Scholé and Charlotte Mason in the High School Years and Beyond

[Woodland Mist Academy]

What does this mean to you?

 

It's been a year since this thread:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/527887-anyone-up-for-a-philosophical-discussion-about-teaching-from-a-state-of-rest-re-circe-discussion-and-how-it-is-interpretedapplied/?hl=%2Bschole

 

Anyone care to continue the conversation?

 

The spirit of the concept sometimes gets lost in popular interpretation, and it's easy to get distracted by preconceived notions, but scholé does seem worth pondering....

 

What does it mean to you in the high school years?

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'll go first....

 

One change we've made for high school is not doing every subject every day. I had good reasons for doing so in earlier years, and I'm not sure I would go back and change it - probably not. Now, however, a different schedule reigns.

 

DD's classes are mostly outsourced this year with classes mainly being Mon/Wed or Tues/Thurs. Assignments are due once or twice a week, depending on the class. Not only is this great preparation for how college schedules often work, but I've also noticed it really allows for a feeling of slowness and depth (if one plans properly!  ;) )  

 

Anyone else care to share current musings? Don't worry about whether or not they fit into someone else's interpretation of scholé.  :) 

[quark]

Woodland Mist, I feel like such an impostor but I wanted to give this thoughtful question a bump in the hopes more people will contribute.

 

Impostor because we are not classical, we outsource so heavily, and I had to google what schole means. :leaving: And no, I cannot read that thread. I will be sucked in pretty badly!

 

We are generally ebb and flow people and have tried to set time aside from the beginning for leisure and thinking. Some strategies now at the high school level:

1. Semester system school year and alternating busy and light semesters. Fall tends to be lighter in intensity of subjects and he has much more thinking and creating time. This works well for the both of us because fall here is usually summer-hot and we both prefer cooler weather for busy-ness.
2. 4 subjects a semester. e.g. 2 core + 2 electives, or 3 core + 1 elective. This semester he wanted to take 1 core + 1 elective outside of CC and 3 courses with the CC so I had to help him figure out a schedule to manage his time with 5 subjects, all at (community) college level (more or less), on a semester time frame. In the end, I decided to allow the 1 core + 1 elective self study courses to run beyond a semester if needed because he seems to love these courses and needs time to create original work, so who am I to force him to finish them in a semester or a year if they bring him so much joy?
3. We've never done all subjects every day. It would drive the both of us crazy and we just can't jump from one subject to the next in that fashion. When he was younger, it was 3-4 subjects a day but now he usually focuses on 2 subjects a day, sometimes 3 (sometimes that third is music or math and these don't usually feel like work to him).
4. At least one slow, leisurely day in our schedule with more time to play and a steady diet of laughter-inducing materials (books, films). Laughter is very important to this child. It's who he is.
5. We don't like rushing to anything so I make sure I set aside extra time for the commute when deciding on classes. I would rather be very early than rush through traffic because we are late. And you know, I sometimes insist that we don't listen to anything in the car...I just want that time for the both of us to think, or to talk to each other about what we are thinking.
6. Pulling him out of the chair on a regular basis to lie down on the floor or sofa cuddling the dog, or to do some kind of relaxing, repetitive-motion chore like sweeping the patio or pulling weeds (we have lots!! hee hee), something to take his mind off work and relax his eyes or to think about work but not in a typical way and sometimes removing him from the desk and pulling weeds or going to the whiteboard to work helps with that. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Thanks, quark! So many good ideas to think about.  :001_wub:   I've been having DD walk the dogs during breaks to get fresh air for the soul, relief for the eyes, and movement for the body, but I think I'll add weeding into the rotation! What a good idea on many levels! 

 

I'll read your post more closely tomorrow, we've had a long day... I'm sure weeding wasn't the main idea you wanted me to glean from your thoughtful post! It's just the one that popped out at me right at this moment.  ;)

 

Thanks, again!

[quark]

Just saying that there's finally a reason now to not feel bad about the weeds. :thumbup1:

[lewelma]

In high school I don't teach content, rather I co-learn content and teach/model study skills.  We are currently learning physics and english together.  We work to the same schedule and do the same work. In this way I can model what effective learning means, and I can do it in a non-preachy way.  I can model both struggle (and I have a lot) and how I overcome it.  I can model time management, the making of study materials, the overcoming of obstacles, etc. This approach also allows my ds to *teach* me and to have the sense of achievement associated with helping me to understand the material. So my overarching goal is specifically to NOT know the material when the term starts.  If I know the material, then I naturally become the teacher and the source of knowledge, which is against my goals. 

