AoPS algebra/prealgebra

[Joyofsixreboot]

My 6th grader has finished CLE math. I had her take the pre-test for AoPS and it says she's ready for algebra. I think, despite the test, that this program is different enough from what we've done that pre-algebra is the place to start. Am I right? She does math mostly independently. She gets concepts easily but is not especially/unusually mathematical. I'm only looking at this because 1. She has asked to be challenged. 2. At this point she is looking at dentistry as a career and a good grounding seems wise. Opinions?

[...................]

It's so hard to say. I would say to try other advanced options unless either she is extremely gifted or she is gifted and you are extremely proficient in math.

 

AOPS Algebra is seriously challenging. The first few chapters are not too hard. But it gets so difficult at the end that even with the help of an amazing tutor once per week and the online videos my gifted son was getting frustrated to the point of despair over math.

 

Aops is also discovery based which is the exact opposite of CLE. Moving from Singapore to AOPS would not be a huge stretch. Moving from Saxon or CLE to AOPS IS a whole different world.

 

If you do the AOPS pre-algebra and she loves it and goes through it smoothly and enjoys the challenge and the process and even gets many of the challenge problems without help then I would say continue from there to AOPS Algebra.

 

So you could use this year as a trial to see if AOPS fits without losing any ground.

 

If like my son she gets concepts that she aready covered in CLE but struggles through new concepts, or can't do most of the challenge problems without help then I would say there are many algebra books for bright kids that are also fantastic in their own way.

[SilverMoon]

I think the placement test is misleading.

 

Print a couple of the sample chapters and see what she thinks.

[Lawyer&Mom]

I'm doing AOPS pre-algebra myself right now. (And really enjoying it.) I think it would be a great second year of pre-algebra. Don't think of it as just repeating what she has already learned. Think of it as using pre-algebra to teach problem solving. The problem sets are really well put together. I'm constantly pulling my husband over to show him something I've learned. We've both taken math as far as calculus, and there is plenty for us to chew on in AOPS pre-algebra.

[Alice]

We used AOPS Pre-Algebra after finishing Singapore 6B. Many of the concepts were review but the method and degree of difficulty of the problems made it much more than a review. It was a great fit for my son and we then moved on to AOPS Algebra. 

 

I think it's a good fit for a kid who likes to work independently and who doesn't get easily frustrated and doesn't mind being wrong or having trouble figuring out a problem. My oldest likes the idea that it is challenging and he really likes the discovery method and that he does it mostly independently. We could probably have gone straight into Algebra as far as what concepts he knew but I felt like there wasn't a reason to rush and that he would benefit from the grounding in all the concepts that they teach in Pre-Algebra. 

[Joyofsixreboot]

We used AOPS Pre-Algebra after finishing Singapore 6B. Many of the concepts were review but the method and degree of difficulty of the problems made it much more than a review. It was a great fit for my son and we then moved on to AOPS Algebra.

 

I think it's a good fit for a kid who likes to work independently and who doesn't get easily frustrated and doesn't mind being wrong or having trouble figuring out a problem. My oldest likes the idea that it is challenging and he really likes the discovery method and that he does it mostly independently. We could probably have gone straight into Algebra as far as what concepts he knew but I felt like there wasn't a reason to rush and that he would benefit from the grounding in all the concepts that they teach in Pre-Algebra.

That's where I'm at I think. Doing pre-al won't really hurt anything. She has tons of time yet. Thanks everyone. Let's hope I'm bright enough to keep up or her 20 yo brother will have to be her advisor for this.

 

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[zarabellesmom]

It's so hard to say. I would say to try other advanced options unless either she is extremely gifted or she is gifted and you are extremely proficient in math.

 

AOPS Algebra is seriously challenging. The first few chapters are not too hard. But it gets so difficult at the end that even with the help of an amazing tutor once per week and the online videos my gifted son was getting frustrated to the point of despair over math.

