Big Picture or Skills Focused?

[Paige]

I'm considering switching my elementary and middle school kids to a more seminar type of class structure. I'm thinking of something along the lines of my graduate school classes where we have assigned readings, discussions, and writing assignments for all subjects (not math). I would not be doing much lecture because I know they won't listen. With science, there would be activities required as well. I don't know if I would be expecting too much of them, however. They are 8-11. The younger one would have significant help with the reading and writing from me, but the olders would be expected to be a little more independent. Skills would be reinforced through their writing assignments and as they do them rather than filling in blanks and practicing the skill for its own sake.

 

I am thinking of switching to this style because I feel the kids are not as independent as I was or as I'd like them to be for their age and they really don't have much going on in the thinking and big questions department. I want them to learn to think, to learn to be interested in things, and to learn to have confidence in their ability to think well. I'm finding that none of that is happening to my satisfaction. 

 

We have mostly been doing more specifically skills based work and worksheets. This was not my ideal but what I moved towards because the olders had trouble and were behind in most areas when they were younger. They needed lots of practice and repetition and. They were learning to read for a long time, they hated listening to read alouds, and the sit on the couch school style was a bomb. They loved worksheets, cut and paste, multiple choice, and easy fill in the blank school. 

 

I'm finding that my kids are very unlike myself as a child/teen and what I'd have enjoyed or done well with usually falls flat with them, so I want a reality check from other moms. I was considered a highly gifted child, and my DH says my expectations for them are too high. I've checked with my parents and I'm not misremembering or exaggerating what I was capable of as a child. I would have loved a seminar type class. Is the thinking I'm hoping to get out of them not appropriate for their ages? I want to teach the kids I have, but I also want the kids I have to be full of ideas and questions. I don't think they enjoy learning and never have, and it saddens me for them. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Opinions will differ on this, but kids in school aren't exactly independent.  They are in a room filled with other people and a teacher who keeps on top of them at least during the school day.  How is that really independent?

 

I am not sure how well that will work out with kids that young, but then I've never tried it.  And I don't know your kids.

 

 

[Arcadia]

It is not age, it is personality and also interest.

 

Some kids are born asking why to anything and everything. Some kids are just independent learners at a younger age.

 

There are things I don't enjoy learning and I'm sure that is normal.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes.  I have one kid who would probably thrive with this method. The other no way.  He just can't handle open ended at the moment.  He is only 10 though. 

 

 

[Paige]

I'm not talking about independent as far as activities, but thinking. I want them to think for themselves instead of just wanting me to tell them what to think, kwim? Are they too young? I think the 8yr old could be too young, but we could encourage her and bring her along with us. My older son was always thinking for himself.

 

This is what I'm picturing: I give them a syllabus and say that we meet 2x a week for most subjects and 1x for a couple subjects like art/current events for approximately 1 hour. I will consolidate their subjects so that it would approximate 4-5 subjects (12-15hrs; like college). They will have required readings to be prepared to discuss at the table with everyone during the meeting times. They will have written assignments due for each subject but not each subject every week, and a grading rubric based on the assignment and their grade or level. The syllabus will have the reading schedule and written assignments w/ due dates. I will help them with their papers until the due date as far as revisions and content, giving more help to the younger. I picture myself reading alongside the younger and helping her through every assignment completely at her side but hopefully she'll learn to contribute her own thoughts at the table. The older ones would probably read on their own but I expect to review their writing every day, sitting beside them as needed. They are 6th grade and almost 12. Is that a fantasy for kids their ages who aren't particularly academically oriented or gifted? I would keep them happy with tea and treats at the table during the meeting times. I have no idea what I'd do with grades to make it meaningful to them. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by Paige

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm not talking about independent as far as activities, but thinking. I want them to think for themselves instead of just wanting me to tell them what to think, kwim? Are they too young? I think the 8yr old could be too young, but we could encourage her and bring her along with us. My older son was always thinking for himself.