 

So for me to achieve a state of rest with this approach to homeschooling highschool, I need to make a schedule for both of us, make time to *do* my study on a weekly basis, make time to discuss issues that arise, make time to take and mark our tests together, but most importantly be aware of that *teaching moment* that will allow me to slowly but methodically influence my ds's perception of what learning is and what his goals should be.  In the end, I guess for me teaching from a state of rest is about my own time management and situational awareness. 

 

For me schole means seizing the moment with kind of an unschooling flair (although we are not unschoolers). When ds asked what he should read next for literature, I did not hand him a book and a study guide and an paper due date.  Instead, I showed him a list of 50 books that I had collected with a thread run here and we started discussing what each was about.  I was observant enough to realize that there was a 'teaching' moment at hand.  A couple of books led us down the post-modern path, and we started to read about what it is and is not, and he started getting excited.  I told him I would run a thread here and get some advice, and I have been reading him the posts.  This is my *math* boy, but through this kind of subtle 'manipulation' over years I have been able to build enthusiasm and a deep love of reading the hard stuff.

 

Schole is about life long learning that I achieve through shared learning and following his lead.  I don't teach, but rather adapt to what the day gives me.

 

Ruth in NZ

[quark]

Ruth, thank you for sharing that!

 

Woodland Mist please feel free to let me know if this shouldn't be included here under schole (like I said, it is a very new to me word/ concept and I had to google it lol).

 

What I would really like to know is how much time do boardies' DC have for contemplation of what they are studying. And how is that time spent, how much of it is directed, how much insight is derived from chance thinking, or doing something by chance related to what they are learning. I know it will differ drastically from person to person...just trying to figure out if there's a pattern and to see what ideas I can glean.

 

For example, how does a DC find out things related to his/ her studies or go deeper? (ETA, edited to ask everyone, not just Ruth!) For e.g. for DS, he needs leisure time to really get into something. There was a moment of serendipity earlier this semester when he tried to combine two interests -- poking around on Wikipedia and researching a lit novel. He decided to edit the Wikipedia article about the subject in the novel due to what he perceived as an error in the article he found. The article's original writer sent him a note asking him not to edit the page and that took DS totally unawares. DS thought at first that the writer was being defensive and overly protective of his work. But more investigation showed that it was DS who was in the wrong. And DS learned so much from this and it gave him new insight not only about depth of research needed but also about the novel he was studying and the context in which it was written. This could have happened if we had studied it together but there is only so much time I can spend studying something with him before my attention is needed elsewhere. If DS hadn't had leisure time to contemplate the novel, or research it and then decide to edit the wiki and go through this whole process of being chastised, he might not have learned more about the novel till much later.

 

He seized a moment, made a mistake and learned so much from it.  This is actually the lifelong learning I yearn for him to have. I'd love for him to have more opportunity to learn this way vs opening a book and following a syllabus or going to a class. But to have that opportunity, one needs more time in the day. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Very relevant, quark! Good questions!

[lewelma]

I was thinking about running a thread just on that topic, Quark.  DS is starting to give me pushback on the more exam-based approach we have been forced to adopt for university entrance. External exams channel you into a very narrow approach to a subject which can feel really restrictive having come from a no-test homeschool. DS's IMO maths is very problem-solving based, with a lot less content; you learn by doing, and doing a LOT. He needs time for this, but he still has to do he exam-based work too.  So we have come up with a plan to make sure that he has time for his passion (math), time for his school work, and time to just be. Basically, all is well if he is in the lounge by 8:30 by himself with no electronics (unless there is a *specific* need/goal which he runs by me).  He goes to bed at 11:30, so that is 2.5 hours for thinking, reading, origami, whatever (and half hour to get ready for bed). The house is quiet as we all go into our rooms then, so he does not feel like he is 'missing out.' I see him read the Economist, his novel, or he just plays a game of solitary with cards.  Sometimes he is researching something on the computer, but I make sure he has a goal and does not just surf. I think he is honest.  :001_smile:

 

I find that for *this* boy, afternoon time is rarely used constructively.  I see video games or surfing or chatting with internet friends happening from 4-6 (unless he is in charge of dinner, then only from 4-5).  I see this as just relaxing after doing a hard day's work, and I don't bug him about it.  This time is usually on the computer, which is why I make sure that the evening is without electronics. Weekends for this boy need to be filled with activity - music, badminton, D&D, friends, etc for him to be happy and not moody as he is a schedule-driven kid.  I see no useful muddling around happening until he goes in the lounge at 8:30.  Basically, he agrees with the idea that there needs to be a scheduled time for thinking, reading, sitting that is sacred every.single.night.

