Math Question (R&S, CLE)

[3girls4me]

Hi ladies,

I know there have been numerous threads about CLE vs R&S math, but none that are really helping me make a decision. We have been using CLE for 2 years, mostly with success.  But my oldest, a rising 6th grader, just doesn't seem to be retaining well.  She needs something to really be seared into her mind and she needs drill.  She even said she needs all subjects to be like R&S grammar because of the oral drill and repetition.  But moving her to R&S in 6th grade seems like a waste since we plan to do pre-algebra (probably Derek Owens) the next year.  My other kids are 3rd and 1st, so moving them over would be ok, but I keep hearing R&S is behind.  We are using some Memoria Press products next year and they LOVE R&S math and really promote it. And I really value their choices.  So I'm confused about which one would better serve our needs.  Any thoughts on this?  If it's behind, why would MP use it?  I really like their philosophy on math and do want a traditional math program.  I'm basically just debating these 2.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Thank you!!!

[3girls4me]

Good points. Thank you.

[OneStepAtATime]

What is it that you think she may not be retaining?  Or maybe the better question is what is happening right now that indicates to you she is not retaining?  Is there something specific?  Why did you switch to CLE in the first place?  Were there issues with a previous program?  There is a ton of review in CLE.  Depending on what she is not retaining or why you think she is not retaining may affect my answer on other options.  CLE is not for everyone so switching may absolutely be your best option right now but before hopping curriculum I would recommend digging in and determining exactly what is happening...otherwise you might be wasting more time and more money.

[3girls4me]

What is it that you think she may not be retaining? Or maybe the better question is what is happening right now that indicates to you she is not retaining? Is there something specific? Why did you switch to CLE in the first place? Were there issues with a previous program? There is a ton of review in CLE. Depending on what she is not retaining or why you think she is not retaining may affect my answer on other options. CLE is not for everyone so switching may absolutely be your best option right now but before hopping curriculum I would recommend digging in and determining exactly what is happening...otherwise you might be wasting more time and more money.

Thanks for responding. First of all, we came from Horizons math. Everything was going great using it for first and second grade, but about midway through our third-grade year, she hit the wall. It got entirely too hard for her. I felt like it was introducing so many algebraic and "older math" subjects too early for her. She needed more time to get solid in basic arithmetic.

As far as CLE, she says that they are just introducing new concepts so quickly that she feels like she doesn't get to master it first. Yes, there is a review, but she's constantly trying to go back and find the old light unit that explained it because she has forgotten how to do it. We are having some testing done right now to see if there is anything going on with her. She is a very bright child, but needs repeated, almost constant exposure to something over a long period of time for it to really sink in. And she can't move quickly through anything. I don't take switching math curriculum lightly because we know how important a solid grasp of math is and I don't want her further confused, but I want her to feel like she can master something before having 5 more topics thrown at her.

Maybe staying with CLE is fine but just slowing down and doing lots of extra review of each topic. I don't know. I have just read several articles and listened to Cheryl Lowe from MP talk about R&S math and it really has me wondering if it would be a better fit. Though as I mentioned, I feel like just one year of R&S may not do any good.

Thanks!!

Edited May 9, 2016 by Pdriskell

[2_girls_mommy]

My dd has done R&S from K-8th.  I do feel in the early years it might be a bit "behind." I mean it's traditional arithmetic.  There is no kindergarten, so it doesn't even start one plus one until first grade.  That is a bit behind other programs.  But it is solid.  It picks up, and it teaches well. I love that MP uses R&S math.  To me, you can't get more classical than R&S for memorization (written into the teacher's plans,) mastery based, taught incrementally, uses traditional methods instead of the new core stuff, etc. I was already using R&S for math back when I decided on WTM for our main guideline in back in first grade with my odd.  Everything I read about the classical method lined up with what R&S was doing, so I stuck with it.  I was so glad when I discovered MP and saw they agreed with me.

