Proposed New College Application for Class of 2021

[snowbeltmom]

I think this is a terrible idea.  The college application process is stressful enough.  If this application becomes a reality, kids applying to colleges in this coalition  will have to start documenting their lives beginning in 9th grade, so they will have a portfolio to present to the admission committees.  From reading the article, I don't know if the Class of 2021 is the high school class of 2021 or the college class of 2021.  If it is the latter, just shoot me now. :svengo:

 

The Coalition for Access, Affordability and Success, a new organization led by admissions deans at top campuses, has announced an ambitious goal: to make applications more reflective and in tune with how students organize and express themselves. In April, it will offer free online planning tools and in July a new application, for the class of 2021.

Continue reading the main story  

• OCT. 26, 2015

With the Common Application now used by more than 625 schools, the coalition is marketing itself as a high-integrity brand. Coalition members must have a six-year graduation rate of at least 70 percent and meet students’ full financial need or, if public, offer “affordable†in-state tuition (as yet undefined). So far, more than 80 of about 140 eligible colleges and universities have signed on, including all the Ivys, liberal arts elites like Amherst and Bowdoin and publics like Texas A&M and Miami University of Ohio.

The coalition wants students as young as ninth grade to engage with its college planner. They will be able to upload videos, photos and written work to a portfolio, called a virtual college locker

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/education/edlife/can-a-new-coalition-of-elite-schools-reshape-college-admissions.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

[Mom22ns]

"And some criticism has gone to the very heart of the program: that drawing 14-year-olds into admissions tasks will make a stressful process more so."

 

Uh, yeah.

 

I kept records starting in 9th grade to make college applications easy, and it was very worth it. I have lists of activities, class descriptions, volunteering... you name it. However, my KIDS were not even vaguely interested in keeping a diary of information for college admissions. If that becomes the standard, well ugh. Late blooming kids will be left in the dust. Kids who prefer to have a life than focus on a potential future life, will be in trouble too. I had one of each. Neither would have faired well with that type of system unless I did it for them and I didn't need something else to do.

[Arcadia]

this thread http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/565021-new-common-app-alternative-online-portfolios-from-9th-grade-onwards/

 

My 6th grader would be the high school class of 2022 and one of his favorite is in the coalition list :P

[snowbeltmom]

this thread http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/565021-new-common-app-alternative-online-portfolios-from-9th-grade-onwards/

 

My 6th grader would be the high school class of 2022 and one of his favorite is in the coalition list :p

Thanks for the link - I never saw that thread.  For purely selfish reasons, I hope this rollout is schedule for the high school class of 2021, but the article says it will be rolled out in April.  Maybe the rollout will be for the middle school kids to begin putting stuff in their "lockers" and communicating with admissions. :ack2:

[Arcadia]

 I hope this rollout is schedule for the high school class of 2021, but the article says it will be rolled out in April.

 

If the rollout is in April 2016, then the high school class of 2021 would be finishing 7th grade.  That would make sense as they need to plan for high school courses while in 8th grade.  I think my local schools does placement exams for high school in the spring for current 8th graders.

[TravelingChris]

This would have worked horribly for my now college freshman.  Up until she started to take dual enrollment classes, she had a completely different idea about where she wanted to go to college.  SHe was looking at a few state universities only.  SHe ended up deciding fall of senior year that private colleges would be better for her and ended up applying to four.  SHe really had to be led to apply to a few too.  It isnt that she didn't do things that ended up on her college application but the stress was way too much for her to be applying starting in ninth grade.

[wapiti]

I just skimmed this, but I'm not sure I understand why this four-year electronic "locker" is necessary in order to implement options such as uploading electronic media that replaces an essay in a senior's application.  The two do not need to be connected.  The centralized holding of information that may not even be ultimately included in an app is not comforting.

 

I don't see how this could possibly help disadvantaged students.  Quality counseling, on the other hand...

 

Eta, I smell money in this for someone.  Subscription fees for the non-needy or something.

[FaithManor]

All I can say is that I'm glad my last is a freshman for fall 2018.

 

 

[snowbeltmom]

I just skimmed this, but I'm not sure I understand why this four-year electronic "locker" is necessary in order to implement options such as uploading electronic media that replaces an essay in a senior's application.  The two do not need to be connected.  The centralized holding of information that may not even be ultimately included in an app is not comforting.

