Personal Space

[nature girl]

Do any of your children have an issue with personal space? Anna is awful about respecting other people’s space. She’s very affectionate, which is sweet, but she always wants to hug and kiss her friends, even when it’s obvious they’re uncomfortable. They can tell her to stop, and she’ll just use that as a reason to try harder, like she can't understand WHY they wouldn't want to be hugged.

 

I’m at a loss now what to do…I’ve tried using rewards for not hugging, constant reminders, and we’ve read a couple of books on personal space, but nothing seems to help. Even with me and my husband, when she’s affectionate she’s often vigorously so, giving tens of kisses at a time, insisting on climbing on me and burrowing into me (which is okay, but getting painful now she’s bigger and has such pointy knees and elbows!) We do Zones, so I’ve started talking about “yellow love†and “green love,†and how the unexpected behavior makes other people feel…And she understands all of it, but doesn’t put it into practice. When she feels something she feels it BIG (emotional regulation), and just can’t help herself from expressing it (impulsivity), which is getting less and less acceptable as she gets older. Do any of you have suggestions?

[OneStepAtATime]

My son is similar, although not so extreme. It has been a long, hard road because my husband and daughter are the opposite and have not handled his affection well. It has caused emotional damage, being rejected frequently. I don't have good suggestions but definitely you are right to worry and question what to do now, while she is still very young. Keep doing research, seek experts who might be able to advise. This is really I guess about complete lack of impulse control coupled with a very affectionate personality. That is a tough situation because the lack of impulse control is not because of lack of instruction, but probably more neurological in nature. Harder to help her. It may take more effort/time/outside the box strategies. Definitely worth trying to get her that help, though. You don't want her to end up feeling unloved/unwanted by friends or family because they start avoiding her. Hugs. I hope you can find answers.

Edited January 8, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[Innisfree]

I'm wondering if there is a sensory component to this, particularly when you talk about her "burrowing into" you. Has she been evaluated for sensory issues? Maybe that would be a different way to approach the situation. Hugs. That sounds hard.

[nature girl]

Yes, she has mild sensory issues (and she's now in OT) so that could be part of it. She does the excessive kissing more than the burrowing though (although maybe that's sensory as well?) I do think it's mostly genuine affection and feeling the need to express it, though. She sees a friend she hasn't seen for a week and her whole face lights up with love...and then she barrels into them with the "I love you's!" and kisses. Ah, my girl! I'm just imagining her doing this at 30, lol. Funny/notfunny.

[Lecka]

I agree on wondering if sensory seeking is part of it.

 

I wonder if you could try more of an explicit rule approach... I have not done it, but I have seen a program where they use hula hoops, and you stand in your hula hoop.  I have seen one where you hold up your arm straight ahead, to show "this is how far to stand from someone."  This is more for kids who maybe just don't have a good way to sense just how close/far they are from someone, and are standing too close on accident. 

 

Could you teach her an alternative "affectionate" behavior?  I have done this (just a little bit) with "high fives" and "give me five, up high, down low, too slow."  It is fun and it is also saying to "do" something instead of to "not do" something.  It is kind-of a redirection.  It is still kind-of affectionate. 

 

Is there any fun, light-hearted re-direction you could do, instead of saying "no, stop," if that might work out sometimes (and then maybe still say "no, stop" if re-direction didn't work, but hopefully it works some of the time).

 

When she is doing it with you, can you say "I think you would like a big squeeze" and see if you can re-direct her to that (if you are at home where it is easy, etc.). 

 

She also might be showing discomfort some of the time.  Is there a time/place she starts to do it?  Does she do okay for so long, and then she starts doing this as she starts to be at the end of her rope?  If you see anything like this (like, that she is getting overstimulated) ---- then you could look for a chance to offer a break before she is overstimulated.

 

But for all of these ---- they are things that might work sometimes, I wouldn't expect them to be super-effective, but at least it can be nice to have at least some ideas sometimes, instead of just dreading certain things and then going into "I hate this and have no strategies" mode -- never a good mode.   

 

I think the things you are already doing are good, and I have a lot of optimism that they will help with this in the long-term.  The long-term is so long, but the baby steps do all count and are all worthwhile!

Edited January 8, 2016 by Lecka

[nature girl]

Lecka, those are all fantastic ideas. Thank you!

 

(She rarely, if ever, gets overstimulated. I do know the excessive kissing is sometimes just to get attention, if DH and I are talking at dinner she'll often try to climb up on one of our laps and cover our faces with kisses. So because of understimulation rather than overstimulation. We're working on acceptable ways to get attention, but it's very much a work in progress...)