 

I get the impression that ds does not do as many hours of work each week as many highschoolers, certainly not nearly as many as I did.  But he *cannot* do more and stay a happy, balanced human.  And who am I to take that away from him?  He is smart enough to do well with fewer hours than many, but I am sure he could achieve more if he did more work.  But once again, who am I to demand that?  

 

As for your other question (I think I am rambling), ds's English class is completely delight driven.  NZ's internal assessments are flexible enough that ds can basically study/write about almost anything he wants and we can make it into formal credits within the tightly controlled system.  So for his writing credits he wrote about Nuclear power and Superconductors, for his response essays he wrote about freewill in Brother's Karamazov and is currently attacking immortality with some Sci Fi book.  Next up will probably be post-modern literature.  

 

We have decided that Mandarin will not be for credit so he will study it any way he pleases (with a tutor).  

 

Music is assessed by performance, so doesn't really affect his studies at all (he has 4 different tutors).

 

Physics and Chemistry will be standard exam-driven studies (good prep for university)

 

Maths, well maths is maths, and you know what ds is like.  

 

On the side, ds reads the Economist and loves to discuss current events. 

 

So mostly we are still delight driven over here with the exception of science, I guess. Unfortunately, the exams seem to be killing his love for physics.  sigh.  I find this to be a horrible outcome.  :crying:  However, he is learning study skills and he is learning the material better, so I keep reminding him of that but he's not buying it.

 

Oh dear, Quark, I'm not sure I answered any of your questions at all.  Maybe someone else will have more clarity.

 

Ruth in NZ 

[quark]

Ruth it is helpful! Thank you. As for clarity, can one ever receive such a gift while one is in the thick of all this homeschooling mayhem? I think any clarity I develop will only come years after DS graduates, or maybe only when a grand kid (if I might be so lucky) is plopped on my lap.

 

Will read in more detail later. Thanks again for sharing, Ruth!

[quark]

OT -- Would this happen to be Philip K Dick by any chance? (If yes, the coincidence is uncanny!) :laugh:

 

 

[...] and is currently attacking immortality with some Sci Fi book.

 

[lewelma]

 

OT -- Would this happen to be Philip K Dick by any chance? (If yes, the coincidence is uncanny!) :laugh:

 

Sailing to Byzantium by Silverberg.  He is comparing it to the novel of the same name by Yeats. Sorry to disappoint. (-:

[quark]

Sailing to Byzantium by Silverberg.  He is comparing it to the novel of the same name by Yeats. Sorry to disappoint. (-:

 

Not at all! I remember Yeats' poem! And I think DS would love to read Silverberg's novel too. Very timely because DS is currently exploring Irish lit via Joyce. I'm glad I asked but regretful that yet again I am hijacking a thread. Okay back to schole!

 

[Penguin]

I will read the linked thread later, so I am probably missing the mark on what you want to discuss.

 

We don't have a lot of outsourcing, but I have taken myself out of the day a bit by letting OneNote do most of the directing. Each class has a tab with all the necessary information my student needs to get to work.

 

We meet Mondays and Thursdays for English, Tuesdays and Fridays for Biology. Those are also the due dates for those courses. Other classes have a Monday 8:15 a.m. due date.

 

I always put some fun and variety in the assignments. I think we would wither otherwise.

 

I try to think about what purpose the course serves in the learning-about-learning realm. What do I want from this course beyond the material it covers?

 

For science, I am doing what Ruth does - learning alongside DS and modeling study skills.

 

Latin is outsourced, but I want to learn Latin so I plug away at it. However, I am chapters behind DS so he tutors me. Win-win.

 

Danish is supposed to teach him how to learn a foreign language independently. He has a tutor, but that is only two hours per week. I am systematically introducing techniques: SRS, scriptorium, intensive reading, extensive reading, etc. I want him to figure out what works for him.

 

We have to count hours for the first time this year. I see pros and cons to that, but it has to be done so we might as well exploit the pros as much as possible.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Just saying that there's finally a reason now to not feel bad about the weeds. :thumbup1:

 

I'll tell anyone looking at the weeds askew that they're a school project... ;)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

Woodland Mist, I feel like such an impostor but I wanted to give this thoughtful question a bump in the hopes more people will contribute.

 

Impostor because we are not classical, we outsource so heavily, and I had to google what schole means. :leaving: And no, I cannot read that thread. I will be sucked in pretty badly!