 

I don't see how this could possibly help disadvantaged students.  Quality counseling, on the other hand...

 

Eta, I smell money in this for someone.  Subscription fees for the non-needy or something.

I am sure the college consultants will be very happy if this is implemented since families will be hiring them probably in elementary school in order to make sure the "locker" is in order by 8th grade. Also, my take from reading the article is that these kids will be in communications with the admissions offices sharing their "lockers" as early as 9th grade. I don't see how this will help low income kids, either.

[rbk mama]

Information taken from: http://www.coalitionforcollegeaccess.org/faq.html

 

â–¼ What is the online virtual locker? Who will have access to a student's locker? Will Colleges be reviewing items within the locker?

The online virtual locker offers a private space for students to collect and organize materials throughout their high school journey, similar to Google Drive or DropBox but customized for students. Whether collecting thoughts on college options or storing classwork or reflections, students can confidentially save documents that may be useful later in their college search or application. While only the student will have access to the locker, they will be able to share documents with their counselors, teachers, and mentors who can provide guidance along the way. Finally, a student may choose to attach materials from the locker to their Coalition Applications; however, colleges will not have access to nor review the locker itself.

â–¼ Will the online virtual locker be used to evaluate demonstrated interest in an institution?

No. Since colleges will not have access to any materials in a student's locker other than materials included in their college application, Coalition members will not be able to use the locker to gauge a student's interest.

â–¼ What is the Coalition Collaboration Platform?

Eventually, the locker will also become a meeting place, where counselors, teachers, and mentors can support the student’s college search and application through feedback and editing. The Collaboration Platform will also allow students and counselors to quickly contact their partners at Coalition schools, facilitating communication and eliminating confusion.

â–¼ When will the locker and Collaboration Platform be released?

The locker and Collaboration Platform will be opened to all students in April 2016. We originally planned to release it in January, but agreed to a slightly later launch date to allow for more time to answer questions, engage with counselors and students, and for counselors to be closer to finishing their work with the current senior class.

â–¼ What is the Coalition Application?

The Coalition Application is a cutting-edge tool for applying to many schools in the Coalition. The Coalition Application features a modern, intuitive interface that adapts to a student’s life, providing a seamless experience whether engaging through a notebook computer, tablet, or even mobile device. The application will be designed to minimize student stress, confusion, and intimidation while empowering universities to ask questions that will reveal students with the greatest fit for their campuses.

â–¼ When will the Coalition Application be released?

Many Coalition schools will accept applications through the portal in the summer of 2016, while others are still deciding when and how to use the application feature of the new system. Additional details about the application process enabled by the platform will be announced later.

â–¼ Will the Coalition platform change the way colleges review applications?

Beyond any changes to the application itself, there will be no change to the way colleges evaluate an applicant. The flexibility of the Coalition Application will allow colleges to ask questions that uphold the distinctiveness of their process and of their institutions, and students may be able to submit creative entries such as videos or artwork for schools that accept them. However, there are no increased expectations for students. Our hope is that students will use the Coalition tools to plan for college and to better understand and express themselves, including their unique interests and abilities.

â–¼Will there be an "admissions advantage" to using the Coalition Application over the Common Application (for those schools which use both)?

No. Just as many of these schools accept both the SAT or ACT as a way to meet their testing requirement and have no preference as to which test is used, institutions will not prefer one application system over the other.

â–¼Is there an "admissions advantage" to using the other planning tools prior to applying with either application (or disadvantage for not using them)?

No. Colleges and universities using the new application will neither expect nor require the use of other Coalition tools, either as part of the Coalition Application or other application systems accepted by that institution. The tools are solely for the benefit and convenience of the student.

 

â–¼ Is there a cost for participating in the new platform?

The Coalition platform and tools will be free for families, students, counselors, and high schools. Colleges and universities who are members pay a membership fee that is similar to what they pay to use the Common App and other application systems.

