WRTR vs SWR

[sunshineslp]

I think I understand these are both similar? What are the differences? Is one easier than the other to use with a larger family where it would be used across several students? Do they both teach similar concepts?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[Ellie]

I think I understand these are both similar? What are the differences? Is one easier than the other to use with a larger family where it would be used across several students? Do they both teach similar concepts?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

 

SWR is a Spalding spin-off. Wanda Sanseri used to be a Spalding teacher, and she decided to write her own method, which is, naturally, based on Spalding.

 

Seems to me Spalding would be simpler to use: One manual (Spalding is the method; WRTR is the manual), one set of phonogram cards, a spelling notebook for each child, done.

[sunshineslp]

Thanks Ellie! I have a kid who's used LoE foundations A-D. Is it silly to then move to wrtr? Is there a placement test?

 

I'm struggling to figure out where I want to go after LoE. I want to stick with a strong rules based program. You seem very experienced with all these programs. What would you pick after LoE?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

Edited February 3, 2016 by sunshineslp

[Ellie]

Thanks Ellie! I have a kid who's used LoE foundations A-D. Is it silly to then move to wrtr? Is there a placement test?

 

I'm struggling to figure out where I want to go after LoE. I want to stick with a strong rules based program. You seem very experienced with all these programs. What would you pick after LoE?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

 

Spalding is the method; WRTR is the manual. :-)

 

I am not familiar with LOE, other than to see that it is a Spalding spin-off. Seems to me that once you finish LOE, you shouldn't have to do a formal spelling, which is true of Spalding.

 

The only placement test for Spalding is the Morrison-McCall Spelling Scale. If a child places at high school level, then I would say he doesn't need to do anything else. :-)

[sunshineslp]

He definitely still needs spelling. He's in 2nd grade. Hmmm I'll keep considering...

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[bfw0729]

Spalding is the method; WRTR is the manual. :-)

 

I am not familiar with LOE, other than to see that it is a Spalding spin-off. Seems to me that once you finish LOE, you shouldn't have to do a formal spelling, which is true of Spalding.

 

The only placement test for Spalding is the Morrison-McCall Spelling Scale. If a child places at high school level, then I would say he doesn't need to do anything else. :-)

Where can one purchase the Morrison-McCall Spelling Scale?

[bfw0729]

We are switching from Spell to Write and Read to Spalding. I am not switching cold turkey because cost is a factor, but we are almost there. We have been breaking up the schedule the way Spalding suggests in the book and so far things are much smoother. I also feel that because we are spending less time on complicated aspects in teaching spelling, the children's minds are more open to learning and remembering the words. They never could predict how they would learn the words that day - at least after the words were dictated. This didn't work for us.

[sunshineslp]

We are switching from Spell to Write and Read to Spalding. I am not switching cold turkey because cost is a factor, but we are almost there. We have been breaking up the schedule the way Spalding suggests in the book and so far things are much smoother. I also feel that because we are spending less time on complicated aspects in teaching spelling, the children's minds are more open to learning and remembering the words. They never could predict how they would learn the words that day - at least after the words were dictated. This didn't work for us.

So you feel Spalding (wrtr?) is easier to use? Lessons are shorter? Is it very difficult to jump into without starting at the beginning? I'll have to look into the spelling assessment too.

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[carriede]

Thanks Ellie! I have a kid who's used LoE foundations A-D. Is it silly to then move to wrtr? Is there a placement test?

 

I'm struggling to figure out where I want to go after LoE. I want to stick with a strong rules based program. You seem very experienced with all these programs. What would you pick after LoE?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

I would think you'd have trouble doing a different program after doing LOE for so long. The markings and rules are different, which would be a big deal I think.

 

Have you looked at LOE Essentials? They have the 2nd edition coming out.

 

That, or you could find a set of the Extended Ayres word list that Spalding uses and do the words with LOE's markings and rules on your own. Then just use the same method of dictation that you learned in LOE for spelling lessons.

