Need help understanding test scores - revised post :)

[Jess4879]

We just got back results for my 12 year old. 

 

Edited: After speaking to the specialist, this is how she summarized:  DD has slow processing speed, low working & short term memory.  Her understanding of phonics is very high and she scored on par for math with same-age peers.  Her comprehension score was low, but after discussion we think that was due to her inability to rapidly recall information.  The questions where she scored poorly were questions asking her to read a passage and then fill in a blank.  She typically supplied a word that was very close (ie: arctic for cold).  It is an area we will be watchful of, however.  She said DD showed good thought process and sentence writing ability, but spelling was an issue. 

 

She suggested Fast ForWord and also doing phonics review.  Do we need something as indepth as Barton?  She also agreed that trying a pattern-based spelling might be helpful, so I was thinking Apples & Pears?? 

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Jess4879

[Tiramisu]

Specific Learning Disorder with Impairment in Reading is dyslexia, as I understand it, and the scores seem to indicate this.

 

I'm not an expert in dyslexia and don't have children with this difficulty, but that's the impression I get.

[Paige]

I think the low average and high average are in respect to the normal curve. Anything within 2 SDs will be considered average (normal/ok). When you get outside the normal curve, then you get superior or poor scores. Does that make sense? It's a statistical term that does not necessarily reflect the qualitative experience. Technically, a 17th percentile is within the normal curve, but to the person experiencing it, 17th percentile feels and in reality is not that great.

[Jess4879]

Specific Learning Disorder with Impairment in Reading is dyslexia, as I understand it, and the scores seem to indicate this.

 

I'm not an expert in dyslexia and don't have children with this difficulty, but that's the impression I get.

 

This is what I was thinking, also. I am not sure why it wasn't stated on the summary, but imagine she'll clarify when we meet.

[Jess4879]

I think the low average and high average are in respect to the normal curve. Anything within 2 SDs will be considered average (normal/ok). When you get outside the normal curve, then you get superior or poor scores. Does that make sense? It's a statistical term that does not necessarily reflect the qualitative experience. Technically, a 17th percentile is within the normal curve, but to the person experiencing it, 17th percentile feels and in reality is not that great.

 

So, am I right in thinking that even though 24th percentile is "average" that it is still an area of struggle?  

[Tiramisu]

So, am I right in thinking that even though 24th percentile is "average" that it is still an area of struggle?  

 

I would definitely think so, especially if that 24th percentile were lower than scores in other areas, signifying a relative weakness.

[Tiramisu]

This is what I was thinking, also. I am not sure why it wasn't stated on the summary, but imagine she'll clarify when we meet.

 

They just don't use the term dyslexia anymore which causes a lot of confusion for people.

 

It's been talked about on the boards that there is an effort being made to bring back the more well-known and well-understood terms like dyslexia.

[Paige]

So, am I right in thinking that even though 24th percentile is "average" that it is still an area of struggle?  

 

 

Yes, and it is normal to struggle! I think a lot of times people think struggling means a problem, but most kids don't breeze through everything. Excessive struggling is the problem, and that's hard to generalize.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Paige

[Jess4879]

The qualitative descriptions from average on down, go like this:

average

low average

borderline

extremely low

 

Deficits would be anything in the extremely low range.    Anything above borderline isn't really too much of a concern. 

 

Think of it as a bell curve with average at the area at the tippy top of the bell curve, which would be the 50th percentile.  Deviations on either side give you the low average and the high average, but are still mostly on the bell curve.  Borderline is where it all starts to fall off the curve, and extremely low is barely on the curve.  Does that make sense? Yes, thank you! :)

 

And I think you meant GIA (General Intellectual Ability) instead of GAI? It says GAI - General Ability Index.  Possibly same thing?

 

The WISC is an intelligence test, whereas the WJ is an achievement test.  It is important to understand the difference in what each of these tests for.  You want the WISC and the WJ to be similar in their results, which is appears yours are, more or less.  This is a good thing.