 

[Nan in Mass]

Well, that make it sound fairly innocuous, just a bit of storage space in cyberspace for students, someplace where they can save their best work with a mechanism which easily allows them to give access to the material to colleges and mentors, someplace safer than their room at home. This would bother me less, I think, if it were coming from the high schools themselves, if the high schools were switching from grades to a portfolio or some other assessment system in order to circumvent grade inflation or better assess student learning. I dislike the emphasis on college admittance. I think the emphasis should be on learning out of curiosity, learning to enrich one,s whole, hopefully long life and provide the skills needed to have a satisfying career. I think the skills needed to survive and benefit from a college education are just a part of that. My children weren,t ready to think about college that early. The whole idea horrified them because it involved leaving home. They weren,t ready to think about it even in 10th grade. I had to think about what colleges wanted as part of my high school planning, but that was my responsibility (as the school), not theirs.

I can understand why the small, selective colleges might like to use portfolios as part of their admissions process. There has been a lot of emphasis on the limitations of standardized testing recently. Some schools, both high and uni, worry about the amount of high school students' time being devoted to test prep. There has been lots of chitchat about how lucrative the testing/college app business is. Some universities have their own way of supplimenting the test scores/gpa/essay - requiring more essays or a portfolio or a resumé or work samples or a project or whatever. I can,t help suspecting that this is one business,s attempt to grab back the business they will lose if colleges shift away from the common app and standardized testing and AP courses.

This reminds me of the MCAS testing. When Massachussets began statewide standardized testing, it was sold to the public as a way to compare schools to one another. We were told over and over that the child,s scores would not be used individually. An astonishingly short time later, teachers began using MCAS scores to assess individual students and students had to pass the 10th grade MCAS in order to graduate from high school. I suspect this new documentation system of being a similar thing, the thin edge of a wedge. How long before colleges reqire students applying to their college to supply them with all the documents.

And how on earth is the overworked, underfunded staff of the poorer high schools going to help their students manage this? The college application process already is complicated enough, for most colleges, to produce a goodly gap between those students from rich schools or with college educated parents and those from poorer schools or who are navigating the process on their own. I suspect that a whole industry of private college advisors will spring up.

I don,t know. Maybe this, like the original SATs, is trying to be a better, more equitable, more universal way to assess students. Maybe it actually will be better. I wish I didn,t see so many pitfalls.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Sorry about any errors. I can,t edit.

 

I want to add that I can,t help suspecting that this new "storage " system is really a mechanism to give easy access to various private consultants, especially those provided by the storage company itself.

 

Nan

[Serenade]

If the rollout is in April 2016, then the high school class of 2021 would be finishing 7th grade.  That would make sense as they need to plan for high school courses while in 8th grade.  I think my local schools does placement exams for high school in the spring for current 8th graders.

 

 

Ugh.  Then I have one who'd have to deal with this.

 

These sorts of things are really making me not want to homeschool anymore.  I just can't keep up with all of the new high school rules and regulations.  It's all so complicated today, and I think it's a big waste of time.   I bet most of the people who come up with these things have already graduated their kids and can now look down and laugh on those of us who would have to go through these things.

[Serenade]

Sorry about any errors. I can,t edit.

 

I want to add that I can,t help suspecting that this new "storage " system is really a mechanism to give easy access to various private consultants, especially those provided by the storage company itself.

 

Nan

 

I'm sure you hit the nail on the head.

[Nan in Mass]

PPS LOL I really hope it is exactly what it says it is. It might be helpful, at least to those forward thinking, early blooming students or to those with overwhelmed guidance centers. If it truly works the way it says it will, it won,t hurt anyone else. Certainly the current system is way too unwieldy for students. I wish I weren,t so suspicious.

 

Nan

[Arcadia]

I want to add that I can't help suspecting that this new "storage " system is really a mechanism to give easy access to various private consultants, especially those provided by the storage company itself.

 

Nan

After doing online applications for programs that my kids wanted to participate in, the biggest headache was the internet bandwidth. I'm in a high bandwidth area and it was still a pain uploading work samples.

 

One of the chief headache for the common core online testing was steady/reliable internet bandwidth too.

 

Parents who seek out private consultants would do so regardless of applications systems.

 

This system may just widen the social economic divide instead of help.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think the class of 2021 may refer to the college graduating year, which would be next year's seniors.

 

There could be a lot of strength in widening who can mentor high schoolers through this process. I'm still in awe of a learning center I encountered a few years ago. It was created by a group of families who had immigrated from India or who were of Indian descent. What had started as tutoring at one temple had grown to frequent classes, AMC testing and tutoring to prep for the science magnet school exams. It impressed me as an example of what some determined families can pull off.