[sunshineslp]

I would think you'd have trouble doing a different program after doing LOE for so long. The markings and rules are different, which would be a big deal I think.

 

Have you looked at LOE Essentials? They have the 2nd edition coming out.

 

That, or you could find a set of the Extended Ayres word list that Spalding uses and do the words with LOE's markings and rules on your own. Then just use the same method of dictation that you learned in LOE for spelling lessons.

Thank you! Yes I've seen essentials. It's about $400 for the year. It's just too pricey.

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[kirstenhill]

Another option would be a used 1st edition Essentials. There should be good deals available with 2nd edition coming out, and you probably already have some of the materials on hand (phonogram cards, game cards?).

 

Depending on your comfort level with the idea of teaching the concepts and knowing how to mark words, you could use a list from another source, and just teach the markings/phonograms in the LOE manner. I got the "rules/phonograms" quick reference from LOE, and then also purchased SWR's "alpha list" to use as a reference, even though it doesn't match up perfectly to LoE's marking scheme. Then I used the lists and dictation sentences from Spelling Plus and Dictation Resource Book. But, this was with my DD who had already been through Essentials and just needed more practice...so she had a stronger background in spelling than a student just coming out of Foundations.

[sunshineslp]

How is the first edition? Is the second really that much better or easier to use?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[FO4UR]

SWR was written as a spin-off of Spalding to make it easier to use.

 

I used SWR for 2.5 years, studying WRTR Manual several times over to make sure I was REALLY doing everything right.  I was.

 

Spalding is great for teaching 12 year olds and up.  I learned a lot as I grappled with SWR and WRTR.  That said, for my (at the time) 5-7yo it was too much, too fast, and not in the best format for a young child.  My (at the time) 3-5yo learned to read very well by eaves dropping in on these lessons, however.

 

If I had to choose between either SWR or WRTR, I would pick WRTR and I would pick up an old copy.  I got mine for $2, I think.  Do not spend hundreds of dollars on a spelling curric for a 2nd grader. I think WRTR makes a great teacher's resource.

 

What *I* would do with a kid who already knows the markings for LOE???  I would do daily copywork, pulled from literature.  Ask him to spell each word in the sentence aloud.  Every word that he doesn't easily spell goes on the list for the day.  Study the words ala LOE.  Put them in a notebook.  Copy the sentence.

 

As he gets older, morph that copying of the sentence into a dictation.

 

 

You have 4 kids, young kids, and all close in age.  Honestly, this is a game-changer!  Think about what your day looks like.  (I know!!  I've got 4 kids also!   :lol: )  You cannot spend an hour per day per kid just on spelling. :huh:   You have to think about what will actually get done, and what will work within the family dynamic.  Some of the Spalding (and O-G) zealots claim that you are going to mess your kids up for life if you veer away from the official rules & phonograms.  This makes mom afraid to try other things that fit better into their own lives.  (We are not in a school!)  With your little crew, you are going to need things that they can do independently, things that can be used to combine some things, and things that are laid out and scripted for you.  Perfect programs that are impossible to implement in YOUR real life are a stumbling block, not helpful.

 

Read, Write, Type by www.talkingfingers.com  I have the Jingle Spells and Word Querty too.  These are AWESOME!  They mesh well with Spalding too!  You can set a child up at the computer with this and work with the others for 20 minutes.

 

 

Happy Phonics:  This set of games also meshes well with Spalding.  Some things are a smidge different, but I like the HP way BETTER!  It makes sense for the kids. The way the games are organized is very clever.  You can set 2-3 kids up playing a HP game and have 20-30 minutes to work with another child.  The older ones will teach the younger ones through these games.  Work smarter, not harder, momma!

 

If you do those two things above, then you can feel confident using copywork (as described above) to hit spelling on an individual basis.  This only takes 10-20 minutes, depending upon the age of the child and how much they are playing the above games (and getting the phonics).  