 

"Specific learning disorder with impairment in reading" basically means dyslexia, but keep in mind that dyslexia technically means "difficulty with reading" and not necessarily mixing up words/letters/symbols/etc.  It could mean that, but it doesn't have to mean that.  My son is dyslexic, but he writes his letters in the correct direction, correct order, words in correct order, etc.  He just struggles mightily to read due to his intellectual disability. 

[historically accurate]

 

 

The WISC is an intelligence test, whereas the WJ is an achievement test.  It is important to understand the difference in what each of these tests for.  You want the WISC and the WJ to be similar in their results, which is appears yours are, more or less.  This is a good thing.

 

 

What does it mean if they are not similar? I have a 14 yo who just took both those tests. The WISC came back 55 - 75th percentiles, but writing on WJ was really low (I don't have the paper in front of me, but it was equivalent to a 4th grade level). 

[Tiramisu]

What does it mean if they are not similar? I have a 14 yo who just took both those tests. The WISC came back 55 - 75th percentiles, but writing on WJ was really low (I don't have the paper in front of me, but it was equivalent to a 4th grade level). 

 

Could it be a motor issue?

[ehumenyik]

My ds has dyslexia. We have used reading horizon.com which is very much like TT. Might be worth looking into for you.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'll jump in a little here.  The average, low, blah blah, labels are more important in the school system, because that's how they shaft you and say they don't care.  What *they* care about is not the same as what *we* care about.  They care if the scores are SO objectively low (below the cut-off) or have SO much discrepancy that they are forced to intervene.  So yes, ignore the "average" and whatnot labels and actually analyze the data.  Besides percentiles, you should have a standard score for every single test you did.  A standard score uses 100 as the average and typically something like 10 or 15 (it will say for each test) for 1 standard deviation.  That let's you compare your standard score on something showing ability to the standard score on something showing achievement so you can say there's a discrepancy.  Alternately, you can use percentiles, but sometimes a large percentage of the percentiles (that doesn't make sense, rather a large chunk of the people) will be clustered in the middle, making it so that something like 30th percentile actually CAN be a pretty normal, reasonable score.  You don't know till you look at what the scaled score was and what the standard deviations are for the test.  For the school (and just in general), 1SD is noteworth, 1.5 is significant, and 2SD is HUGE.  

 

So on the IQ subtests, you've got some huge spreads.  Say we ignore the working memory and processing speed, because they usually get tossed when calculating the GAI anyway.  Did she give you a GAI and I missed it?  You've got 49%ile spread between your verbal and fluid reasoning.  Is the WISC V new?  I'm googling it and finding handouts.  http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.tpaonline.org/resource/resmgr/Session132WISCVHandout.pdf

I think my dc were both tested with WISC 4, so honestly I just haven't dug in on the FRI vs. verbal discrepancy.  I'm sure 49% is a significant discrepancy.  Did she do VT at some point?  What are you attributing that to?  See I was told that vocab scores (and hence IQ scores honestly) will go down on a dyslexic over time.  So if you say that FRI score is closer to what you anticipated for her ability, then you wonder ok was the verbal score depressed because she's 12 and dyslexic?  Is she getting significant audio inputs?  Listening to audiobooks 2-3 hours a day?  Has she been taught to do speed ear-reading?  If she hasn't yet, it's clearly time.  Has she had an APD screening?  Has she had a SLP eval?  Did the psych run the CELF or CASL?

 

The "average" labels stuff they use are really misleading.  If something is low relative to ability and preventing her from progressing, then it doesn't matter that it's not OBJECTIVELY low.  You're definitely getting information here on things you need to work on.  Processing speed that is that low will sometimes bump when you do metronome work.  We've had a couple stories on the boards here of that.  Did they also run an ADHD screening?  The working memory you can improve.  The rapid naming you can work on.  Given that you're doing AAS and still testing poorly, you could look at Barton or hire a tutor.  You're probably also going to need work in comprehension strategies.  There are optional comprehension kits you can buy to go with Barton.  