[Lecka]

For that, you can try to teach her "appropriate way to wait for a break in conversation and say something." 

 

If you see her getting antsy, you can have a pause, look at her, she talks, you praise her good manners, (not exactly --- but if you know she will be impatient, make a pause in your conversation and praise her good manners while she is still at the point she is doing well). 

 

You can also play a waiting game where you see how long she can wait to do something, starting with a very short time, and working up to a little longer time.  "Wow, you are so patient and good at waiting." 

 

This is not perfect either, but when you know when it comes up, it can help. 

 

I have also heard it is better to say "stand like a ...." or "be patient like a ....." where the child can pretend something while they wait, that it makes it easier on them to wait and to understand what you are asking them to do.  But then ideally it transfers to other times the child may need to wait for a small amount of time. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Lecka

[nature girl]

More great ideas, thank you! I'm forwarding all this to my husband.

 

You know, re: the "patient like a" idea, one thing that worked for her is having her pretend she was one of her friends, a very quiet girl who rarely talks. She initiated it last year, made little pink glasses out of construction paper, put them on and her entire demeanor changed, facial expressions, body movements, for literally a half hour or more she BECAME this girl who is her complete opposite! (Future actress, for sure.) So for awhile when we needed her to be quiet (church, library, etc.) we'd say, "Can you pretend to be Ellie while we're here?" And then we quickly realized we felt awful about it, that she might start thinking we wanted Ellie as a daughter instead...so we stopped. But the "patient like a/quiet like a (animal)" might work perfectly, along with the praise.

[Lecka]

We actually did "stand like a soldier" b/c my husband is a soldier. 

 

Your daughter sounds so creative, I bet she can come up with a lot of ideas!!!!!

[Mom28GreatKids]

My sensory seekig son is like this- over affectionate with me, dad, siblings, the cats. He loves hard hugs and lots of kisses. I would guess that has something to do with it. Lots of good advice above. God to know we are not alone.

[Guest]

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Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[imagine.more]

Our Ana is like this too. She's older so it's somewhat tempered but she'll often get in the baby or toddler's face...regardless of who has a cold or flu or if they show obvious discomfort. She has also been known to sit on people, tickle too hard, just generally hangs on me, and gets in people's personal space. The only thing I've found is very clear never-changing rules. So like I can't let her hang on me at home if it's not okay in a store...because she just cannot understand the difference. And I can't let her kiss the baby on the face ever because she doesn't understand not to do it when she has a huge cold sore or the baby has snot from a cold all over. Anyway, so basically what can help is clear rules that are good in all contexts.

[PeterPan]

You could make social stories for it and then review daily.  Or see if there are social stories for it in any of the social stories books. 

[Guest]

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Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[PeterPan]

You know what's funny?  I think I got that particular book a year ago and ds wasn't ready.  I'm looking at it now, now that he's fully 7, going ok we could sorta start this.  And the reviews say similar things, with people saying they got it at 7 and it didn't really CLICK till 9.  So I would say get the book, start learning yourself, but there might be a timing to it too, like when that particular dc is ready.  And readiness to understand the words or the length of text might not be it.  I think it's almost like it's their question or something they're ready to notice or a scenario where it would matter to them.  There are things like that for ds that are coming, just slower.  For instance he didn't have joint attention till a few months ago, and now he does have some.  Now he'll notice if I'm there and look up and try to communicate with me.  So there can be sort of an emotional readiness to think about these things and notice them.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1932565620?dpID=41qJTC8OEGL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_SL500_SR90%2C135_&refRID=D3ZZHCQDBWZSTD30W91B&ref_=pd_rhf_eetyp_s_cp_1

 

Here's another book.  I got this from the library many months ago, and at the time it wasn't clicking for me.  Now I can see how to use it and his descriptions of how to analyze situations actually make sense.  You're talking personal space and this book is on meltdowns.  I'm just saying even if they aren't right now, they might be right in 6 months or a year.

Edited January 9, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[nature girl]

All that to say, you could try stuffed animals to divert her focus. After we had my youngest, I used to carry a stuffed animal with us for my oldest. He always felt like he had a special friend with him when I needed to focus more on the baby. You could try telling her, whenever she feels the urge to squeeze a friend, to squeeze her stuffed friend instead. You can later make it a small stuffed animal that she can carry in her pocket and squeeze with her hand.