 

This could be a means for able and interested groups to step into the gap for kids whose school guidance offices are focused on dropouts or conduct problems.

 

It could also be a way that those with in the know families spend years prepping and curating while those with less active schools and parents fall further astern. It could open a new industry in document manufacturing similar to essay writing sites that sell pre written essays. It could attract even more fee based college advising businesses.

[snowbeltmom]

Will the online virtual locker be used to evaluate demonstrated interest in an institution?

No. Since colleges will not have access to any materials in a student's locker other than materials included in their college application, Coalition members will not be able to use the locker to gauge a student's interest.

â–¼ What is the Coalition Collaboration Platform?

Eventually, the locker will also become a meeting place, where counselors, teachers, and mentors can support the student’s college search and application through feedback and editing. The Collaboration Platform will also allow students and counselors to quickly contact their partners at Coalition schools, facilitating communication and eliminating confusion.

Maybe I am not reading the bolded correctly, but in the first bolded section, coalition members won't have access to material in the locker, while in the 2nd bolded section, the locker will become a meeting place where counselors and students can meet with Coalition schools.  Hmmm  won't the college then be able to use the locker to evaluate demonstrated interest?

 

Guidance counselors at the public schools in my neck of the woods are already overworked,.  Each guidance counselor is responsible for hundreds of students.  I can't imagine any of them being able to help a student with this locker.  This will be a job for a private counselor.  What a disaster.

 

[Arcadia]

Maybe I am not reading the bolded correctly, but in the first bolded section, coalition members won't have access to material in the locker, while in the 2nd bolded section, the locker will become a meeting place where counselors and students can meet with Coalition schools. Hmmm won't the college then be able to use the locker to evaluate demonstrated interest?

The student can choose what to share. Not sure how that would be implemented in the actual system.

 

I am thinking that it would work similar to the ACT and SAT registration forms. There is a section at the end which ask whether the student wants his/her info shared to colleges. We end up using the talent search act form which is much shorter since my kid is not in high school yet.

 

E.g.

ACT interest inventory in the ACT registration form help generate the back page

http://www.actstudent.org/scores/understand/studentreport_2.html

 

ETA:

Article on ACT Profile which allows uploading of portfolios

http://mobile.edweek.org/c.jsp?cid=25920011&item=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.edweek.org%2Fv1%2Fblogs%2F82%2F%3Fuuid%3D34616

 

ACT Profile page

https://www.act.org/profile/

[snowbeltmom]

The student can choose what to share. Not sure how that would be implemented in the actual system.

But, will the student who chooses to share his locker with the Coalition beginning in 9th grade have an advantage over the student who doesn't even have college on his radar in 9th grade? My gut reaction is that , yes, the student who creates a locker in 9th grade and regularly communicates with the coalition guy at the colleges on his list will have an advantage over the student who waits until senior year to begin his application

 

Obviously, a family can choose not to play this game, but I fail to see how this new coalition is going to help low income or rural students..

[Nan in Mass]

But, will the student who chooses to share his locker with the Coalition beginning in 9th grade have an advantage over the student who doesn't even have college on his radar in 9th grade? My gut reaction is that , yes, the student who creates a locker in 9th grade and regularly communicates with the coalition guy at the colleges on his list will have an advantage over the student who waits until senior year to begin his application

 

Obviously, a family can choose not to play this game, but I fail to see how this new coalition is going to help low income or rural students..

 

I worry about that as well, but in all fairness, the current system contains many colleges who apparently manage to do something similar.  And if I read the literature correctly, the Coalition says no.

 

Currently, many colleges say things like SAT2s are optional.  When we asked if having them would make youngest a stronger candidate, we were told, "Don't take them for our sake".  That is information which could have been useful in assessing the academic capabilities of students which a reasonably selective college chose to ignore.  There are colleges which don't require essays.  One tech school that my son applied to had a short form for students who demonstrated interest.  They assessed my son with a transcript, his SAT scores, and I can't remember whether he had to send his essay or not.  Anyway, many other assessment tools were ignored.

 

For a student who does not test well, deliberately collecting pieces of work for a portfolio all through high school might be the right thing to do.  I don't know.