 

Have you done the Barton pre-test?  Given how poorly she's testing, she *might* not pass the Barton pretest.  I would start there and see how you do.  The website will give you instructions on how to score it and how to interpret the scores.  Do that and report back.  Some of those other things (working memory, etc.) will be hit with LIPS if she ends up needing it, so that's why I'm saying start with the Barton pretest.   :)

Edited April 3, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[MistyMountain]

I would look scores for the patterns they show and the areas of weakness right now and target those areas. Like the vocab scores could be brought down by a multitude of reasons some if which could be explored further by the things OhE mentioned. You can do stuff to improve working memory which may bump other areas in itself. The combo of slow processing and working memory means that they work really hard at holding things in their head and sometimes they miss the big picture or things get missed. You can improve the working memory. I guess some people had success with metronome work which I have not tried but you can also practice things to get more automative in those tasks for things to improve functionality.

[geodob]

Hi Jess4879,

 

I would pick up on: 'Rapid Symbolic Naming - 2nd percentile (poor range)'.

 

Which uses a test of letter naming, and also number naming.

Their is also another optional test of Rapid Non-Symbolic Naming', and naming of objects.

 

But perhaps you really consider this score, as you look at a letter or a number?

How quickly, or rather how instantly you can link the letter/number symbol with its sound?

 

Then you might consider what it is like, if the speed of linking letter/number symbols with their sound?

Is scored at 2%.

How this would effect each of the different tests?

Which would explain the difference between her Phonological Awareness, and Phonological Memory tests.

 

Though it would be interesting to know if she also did the 'Rapid Non-Symbolic Naming' test?

As this would identify whether the 'difficulty' is limited to Symbol Naming, or extends to Object and Color Naming?

 

But importantly, recent research. Has shown that this can be improved with direct practice.

Which basically develops a stronger and more fluent connection. Between the Auditory Cortex, where we store sounds, and our Visual Cortex where we store visual images.

Where we actually have to build the connections between them.

[Jess4879]

Ok, I'll jump in a little here.  The average, low, blah blah, labels are more important in the school system, because that's how they shaft you and say they don't care.  What *they* care about is not the same as what *we* care about.  They care if the scores are SO objectively low (below the cut-off) or have SO much discrepancy that they are forced to intervene.  So yes, ignore the "average" and whatnot labels and actually analyze the data.  Besides percentiles, you should have a standard score for every single test you did.  A standard score uses 100 as the average and typically something like 10 or 15 (it will say for each test) for 1 standard deviation.  That let's you compare your standard score on something showing ability to the standard score on something showing achievement so you can say there's a discrepancy.  Alternately, you can use percentiles, but sometimes a large percentage of the percentiles (that doesn't make sense, rather a large chunk of the people) will be clustered in the middle, making it so that something like 30th percentile actually CAN be a pretty normal, reasonable score.  You don't know till you look at what the scaled score was and what the standard deviations are for the test.  For the school (and just in general), 1SD is noteworth, 1.5 is significant, and 2SD is HUGE.  

 

So on the IQ subtests, you've got some huge spreads.  Say we ignore the working memory and processing speed, because they usually get tossed when calculating the GAI anyway.  Did she give you a GAI and I missed it?  You've got 49%ile spread between your verbal and fluid reasoning.  Is the WISC V new?  I'm googling it and finding handouts.  http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.tpaonline.org/resource/resmgr/Session132WISCVHandout.pdf

I think my dc were both tested with WISC 4, so honestly I just haven't dug in on the FRI vs. verbal discrepancy.  I'm sure 49% is a significant discrepancy.  Did she do VT at some point?  What are you attributing that to?  See I was told that vocab scores (and hence IQ scores honestly) will go down on a dyslexic over time.  So if you say that FRI score is closer to what you anticipated for her ability, then you wonder ok was the verbal score depressed because she's 12 and dyslexic?  Is she getting significant audio inputs?  Listening to audiobooks 2-3 hours a day?  Has she been taught to do speed ear-reading?  If she hasn't yet, it's clearly time.  Has she had an APD screening?  Has she had a SLP eval?  Did the psych run the CELF or CASL?

