Charlotte Mason method of composition

[lorisuewho]

We are using R&S spelling, but I suspect using both resources would end up being redundant. I am happy to simplify if I can cover spelling and dictation successfully with one resource!

 

Yes, let's simplify!  We use Rod and Staff English here too.  I like it!

[Soror]

At the fifth grade level, I'm just not sure that doing dictation once or twice a week is enough spelling.  However, maybe combined with doing copywork it is! 

 

My dd4th is using R&S this year, as she did last, but I don't like this level as much and find some of the exercises tedious, I'm looking for something different for when we finish this level. I was thinking 3-4 days a week for the Dict. Spelling Book, going over the passage, studied dictation and then on their own. My daughter is the type to prefer to repeat a task until proficiency, little chunks of works preferred over one big chunk. 

[Soror]

My goal is to accomplish dictation 2x per week, but some weeks we only accomplished this once. :)

 

I usually tried to balance this with handwriting (both of my girls used the Italics handwriting series) and copybook entries, which are also 2-3 times per week. This along with narrations, other languages and English grammar usually gave us enough in language arts. Also, by year 6 I switched the girls from a copybook to a more traditional commonplace book.

 

So for us it looks like this:

 

Years K-2: copywork (selected by me and I used programs like StartWrite to set it up in Italics font), handwriting and an introduction to dictation in Year 2

Years 3-5: copybook, handwriting and dictation 2x per week

Years 6+:  commonplace book (in neat handwriting...utilizing their Italics....ideally... :)), dictation 2x per week

 

My older daughter's handwriting fell off...lol...but my younger one seems more likely to keep it...so outcomes may vary!! :) LOL!

Thanks for the thoughts! My 6/7th grade son is still using a handwriting book, switched him to Italics last year, his is now finally getting some legibility to his writing.

 

I've used bits and pieces of CM, as I can never commit to any one thing. My oldest daughter seems inclined for more CM work- we're using some sheets from your website for part of her science this year :) R&S spelling will work ok for this year but I don't want to continue past this level. She is using Treasured Conversations for writing this year but I'm trying to figure out where to go after we finish it.  TBH we've not done much narration so far but are looking to do more this year. Not sure why as I did w/ my son.

[quietchapel]

At the fifth grade level, I'm just not sure that doing dictation once or twice a week is enough spelling. However, maybe combined with doing copywork it is!

If you have a strong speller and quality copywork, I think it would be plenty.

[quietchapel]

Yes, let's simplify! We use Rod and Staff English here too. I like it!

😊â¤ï¸

[KeriJ]

We are using R&S spelling, but I suspect using both resources would end up being redundant. I am happy to simplify if I can cover spelling and dictation successfully with one resource!

DD, 5th grade, dropped R&S spelling this past year and just did DDbD, R&S English and written narrations. It was lovely LA year.😊

[KeriJ]

And the Bible program we used had them copy the entire book of I John verse by verse. I considered that good for covering copywork.

[quietchapel]

DD, 5th grade, dropped R&S spelling this past year and just did DDbD, R&S English and written narrations. It was lovely LA year.😊

This is so encouraging! Thank you.

[lorisuewho]

DD, 5th grade, dropped R&S spelling this past year and just did DDbD, R&S English and written narrations. It was lovely LA year.😊

 

We did dictation day by day every day, r&s english 3x per week, and a writing program and it was NOT a lovely LA year!  Ha!  I really feel I need to get back to true CM methods.  So I'm thinking dictation 2x times a week working on the SAME passage, instead of a new one every day, keep R&S English, let the olders choose their own copywork, and just do written narrations (and try to develop more depth and directions to our oral narrations).  Then maybe I can have a lovely LA year?

Edited July 9, 2016 by lorisuewho

[quietchapel]

We did dictation day by day every day, r&s english 3x per week, and a writing program and it was NOT a lovely LA year! Ha! I really feel I need to get back to true CM methods. So I'm thinking dictation 2x times a week working on the SAME passage, instead of a new one every day, keep R&S English, let the olders choose their own copywork, and just do written narrations (and try to develop more depth and directions to our oral narrations). Then maybe I can have a lovely LA year?

Yes! Another option would be to use two dictation passages a week. Have dc copy it one day, then do dictation from it the next, then repeat. I like the idea of having the kids choose their own copywork, but my kids can turn it into an agonizingly long process!

[vaquitita]

DD, 5th grade, dropped R&S spelling this past year and just did DDbD, R&S English and written narrations. It was lovely LA year.😊

I want a lovely LA year too! :D I've already bought ELTL for next year, fingers crossed it gives me this same nice combo but in one neat package.

[Susie in MS]

I want a lovely LA year too! :D I've already bought ELTL for next year, fingers crossed it gives me this same nice combo but in one neat package.

