Should we test dd9 for giftedness?

[Mama Anna]

I bet there's a thread on this, but I can't figure out how to find it so I decided to just start another one.  TIA for the patience of those of you who have answered this before.

 

We have three dds and are hsing all of them.  Dd12 is pretty obviously gifted and accelerated (especially in LA), working one or more years ahead of level in everything and scoring in the 99th percentile on her grade-level ITBS.  How gifted?  I dunno.  There aren't many gifted programs in our area, so specialized testing for the sake of qualifying for them isn't really a goal.  We seem to be (more or less) keeping her happy and challenged and so I'm pretty content about her lot.  (I wasn't so sanguine about her when she took her first ITBS three years ago.  This could be important in the discussion that follows.)  We'll be moving to Ohio this summer where there are more gifted options, but I think it's likely that her required standardized test scores will probably fulfill the qualification requirements since they've been consistently so high.

 

Dd9 just took her first ITBS and scored in the 95th percentile, despite falling apart emotionally during the math section and scoring much lower than she otherwise would have done.  (I hadn't realized it, but it was her first experience with timed math computation.  Period.)  Dd9 is much more quirky than Dd12.  Whereas Dd12 fits the "conventional" gifted stereotype (large vocabulary, intellectual curiosity, incredibly active imagination, slightly socially delayed, struggles finding age-mates who understand her, etc.), Dd9 doesn't.  Dd9 has been diagnosed with a slight proprioceptive disorder, which means that she's constantly seeking physical/sensory input.  Her attention span depends entirely on what she's focused (or not focused) on.

 

• She's always loved jigsaw puzzles.  Packing things and fitting them into space are second nature to her.
• She loves to use her hands.  Despite difficulty with large motor skills, her fine motor skills (threading a needle, cutting neatly, etc.) have always been advanced.  (This is odd for someone with a proprioceptive disorder, as far as I understand.)
• She's driven to do art, especially 3D.  (At a recent hs curriculum fair, I bought her some "Thinking Putty."  Monday's grammar lesson turned out a pretty nice turtle.  Much of this morning's handwriting/copywork time was spent prepping a sculpture of Minas Tirith.  Yesterday's science lesson (magnets) turned into a ballet dancer in pointe shoes made out of a pair of pseudo-chopsticks, a toothpick and a couple of beaded wire clasps.  You get the idea.)
• When she does art, she sometimes comes up with things that not only could I not execute (and I'm moderately artistic, if not highly trained), but things that I would never have dreamed up in a million years.
• Her vocabulary is pretty large for her age, though not incredibly so.  Her LA scores on the ITBS were pretty near the ceiling.  She's not a lightning-fast reader, but she often chooses to read above her grade level.  She's most of the way through the LOTR books right now.
• She's working at grade level in pretty much all her subjects; reading is somewhat above.
• She's not fond of Math, especially the "showing your work" part.  When I sit with her to help her focus and hear her verbally working through problems, I realize that her approach is not conventional; this may be one reason why she skips showing her work.  She's not particularly fond of math, though I've always wondered if this could be due to the drudgery of learning math facts in arithmetic or because her older sister influenced her against it.  

 

To me Dd9 seems gifted, but not because of her test scores.  She's (generally, when she can keep her mind on it) a willing worker who doesn't mind school so much.  However, her level of 3D creativity is astonishing to me and her capacity for it seems inexhaustible. 

 

Questions:  Would she be considered gifted or am I just trying to rationalize something based on a desire to have each of my children be "special?"  Should we have her tested for giftedness?  Would it be worth it to be certain of something that we already suspect?  

 

I can see several pros and cons.

 

Pros: If we wish to get her into some kind of gifted program in Ohio, we would have test scores (other than the yearly tests which she might do better or worse on) to prove her eligibility.  Another thing; she knows her older sister is gifted.  I don't know exactly how this works with her self-concept but she's shown some signs of assuming that she's just not as good as her sister because she doesn't have the same strengths.  Testing might give her concrete proof of her own strengths. 

 

Cons: It'll cost a lot and we're not rolling in dough.  We've also got to find a place (in a new state) that would work well for testing.