[OneStepAtATime]

Ah, I see.  Given your latest post, I am wondering if what you mentioned might actually help more than switching at this point.  Maybe try working with her for a few days on each new concept, in lots of depth, perhaps incorporating you tube videos and/or Khan Academy but still review the old concepts daily.  You could select 10 review problems for each day but work heavily on new concepts until they are mastered.  It would mean redoing how CLE handles the pacing, though, so lots more work for you.  Doable.  I have done something similar and for similar reasons.  Still a lot of work, though.

 

 

[Ellie]

Hi ladies,

I know there have been numerous threads about CLE vs R&S math, but none that are really helping me make a decision. We have been using CLE for 2 years, mostly with success.  But my oldest, a rising 6th grader, just doesn't seem to be retaining well.  She needs something to really be seared into her mind and she needs drill.  She even said she needs all subjects to be like R&S grammar because of the oral drill and repetition.  But moving her to R&S in 6th grade seems like a waste since we plan to do pre-algebra (probably Derek Owens) the next year.  My other kids are 3rd and 1st, so moving them over would be ok, but I keep hearing R&S is behind.  We are using some Memoria Press products next year and they LOVE R&S math and really promote it. And I really value their choices.  So I'm confused about which one would better serve our needs.  Any thoughts on this?  If it's behind, why would MP use it?  I really like their philosophy on math and do want a traditional math program.  I'm basically just debating these 2.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Thank you!!!

 

Children who have done R&S math through the 7th or 8th grade book have no problems moving right into algebra, so even though the book title doesn't say "pre-algebra," it's in there.

 

I'm pretty sure you haven't heard people *here* say that R&S is "behind." It most certainly is not. :001_smile:

[3girls4me]

Children who have done R&S math through the 7th or 8th grade book have no problems moving right into algebra, so even though the book title doesn't say "pre-algebra," it's in there.

 

I'm pretty sure you haven't heard people *here* say that R&S is "behind." It most certainly is not. :001_smile:

Thanks Ellie! I think it actually was posts on here that indicated people thought R&S was a bit behind. (Some probably old posts) Certainly not the MP board :)

Good to know about their 7th and 8th levels having the pre-algebra in there......

[3girls4me]

Ah, I see. Given your latest post, I am wondering if what you mentioned might actually help more than switching at this point. Maybe try working with her for a few days on each new concept, in lots of depth, perhaps incorporating you tube videos and/or Khan Academy but still review the old concepts daily. You could select 10 review problems for each day but work heavily on new concepts until they are mastered. It would mean redoing how CLE handles the pacing, though, so lots more work for you. Doable. I have done something similar and for similar reasons. Still a lot of work, though.

Whew! That makes me tired thinking about this! But worth it if that's what needs to be done! Thanks.

[3girls4me]

My dd has done R&S from K-8th. I do feel in the early years it might be a bit "behind." I mean it's traditional arithmetic. There is no kindergarten, so it doesn't even start one plus one until first grade. That is a bit behind other programs. But it is solid. It picks up, and it teaches well. I love that MP uses R&S math. To me, you can't get more classical than R&S for memorization (written into the teacher's plans,) mastery based, taught incrementally, uses traditional methods instead of the new core stuff, etc. I was already using R&S for math back when I decided on WTM for our main guideline in back in first grade with my odd. Everything I read about the classical method lined up with what R&S was doing, so I stuck with it. I was so glad when I discovered MP and saw they agreed with me.

Thanks for this info!

[2_girls_mommy]

My dd went straight into Algebra after 8.  The last few chapters of 8 are labeled PreAlgebra, if it matters what they are called. :)

 

 

[Storygirl]

CLE does such a good job of continuous review, that I don't know if you will find something that does it better (I haven't used R&S, so can't compare). If you feel she needs the continuous review, I might be inclined to add to CLE instead of switching to something different. Do you sit with her as she goes over the new material each day? If she is reading it on her own, that could be part of the problem. Having someone teach the new material to her, so that she hears it explained aloud AND reads it to herself AND perhaps does an additional activity (using a manipulative, or watching a lesson online, or working some additional problems on a white board) might help.

 

Here are a couple of other ideas:

* Briefly review the previous day's lesson before starting today's lesson

 

* Keep a composition book where you write down key concepts, so that she knows where to find them.

