College class for box checking-online or CC?

[Dmmetler]

DD's mentor has suggested that it's time that DD goes ahead and takes a college general bio course-mostly so she has checked the prerequisites needed to do the Maymesters and other short research-based field courses. Specifically, there's a course on turtles this year that is a real possibility if she can just check the boxes, with a faculty member who would be more than happy to let her take the class if the university he's at will allow it. Even if it doesn't happen this year (and I don't know if she'd be able to get admitted even to do DE for January since she won't take the SAT until November) it would be nice to have the boxes checked.

 

Looking locally, we have two options. Both use the same basic textbook ("baby" Campbell), both rely heavily on coursework and computer graded/done assessments from the textbook company, and it it quite possible that both would have the same instructor. Either would have a fairly heavy reading load, but little novel content, and are not math intensive. One is a traditional, 3 credit hours, MWF lecture class at a community college. The other is online except for midterm and final, through a state University. Both are non-lab except for stuff done through digital coursework. It is not expected that this would replace taking a "real" majors bio class later-only check the "bio 1000 or 1300" box.

 

I'm inclined to go with online since DD has done online classes, is comfortable in them, and it would be more flexible (a 3x/week courses would really tie up a big chunk of her schedule, where we're used to having some days where school can be done 100% in the car to get to research opportunities) but I'm wondering if the value of a live classroom would outweigh that?

[quark]

Every environment is going to be different. In the case of DS's CC, I probably wouldn't worry about doing a live classroom environment for a conceptual, no-lab science class if it meant too much inconvenience getting there and back (we don't have that issue though). I would probably weigh it against how good an instructor he gets first (rate my professors) but instructors can also be reached during office hours (once a week active discussion office hours one on one with professor might be more convenient and fruitful than a 3x a week, low participation live classroom?).

[Dmmetler]

That's one reason why I'm leaning to an online class as well. One thing that has distinguished DD is that she's so into the classes and the topics-but the stuff she's audited and attended tends to be elective, special topics courses or research talks at conferences or by guest speakers. Usually the speakers are enthusiastic about their topics, and no one is present who doesn't truly want to hear what is being said (well, except maybe for me). I'm guessing that a general studies course may not have that level of enthusiasm and active discussion and may frustrate her a bit, especially since she has gone through most of the typical general bio topics already, just not for college credit.

 

She can get lots of help if she needs it, even beyond what is available on campus. I'm guessing 3/4 of her e-mail box and phone contacts list have taught general biology (or at least TA'd it) and would be glad to answer questions.

[Arcadia]

Online because DS10 gets frustrated with being in class with other kids who are "seat warmers". He is polite enough to not show it but it spoils his mood for the next few hours.

[Luckymama]

I vote for the online choice as well. Dd cried on my shoulder last night about fellow students who aren't excited/enthusiastic/capable in her in-person (university) language class.

[KarenNC]

Since it is purely for box-checking, does the university accept CLEP testing as a transfer for bio? https://clep.collegeboard.org/exam/biology

 

My daughter (who is *not* science-oriented) was able to get a decent score this past summer after an honors high school bio class and a little prep with an REA bio CLEP prep book (also look at www.free-clep-prep.com). This translates into a "Principles of Biology" class at a number of local universities and colleges.

 

We're looking to do several CLEP tests to box-check some of the requirements in the local dual enrollment program (students have to complete a specific series of classes to move on to other courses and we'd like to get some of the prerequisites out of the way). In my daughter's case, English is her strong point and we're hoping she can CLEP out of the basic college comp class (at the recommendation of her current English teacher) in order to be able to move on to more interesting options. We're fully aware that her eventual college choice may or may not give her any credit for these, but the community college will.

 

Your daughter has had so much background in biology that I would bet she would do well with minimal prep. She's miles ahead of anywhere my daughter will likely ever be in science, honestly, and it sounds like this class would be primarily review for her anyway. The test is $80 then likely a $20 or so testing fee from a local test center (we used Strayer University and had a good experience, but lots of colleges and community colleges offer testing), so would likely save you substantial amounts of money as well as time that she could put to better use learning new material. 

[EndOfOrdinary]

Community college stuff that Ds has done in person has tainted his desire to go to college. They were just a couple open enrollment Saturdays, but in general, no one really wanted to be there other than my kid and two others. The instructor gave extra credit for those eho attended that were enrolled in his regular courses. It was a major wake up call to Ds that all colleges are not created equal and really set his Ivy dreams.