 

I've wrestled with this for a few days and haven't found much help on the internet.  There are many, many years of experience in these issues between all of you.  Will you please weigh in with opinions/advice/experience?

 

Thanks for reading this far!

Mama Anna

[chiguirre]

Unless you need to qualify for a specific program, I'd shelve the testing for a couple of years. MUS follows a nonstandard scope and sequence and it won't even out until you're done with zeta. I wouldn't dump it or spend a bunch of time on test prep unless you have a fabulous program you need to qualify for.

 

The Stanford Achievement Test is untimed. Trinqueta found it stressful when she was 9 so it might not solve your problem but it might help. For what it's worth, T took the SAT (the college entrance one, not Stanford) to qualify for Duke TIP this year and didn't stress out. We prepped a bit for the math, she got the score she needed for the camp at Rice U. Done. I thought it would be a much bigger deal than it turned out to be based on the Stanford stress fest 3 years ago.

 

ETA: You probably won't want to do Duke TIP. Johns Hopkins CTY has more programs in the midatlantic states.

Edited May 4, 2016 by chiguirre

[Arcadia]

Another thing; she knows her older sister is gifted. I don't know exactly how this works with her self-concept but she's shown some signs of assuming that she's just not as good as her sister because she doesn't have the same strengths. Testing might give her concrete proof of her own strengths.

How does she know her sister is gifted? Has her sister been tested?

 

Also creativity is not measured in a typical IQ test. There is a separate test for that.(ETA: Torrance Test)

 

My kids are a year apart. When we decided to have our younger tested for learning difficulties, we have our older one tested as well so that our younger one don't feel single out. We choose not to tell them their scores. It happen that our older scores are higher which would just make matter worse if younger knew. If it was the other way round and older had a lower score, younger might still have assumed older had a bad test day.

 

So if you and your spouse decide to go ahead with IQ testing, you have to decide whether you are going to let her see the scores.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Arcadia

[texasmama]

I've never tested my gifted kid because there is no reason. I just teach him at his level. He has been uninterested in special programs.

 

My kid with special needs has been tested many times, but he has not seen his scores.

 

I dealt with sibling feelings about differences as they came up. They seem mostly past that stage now.

 

Each of my kids has an interest in which he/she excels. Academics are not weighted more heavily than sports or art or kindness or other areas in our family. This has taken time to identify and grow each child's strengths. Fortunately, we have time. :)

Edited May 5, 2016 by texasmama

[TerriM]

I find that sibling jealousy is a tough thing.  If she's trying to prove that she's better or as good as her sister, but even if she is, if she's not a good test taker, you risk her being disappointed and upset.   I'm not sure how that would affect the decision to test or not, but for certain, I'd try to nip it in the bud if it's possible (which I realize is really tough).  I question though whether testing her will make her feel better about herself.  

[TerriM]

PS:  Test taking skills improve a lot between age 9 and 12 for some kids, so it's comparing apples to oranges if she thinks a 9yo test is comparable to her sister's test at 12.  I realize the percentiles shouldn't change, but some kids test *really* well at early ages and some don't.  I've got one kid I taught to double check his work as early as first grade  and another that is super careless and will be for another 3-4 years.  Both are smart, but one's going to test 20% higher than the other because of test taking skills.  The real difference between them could be 5% or even none at all.

[sweetpea3829]

I have not had my "gifted" child tested, outside of the ed evals he had in order to qualify for speech when he was 4.  I've been tempted to...just to see how high he would test but...it is unnecessary at this point, as we are not hedging for any gifted programs, etc.  Plus...while he is "gifted", I know he is not profoundly gifted. 

 

That said...we do have sibling issues here, as DS has an older sister, 11 months his senior, and she has moderate learning disabilities.  Her recent IQ score came back in the low 60s.  Pretty sure it was an anomaly as her last IQ scores were in the high 80s but still.  Her LDs are prevalent and significant enough that it is impossible for her siblings to not notice.  

 

It has been difficult maintaining her self-esteem, particularly because there hasn't been anything she excels at...or even does really well at.  And it has been difficult keeping DS humble and not overly obnoxiously braggy about his abilities.  But I feel like we are in a good place now, after years of talking about different abilities and strengths and weaknesses.  