 

The "average" labels stuff they use are really misleading.  If something is low relative to ability and preventing her from progressing, then it doesn't matter that it's not OBJECTIVELY low.  You're definitely getting information here on things you need to work on.  Processing speed that is that low will sometimes bump when you do metronome work.  We've had a couple stories on the boards here of that.  Did they also run an ADHD screening?  The working memory you can improve.  The rapid naming you can work on.  Given that you're doing AAS and still testing poorly, you could look at Barton or hire a tutor.  You're probably also going to need work in comprehension strategies.  There are optional comprehension kits you can buy to go with Barton.  

 

Have you done the Barton pre-test?  Given how poorly she's testing, she *might* not pass the Barton pretest.  I would start there and see how you do.  The website will give you instructions on how to score it and how to interpret the scores.  Do that and report back.  Some of those other things (working memory, etc.) will be hit with LIPS if she ends up needing it, so that's why I'm saying start with the Barton pretest.   :)

 

This is our first experience with testing, so bare with me. LOL  It says that her GAI score falls within the Average range (45th percentile) .  She has never done VT but has had an indepth eye exam checking for tracking issues, etc.  Here is a list of what tests were done:  WISC-V, WJ-4, CTOPP-2, Beery VMI, BASC-2, BASC-2-SRP-A, BASC-2-PRS-A, BASC-2-SDH. 

 

She knows her phonics and can read words in isolation very well, but when she is faced with a sentence then she has pauses while she decodes.  They suggested using a ruler under the line, which we do with an index card, to help her keep her place.  There was note made that her comprehension is low, but this hasn't been my observation at all.  She narrates back when I read, tells me about things she's reading, has been doing MoH reading solo quite often and doing accurate summary cards. She's also been doing Pathway readers and workbooks this year and has had no trouble answering comprehension questions.  So I'm not sure what to think on that account. 

 

In regards to spelling, she does fantastic during lessons with very few errors, but when she writes on her own it's a two-step process.  She quickly writes everything she's thinking and it's riddled with spelling errors, then she goes back and is able to recognize the errors and correct them.  She definitely struggles with organizing her thoughts and she doesn't always recognize when a sentence is worded incorrectly.

 

What is speed ear-reading and what does it help with?

[PeterPan]

The Woodcock Johnson that they ran for achievement testing is a good test.  Her reading comprehension score on that was terrible.  I'm guessing that's why they made the comment about low reading comprehension.  I think it's kind of curious that you have her reading MOH and are saying she's understanding so much when the tests are showing she's not.  You might want to question that.  Sometimes students have a strength that is compensating for weaknesses.  For instance, my ds had, when he had detailed language testing, 25th percentile single sentence comprehension but 99th percentile vocabulary.  So he was using a *strength* to compensate for a *weakness*.  It made him look ok at the paragraph level for comprehension, when in fact he was struggling dramatically!

 

Given that you now know she is dyslexic and struggling, you would do well to bring in supports and accommodations.  She would do well to have the *audio* of MOH to listen to as she reads.  If you load the audio onto a kindle app, you can slow the playback down.  So then she can follow along in the book while listening to the audio.  That would improve her comprehension.  You won't know how much she's affected until you give the supports, kwim?  And the pairing of audio and visual might help with spelling, reading speed, etc.

 

I've shared a link in the past for free RAN/RAS dot reading pages.  Easy to do and free.  You'd see quick improvement I think.  do a site search by typing in OhElizabeth RAN/RAS dot pages site:welltrainedmind.com and see if they pop up.