 

Online would be our choice, even for my extroverted kiddo.

[Arcadia]

One of the local community colleges used half the baby campbell book as their version of the biology textbook. I got it from the free pile at the library a few years back. It said Campbell Biology Concepts and Connections CCname college edition on the cover.

[Dmmetler]

We could do CLEP easily, but her mentor suggested that having a college transcript with a class would be better than a CLEP or AP score because it jumps a hoop-it demonstrates that not only can she handle college content, but at a college pace. (And apparently the online class would not show up on a transcript as being different since the exams are done on campus).

 

 

If we can't get her into a class this Spring, I may have her take the CLEP and see if we could get her in for a higher class in fall, which would interest her more and be more useful. My only reason for not pushing towards it is that with her doing her talk, the World Ed Games (which she didn't prep for, but still took a week's time) and the SAT, I'm already feeling the same panic the moms of high school seniors seem to be feeling. And I don't like it! I want to go back to having a 10 yr old, not a kid actively judging and weighing colleges and trying to figure out course pathways. In fact, can I please go back to "playing school" with a preschooler figuring out multiplication and memorizing dinosaur names? Please??

[quark]

We could do CLEP easily, but her mentor suggested that having a college transcript with a class would be better than a CLEP or AP score because it jumps a hoop-it demonstrates that not only can she handle college content, but at a college pace. (And apparently the online class would not show up on a transcript as being different since the exams are done on campus).

 

Yes, I agree that it shows that. You know her working pace best. For DS, as a late 11yo-young 12yo, the semester system meant juggling 4 live courses max (mix of core + elective) at a time and at most 1 more online course or an independent study at home. Any more and he didn't enjoy the pace...he has learned the art of testing and dropping courses for refunds now. :) An online course is a good way to test the waters. 

 

If we can't get her into a class this Spring, I may have her take the CLEP and see if we could get her in for a higher class in fall, which would interest her more and be more useful. My only reason for not pushing towards it is that with her doing her talk, the World Ed Games (which she didn't prep for, but still took a week's time) and the SAT, I'm already feeling the same panic the moms of high school seniors seem to be feeling. And I don't like it! I want to go back to having a 10 yr old, not a kid actively judging and weighing colleges and trying to figure out course pathways. In fact, can I please go back to "playing school" with a preschooler figuring out multiplication and memorizing dinosaur names? Please??

 

Since this is just a taster to see how she handles it, you really don't have to panic. I think moms of high school seniors (on these boards I mean) are in a different place entirely. They don't have as much luxury about doing a trial run. DS's first science course at the CC was a conceptual physics course that was fun and relaxed and he had a great time engaging the prof at office hours but it really was too easy. No pressure because it wasn't his senior year. She is going to be doing more lab-intensive work down the road anyway. This might be more enjoyable than you think (and hopefully not too easy). In fact, I think the biggest risk is she will be bored to death. I don't know what the quality is going to be like where she is taking the online class. I do wish we had been braver about labs and encouraged DS to take the harder courses that first semester or just jumped in to dual enrolling at the state flagship uni instead. We had other things to worry about but still, sometimes I wonder why I just didn't do it. We thought that CC = challenge for STEM courses given he was younger, but no, in fact it's the humanities courses there that are challenging him. If she can handle it, would she like to do a lab heavy course at the CC instead? Is scheduling too much issue? Lab courses at DS's CC = going in about 3-4 times a week for 2+ hours or staying for almost 5 hrs a day at the college 2x a week so yeah, that would kill me if we lived far away. What is the difference between the CC's and uni's standards?

 

ETA: re-reading your OP, an in person more in depth class + field research + some math for next semester -- would that be too much? My point is that box-checking is fine for this reason for sure but why not also have something to really learn from AND check the box? Just a thought from someone who wished she had done that.

 

[Dmmetler]

The time a lab class takes is what has me a little concerned. That and I kind of don't want her to have classes that would transfer in her major. The local schools aren't bad...they're a middle of the road state university and a local community college with a guaranteed transfer pathway for students with at least a 3.0 in specific courses into the state U system. But they're not research schools in her field which will give her the kind of opportunities she craves, nor do they have the faculty doing research in her field.