[Ellie]

So you feel Spalding (wrtr?) is easier to use? Lessons are shorter? Is it very difficult to jump into without starting at the beginning? I'll have to look into the spelling assessment too.

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

 

I think Spalding would be easier to do because there is only one manual (WRTR).

 

Lessons are however long you want them to be.

 

Of course you'd start at the beginning. Everyone starts at the beginning, even in schools that do Spalding--all the students start at the beginning every year. It isn't a big deal. You review the phonograms to be sure the dc know them all; older children would write the rule pages in their notebooks, then start in the spelling list where they test. Your little persons would not write the rule pages; you'd just start with the Section A-G.

 

Having said that, let me say this: Spalding and its spin-offs are time intensive. With as many young children as you have, none of them might be the best choice for you. You could do your two oldest together, but you're going to need at least half an hour of uninterrupted time. Do you have that?

[sunshineslp]

Oh boy. You guys are extremely helpful. Thank you so much for your time! First off, I appreciate the "reality check" you both offer with my kids ages. I am honestly not sure I have 30 uninterrupted minutes. I'm doing LoE with three of my kids now and I can honestly say, it's not as "great" as it was with my oldest when I first did the program. I just don't have the time to implement it the way I had then (the correct way).

 

I could have 15-20 min I think, uninterrupted. It's true that something independent would be nice (when they are a bit older, 3rd and up maybe). I'm trying to just get through foundations D with each and then figure out what to switch to. It seems D lasts until 2nd grade-ish.

 

I've heard spelling power is ok. What about spelling you see?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

Edited February 3, 2016 by sunshineslp

[RootAnn]

Both SWR & WRTR require an upfront investment of time from the mom-teacher. You have a leg up on that because you used LOE which has some of the same ideas as WRTR spelled out for you. 

 

However, you'll still have to spend time reading, rereading, and then studying the manual (WRTR or SWR) before implementing.

 

They teach similar concepts. SWR, originally called something else, was written to attempt to make WRTR easier to use. There is some debate about whether that was actually accomplished.  :lol:

 

The differences are mostly just in which exact phonograms, markings, and rules are taught and how the daily flow goes. The basics are the same:  drill with phonogram cards, drill written phonograms, dictate spelling words, read spelling words, and teach the spelling rules as you go along.

 

The order & content of the (spelling) word lists are slightly different. I believe that both WRTR (Morrison-McCall Spelling Scale) & SWR ("diagnostic test") have a placement test of some sort in them. The Ayers Spelling Ability test is available on the internet for free. I think the SWR diagnostic & word lists are based on Ayers' list.

 

I spend 30-45 minutes per day at least four days per week on spelling using SWR with each 'grouping' of kids I have. I can usually group two of the kids together & have to separate 1-2 others. I've only been able to do two groups of SWR each year - so 60-90 minutes just on spelling almost every day. Theoretically,  you can combine all the kids for phonogram cards, but I've never been able to do that. Mine are just too spread out.

 

I will have the three oldest combined next year for (hopefully) their last year of SWR - going through the last part of the spelling lists again. Then, my #4 kid will be going through the first part of the spelling lists for the second time. My #5 kid will be starting SWR and going through the lists for the first time. I can't combine them because #4 writes faster & knows his phonograms better than #5. We'll see if I can pull off three groups ... I've never been able to before, but there is always a first time.

 

WRTR is cheap in the older editions. Why not pick up a $5 copy of the 3rd or 4th edition & read it cover to cover. If it makes a glimmer of sense, stay up late a few nights in a row with a highlighter, a pen, & a pad of paper & read through it again. See if you think it is doable. Good luck.

[Ellie]

Oh boy. You guys are extremely helpful. Thank you so much for your time! First off, I appreciate the "reality check" you both offer with my kids ages. I am honestly not sure I have 30 uninterrupted minutes. I'm doing LoE with three of my kids now and I can honestly say, it's not as "great" as it was with my oldest when I first did the program. I just don't have the time to implement it the way I had then (the correct way).