 

This whole thread reminds me of why I chose ELTL. 

[Soror]

I bought ELTL 1 years ago for dd1 but I just didn't care for it, although I like the idea. I looked again at it for the same daughter and although I like it in theory I don't like her execution, it just doesn't fit us.

[quietchapel]

This whole thread reminds me of why I chose ELTL.

This made me laugh because I had a similar thought when I was on my third hour of our LA scope and sequence. At the time I thought, '.....and, this is what curriculum is for'

😜

[KeriJ]

This whole thread reminds me of why I chose ELTL.

😊 As lovely as our LA was last year, we're trying Cottage Press for similar reasons.

[lorisuewho]

However, going back to my original question, Charlotte Mason did not have an elaborate scope and sequence.  Oral and written narration, copywork, dictation, some grammar and living books for language arts.  It seems like it should be more homegrown and organic than I try to make it out to be. 

[8filltheheart]

Lorisuewho,

What are your own goals for writing?

I personally cannot use any sort of writing curriculum bc writing instruction books drive me crazy. But, I do know what I want my kids to be able do. Reading writing books to teach me how to teach what I want to accomplish has been a far better approach than trying to use the books to teach.

I also know that not one of my kids has developed their writing skills in the exact same way. A couple of my kids have been natural writers. They have also been deep analytical thinkers. The only real writing instruction I have had to do with them other than introducing basic writing building blocks was "fine tuning." Writing in parallel construction, for example, is not necessarily a natural tendency. Learning how to cite sources, etc.

But, then I have equally had kids who couldn't hold a coherent thought together on paper. They could talk their way anywhere, but start writing down original thoughts and meanderville would take over. Explicit instruction on how to write step by step was necessary for them to be confident in mastering their own writing abilities.

Having my own tool box of teaching methods and basic skeletal skills floating around in my head allow(s)(ed) me to teach exactly what they need(ed) vs. following a book with a predetermined skill set that may not have anything to do with what my child needs.

I guess that is a roundabout way of saying that methodology is only worth implementing if it works for the particular child. That plus knowing your ultimate destination is vital. For example, my current 9th grader could easily write beautiful narratives that represent writing like you find in Maxwell's Composition. From my perspective, that was a fine goal for late elementary and middle school, but that is not my goal for writing in high school. Her writing needs to progress to research writing incorporating journal articles or literary essays with supporting evidence. Her voice is great. Her sentence structure is beautiful. But, now she needs to advance her skills to a different level and use them as a tool to meet academic goals that I set for her. When she walks into a college classroom, my goal is that she doesn't need to learn how to write, she just needs to complete the assignments. (Just like all her older siblings before her.)

Instead of knowing how CM moved her students forward, I would want to know whether that destination matched my own. If it did, how do I take that goal backward to my kids' current skill set and move them forward from there along a path with some sort of definable goals along the way.

Edited July 9, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[quietchapel]

Lorisuewho,

 

What are your own goals for writing?

 

I personally cannot use any sort of writing curriculum bc writing instruction books drive me crazy. But, I do know what I want my kids to be able do. Reading writing books to teach me how to teach what I want to accomplish has been a far better approach than trying to use the books to teach.

 

I also know that not one of my kids has developed their writing skills in the exact same way. A couple of my kids have been natural writers. They have also been deep analytical thinkers. The only real writing instruction I have had to do with them other than introducing basic writing building blocks was "fine tuning." Writing in parallel construction, for example, is not necessarily a natural tendency. Learning how to cite sources, etc.

 

But, then I have equally had kids who couldn't hold a coherent thought together on paper. They could talk their way anywhere, but start writing down original thoughts and meanderville would take over. Explicit instruction on how to write step by step was necessary for them to be confident in mastering their own writing abilities.

 

Having my own tool box of teaching methods and basic skeletal skills floating around in my head allow(s)(ed) me to teach exactly what they need(ed) vs. following a book with a predetermined skill set that may not have anything to do with what my child needs.

 

I guess that is a roundabout way of saying that methodology is only worth implementing if it works for the particular child. That plus knowing your ultimate destination is vital. For example, my current 9th grader could easily write beautiful narratives that represent writing like you find in Maxwell's Composition. From my perspective, that was a fine goal for late elementary and middle school, but that is not my goal for writing in high school. Her writing needs to progress to research writing incorporating journal articles or literary essays with supporting evidence. Her voice is great. Her sentence structure is beautiful. But, now she needs to advance her skills to a different level and use them as a tool to meet academic goals that I set for her. When she walks into a college classroom, my goal is that she doesn't need to learn how to write, she just needs to complete the assignments. (Just like all her older siblings before her.)