 

That's a good idea. She has a stuffed animal lovey (who I stopped letting her take out of her room because we wouldn't be able to find him at bedtime, which led to massive upset!) But letting her take him out to be available for hugs could be nice for her.

 

(Funny, she hasn't gone crazy with affection since I started this post yesterday, so I haven't been able to try any of this. Figures.)

 

 

(Note: OhE, I was starting to write this when you wrote your comment, saying basically the same thing. :001_smile:) I'd looked at the Social Skills Picture Book awhile ago, but I wasn't sure it would be right for her. A couple of the "stories" are things she needs work on, but she's not very self-analytical, I doubt she'd be able to transfer anything she'd read there into her own life. We've read stories about personal space, and she's understood she's reading them in reference to an issue she has, but when the time comes to put the ideas in practice she's just too impulsive to stop and think about what she's learned. I don't know if she's just not old enough to internalize the lessons, or if realizing what she's doing just comes too late in the process. (A couple of days ago I talked to her about the way she'd bombarded one of her friends with hugs and she said, "She didn't tell me no!" But the girl obviously stiffened, didn't hug back, her face was showing obvious discomfort, none of that sinks in.)

 

We've had the same issue with all the social skills training I've tried to do, really. We've just finished reading Glassman (Superflex) who makes people have big reactions to small problems...It's an amazing book, there's so much in there, and she enjoyed it. We had a lot of conversation around it, both talking about the times we, and her friends, had been taken over by Glassman. But this morning she exploded when she couldn't get a piece of tape rolled, to double stick something to the wall, and I said I thought I could see Glassman in her brain, and wondered if she could find ways of getting him back out again. It made her more angry at the time, which is understandable. But when I tried to talk to her about it later she just refused to listen, and wouldn't internalize.

[PeterPan]

AM, that's too funny that we were saying the same thing at the same time!   :D  Yes.  And, you know, what you might do is try some social/behavioral instruction that is more kinesthetic, rather than so cognitive.  Yes, ds' impulsivity is CRAZY high and factoring into it.  You can do meds.  I say that and ds is not on meds.  Anyways, you're seeing that blame shifting, etc.  If you subtract 3 years and go ok, is her understanding more like that? then things might click.  Now that ds is fully 7 (7 and 3 months), doing the -3 thing actually gets us to something I can really tell makes sense.  Like does he process emotion and get treated like a 4 yo?  Yes.  A 4 yo who listens to college lectures and watches woodworking shows (what he's doing right now, common for him on Saturday mornings), but a 4 yo, lol.

 

I finally got one of the RDI books, and I'm crazy excited to start some of the activities with him.  I think we're going to let it take over our whole gig.  I had this impression from the RDI provider I talked with that you couldn't just pick up the book and do it, blah blah, but it really makes sense to me.  Considering how little I paid for the book, I think I'll get some value out of it.  And that would be on that kinesthetic, doing/watching, responding sort of level, not on the more abstract/analytical level.  

Edited January 9, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[nature girl]

It's crazy the incongruity, isn't it? Anna has a huge vocabulary and she's so philosophical, she asks the deepest questions and the discussions we have are sometimes discussions I could imagine having with a teen. Which makes it so hard to understand and accept when she acts like an emotionally charged 3 year old. She's looking for the meaning of life, but can't look at her own feelings. (Actually, she can look at them in retrospect...Zones has been good for that, although I don't know how long it might take for her to begin looking at them in the moment. And the ability to understand how she's affecting other people? Yeah, maybe she's at the level of a 3yo, she can't see it at all.)

 

Is there an RDI book you'd recommend? I'm looking at this one: http://www.amazon.com/Relationship-Development-Intervention-Young-Children/dp/1843107147/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452356822&sr=1-2&keywords=rdi

[texasmama]

A hula hoop is a good way to demonstrate personal space.  

[PeterPan]

A hula hoop is a good way to demonstrate personal space.  

What is the hula hoop supposed to tell you?  And preschool size or big kid/regular size?  Or does it depend on the age?  

 

If it means what I think it means, my son fails, oops.

[nature girl]

The hula hoop was in one of the books we read, they had kids sitting/standing with a hoop around them to demonstrate how close they should be in order to keep from making others uncomfortable. Anna understood the hula hoop, but in real life isn't able to keep herself at that distance.