 

A more in-depth class would interest her, and she could take a microbiology course or something in ecology or environmental science. Her mentor has recommended avoiding A&P in this area because we're in a medically focused area, and A&P can get pretty grisly (and DD absolutely refuses to dissect, which is much more likely to be an issue in A&P) On Math, she could probably test into college algebra or non-calculus based statistics. I'd like her to have at least one more year of high school math, and two would be better before calculus (she's had AOPS Intro Algebra, parts of C&P and Number theory, quite a bit of plug and chug statistics, and is doing AOPS Geometry and SAT Math practice this year. She can easily pass the Algebra exit exam, expected to be taken after Algebra 2 (or could last Spring, based on giving her a released version of it)), which is all that's required to place into College algebra at the State U.

 

 

 

Honestly, there are at least 3-4 schools that would be a better fit for DE purposes in either our state system or the neighboring one (where she could pay in-state tuition), but each is at least a 2+ hour drive, and most are more like 3-4. I don't see any of them as a viable option for a physical class meeting more than 1x/week-and those 3 hour once a week lectures don't seem to exist for anything except Psychology, education, and business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[quark]

I can empathize. We had to move to make the current scenario do-able for DS. And might move again in a year for better DE options or we might just bite the bullet and apply full time and see what happens. Not the first time I've wished to live in a college town for the opportunities. Good luck with what you decide! Take care!

[chiguirre]

I think the online class is the better option. Having a student that is obviously not of the typical age for a course can make the other students and even the instructor uncomfortable. I'd avoid that in a general ed class if at all possible. Our experience with this phenomenon has been limited to high school classes, but it can freak people out even when T is only two or three years younger than typical students.

[EndOfOrdinary]

What about ASU and Global Freshman Academy? I have no idea if it meets needs or not but here is a link: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/arizona-state-university-and-edx-reimagine-first-year-of-college-offer-alternative-entry-into-higher-education-300070694.html

[Dmmetler]

If we can't get her into DE, maybe. I think it will work better if she can get into an official class, but if they're picky about it (officially you're supposed to be at least 15 and a sophomore to even apply for DE) it may be an option that would check the box.

[bibiche]

I think the online class is the better option. Having a student that is obviously not of the typical age for a course can make the other students and even the instructor uncomfortable. I'd avoid that in a general ed class if at all possible. Our experience with this phenomenon has been limited to high school classes, but it can freak people out even when T is only two or three years younger than typical students.

That hasn't been our experience at all - most students are friendly and kind and, if anything, amused. The professors are usually thrilled that someone is interested in their field.

In the OP's situation I might go with the online class (though usually I would encourage IRL class), but definitely not because I worried about anyone else's comfort level.

[quark]

That hasn't been our experience at all - most students are friendly and kind and, if anything, amused. The professors are usually thrilled that someone is interested in their field.

In the OP's situation I might go with the online class (though usually I would encourage IRL class), but definitely not because I worried about anyone else's comfort level.

 

This exactly. Choosing professors is a good skill too. DS has found the good professors to be most concerned about his welfare and very willing to go the extra mile explaining things to him during office hours. There really is no reluctance from them at all based on his age. They probably do the same for all students.

 

[HelenNotOfTroy]

With your daughter's age, I would go with the online course. Community college students, as mentioned above, are often only taking the class because they have to have a science class and there would not be intelligent discussion, which would be the main reason for taking a class in person.

[Dmmetler]

My experience is that is has to do with whether DD is perceived as competition or a threat. Parents are often less accepting than their kids. So, for example, my DD had a hard time being accepted in a middle school class as a 9 yr old (and I think the kids would have been OK-but the parents weren't) but at the same time had no trouble being accepted by grad students on field trips, or college students in the lab. Or even socially. It was the college kids and grad students who drove 3 hours (and brought friends) to come to DD's birthday party after she admitted that she was afraid no one would be there because her dance "friends" were going to a different party. I suspect that it would be easier to get DD into a college class, and that she'd have an easier time emotionally and socially in a college class than in, say, an AP bio class, even if it's the same level, and even more so if it counts for class rank or some other metric that could affect scholarship eligibility or college admissions.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Good luck on the DE. Our state is notoriously horrible about every little standard. Luckily they do not list an age, only "junior status." However, if the student does not graduate in two years they want their money back. I will have my fingers crossed for you! It seems like it might be quite a great life experience, if not necessarily a great academic one.