 

Instead of knowing how CM moved her students forward, I would want to know whether that destination matched my own. If it did, how do I take that goal backward to my kids' current skill set and move them forward from there along a path with some sort of definable goals along the way.

Thank you. I agree. And, this takes me right back to my own goals for the summer of reading and working through materials that will help me teach.

[lorisuewho]

Lorisuewho,

 

What are your own goals for writing?

 

I personally cannot use any sort of writing curriculum bc writing instruction books drive me crazy. But, I do know what I want my kids to be able do. Reading writing books to teach me how to teach what I want to accomplish has been a far better approach than trying to use the books to teach.

 

I also know that not one of my kids has developed their writing skills in the exact same way. A couple of my kids have been natural writers. They have also been deep analytical thinkers. The only real writing instruction I have had to do with them other than introducing basic writing building blocks was "fine tuning." Writing in parallel construction, for example, is not necessarily a natural tendency. Learning how to cite sources, etc.

 

But, then I have equally had kids who couldn't hold a coherent thought together on paper. They could talk their way anywhere, but start writing down original thoughts and meanderville would take over. Explicit instruction on how to write step by step was necessary for them to be confident in mastering their own writing abilities.

 

Having my own tool box of teaching methods and basic skeletal skills floating around in my head allow(s)(ed) me to teach exactly what they need(ed) vs. following a book with a predetermined skill set that may not have anything to do with what my child needs.

 

I guess that is a roundabout way of saying that methodology is only worth implementing if it works for the particular child. That plus knowing your ultimate destination is vital. For example, my current 9th grader could easily write beautiful narratives that represent writing like you find in Maxwell's Composition. From my perspective, that was a fine goal for late elementary and middle school, but that is not my goal for writing in high school. Her writing needs to progress to research writing incorporating journal articles or literary essays with supporting evidence. Her voice is great. Her sentence structure is beautiful. But, now she needs to advance her skills to a different level and use them as a tool to meet academic goals that I set for her. When she walks into a college classroom, my goal is that she doesn't need to learn how to write, she just needs to complete the assignments. (Just like all her older siblings before her.)

 

Instead of knowing how CM moved her students forward, I would want to know whether that destination matched my own. If it did, how do I take that goal backward to my kids' current skill set and move them forward from there along a path with some sort of definable goals along the way.

 

Thank you for your thoughts!  These are wise words.  It is actually rather easy for me to come up with goals for my children right now (as in for the next year or two).  I think that is exactly what has left me frustrated with writing programs.  I know where I need each child to go next, but I feel we are taking the scenic route instead of getting to the heart of the matter.  However, if you ask me what my children need to do for high school, I simply have no idea.  I'm just not there yet.  I will need to read more books on writing.

 

My thought on this thread was to discuss how Charlotte Mason could be so adamant about not teaching composition except in high school.  I'm wondering if she, too, was tutoring and nudging down the path each child without laying out a curriculum for her schools. 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

My thought on this thread was to discuss how Charlotte Mason could be so adamant about not teaching composition except in high school. I'm wondering if she, too, was tutoring and nudging down the path each child without laying out a curriculum for her schools.

 

It doesn't take a composition instruction book to discuss what you love about a certain piece and what makes it work. Discussion about how a composition is put together and how that basic framework exists in all good writing will take students a long way. (Hey, I called my writing book Treasured Conversations bc learning via discussion is how my kids learn!)

[lorisuewho]

It doesn't take a composition instruction book to discuss what you love about a certain piece and what makes it work. Discussion about how a composition is put together and how that basic framework exists in all good writing will take students a long way. (Hey, I called my writing book Treasured Conversations bc learning via discussion is how my kids learn!)

 

I love this post and I fully agree.  I actually purchased your book and read it when it first came out, but then I didn't use it as written.  I read it and it made me think, "I can do this!"  Your book was like a coaching session for me.

 

Now that I think on this more, I really believe that conversations and discussions were exactly how Charlotte Mason must have intended for children to learn composition.  Maybe her book could have been Treasured Narrations, since her prompts for narrations were not as simple as, "tell me back what you read," but grew in depth as the children aged.

 

[8filltheheart]

I love this post and I fully agree. I actually purchased your book and read it when it first came out, but then I didn't use it as written. I read it and it made me think, "I can do this!" Your book was like a coaching session for me..

 

That makes me so happy! That was my goal. Just keep reading and learning yourself. Believe that you can grow as teacher and adapt with your kids. Mentally master the skills they need to develop, find pieces to examine that incorporate those skills, talk to them about them, and ask them to replicate the concept in their own writing.