 

Aops is also discovery based which is the exact opposite of CLE. Moving from Singapore to AOPS would not be a huge stretch. Moving from Saxon or CLE to AOPS IS a whole different world.

 

If you do the AOPS pre-algebra and she loves it and goes through it smoothly and enjoys the challenge and the process and even gets many of the challenge problems without help then I would say continue from there to AOPS Algebra.

 

So you could use this year as a trial to see if AOPS fits without losing any ground.

 

If like my son she gets concepts that she aready covered in CLE but struggles through new concepts, or can't do most of the challenge problems without help then I would say there are many algebra books for bright kids that are also fantastic in their own way.

 

I want to comment about the last sentence specifically... I found at one time, but cannot find now, a note about grading for their online classes. They had 80-95% being an A on practice and review problems and 30-50% an A on challenge problems. (I wanted to remember this, so I copied it down onto the first page of our copy of the book.) So I wouldn't say that being unable to do most of the challenge problems without assistance means that the book is not right for the student. I did find this on their website related to grading:

 

"Grades are primarily determined by student performance on the homework. We take a holistic approach to grading; we don't have strict percentage levels for grades. Our courses are structured much like courses at top-tier colleges in that the assignments are extremely challenging, so students can earn high grades with a lower percentage correct than they would need in less rigorous classes." It's supposed to be hard. Having it be a challenge makes it fun for my daughter, but if that's not the kind of thing your child enjoys, then it might not be for her.   I've also heard a couple of people on the boards here say that the first few chapters are the most challenging and then it gets easier. (Or maybe the student adjusts?) Anyway, here's a pretty good review chapter by chapter that I found helpful:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/536672-aops-pre-algebra-detailed-review/

 

As for which book to start with, we are currently using the prealgebra book so I'm not much help there.

[...................]

I want to comment about the last sentence specifically... I found at one time, but cannot find now, a note about grading for their online classes. They had 80-95% being an A on practice and review problems and 30-50% an A on challenge problems. (I wanted to remember this, so I copied it down onto the first page of our copy of the book.) So I wouldn't say that being unable to do most of the challenge problems without assistance means that the book is not right for the student. I did find this on their website related to grading:

 

"Grades are primarily determined by student performance on the homework. We take a holistic approach to grading; we don't have strict percentage levels for grades. Our courses are structured much like courses at top-tier colleges in that the assignments are extremely challenging, so students can earn high grades with a lower percentage correct than they would need in less rigorous classes." It's supposed to be hard. Having it be a challenge makes it fun for my daughter, but if that's not the kind of thing your child enjoys, then it might not be for her.   I've also heard a couple of people on the boards here say that the first few chapters are the most challenging and then it gets easier. (Or maybe the student adjusts?) Anyway, here's a pretty good review chapter by chapter that I found helpful:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/536672-aops-pre-algebra-detailed-review/

 

As for which book to start with, we are currently using the prealgebra book so I'm not much help there.

 

I agree.  I don't think even the brightest students are required or expected to get all of the Challenge problems. OP, just know that...even AOPS doesn't expect their online class students to get every Challenge problem. They are seriously challenging, and called "Challenge" for a reason. Within  each chapter there are regular problem practice sets to assess and practice student retention and understanding.  And even those are more thought provoking than a typical algebra text.

 

However, I think, using a Pre-Algebra course (a course the OP's student has ALREADY passed with CLE), she could use the Challenge problems as a guide.  If her daughter gets a lot of them (60%?) without looking at the solutions manual, then I think she has the type of brain, IQ, and thinking process that would be able to handle and go forward with AOPS ALgebra.  I'm thinking the CHallenge problems are kind of a litmus test for the OP.  ...I could be wrong...it's just my thoughts on the situation.

 

Remember, there are a lot of people on these boards that have used AOPS Pre-Algebra....NOT a lot that have used AOPS Algebra and very few that have used AOPS Intermediate Algebra.  They will agree with me, I think.  It's VERY challenging!  I would not want to turn other kids off of something just because my own kid struggled in the end of the course!  All kids have to reach their potential and shoot for the stars.  And we all want homeschool kids to succeed and reach beyond the typical.