 

Still I know she believes in her heart that she's "not as good as" DS.  And that bothers me.  But we can only work with the cards we've been dealt.  

[Mama Anna]

Thanks to all of you for giving me your two cents.

 

I'm not gong to comment on everything, because I'm on my phone, but your post stood out to me because I see a lot of parallels to my kids. I just wanted to address this part and say in our case, testing didn't change our dc's perceptions of herself in relation to her sibling. The testing seems to be irrelevant and meaningless to her (we didn't test her to ascertain giftedness, but to identify learning issues. The degree of giftedness was a surprise). YMMV for your own child, but I wouldn't include that as a reason on my own list.

Thanks for this perspective.  I'd assumed it would help her, but I can see how it might not.  We humans often discount the importance of things that come easily to us compared to things that are difficult for us but easier for others.  (As if I really want her to base her worth on her abilities, anyway - not!)

 

Unless you need to qualify for a specific program, I'd shelve the testing for a couple of years. MUS follows a nonstandard scope and sequence and it won't even out until you're done with zeta. I wouldn't dump it or spend a bunch of time on test prep unless you have a fabulous program you need to qualify for.

 

The Stanford Achievement Test is untimed. Trinqueta found it stressful when she was 9 so it might not solve your problem but it might help. 

I know that MUS has a different scope and sequence.  I'd heard that it pretty much evens out by the end of Delta, but I warned both dds that they'd see stuff they weren't familiar with on their tests.  Dd9's problem was simply that she freaked out about the time limit (Bad Mama for not practicing that!!) and spent 1/4-1/3 of the testing period in tears with her hands over her face; not conducive to getting many questions answered, much less answered correctly.  Like I said, I know that her score doesn't truly reflect her skill level on that test in particular.

 

Thank you for the suggestion of the Stanford, though!

 

 

How does she know her sister is gifted? Has her sister been tested?

Also creativity is not measured in a typical IQ test. There is a separate test for that.(ETA: Torrance Test)

Dd9 has heard us discuss possible programs for "gifted" kids that might interest Dd12 - I think that's the main way that she's heard.  Because they're three years apart, each of the younger ones are familiar with the idea that the older one(s) will know things that they don't, and it's not something that comes up all the time.

 

We didn't show Dd12 her scores when she took the ITBS in 4th grade (three years ago), just told her that she did well.  She specifically requested to see her scores this time, though, so we showed each dd her score separately, focusing on her strengths, the tests that she had been concerned about, and interpreting her lower scores to help her get an idea of how they came about.  We had gone into the testing situation with the explanation of, "This will give us an idea of where each of you are compared to your ps grade-level peers as well as give you a chance to get used to testing, since it's likely to happen every year (and actually mean something) once we move.  We'll find out any areas of weakness that we need to shore up."  This meant that I don't think they were seeing it as a contest between each other (any more than anything is a contest between siblings) and I remember specifically shifting dd12's conversation away when I heard her asking dd9 how she scored on the test - I tried to defuse such rivalry.  Honest!  <sigh>

 

I'll research that test you mentioned so that I have an idea of where to go if we need to in the future.  Thank you!!

 

I have not had my "gifted" child tested, outside of the ed evals he had in order to qualify for speech when he was 4.  I've been tempted to...just to see how high he would test but...it is unnecessary at this point, as we are not hedging for any gifted programs, etc.  Plus...while he is "gifted", I know he is not profoundly gifted. 

...

 

Still I know she believes in her heart that she's "not as good as" DS.  And that bothers me.  But we can only work with the cards we've been dealt.  

Yes.  What you said about your "gifted" child - that about my oldest, too!  And the rest of the quote - I agree with that, too.

 

Thank you all for giving me a different perspective.  I've probably just been focusing on testing the same way I did when Dd12 took her first test three years ago.  It does sound like it would be best to wait for a more concrete reason to test than any I have thus far.  :)

 

(Just wait - I bet I go on another one of these in three years when dd6 takes her first standardized test . . . <sigh>  I hate being so predictable!)