 

This is what I'm picturing: I give them a syllabus and say that we meet 2x a week for most subjects and 1x for a couple subjects like art/current events for approximately 1 hour. I will consolidate their subjects so that it would approximate 4-5 subjects (12-15hrs; like college). They will have required readings to be prepared to discuss at the table with everyone during the meeting times. They will have written assignments due for each subject but not each subject every week, and a grading rubric based on the assignment and their grade or level. The syllabus will have the reading schedule and written assignments w/ due dates. I will help them with their papers until the due date as far as revisions and content, giving more help to the younger. I picture myself reading alongside the younger and helping her through every assignment completely at her side but hopefully she'll learn to contribute her own thoughts at the table. The older ones would probably read on their own but I expect to review their writing every day, sitting beside them as needed. They are 6th grade and almost 12. Is that a fantasy for kids their ages who aren't particularly academically oriented or gifted? I would keep them happy with tea and treats at the table during the meeting times. I have no idea what I'd do with grades to make it meaningful to them. 

 

Yes I actually think they are probably too young. 

 

And think about how we develop our own viewpoints and "thinking for ourselves".  We spend years learning and reading and doing and being instructed.  I think you can incorporate some of your ideas into their studies, but I don't know that you can expect kids that age to function in the set up of a graduate program.  Heck, there are adults who have a hard time with this! 

 

My older kid is almost 14.  He is more independent these days, but I still must keep on top of him.  He is still not quite able to be left up to his own devices for meeting deadlines, etc.  I still need to remind him and check in with him regularly.  I started off somewhat with the idea you have here.  What ended up happening is he just waited until the last minute to do the work.  Right before the deadline.  And so it was often rushed and sloppy and he'd run out of time.  I had to be more specific than that. 

[Another Lynn]

Imho, I think they're probably too young.  If they were ready for that, I think you would see them doing it naturally on their own by exploring and asking questions, etc. 

 

As far as skills focus vs. big picture, I think it's good to have both.  Keep working on skills, but also use materials (whether read alouds, audio recordings, videos, etc.) that introduce them to bigger picture ideas - analysis, not just facts.  Additionally, use materials that will offer more than one point of view. 

[abba12]

I've got the same problem as you, I was gifted and struggle with expecting too much. I would have LOVED the class you describe at the ages you mention! But I suspect many neurotypical kids would not.

 

I think the 11yo may well be capable of it, but the 8yo is probably a bit young yet. I plan to begin doing science/history similarly to how you've described starting in middle school, so 11yo. I have thoughts of weekly meetings for the content subjects with readings and reports from middle school. However, my girls all appear to be, perhaps not gifted, but bright. These expectations would be a little different again, going up to perhaps 13, if they were neurotypical kids. 

 

Having said that, you say you're not going to throw them in the deep end, you expect to do the work side by side with the 8yo and help the 11yo at least to begin with. So, I don't see any harm in trying. Give it a go for a semester, and if it fails, go back to a program next year. Or perhaps it succeeds, and the kids are being underestimated. I don't think it would HURT to try, so, give it a go!

[EmilyGF]

I don't think my kids (7, 9, 10) could do something like that. They'd feel lonely, for one thing. 

 

However, I do think that a more Charlotte Mason approach might help. Here's what that looks like in my home.

 

Every day, the kids have about 3 readings in content subjects. Some are at grade level; those they read on their own. Some are above grade level; those they listen to as a read aloud, usually from librovox or Audible, while following along. This exposes them to the correct pronunciation and sentence phrasing. For this to work, the work has to be enough above their heads that they do need both audio and visual to get it.

Next, they narrate. Every single reading. They write one written narration per day which is generally along the lines of "Tell it back" or "Tel what you remember" or "What was most important?" but can become more complex as they grow up. For my kids, this is usually 2 sides of a paper, skipping lines, or 3 sides of a paper. They will soon transition to typing. I do not make them revise them currently, though I probably will start having them revise one per week next semester. The other narrations are oral. At the end of the narrations I might ask a question like, "What do you think about that person's actions?" or "Which person was right?" or "Was that leader right to do that?" Sometimes my kids will have questions or be really upset by something and we'll have a discussion. If they ask questions first, I often say, "Tell me what you think about that?" before offering my opinion. It is neat when we can make connections like, "Compare the pilgrims' interactions with the Native Americans with those of the settlers in Virginia."