[PeterPan]

AM, yes that's the book!  Actually, *I* was learning things by reading the first chapters, hehe.  Anyways, it's really good.  Right now, where we are at I'm looking at that thinking that's in reach for him, that we could work on those things and go through those steps.  And it might not be PERFECT, but the price would be right.  Right now there are vgc used copies for only $10.  That's a good deal! And then there's a teen/adult version that is the sequel with MORE exercises and steps.

 

Texas, didn't you get the RDI book a while back to try it?

[PeterPan]

The hula hoop was in one of the books we read, they had kids sitting/standing with a hoop around them to demonstrate how close they should be in order to keep from making others uncomfortable. Anna understood the hula hoop, but in real life isn't able to keep herself at that distance.

Ok, but then aren't there plenty of scenarios where that doesn't apply?  For instance, if you're in line (which ds has to do a TON because of his classes, waiting for classes, etc.), there's still some kind of sense of you're too close, you're inching me out, vs. normal close for that situation.

[nature girl]

Ok, but then aren't there plenty of scenarios where that doesn't apply?  For instance, if you're in line (which ds has to do a TON because of his classes, waiting for classes, etc.), there's still some kind of sense of you're too close, you're inching me out, vs. normal close for that situation.

 

Yes, this book actually addressed standing in line...I forget exactly what it said, but they talked about different distances for different people and different situations.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Personal-Space-Camp-Julia-Cook/dp/1931636877/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452359367&sr=1-1&keywords=personal+space+camp

[PeterPan]

Yes, this book actually addressed standing in line...I forget exactly what it said, but they talked about different distances for different people and different situations.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Personal-Space-Camp-Julia-Cook/dp/1931636877/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452359367&sr=1-1&keywords=personal+space+camp

Ooo thanks, I think he's finally ready for that!!  I got the mouth is a volcano book a year ago from the library and was like wow, that doesn't fit.  But it just wasn't timely.  His mind is now to where maybe he could notice some of that.  I don't know, but it seems to me it's reasonable to try again.

 

Well this has been fun!  I'm getting all kinds of ideas on things to try with him, and it wasn't even my thread.  :)

[Guest]

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Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[nature girl]

I like your attitude, Cricket...And I do agree with everything you're saying, the issue with Anna is that she wants to have friends so badly, and with her quirks that's going to become more and more difficult, unless she learns how to tame them so that kids are more comfortable around her. Right now they tolerate her, they'll play with her, but they don't seek her out. I don't care how adults feel about her (well, I care, I want them to think she's as wonderful as I do, but if they don't like her then to hell with them...) but that she doesn't have a best friend, doesn't get invited on play dates, is painful, and it'll only get more painful as she gets older.

 

I liked the Ros Blackburn article...the bit about not understanding why it's acceptable for foreigners to make unrecognizable sounds made me smile...

 

Re: the discipline, I realized as behavior started to get worse last year that we needed to be more strict with her. That's not my or my husband's personality, we're both very laid back and so weren't good about reinforcing with consequences. We tried to reinforce by talking things out (ha!) and to do all of our discipline using our pom pom system, and although it's worked to some extent I realized a few months ago we needed to be more strict and more specific. Being very specific about what's expected, and what will be given/taken if rules aren't followed has made a difference. It's still very much a work in progress, though. And especially with her impulsivity, we have to be very specific about expected behavior and often have to give a warning before she does what she should.

 

 

[Guest]

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Edited February 11, 2016 by Guest

[nature girl]

Thank you, Cricket.

 

I think what's been getting to me is everything I've read about ADHD kids having problems throughout their lives making and maintaining friendships (not to mention the bullying...), having successful marriages, even having successful relationships with their own children. Knowing what an extrovert Anna is, that she's happiest around other kids, NEEDS friends, but she isn't self-reflective enough to understand why they might be avoiding her and try to conform. There's a difference between socialization issues in ASD and ADHD kids, Anna's not analytical enough to imitate socially appropriate behavior, and has such strong emotions and such impulsivity that she just can't control them in socially acceptable ways, whether that emotion is intense love/joy/happiness or anger/frustration...it all comes out, and now she's at an age where the other kids are starting to look at those reactions as "weird." I don't know if she'll eventually be able to modulate better, we're certainly working on it. But some people never do, even in adulthood.

 

I don't have any doubt that she has great potential, once she finds her passion(s) she's going to be amazingly successful in following them. I just want her to be continue being this happy spirit as she grows up, I don't want her to ever feel like there's anything wrong with her, that she's unlikable or broken or undeserving in any way. Her self-esteem is so delicate already, no matter how much I praise. So I worry.

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