 

I could have 15-20 min I think, uninterrupted. It's true that something independent would be nice (when they are a bit older, 3rd and up maybe). I'm trying to just get through foundations D with each and then figure out what to switch to. It seems D lasts until 2nd grade-ish.

 

I've heard spelling power is ok. What about spelling you see?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

 

Spelling You See is weak, IMHO.

 

Honestly, once you finish LOE, seems to me you wouldn't need an official spelling. It is so with Spalding.

 

OTOH, some spelling series offer more than just spelling lists. Spelling by Sound and Structure (Rod and Staff) does. Beginning in fourth, it's a pretty decent series (although sometimes what it teaches rubs my Spalding geekness the wrong way, lol). Dictionary skills, prefixes and suffixes, usage in general...it's pretty good.

[sunshineslp]

Sometimes I don't love LoE. There. I said it[emoji23]. My oldest has done through level D and he is fairly decent at spelling but I think that's just him. He hates spelling/writing. I know we need something though. I can't not do a spelling program. He just isn't ready to go off copywork only. I could try. Sometimes I think of dropping LoE altogether and using SWR with my kids coming up instead of LoE. But sheesh i hate the intensive nature of it.

 

I actually thought SYS might be ok since it deals more in copywork and dictation. But I guess then I could just do any copywork then. Hmmm. Still pondering. Thank you guys!

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[kirstenhill]

Spelling You See is weak, IMHO.

 

Honestly, once you finish LOE, seems to me you wouldn't need an official spelling. It is so with Spalding.

 

OTOH, some spelling series offer more than just spelling lists. Spelling by Sound and Structure (Rod and Staff) does. Beginning in fourth, it's a pretty decent series (although sometimes what it teaches rubs my Spalding geekness the wrong way, lol). Dictionary skills, prefixes and suffixes, usage in general...it's pretty good.

I think though to "finish" LOE you would have to go through Essentials, which sunshineslp hasn't done with her oldest. While Foundations certainly introduces all the phonograms and most of the rules, it is more at an introductory level for the harder rules and phonograms. A student who goes through all of essentials might be done with spelling, but a struggling student needs more practice. (Perhaps similar to the way a student in a Spalding method classroom might go through some of the lists more than one year in a row if they can't test out of the list the next year?).

[kirstenhill]

How is the first edition? Is the second really that much better or easier to use?

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

I've never seen the 2nd edition (it is pretty much brand new, right? I don't think many people have used it yet). I had Essentials before I had foundations (used it with oldest DD), and it was perfect for me as I was just learning the LOE "system". That being said, after having done Essentials and really understanding what is going on with this type of method in general...I think I now have the understanding that I could use to teach using WRTR or SWR if I needed or wanted to.

 

As others said, it might be worth it to you to check out WRTR from your library or buy a cheap used copy, and see if it makes sense to you. I couldn't make any sense of it before I did LOE, but when I read it later, it made perfect sense .

 

Other options to consider would be How to Teach Spelling by Rudginsky...and for something totally different, consider Apples and Pears. This is not a popular opinion, but I think for my DS8, going to apples and pears after doing LOE was actually a good move for him. I apply my knowledge of phonograms as I teach him, even though they aren't explicitly taught as such (teaches using morphemes instead). It is still teacher intensive, but you might able to combine kids. And it is zero prep.

[sunshineslp]

Ok so I have a friend who is wanting to sell her first edition essentials. I looked at it and like it. I think it'll work:). Thank you all for helping me figure this out.

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[Ellie]

 (Perhaps similar to the way a student in a Spalding method classroom might go through some of the lists more than one year in a row if they can't test out of the list the next year?).