 

Ben Foss has videos on ear reading and is a huge advocate of accelerated ear reading.  Basically you start at 1.0 and increase the speed to 1.5, 2.0, and so on.  If you just increase in teeny, tiny increments, they get better.  You have to get them up to ear reading at 3X before they are ear reading at the same speed that proficient readers eye read.  In other words, if she's listening at 1X, she's still disabled.  So experts recommend that we not only use the tech but work on speeding up use of the tech.  You can also do this with TTS (text to speech) like VoiceDream or siri.  

 

It may be that the Pathway materials are not on grade level or do not have questions reflecting the types of questions asked by the WJ.  The WJ is a good test.  It's done live with the tester and the child, not with bubbles or things that would cause errors.  

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ohelizabeth+ran/ras+pages+site:welltrainedmind.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

[Storygirl]

DD10 with dyslexia has the opposite problem than what your daughter has -- she has poor decoding and word attack skills, weak phonological awareness, and stellar passage comprehension (her comprehension scores were in the 99th percentile). DD also has decent working memory (not great, but okay).

 

I am totally not an expert, but I would suspect that the working memory and processing speed issues are causing your daughter to stumble. Her word attack skills and phonics are good, but if she is having to expend a lot of brain power to decode those individual words and hold them in her mind, she may be losing track of the overall meaning by the time she gets to the end of her sentence or paragraph.

 

I agree that pairing audio with written material might be a great help to her. If you relieve some of that work she has to do to decode well, her brain can focus more on the meaning of the words. Although it may give her a boost, if she is not an auditory learner (many kids with dyslexia are visual-spatial learners), remember that pairing the auditory with the written is the key, so she is getting the information via two learning pathways at the same time.

 

[Jess4879]

The Woodcock Johnson that they ran for achievement testing is a good test.  Her reading comprehension score on that was terrible.  I'm guessing that's why they made the comment about low reading comprehension.  I think it's kind of curious that you have her reading MOH and are saying she's understanding so much when the tests are showing she's not.  You might want to question that.  Sometimes students have a strength that is compensating for weaknesses.  For instance, my ds had, when he had detailed language testing, 25th percentile single sentence comprehension but 99th percentile vocabulary.  So he was using a *strength* to compensate for a *weakness*.  It made him look ok at the paragraph level for comprehension, when in fact he was struggling dramatically!

 

Given that you now know she is dyslexic and struggling, you would do well to bring in supports and accommodations.  She would do well to have the *audio* of MOH to listen to as she reads.  If you load the audio onto a kindle app, you can slow the playback down.  So then she can follow along in the book while listening to the audio.  That would improve her comprehension.  You won't know how much she's affected until you give the supports, kwim?  And the pairing of audio and visual might help with spelling, reading speed, etc.

 

I've shared a link in the past for free RAN/RAS dot reading pages.  Easy to do and free.  You'd see quick improvement I think.  do a site search by typing in OhElizabeth RAN/RAS dot pages site:welltrainedmind.com and see if they pop up.

 

Ben Foss has videos on ear reading and is a huge advocate of accelerated ear reading.  Basically you start at 1.0 and increase the speed to 1.5, 2.0, and so on.  If you just increase in teeny, tiny increments, they get better.  You have to get them up to ear reading at 3X before they are ear reading at the same speed that proficient readers eye read.  In other words, if she's listening at 1X, she's still disabled.  So experts recommend that we not only use the tech but work on speeding up use of the tech.  You can also do this with TTS (text to speech) like VoiceDream or siri.  

 

It may be that the Pathway materials are not on grade level or do not have questions reflecting the types of questions asked by the WJ.  The WJ is a good test.  It's done live with the tester and the child, not with bubbles or things that would cause errors.  

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ohelizabeth+ran/ras+pages+site:welltrainedmind.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

 

I found the thread with the RAN/RAS dot pages, but the links say the files have been moved.  Would you be willing to email them to me? 

[PeterPan]

Try this!

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/4rcl6f0uo70esmv/AAAaGAHw3_YTMEQZSw_WI-t_a?dl=0