 

* Or make a copy of the new lessons that she doesn't seem to get right away, or that you think she might forget, and put it in a 3-ring binder, so that she can find it easily without sorting through old light units. You'd only copy that first page of explanation, so it wouldn't require much copying.

 

* Use the laminated CLE math charts. They include a ton of useful information and are inexpensive.

 

* If she struggles with remembering multi-step problems, list out the steps on a notecard and let her refer to it until she has it mastered.

 

One of my kids has a math LD. We used CLE until he enrolled in school this past year. After a year of school, I've come to appreciate CLE so much more, because it has the kind of constant review that he requires. One of his issues is that he just forgets things he does not practice, even if they are important and foundational (how to count money, for example, or how to divide a circle into three). If I were ever to go back to homeschooling, I would be inclined to choose CLE for him again, but to supplement it with constant review of new concepts and basic math. He just develops holes that have to constantly be retaught and reviewed.

 

I think whatever program you choose, you may need to supplement. If you switch to a mastery program, you will need to add in more constant review. If you choose a spiral program, you may need to beef up the teaching of concepts. You also may find that you don't need to keep all of your children in the same math program. If your younger children are fine with CLE, I'd just stick with that for them. Don't change what already works.

[3girls4me]

CLE does such a good job of continuous review, that I don't know if you will find something that does it better (I haven't used R&S, so can't compare). If you feel she needs the continuous review, I might be inclined to add to CLE instead of switching to something different. Do you sit with her as she goes over the new material each day? If she is reading it on her own, that could be part of the problem. Having someone teach the new material to her, so that she hears it explained aloud AND reads it to herself AND perhaps does an additional activity (using a manipulative, or watching a lesson online, or working some additional problems on a white board) might help.

 

Here are a couple of other ideas:

* Briefly review the previous day's lesson before starting today's lesson

 

* Keep a composition book where you write down key concepts, so that she knows where to find them.

 

* Or make a copy of the new lessons that she doesn't seem to get right away, or that you think she might forget, and put it in a 3-ring binder, so that she can find it easily without sorting through old light units. You'd only copy that first page of explanation, so it wouldn't require much copying.

 

* Use the laminated CLE math charts. They include a ton of useful information and are inexpensive.

 

* If she struggles with remembering multi-step problems, list out the steps on a notecard and let her refer to it until she has it mastered.

 

One of my kids has a math LD. We used CLE until he enrolled in school this past year. After a year of school, I've come to appreciate CLE so much more, because it has the kind of constant review that he requires. One of his issues is that he just forgets things he does not practice, even if they are important and foundational (how to count money, for example, or how to divide a circle into three). If I were ever to go back to homeschooling, I would be inclined to choose CLE for him again, but to supplement it with constant review of new concepts and basic math. He just develops holes that have to constantly be retaught and reviewed.

 

I think whatever program you choose, you may need to supplement. If you switch to a mastery program, you will need to add in more constant review. If you choose a spiral program, you may need to beef up the teaching of concepts. You also may find that you don't need to keep all of your children in the same math program. If your younger children are fine with CLE, I'd just stick with that for them. Don't change what already works.

 

 

Wow!  Thanks so much for writing all of this out.  Very helpful!

Edited May 9, 2016 by Pdriskell

[Lang Syne Boardie]

R&S also has consistent review. You need to be on your toes and never just hand R&S to the student; half the lesson and review are in the teacher's notes and oral drill for the day.

 

One of my sons went directly from R&S 7 to Algebra, skipping 8th grade and pre-Algebra, and did fine with that. He made excellent SAT scores in math, and enjoyed high school math through calculus.

[OneStepAtATime]

CLE does such a good job of continuous review, that I don't know if you will find something that does it better (I haven't used R&S, so can't compare). If you feel she needs the continuous review, I might be inclined to add to CLE instead of switching to something different. Do you sit with her as she goes over the new material each day? If she is reading it on her own, that could be part of the problem. Having someone teach the new material to her, so that she hears it explained aloud AND reads it to herself AND perhaps does an additional activity (using a manipulative, or watching a lesson online, or working some additional problems on a white board) might help.