 

I still don't like the idea, because I don't see how "abuse" of the system is going to be avoided, but perhaps it does really mean that some colleges are trying to do something about the poor current system.  You probably have to have a pretty good stream of suitable applicants to be brave enough to give up something like the common app, I guess.  Some schools have no problem doing that.  We found some of the most prestigious schools and the unknown local schools both ignored the common app.  That left a lot of schools in between scrabbling for applicants.  Perhaps the Coalition really is trying to find practical ways of bucking the current system, banding together for safety.  These might be the schools that are already asking the students for more than just their transcript and test scores, the ones who have extra essays or ask for projects.

 

And then there are places like Bard and Olin.  They have their own way of assessing students.

 

I wonder what is included in the Coalition application?  Do we know?

 

Nan

 

Nan

[Arcadia]

For purely selfish reasons, I hope this rollout is schedule for the high school class of 2021, but the article says it will be rolled out in April.

Looks like it is for the high school graduating class of 2017. So current 11th graders would be the guinea pigs.

 

"Starting in 2016, high school students seeking admission to Stanford will have two ways to apply online: the current Common Application and the new "Coalition Application" created by the new Coalition for Access, Affordability, and Success.

...

Prospective Stanford students will be able to use the new application to apply for admission for fall 2017, said Richard H. Shaw, dean of admission and financial aid."

 

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/october/new-coalition-application-100115.html

[Nan in Mass]

Another thought - It used to be that the application fee and the bother of filling out the application by hand and the embarrassment of asking recommenders for multiple copies of recommendations kept most students from applying to large numbers of colleges. Colleges could make a reasonable guess at how many applicants would turn down their offer of a seat and make an appropriate number of offers. Now, with the "ease" of applying to multiple schools using the common app, colleges ate having trouble guessing which applicants really want to come and are winding up with a freshman class that is too big or too small. That might explain part of the emphasis on helping those who display early interest in the Coalition literature.

 

Nan

[FaithManor]

Sorry about any errors. I can,t edit.

 

I want to add that I can,t help suspecting that this new "storage " system is really a mechanism to give easy access to various private consultants, especially those provided by the storage company itself.

 

Nan

Oh yes, many private consultants, big hopes, no guarantees, lots of money made, and attempting to convince students and parents that everyone needs a college admission consultant in order to navigate the process successfully.

 

Sigh...always follow the scent of money!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Looks like it is for the high school graduating class of 2017. So current 11th graders would be the guinea pigs.

 

"Starting in 2016, high school students seeking admission to Stanford will have two ways to apply online: the current Common Application and the new "Coalition Application" created by the new Coalition for Access, Affordability, and Success.

...

Prospective Stanford students will be able to use the new application to apply for admission for fall 2017, said Richard H. Shaw, dean of admission and financial aid."

 

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/october/new-coalition-application-100115.html

It occurs to me that colleges pay Common App for their work in processing applications. I don't know if this is a flat fee or based on some other figure like the number of applications. If a large number of applications go through the Coalition App instead that might save enough money to pay for a lot of the new application structure.

 

There will also be an effect of tiering schools. Those who are signing on to the new Coalition have to committ to meeting student need (ie have good endowments) and have high graduation rates.

 

If a student has invested time and energy in the Coalition app because they hope for Stanford and Georgetown, they may be reluctand to also do Common App for their match and safety school applications. Which might make them more likely to apply to schools in the coalition. It could even affect rankings if there is a significant shift in where higher stat students apply.

 

I think that this could be a benefit for individual students who are far from centers of college recruiting but who are strong applicants. For example Faith's rocketry teams. The key will be knowing about it and having guidance about what to submit and what to do with the information.

 

The divide I see isn't neatly on income levels. It is students who live and study in places where guidance is sparse or focused on potential dropouts more than potential selective college students, where football is fully supported but physics isn't offered, where public libraries don't have current books on colleges, AP exams or SAT/ACT and where families are either in chaos or working so much that they cannot spare time for encouraging their kids' big dreams. I think these conditions occur more often in lower income communities and families.