 

While all this is teaching writing, it is also providing a scaffold for thinking skills, which is what I think you're concerned about workbooks lacking. The child is basically asking himself a bunch of questions in his head in order to answer them and provide a complete narration. 

 

Most modern day Charlotte Mason books really lack the rigor that was truly part of her curriculum, so don't let them turn you off. Good narration is really hard; try reading a multi-page Economist article and narrating it back. It is a learned skill. This is a learned skill, so with hard books like The Tempest, my kids were narrating every 5 minutes. For easier books, like a Landmark history book, they narrate every chapter. My 7-year-old narrates every 4 pages or so. Charlotte Mason advocated having many books but reading them very slowly, at the pace of a chapter or two per week, so that kids have a chance to marinate in the ideas. I am finding this works really really well for my kids.

 

So, I think there is a middle road between extreme big picture and minute skills.

Emily

[ondreeuh]

I think that kind of loose structure would require a lot of scaffolding to get to. High school, sure, some kids could do that. But many couldn't even in 9th, and your kids are significantly younger.

 

You  might look at descriptions of "flipped classrooms" which have the student read through new material independently before discussing in class. The idea is that class time is used for higher-level discussion instead of teaching the basics. That is pretty much what we do, and it works well - but we evolved to this. My son was not ready at 5th grade at all. Over 6th & 7th he got more able to learn independently, and now he's pretty great at it.

 

Here's what our version of the "flipped classroom" looks like. DS has reading assignments each day and for some subjects has questions to answer, which he does in a notebook. I read everything he reads for history, literature, and science the night before, and I work with my youngest while older DS does his reading and assignments in the morning. After my DS finishes his independent work (and while my younger one takes a break) we meet to discuss. We use Bookshark for history, which has several open-ended questions and I add my own: what do you think it would have been like if X happened instead? What are the similarities or differences between X & Y? How does this remind you of that book we read? What's a current issue that is unfolding similar to the way this one did? We use Moving Beyond the Page for literature and I'm not satisfied with the level of analysis in the 12-14 level, so I supplement with questions from other sources. He does not get those questions ahead of time so he has to think on the spot.

 

For science, I have him explain things back to me - I make sure he understands the vocabulary, key ideas, and how the ideas interrelate. I give him more examples and sometimes we do an activity or experiment. For math - he doesn't come to me for help unless he is stuck, but I grade his work before the school day is over and go over any concepts he had trouble with. Sometimes I print off additional examples or help him with a mnemonic.

 

Grammar and writing are two things that I pre-teach out of necessity.

 

 

[MerryAtHope]

I did daily meeting times with my kids throughout high school. They needed the daily accountability, even when they were ready to study and learn independently. Sometimes by high school there were subjects (like history or literature) that we didn't discuss daily, but I always checked in to see how their reading was going (and they took daily notes for history, so I could read what they understood, even if we didn't discuss. Often what I chose to discuss was to delve deeper into something they mentioned in their notes). 

 

At the ages of your kids, they should be telling you some things they think, either through narrations, discussions you have as you read aloud, occasional writing assignments, and questions that you ask. However, they still need a lot of your input. They don't have the life experience to come up with all the various issues that can be at play. Sometimes you can guide them there through questions, and sometimes you may need to remind them of connections. For you, the connections may seem obvious, but for them, they may barely have a shaky hook that they are trying to hang the tiniest bit of info on--they aren't ready to take that knowledge and build on it necessarily. In the logic stage, they are beginning to be ready but still need a lot of guidance and direction, and even at the rhetoric stage I think you'll find that you can deepen their understanding and/or lead them to more well-rounded conclusions.

 

I think you are on the right path in your thinking--this is where you want to help your students get to--but they likely need more scaffolding along the way, or more ladder rungs to make the jump in elevation that you are going for.

[Kat w]

IMO. At this age...they need to be filmed with facts.

 

In the middle school age they start to be able to comprehend and question naturally.

 

I personally would not do this.

Elementary they get the facts.

Middle and h.s. they can start to discern those facts and form their own opinions.

 

I let mine firm their own...after having all the facts.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Have you read the well trained mind?

 

Just a suggestion