 

Here are a couple of other ideas:

* Briefly review the previous day's lesson before starting today's lesson

 

* Keep a composition book where you write down key concepts, so that she knows where to find them.

 

* Or make a copy of the new lessons that she doesn't seem to get right away, or that you think she might forget, and put it in a 3-ring binder, so that she can find it easily without sorting through old light units. You'd only copy that first page of explanation, so it wouldn't require much copying.

 

* Use the laminated CLE math charts. They include a ton of useful information and are inexpensive.

 

* If she struggles with remembering multi-step problems, list out the steps on a notecard and let her refer to it until she has it mastered.

 

One of my kids has a math LD. We used CLE until he enrolled in school this past year. After a year of school, I've come to appreciate CLE so much more, because it has the kind of constant review that he requires. One of his issues is that he just forgets things he does not practice, even if they are important and foundational (how to count money, for example, or how to divide a circle into three). If I were ever to go back to homeschooling, I would be inclined to choose CLE for him again, but to supplement it with constant review of new concepts and basic math. He just develops holes that have to constantly be retaught and reviewed.

 

I think whatever program you choose, you may need to supplement. If you switch to a mastery program, you will need to add in more constant review. If you choose a spiral program, you may need to beef up the teaching of concepts. You also may find that you don't need to keep all of your children in the same math program. If your younger children are fine with CLE, I'd just stick with that for them. Don't change what already works.

 

This is an awesome response.

 

I am inspired to share a bit more of what we have done here.

 

1.  For many of the lessons I photocopy the new information and tape the info onto a sheet of paper.  I keep the pages in clear plastic sleeves that are filed in a notebook.  I also sometimes print out explanations from other sources if they seem easier to skim through/glance at.  The notebook has dividers by topic.  DD can mark/highlight with dry erase marker but can erase those markings afterward.  This makes it much easier to look up old information and to go through and review.

 

2.  DD keeps her protractor, her CLE math reference charts, her ruler, etc inside the same notebook along with her current light unit.

 

3.  I have the TMs on a nearby shelf so we can both easily refer back to older lessons if we didn't photocopy that particular page and find we need to refer to it later.

 

4.  I look ahead to the next lesson and if I know it is an area she struggles we do the lesson together on the dry erase board.  We may do several problems (TM helps with this) together.  We also sometimes do a lesson with CTC math or Khan Academy before I have her tackle the new material in the Light Unit.  

 

5.  The day after the new material has been introduced we do another couple of problems together to make sure she is still remembering the process, then we do the next set of new material together and she continues the rest of the lesson on her own in the light unit.

 

6.  I usually work near her so if she runs into trouble I am there to help.

 

7.  I check all of her math problems right away so if there are issues we can address them immediately.

 

8.  If the algorithm used in CLE is confusing to her I sometimes seek another option.  For instance, long multiplication was always confusing to DD.  Lattice method, which seemed incredibly confusing to me, actually works much better for DD for multiplication.  Also, partial quotient division works better for her than long division.  You tube is great for looking at other ways to approach math.  I do have to help her overpractice any new algorithm before it has a prayer of sticking but she can usually do the review problems just fine on her own if we have done the extra practice problems.

 

Not sure any of that helped but there you go...

 

Whatever you end up doing, I'm sending you and your child lots of good vibes and best wishes.  :)

Edited May 10, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[Cynful]

We couldn't stay on CLE Math for my oldest son as it moved to fast for him also and he couldn't cement anything in his brain.  Now he does have LD's in math, just so you know.  However, R&S has been perfect for him and I wish we had stuck with it years ago when we gave it a try (I put him in too advanced a level though so it was bound to fail).  We went back to it after CLE, Saxon and MUS.  I've found it very important to do the oral drill from the teacher guide and we do alot of the work on the white board to keep it from taking so long or too much writing (he has dysgraphia too).  I really couldn't be more pleased.  Good luck.

[3girls4me]

This is an awesome response.