 

It is lossible that the new app will create a space for non-education professionals to step in and help with mentoring. What I'm not sold on is that this longer term app process will benefit the under served student as much as the kids with two educated professional parents. I wonder if this will mostly let the extroverted, hard charging, academic product producing students spend four years packaging their super apps. How does a student who does school and a long term job to help his family put that in a cyber locker?

[Nan in Mass]

Yup. The elite colleges want early blooming, ambitious, lively students. This lets them spot those students early on MUCH more easily. And recruit them. And make sure that those particular students aren,t eliminated from the pool of acceptances due to something missing from their application. I,m fairly sure those colleges do genuinely want at least some diversity. The colleges also can try to make sure those students arrive properly prepared. For example, they can encourage them to take that calculus course senior year rather than statistics. I can see how this might be a win/win situation for some special students and some special colleges. I just am not convinced that it will benefit the more ordinary students, the ones whose lives contain a lot more than high school and who are doing something smaller and more personal than contributing to the world as a whole.

 

I think this would be a disadvantage for my particular late bloomers. When they were trying to save the world, they had no energy left over to produce anything concrete for a portfolio. They were too insignificant in the effort to receive any sort of official recognition and the effort was too large to have any effect within the time frame of needed for their college applications. One of them concentrated on saving his friends rather than the world. That didn,t exactly produce anything for a portfolio, either. All three refused to write about their experiences in the standard college essay introspective sort of way. I think they felt that it was wrong to showcase the experience for their own benefit and there were privacy issues. Their academics didn,t ramp up until the end of high school, although all three had college credits when they began university. A regular application deemphasizes the time frame and focuses on the student,s experiences. The Coalition application sounds like it would focus on output. In a way, that seems right to me, but I know that it would be a problem for my children. Of course, I could be wrong. I haven,t seen the new application. I certainly complained enough about the structure of the common app when we were using it and we circumvented it, more or less.the colleges my children cared about had their own apps or added a number of things to their apps which allowed my children to show their experiences, although they followed a pretty standard format.

 

It is interesting to think about.

 

Nan

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I've mentioned it before, maybe here, but the current college app process reminds me of the way Puritans wanted a well explained conversions experience before they would make someone a full church member. Selectve Colleges don't want just want smart student or even students who are active but also people who write a slam poetry worth essay that introspectively considers the experience. Or they want students that meet exotic boxes. Like Pokemon collectors they want kids with hooks but don't want to duplicate too much.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I've mentioned it before, maybe here, but the current college app process reminds me of the way Puritans wanted a well explained conversions experience before they would make someone a full church member. Selectve Colleges don't want just want smart student or even students who are active but also people who write a slam poetry worth essay that introspectively considers the experience. Or they want students that meet exotic boxes. Like Pokemon collectors they want kids with hooks but don't want to duplicate too much.

 

I'm not sure the digital locker/portfolio process will level the playing field.  I think it will make it even easier for them to find those unique kids but guarantee they do not enroll too many duplicates.  

 

I'm not sure telling a freshman that by the end of the year they must produce an item worthy of representing themselves to a college admissions committee is going to foster a positive learning environment.  I can imagine situations where courses will now not only teach to the test but also arrange assignments to create portfolio worthy items rather than learning experiences. Admission to highly selective schools no longer depends on having good test scores and good grades but having products worthy of review from the moment you enter high school.  No good projects or papers freshman year--then you can kiss the ivies goodbye.  It depresses me that such a system doesn't allow for the maturity a student gains personally and academically over those four years in high school. 

 

And if schools currently claim they don't have time to read more than one letter of recommendation or essays longer than 650 (or fewer) words--where are they going to get the time to read an entire portfolio?

[Nan in Mass]

We may complain about grade inflation, but at least it allows teachers to grade students based on progress made or developmental average or some standard other than adult level results. On the other hand, our current grading system often doesn,t allow students to attempt something risky. Maybe standardized testing balances that out, at least for those who aren,t headed for a school where they don,t need straight As and near-800s to be considered.

