I have no idea why. Possibly there is a difference between what I consider Algebra II and what they consider Algebra II given both of of my kids tested into calc without taking pre-calc.

 

MATH-M 118 Finite Mathematics (3 cr.) CASE MM, CASE N&M P: Two years of high school algebra or M014 or M018. Sets, counting, basic probability, including random variables and expected values. Linear systems, matrices, linear programming, and applications. Credit given for only one of M118, V118, S118, the sequence D116-D117, or A118.

 

If you still can't find the Finite Math course at the colleges that you're looking at, maybe you could post which colleges they are and somebody out here could point it out based on the course description. I haven't heard of a college that doesn't offer finite math under some name or another. Maybe it would called something like Intro to Discrete Math? That said, it's possible that not all colleges will allow it to fulfill their math requirement.

[Daria]

Here's the Indiana University course description for finite math. My son took it at IU and my daughter took it at the cc and got transfer credit for it. For both of them, the course covers their college math requirement. The say that it requires Algebra II, but I have no idea why. Possibly there is a difference between what I consider Algebra II and what they consider Algebra II given both of of my kids tested into calc without taking pre-calc.

 

MATH-M 118 Finite Mathematics (3 cr.) CASE MM, CASE N&M P: Two years of high school algebra or M014 or M018. Sets, counting, basic probability, including random variables and expected values. Linear systems, matrices, linear programming, and applications. Credit given for only one of M118, V118, S118, the sequence D116-D117, or A118.

 

If you still can't find the Finite Math course at the colleges that you're looking at, maybe you could post which colleges they are and somebody out here could point it out based on the course description. I haven't heard of a college that doesn't offer finite math under some name or another. Maybe it would called something like Intro to Discrete Math? That said, it's possible that not all colleges will allow it to fulfill their math requirement.

So, I matched that up with the course descriptions from the CC website, and that looks closest to "Surge of College Math". I didn't see I initially because I was looking at courses with a College Algebra prereq. The survey course just requires one to test out of remedial algebra.

 

I don't look at that description and come away thinking that it is all or even substantially about money.

[MarkT]

So, I matched that up with the course descriptions from the CC website, and that looks closest to "Surge of College Math". I didn't see I initially because I was looking at courses with a College Algebra prereq. The survey course just requires one to test out of remedial algebra.

 

I don't look at that description and come away thinking that it is all or even substantially about money.

Typically the problem types used in a Finite Math text are from Business type situations versus Physics and Engineering.

 

Applied Finite Mathematics by Rupinder Sekhon

https://www.deanza.edu/faculty/bloomroberta/sekhonappliedfinitemathematics-small.pdf

https://archive.org/details/ost-math-col10613

http://www.collegeopentextbooks.org/textbook-listings/thereviews/mathematics

 

 

Introduction to Finite Mathematics

https://math.dartmouth.edu/~doyle/docs/finite/cover/cover.html

 

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by MarkT

[DebbS]

Typically the problem types used in a Finite Math text are from Business type situations versus Physics and Engineering.

 

Applied Finite Mathematics by Rupinder Sekhon

https://www.deanza.edu/faculty/bloomroberta/sekhonappliedfinitemathematics-small.pdf

https://archive.org/details/ost-math-col10613

http://www.collegeopentextbooks.org/textbook-listings/thereviews/mathematics

 

 

Introduction to Finite Mathematics

https://math.dartmouth.edu/~doyle/docs/finite/cover/cover.html

 

The applications would also include social sciences, life sciences and economics. Some colleges have finite courses specifically targeted towards certain types of applications, but they would still cover all of the same concepts. It would really come down to differences in the exercises - especially the story problems.  So you might find the course described as Applied Math for Social Sciences, Business, etc.

 

My daughters Finite book was organized very similar to the Rupinder Sekhon above and included examples/exercises from a variety of fields.

 

You didn't post the course description for the Surge math course and I don't know what 'surge' means in terms of a math class. You might just want to call the cc and find out which courses would transfer to meet the college level requirement. They often know this information.

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by DebbS

[Mike in SA]

So, I matched that up with the course descriptions from the CC website, and that looks closest to "Surge of College Math". I didn't see I initially because I was looking at courses with a College Algebra prereq. The survey course just requires one to test out of remedial algebra.

 

I don't look at that description and come away thinking that it is all or even substantially about money.

 

I think you are hoping to find an accounting / consumer math course, but I really doubt you will find any such thing that will count for a quantitative reasoning requirement.

 

Finite math is generally business-oriented, whereas discrete math is generally more mathematical / computational.  The point is to have enough basic statistics to understand how decisions are made, how advertisers/media/politicians misuse statistics to sway you, to understand basic probabilities, solve systematic problems, and prepare for basic optimizations as used in the course of ordinary business.

 

Accounting is NOT math.  It barely even uses math, imho.  I'm not saying it isn't valuable - it is extremely valuable, as it is the basic language of business.  But, it is not math.  One rarely even needs to perform anything beyond basic arithmetic any more, as modern accounting systems manage much of that.  You mainly need to understand the rules, systems, and procedures.

 

Consumer math is unlikely to qualify for a math credit at any 4-year university.  Maybe it will somewhere, but I research math programs constantly, and I have never seen it.

[Daria]

So, I matched that up with the course descriptions from the CC website, and that looks closest to "Surge of College Math". I didn't see I initially because I was looking at courses with a College Algebra prereq. The survey course just requires one to test out of remedial algebra.

 

I don't look at that description and come away thinking that it is all or even substantially about money.

 

I obviously should not be posting from my phone as that is supposed to say "Survey of College Math".  

 

I'm not hoping to find something different, I know what the options are.  I do think it would be nice to find something that emphasized the application of math to professional contexts.  I think that many majors, including my son's, could benefit from a business math class that didn't require calculus.  

 

But it seems pretty clear that this course doesn't exist, at least not at our CC, so he'll pick something else.