 

I am inspired to share a bit more of what we have done here.

 

1. For many of the lessons I photocopy the new information and tape the info onto a sheet of paper. I keep the pages in clear plastic sleeves that are filed in a notebook. I also sometimes print out explanations from other sources if they seem easier to skim through/glance at. The notebook has dividers by topic. DD can mark/highlight with dry erase marker but can erase those markings afterward. This makes it much easier to look up old information and to go through and review.

 

2. DD keeps her protractor, her CLE math reference charts, her ruler, etc inside the same notebook along with her current light unit.

 

3. I have the TMs on a nearby shelf so we can both easily refer back to older lessons if we didn't photocopy that particular page and find we need to refer to it later.

 

4. I look ahead to the next lesson and if I know it is an area she struggles we do the lesson together on the dry erase board. We may do several problems (TM helps with this) together. We also sometimes do a lesson with CTC math or Khan Academy before I have her tackle the new material in the Light Unit.

 

5. The day after the new material has been introduced we do another couple of problems together to make sure she is still remembering the process, then we do the next set of new material together and she continues the rest of the lesson on her own in the light unit.

 

6. I usually work near her so if she runs into trouble I am there to help.

 

7. I check all of her math problems right away so if there are issues we can address them immediately.

 

8. If the algorithm used in CLE is confusing to her I sometimes seek another option. For instance, long multiplication was always confusing to DD. Lattice method, which seemed incredibly confusing to me, actually works much better for DD for multiplication. Also, partial quotient division works better for her than long division. You tube is great for looking at other ways to approach math. I do have to help her overpractice any new algorithm before it has a prayer of sticking but she can usually do the review problems just fine on her own if we have done the extra practice problems.

 

Not sure any of that helped but there you go...

 

Whatever you end up doing, I'm sending you and your child lots of good vibes and best wishes. :)

You guys are great! If we stick with CLE, I have so many new ideas to help things stick!

This may be a waste of money, but R&S is fairly cheap, but we are ahead in CLE by about a semester, so she is already a few light units into grade 6 (she's in 5th now) and we work 3 days a week in the summer with math to keep things fresh. So I may go ahead and try R&S for a month or two and see how we like it. If it's a bust, we are ahead anyway and I'm sure extra drill won't hurt anything anyway. If we don't like it, I'll implement many of these good ideas on this thread. (Which would actually be helpful regardless of curriculum)

Again - thanks so much for all the help!

[3girls4me]

We couldn't stay on CLE Math for my oldest son as it moved to fast for him also and he couldn't cement anything in his brain. Now he does have LD's in math, just so you know. However, R&S has been perfect for him and I wish we had stuck with it years ago when we gave it a try (I put him in too advanced a level though so it was bound to fail). We went back to it after CLE, Saxon and MUS. I've found it very important to do the oral drill from the teacher guide and we do alot of the work on the white board to keep it from taking so long or too much writing (he has dysgraphia too). I really couldn't be more pleased. Good luck.

Thanks. It definitely seems to move too quickly for her. We finished up some testing today with a psychologist and while I think the findings will be encouraging, he did mention that she has a hard time handling a lot of information in a short period of time. I'll be eager to hear their full report in a couple of weeks.

[OneStepAtATime]

You guys are great! If we stick with CLE, I have so many new ideas to help things stick!

This may be a waste of money, but R&S is fairly cheap, but we are ahead in CLE by about a semester, so she is already a few light units into grade 6 (she's in 5th now) and we work 3 days a week in the summer with math to keep things fresh. So I may go ahead and try R&S for a month or two and see how we like it. If it's a bust, we are ahead anyway and I'm sure extra drill won't hurt anything anyway. If we don't like it, I'll implement many of these good ideas on this thread. (Which would actually be helpful regardless of curriculum)

Again - thanks so much for all the help!

Sounds like a great plan.  Good luck!  If you are so inclined would you be willing to give an update later on?

[3girls4me]

Sounds like a great plan. Good luck! If you are so inclined would you be willing to give an update later on?