 

Sebastion - When youngest was struggling to write his CA essay (the other ones weren,t required to be introspective), he complained that the system was flawed because even tech schools have their admissions departments staffed with people-people, and with the result that STEM students are being judged by liberal arts majors based on irrelevent, silly, liberal artsy essays. We laugh about it now, but at the time, it was not at all funny. We can,t be the only ones to notice this paradox. Maybe a portfolio built over the course of a number of years would allow STEM oriented students to provide something more meaningful than an introspective essay? I think for this to be anything like remotely fair, though, highschools would have to provide more opportunities for STEM students, opportunities like the sports opportunities that students are currently generally provided. And maybe that is where the mentoring comes in, as a way to circumvent the high schools, many of whom are not doing a good job these days of providing appropriately rich experiences. Or helping students things to do in the community.

 

I keep coming back to the idea that this would might be a good thing if it were done right, and that I can,t blame colleges for wanting to try, considering their complaints about how badly highschools are preparing students for college, but that I doubt it is going to work as the original planners envisioned.

 

Nan

[Sebastian (a lady)]

We may complain about grade inflation, but at least it allows teachers to grade students based on progress made or developmental average or some standard other than adult level results. On the other hand, our current grading system often doesn,t allow students to attempt something risky. Maybe standardized testing balances that out, at least for those who aren,t headed for a school where they don,t need straight As and near-800s to be considered.

 

Sebastion - When youngest was struggling to write his CA essay (the other ones weren,t required to be introspective), he complained that the system was flawed because even tech schools have their admissions departments staffed with people-people, and with the result that STEM students are being judged by liberal arts majors based on irrelevent, silly, liberal artsy essays. We laugh about it now, but at the time, it was not at all funny. We can,t be the only ones to notice this paradox. Maybe a portfolio built over the course of a number of years would allow STEM oriented students to provide something more meaningful than an introspective essay? I think for this to be anything like remotely fair, though, highschools would have to provide more opportunities for STEM students, opportunities like the sports opportunities that students are currently generally provided. And maybe that is where the mentoring comes in, as a way to circumvent the high schools, many of whom are not doing a good job these days of providing appropriately rich experiences. Or helping students things to do in the community.

 

I keep coming back to the idea that this would might be a good thing if it were done right, and that I can,t blame colleges for wanting to try, considering their complaints about how badly highschools are preparing students for college, but that I doubt it is going to work as the original planners envisioned.

 

Nan

It would be interesting if the person reviewing had a background to assess what is submitted.

DS 2 wrote a couple long research papers last year. One was on the difference between the Westphalian and Confucian models of diplomacy and how Japan had used a model tha differed from both of these. I think many admissions reps would not be in a position to critique something like this except from the point of view of rhetoric and clarity.

 

On the STEM project question one concern I have is that STEM projects and teams can be very expensive. There are homeschoolers doing FIRST Tech Challenge here but their coach told me that FIRST Robotics was just too expensive for equipment. I considered trying to start a SeaPerch team but was daunted by the prospect of spending several hundred dollars. Even FLL is several hundred to get started.

 

How do you judge the potential of a kid who tinkers with what he finds in the garage vs one who is on several school based teams throughout school?

 

I have a lot of questions. I don't know that I have a great solution.

[Nan in Mass]

It would be interesting if the person reviewing had a background to assess what is submitted.

DS 2 wrote a couple long research papers last year. One was on the difference between the Westphalian and Confucian models of diplomacy and how Japan had used a model tha differed from both of these. I think many admissions reps would not be in a position to critique something like this except from the point of view of rhetoric and clarity.

 

On the STEM project question one concern I have is that STEM projects and teams can be very expensive. There are homeschoolers doing FIRST Tech Challenge here but their coach told me that FIRST Robotics was just too expensive for equipment. I considered trying to start a SeaPerch team but was daunted by the prospect of spending several hundred dollars. Even FLL is several hundred to get started.

 

How do you judge the potential of a kid who tinkers with what he finds in the garage vs one who is on several school based teams throughout school?

 

I have a lot of questions. I don't know that I have a great solution.

 

I'd like to see that paper.  We've often commented on how group decision making varies between our Japanese friends and our American friends (and our Native American friends).

 

I agree about the problems of assessing portfolios.  I was thinking that time would be a problem, but that is only the beginning.