 

There's no "testing out." :-) There's only one list. In Spalding schools, all children do Spalding every year for several years, no exceptions. :-)

[FO4UR]

Sometimes I don't love LoE. There. I said it[emoji23]. My oldest has done through level D and he is fairly decent at spelling but I think that's just him. He hates spelling/writing. I know we need something though. I can't not do a spelling program. He just isn't ready to go off copywork only. I could try. Sometimes I think of dropping LoE altogether and using SWR with my kids coming up instead of LoE. But sheesh i hate the intensive nature of it.

 

I actually thought SYS might be ok since it deals more in copywork and dictation. But I guess then I could just do any copywork then. Hmmm. Still pondering. Thank you guys!

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

 

 

To the bolded:  Listen to your son. He hates spelling & writing?  It's normal for a child to wish to play rather than work, but if he hates spelling...say over every other subject with the strong feelings that hate portray, stop and think.  Dragging a reluctant student along for the ride is miserable for you both and a bad attitude is contagious. Preserve a pleasant atmosphere. That is more important than even spelling.

 

Don't do copywork only,  Study the words.  Use what you've learned through teaching LOE and apply that info to words that have meaning to him.  The lists in SWR and WRTR, and I'm sure LOE too are rather random feeling...organized by frequency rather than any pattern.  Is there really any difference organizing the words by the order in which they appear in passages of literature that are meaningful to your child?

 

Merge spelling with your poetry memorization.  Study the words, copy the lines, visualize the imagery, visualize the words.  If you memorized one poem a week, studying all the words contained in the poem, do you know how many of the phonics patterns you'd cover in a year?  ALL of them...and they would be much more likely to be retained.

 

 

I understand the desire for a program, for a workbook.  There is nothing wrong with using those things IF they make your homeschool run smoother.  If they are stressing anyone out, not getting done, or hated...ditch the program...that goes for spelling, math, whatever.  Having 4 happy, healthy, and educated kids is possible, but your home is not going to look like someone who has only one or two kids in their homeschool.  Think that through as you navigate curriculum.  I have banged my head against that wall. (I only do real spelling lessons with 2 of my kids, only the dyslexics.  My natural reader/speller gets a go-over of the spelling phonograms & rules at the beginning of each year and she does copywork/dictation.  As soon as the less severe dyslexic can, he will switch to copywork/dictation.  NOT b/c of the workload, but that is a help...but b/c copywork/dictation is a meatier lesson...a 2-for-1... spelling/grammar/vocab/handwriting/working memory/visual memory/literature/and more...)

[forty-two]

I actually thought SYS might be ok since it deals more in copywork and dictation. But I guess then I could just do any copywork then.

I've done part of SYS Wild Tales (level C) with dd9. I really love the general idea of the color-coded marking system (multi-letter vowel phonograms, r-controlled vowels, y-as-a-vowel, multi-letter consonant phonograms, silent letters, and prefixes/suffixes (I added blends because my dd couldn't hear blends well)), and I needed to see it done to make sense of it. But now that I have, I use it with anything and everything, and we're probably never going to finish the SYS book we have, let alone order another. (Although it is impressively open-and-go.)

 

SYS doesn't have everything that O-G programs have: it includes phonograms (learned implicitly through using them), but doesn't explicitly teach the sounds and also doesn't teach any rules, and it doesn't use the whole "think to spell" approach. You could include all of this if you know it, of course, but the program itself teaches spelling through bringing kids' attention to the phonograms used and through copying and writing from dictation in context, with plenty of repetition. It's very much an "imprint the visual spelling" program instead of a "think through spelling the sounds you hear" program. It's pretty low-key, about 15 min a day, and is very nicely laid out and is open-and-go. It would be easy enough to continue drilling the phonograms and include some LOE word analysis discussion as you do the SYS marking, but it's not part of the program itself (they only spell from sound in the beginning, in the first two levels, long enough to establish the idea that spelling is writing sounds, before moving into the visually-based phonogram marking).

Edited February 4, 2016 by forty-two