 

Mastering Writing Skills 101 :)

[lorisuewho]

That makes me so happy! That was my goal. Just keep reading and learning yourself. Believe that you can grow as teacher and adapt with your kids. Mentally master the skills they need to develop, find pieces to examine that incorporate those skills, talk to them about them, and ask them to replicate the concept in their own writing.

 

Mastering Writing Skills 101 :)

 

Thank you for this pep talk.  This is truly how I want to do it.  :001_smile:

[Mrs. A]

Thank you for this thread, OP. It's been helpful to me in thinking about this.

 

That makes me so happy! That was my goal. Just keep reading and learning yourself. Believe that you can grow as teacher and adapt with your kids. Mentally master the skills they need to develop, find pieces to examine that incorporate those skills, talk to them about them, and ask them to replicate the concept in their own writing.

 

Mastering Writing Skills 101 :)

 

I want to read and learn about what I want my kids to learn, but my problem is I'm not even sure what I should be reading in order to know about the topics we should cover. I want them to be competent writers who are able to articulate their thoughts clearly but I don't exactly know what skills need to be developed in order to get there! I do see amazing results just from reading and narrating regularly and from discussing rules of grammar and sentence structure a la Treasured Conversations, but I still feel like I don't exactly know how to get where I want to go. Any suggestions wrt what I can read in order to educate myself on all this?

[lorisuewho]

Great question.

[8filltheheart]

I'm trying to think of the books that do help the teacher teach.   Off the top of my head for upper elementary/middle school,  I would say Put That in Writing Level 1, Maxwell's Writing in English (free online), and the main ideas in The Lively Art of Writing.  For high school, Horner's Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition and Patterns in College Writing (I used this this past yr with my 8th and 11th graders.  We would read the essays and talk about what we saw as the strengths and weaknesses.)

[Homeschoolmom3]

I'm trying to think of the books that do help the teacher teach.   Off the top of my head for upper elementary/middle school,  I would say Put That in Writing Level 1, Maxwell's Writing in English (free online), and the main ideas in The Lively Art of Writing.  For high school, Horner's Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition and Patterns in College Writing (I used this this past yr with my 8th and 11th graders.  We would read the essays and talk about what we saw as the strengths and weaknesses.)

 

 

Another good one is On Writing Well (enjoyed this read last year!) and my son really enjoyed:  Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student for high school as well.

[lorisuewho]

I'm trying to think of the books that do help the teacher teach.   Off the top of my head for upper elementary/middle school,  I would say Put That in Writing Level 1, Maxwell's Writing in English (free online), and the main ideas in The Lively Art of Writing.  For high school, Horner's Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition and Patterns in College Writing (I used this this past yr with my 8th and 11th graders.  We would read the essays and talk about what we saw as the strengths and weaknesses.)

 

 

Another good one is On Writing Well (enjoyed this read last year!) and my son really enjoyed:  Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student for high school as well.

Thank you.  I appreciate your suggestions.

Edited July 11, 2016 by lorisuewho

[michaeljenn]

This has been a great thread!  I love the CM method, but have never been able to fully implement it in my homeschool.  The thought of it overwhelms me!!  When I try to implement CM methods, I feel like something is missing, or I am missing the mark.  I NEED something to tell me what to do!  I looked at ELTL and love what I saw, but for some reason, I am still a bit more drawn to CLE LA.  My kids enjoy CLA as well.   However, I feel bad because I feel like there is a "better" way...  CLE LA does include copywork each and every day.  It does drill the student, but they are truly learning from it.  In CLE 3rd grade it gave the student notes about a subject and taught how to use those notes to write a paragraph.  My son did great with it.  BUT... since he didn't take notes from a classic literature book, but from a simple paragraph in a LA program, I feel bad!! UGH...  I guess I am better at actually implementing a traditional LA program versus a CM one.  Now if I can just be ok with that! 

[KeriJ]

This has been a great thread! I love the CM method, but have never been able to fully implement it in my homeschool. The thought of it overwhelms me!! When I try to implement CM methods, I feel like something is missing, or I am missing the mark. I NEED something to tell me what to do! I looked at ELTL and love what I saw, but for some reason, I am still a bit more drawn to CLE LA. My kids enjoy CLA as well. However, I feel bad because I feel like there is a "better" way... CLE LA does include copywork each and every day. It does drill the student, but they are truly learning from it. In CLE 3rd grade it gave the student notes about a subject and taught how to use those notes to write a paragraph. My son did great with it. BUT... since he didn't take notes from a classic literature book, but from a simple paragraph in a LA program, I feel bad!! UGH... I guess I am better at actually implementing a traditional LA program versus a CM one. Now if I can just be ok with that!

I think you should be ok with it! CM is not the only way. Many students excel with a program like CLE.

[quietchapel]

I think you should be ok with it! CM is not the only way. Many students excel with a program like CLE.

I agree!