 

However, struggling through ALgebra 1 is a problem because that sets the tone for high school math, which sets the tone for college admissions.  I think it's wiser to use the Pre-Alg as a gauge to see whether the ALg is likely to be a good fit or not.  I can only share my own thoughts and experience, it's all we really have.  :o)

[Arcadia]

Get an Alcumus account. Set it to the prealgebra book and let her finish all the problems in that set. More accurate than the pretest for the Intro to Algebra book. The prealgebra book is also not just algebra so the last few chapters on Pythagoras theorem, simple statistics and simple combinatorics can be more fun for a kid.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Thanks to all. I'm going to set her to trying the alums problems. She likes puzzle and challenges and is a bulldog with problems. Her perseverance is legendary. It'll form character at the least.

 

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[Targhee]

Spend some time trying Alcumus topics and gauge how the new format challenges her.

 

There's no rush to higher maths, even for professional-school-oriented students. You need to take calculus before dental school. You have nearly 10 years!

 

More important is sound understanding at each level.

 

I think she may find the question style, format (and length!) of AOPS preA challenging enough.

[Arcadia]

.She likes puzzle and challenges and is a bulldog with problems. Her perseverance is legendary

My DS11's stubbornness is extreme too :lol:

Let her try the AMC8 past year paper too. She might enjoy the challenge. If she wants to take the AMC8 this November, check your local math circles if they are hosting.

 

This link has some AMC8 past year paper and solutions

https://columbiamathcircle.wordpress.com/2011/10/08/amc8-practice-tests-and-materials/

[Julie of KY]

I agree with much of what has already been stated.

 

The placement tests for AoPS are deceptively easy compared to the books. Many students who can do all the problems on the placement tests are not ready for the challenge of that level of book.

 

I love starting with the AoPS Prealgebra book. .. and I would recommend most anyone start here especially if your child is on the younger side. Go fast, try out other AoPS intro books, have fun, but the prealgebra book lays a great foundation and will make the transition to the Algebra book much easier.

 

Alcumus is a great introduction to how AoPS does things, however I do think Alcumus is slightly easier than the textbook. All the answers have to be number answers whereas the textbook will often ask the student to explain something which takes a higher level of understanding.

 

Don't be afraid to move away from AoPS if it becomes too frustrating for your student. As you go farther along, the books get very tough.

[TracyP]

My dd went from a CLE 6/MM 6 combo into AoPS Prealgebra. Some of it was review, but it deepened her understanding and taught her how to persevere through tough problems. It also made her go from being tolerant of math to loving math. :) She is now half way through Intro to Algebra, and it is still going very well. We are not wedded to the idea of sticking with AoPS forever, but we have loved our time with it so far. Enjoy!!

[skimomma]

I was in your shoes a year ago.  My dd took the placement test and it said she was "ready" for algebra.  After consulting the forums here and taking into account that my dd is bright but not a math genius, we decided to spend another year on pre-algebra.  I am SO SO SO glad we did!  

 

The discovery method takes some getting used to.  So does getting a LOT of problems wrong the first time.  Dd has a very strong love/hate relationship with AoPS.  The "grit" required has been both very frustrating and very good for dd.  She has needed this experience even though it has caused tears.  She is used to everything coming easily and quickly.  There have been weeks that I have been concerned and considered canning the program.  But now that we are nearly done with the pre-A book, dd's problem solving skills and basic resilience have greatly improved. I have suggested/offered to go with another program for algebra but dd wants to stick with AoPS.  I am a little concerned when I see reports on here that algebra is much more difficult since we found pre-a to be difficult.  But we will at least try it.  We also have time on our hands.  Dd will be in 8th grade next year so if it takes two years or we have to switch gears and start over with another program we are still good.