 

All my children's schools have wanted students who could work with their hands.  They asked at the interview, had an application section which asked about experience in the things they were interested in, like sea scouts or robotics club, and one asked for a description and photos or other evidence of something the student was proud of and thought was indicative of his abilities.  The tinkerer could upload before and after photos of things he had tinkered with.  We taught youngest to keep an engineering notebook.  All of ours had nature journals.  Two had lab notebooks in which they recorded whatever they were currently experimenting with in a more informal way than a lab report.  Pages of those could have been uploaded, if anyone had wanted to see them.  We xeroxed pages for our school system, who wanted work samples as part of our homeschooling assessment.  It does require that somebody take the time to show the tinkerers how to document their tinkering, and the tinkerer has to take the time to document it. Both of which, I suppose, could be done by those mentors or counselors that the Coalition mentioned.  For a price, probably...

 

Nan

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'd like to see that paper.  We've often commented on how group decision making varies between our Japanese friends and our American friends (and our Native American friends).

 

I agree about the problems of assessing portfolios.  I was thinking that time would be a problem, but that is only the beginning.

 

All my children's schools have wanted students who could work with their hands.  They asked at the interview, had an application section which asked about experience in the things they were interested in, like sea scouts or robotics club, and one asked for a description and photos or other evidence of something the student was proud of and thought was indicative of his abilities.  The tinkerer could upload before and after photos of things he had tinkered with.  We taught youngest to keep an engineering notebook.  All of ours had nature journals.  Two had lab notebooks in which they recorded whatever they were currently experimenting with in a more informal way than a lab report.  Pages of those could have been uploaded, if anyone had wanted to see them.  We xeroxed pages for our school system, who wanted work samples as part of our homeschooling assessment.  It does require that somebody take the time to show the tinkerers how to document their tinkering, and the tinkerer has to take the time to document it. Both of which, I suppose, could be done by those mentors or counselors that the Coalition mentioned.  For a price, probably...

 

Nan

 

This is an area where I didn't do well with my older kids.  I need to be far better at it with my youngest.  He is my kid who is least likely to want to write a novel in NaNoWriMo, but who was in the garden trying to do a graft on a pepper plant.  I think he is a great wonderer and experimenter, but I haven't mastered helping him document these ideas and adventures in testing and retesting ideas.

 

(I will say that Mark Watney in The Martian is a huge hero at our house.  Mad botany skills.)

 

I am hoping that the Coalition keeps open a door for lots of mentors.  I'd like to see people like the amazingly energetic woman who runs science classes and teams out of her garage also be able to mentor kids through documenting what they are doing.

 

Heck, I'm looking for what I will do in a few years when my last kid is no longer learning at the kitchen table.  

 

I'm not inherently opposed to the idea of counselors and mentors being compensated.  I am concerned that $10,000 will buy a well packaged locker and that the kid who only had the time or understanding to put in a few items will be considered a less worthy potential student.

 

On the other hand, as the discussion about failures in On-line classes points out, you have to be willing to do the work.  I don't love the idea of college application packaging being a major part of 9-10th grade.  But there are also plenty of students who float through high school, don't master high school level work, but assume that college is the next obvious step.

[Nan in Mass]

Sebastian, I really struggled with teaching documentation of experiments, too.  I was pretty upset when my husband finally noticed what I was doing and said part of his job was to teach young engineers and interns to write and document experiments.  Ug ug ug.  He helped me to figure out which parts of the standard experiment apply to which types of experiments.  Many of experiments are just exploratory.  My head told me that real scientists must work that way, but science classes didn't teach it and nothing I could find explained how to write that sort of thing up except just as a loose journal entry, which wasn't helpful.  I also had to detangle the differences between a lab notebook, a lab report, and a scientific paper.  Again, I thought there must be differences, but I couldn't find it described anywhere.  And then there is the problem of the statistics that play such an important role is real experiment design.  I didn't know anything about it, other than to know they were important for determining the validity of your results, and although I researched it some, I couldn't get my youngest interested in getting that far into it.  In the end, we settled for making sure his significant digits were correct and that he did a few repetitions, when it was possible.  Most of what he was doing was pretty exploratory, anyway.  He was more interested in inventing things than in testing things, so we got away with it.  It was one of the things that worried me most about homeschooling him for high school, though.  I would even have sent him to school over the issue if I hadn't known that school wouldn't have taught him what he needed to know, anyway, other than some of that statistics.  I settled for having him take cc science classes, in the hope that that would fill any holes.  Anyway, you have my great sympathy.

 

Nan

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I thought this was a good critique of the proposed new app.