Certainly! Hopefully I won't forget :)

[Ellie]

Thanks Ellie! I think it actually was posts on here that indicated people thought R&S was a bit behind. (Some probably old posts) Certainly not the MP board :)

Good to know about their 7th and 8th levels having the pre-algebra in there......

 

It could be. I never pay attention to discussions about any product being "behind" or "ahead," as I've heard both comments about nearly every product that has ever been discussed, lol.

 

Rod and Staff does a wonderful job of teaching basic arithmetic in the first three years, without introducing some concepts that more "modern" publishers do. From about fourth grade up, though, R&S's scope and sequence is comparable to other publishers', except that children have a wonderfully strong basis of arithmetic, which is the foundation for higher maths.

[3girls4me]

It could be. I never pay attention to discussions about any product being "behind" or "ahead," as I've heard both comments about nearly every product that has ever been discussed, lol.

 

Rod and Staff does a wonderful job of teaching basic arithmetic in the first three years, without introducing some concepts that more "modern" publishers do. From about fourth grade up, though, R&S's scope and sequence is comparable to other publishers', except that children have a wonderfully strong basis of arithmetic, which is the foundation for higher maths.

Thanks Ellie!

Did your students go straight into algebra from R&S or a different path?

[Ellie]

Thanks Ellie!

Did your students go straight into algebra from R&S or a different path?

 

alas, we finished homeschooling before R&S had revised all of its math texts, and so we did not use them. I used some of the grade levels in a little one-room school where I taught, but the math series wasn't finished then, either.

 

If I were hsing again, my plan would be to use R&S until my dc tested into Saxon, although if we loved R&S we might go through at least the 6th grade book before I gave them the Saxon placement test.

[3girls4me]

Well......I'm back to say that we got my daughters standardized testing results today. I try to not read too much into these or let them sway me in decisions, but she got an overall score in the 90th percentile for math. Maybe CLE is working after all. I still feel like I want to try R&S. But perhaps she is retaining far more than I thought.......

[jer2911mom]

I can't remember, but have you tried BJU math?  Since it is mastery and conceptual, it would give her more time to sit with the concepts before moving on.  You could add the reviews book for more continuous review, although it does provide daily review, chapter reviews, and cumulative reviews.

 

Hope this helps,

Kathy

[3girls4me]

I can't remember, but have you tried BJU math? Since it is mastery and conceptual, it would give her more time to sit with the concepts before moving on. You could add the reviews book for more continuous review, although it does provide daily review, chapter reviews, and cumulative reviews.

 

Hope this helps,

Kathy

We haven't tried bju. I tried their reading program once and didn't care for it. Maybe the math would be different.

I got the Rod and staff math in the mail yesterday so we are going to give it a go for a few weeks and see what we think. :)

[daybreaking]

We haven't tried bju. I tried their reading program once and didn't care for it. Maybe the math would be different.

I got the Rod and staff math in the mail yesterday so we are going to give it a go for a few weeks and see what we think. :)

 

I hope you'll enjoy R&S Math. From someone who has used their math curriculum beginning with grade 1 through just now finishing up grade 8, I cannot say enough good about it!  I absolutely love the foundation my son has received and my daughter is currently receiving.  If I had the time, I could write paragraphs about the wonderful aspects of R&S Math.   :001_smile:

[3girls4me]

I hope you'll enjoy R&S Math. From someone who has used their math curriculum beginning with grade 1 through just now finishing up grade 8, I cannot say enough good about it! I absolutely love the foundation my son has received and my daughter is currently receiving. If I had the time, I could write paragraphs about the wonderful aspects of R&S Math. :001_smile:

So encouraging. Even after just a few days using it, I'm so excited. I suppose it's normal to have to run through several options before finding the right fit. We are entering our 6th year homeschooling. We've tried horizons and CLE. (We sampled a few others but never used them. So I guess stopping at 3 isn't so bad ;)

But, we just started. I'm sure it could change and we could go back to CLE but so far, this is great! I love the teachers guide SO MUCH MORE than CLE's.

Thanks to all who encouraged me to give this a try!