 

Mama Anna

[Arcadia]

Your DD9 may like to participate in this creativity contest

 

http://www.centerforgifted.org/torrance.html

[jar7709]

Does *she* want to be tested?  We have put off evaluations for many of the reasons PPs listed (meeting child where they are at, not interested in special programs, etc) but now as they are getting older they are more observant about their differences.  DS especially is interested in knowing more about himself and his strengths/weaknesses, from someone outside Mom.  We decided to go ahead and have both kids evaluated since the younger is sure to be curious as well, so now they are both on wait lists for neuropsych evaluation. I am not sure if we will give the kids the full nitty-gritty results--we'll wait to see what they say to decide that--but no matter what we are respecting their desires to have more concrete information about themselves.

[Janeway]

If you asked me this a year ago, or ten years ago, I would have said no. I would have said teach her at her level and pace and that is where she is.

 

THEN..my son, who I thought was just not that bright, I tested him. I had him take the ITBS and COGAT. He had done the ITBS before, but not COGAT. He scored in the 70s percentile on the ITBS, which is not gifted. He always refused to do his work. I figured 70's was a stretch for him. Plus, he spent time in public school. I thought maybe he had learning disabilities too. I had posted about issues with him before. 

 

But on the COGAT, he was 99th percentile across the board! He was not learning at his level. Because he was academically behind due to not doing his work, ever, he was not at a level suited for him and he was getting further behind. After that, after spending a few more months fighting with him, I changed up everything we do, completely. So far, it is working. I am going to make a separate post about it at some point soon asking for advice. But, basically, for him, I had to sit with him and catch him up on the basic skills. We went through a year worth of math in 3 months. I skipped him up a level in the other subjects to where he literally skipped an entire grade level. Now he is working more at his level. I am really curious how the next year will go. I have had to completely revamp everything and am still working to find that spot for him. But I no longer assume he is just not that bright and needs more more more review and to go slower.

[Mama Anna]

Does *she* want to be tested?  We have put off evaluations for many of the reasons PPs listed (meeting child where they are at, not interested in special programs, etc) but now as they are getting older they are more observant about their differences.  DS especially is interested in knowing more about himself and his strengths/weaknesses, from someone outside Mom.  We decided to go ahead and have both kids evaluated since the younger is sure to be curious as well, so now they are both on wait lists for neuropsych evaluation. I am not sure if we will give the kids the full nitty-gritty results--we'll wait to see what they say to decide that--but no matter what we are respecting their desires to have more concrete information about themselves.

 

She hasn't actually requested testing - I don't think she realizes that it's an option.  This ITBS was her first-ever experience with any testing other than a spelling test or a lesson test in math.  She's not instinctively self-analytical, so I don't know that it would occur to her to try and figure herself out.  It might help me better accommodate her quirks with more patience, though.

[Mama Anna]

If you asked me this a year ago, or ten years ago, I would have said no. I would have said teach her at her level and pace and that is where she is.

 

THEN..my son, who I thought was just not that bright, I tested him. I had him take the ITBS and COGAT. He had done the ITBS before, but not COGAT. He scored in the 70s percentile on the ITBS, which is not gifted. He always refused to do his work. I figured 70's was a stretch for him. Plus, he spent time in public school. I thought maybe he had learning disabilities too. I had posted about issues with him before. 

 

But on the COGAT, he was 99th percentile across the board! He was not learning at his level. Because he was academically behind due to not doing his work, ever, he was not at a level suited for him and he was getting further behind.

 

Not learning at level due to lack of desire to cover basic skills (like math facts) - that's definitely one of my concerns about dd9.  Thanks for your story!  (Off to research the COGAT.)

 

Mama Anna

[mathwonk]

Just 2 cents.  I have been reading a book of popular anthropology written by a college friend of mine (and now a retired professor of anthropology) and learned that so called "IQ testing" was originally developed by Alfred Binet as a means of detecting areas of deficiency in students that could and should be corrected, i.e. to help them learn more effectively.  It was only later in the US that Lewis Terman at Stanford introduced the idea of using it to measure some kind of intrinsic intellectual ability, and nowadays "giftedness".  The idea of being labeled gifted or ungifted based on a test seems potentially harmful, not to say unscientific, but the possibility of learning how a student's education could be enhanced seems helpful.  I would take this into account myself.