 

We are generally ebb and flow people and have tried to set time aside from the beginning for leisure and thinking. Some strategies now at the high school level:

1. Semester system school year and alternating busy and light semesters. Fall tends to be lighter in intensity of subjects and he has much more thinking and creating time. This works well for the both of us because fall here is usually summer-hot and we both prefer cooler weather for busy-ness.
2. 4 subjects a semester. e.g. 2 core + 2 electives, or 3 core + 1 elective. This semester he wanted to take 1 core + 1 elective outside of CC and 3 courses with the CC so I had to help him figure out a schedule to manage his time with 5 subjects, all at (community) college level (more or less), on a semester time frame. In the end, I decided to allow the 1 core + 1 elective self study courses to run beyond a semester if needed because he seems to love these courses and needs time to create original work, so who am I to force him to finish them in a semester or a year if they bring him so much joy?
3. We've never done all subjects every day. It would drive the both of us crazy and we just can't jump from one subject to the next in that fashion. When he was younger, it was 3-4 subjects a day but now he usually focuses on 2 subjects a day, sometimes 3 (sometimes that third is music or math and these don't usually feel like work to him).
4. At least one slow, leisurely day in our schedule with more time to play and a steady diet of laughter-inducing materials (books, films). Laughter is very important to this child. It's who he is.
5. We don't like rushing to anything so I make sure I set aside extra time for the commute when deciding on classes. I would rather be very early than rush through traffic because we are late. And you know, I sometimes insist that we don't listen to anything in the car...I just want that time for the both of us to think, or to talk to each other about what we are thinking.
6. Pulling him out of the chair on a regular basis to lie down on the floor or sofa cuddling the dog, or to do some kind of relaxing, repetitive-motion chore like sweeping the patio or pulling weeds (we have lots!! hee hee), something to take his mind off work and relax his eyes or to think about work but not in a typical way and sometimes removing him from the desk and pulling weeds or going to the whiteboard to work helps with that. 

 

 

Regarding outsourcing: That's why I changed the title from teaching from rest to schole. It seemed a bit illogical to start a thread about teaching from rest, then to promptly start discussing outsourcing, which is mostly what we're doing.  ;)  By changing it to schole, people across the spectrum of high school - from teaching all subjects at home to outsourcing everything with DE - could contribute.  :)  Thanks for helping to get the thread moving! (ETA: I should probably delete the outsourcing comment in the original post; it doesn't make as much sense now that I changed the title...)

 

1. We're on a yearly calendar, not semester, but I've been thinking similar thoughts lately as I do early planning for next year's classes. I've been thinking of a aspect of the IB model. (At least I think it's part of the IB model, I may well be wrong...) It's my understanding a few subjects are done more or less on level and a few are done on a more challenging level. This is how this year seems to be shaping up, and it appears to be working well. We may try for a similar balance next year. 

 

5. I agree about extra time for commutes! We do the same thing, but then it takes even more time out of our day. Still trying to adjust to that with all the outsourcing and more fixed schedule and deadlines. Also trying to determine what role the Great Courses lectures will play during commutes this year. They used to be the default for the drive to an activity with discussion or contemplation being the default for the drive home.  It remains to be seen how that will work this year. We seem to be using the time to discuss more, partially due to the outsourcing, which is fine except it throws a wrench in my perfectly laid out Great Courses Commuting Course... :sneaky2:  :tongue_smilie:

[Woodland Mist Academy]

There is so much I want to respond to, but it might be a few days before I can.

 

Thanks for the posts so far. I'm looking forward to reading them more closely later, as well as any new ones. :)

[BlsdMama]

Have you listened to the newest Morning Basket podcast yet?  An interview with Christopher Pepin about schole education.... It was very inspiring.

[Deee]

Can I just say, as I look down the barrel of the last term of year 9, with DS14 who wants to go to school for year 11 and 12 and is absolutely NOT READY, that the thread from last year is absolutely awesome. I am still trying to quell the rising panic, but I can see some way forward.  More preparation (I am very good at planning to plan...), more simplicity, better articulated goals, more of him in the mix, less of what everyone else is doing.  Some of my panic comes from having only one go at this.  He is an only - all my eggs are in one basket and the basket has a mind of his own

D

[Penguin]

Some more thoughts from someone only in the beginning of 9th grade:

 

I implemented some structural changes that are different than middle school.  I decided to work on the the trimester system of three terms, even though we have to report semester grades.  It is a CM idea with a twist that has always appealed to me. 

 

At the end of the term, we will put the daily, regular work aside.  There will be some projects, some presentations, some CM-style exams.

 

 

I am happy enough with the direction of our transition to high school, but a state of rest seems admittedly a bit elusive.

 

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Some more thoughts from someone only in the beginning of 9th grade:

 

I implemented some structural changes that are different than middle school.  I decided to work on the the trimester system of three terms, even though we have to report semester grades.  It is a CM idea with a twist that has always appealed to me. 

 

At the end of the term, we will put the daily, regular work aside.  There will be some projects, some presentations, some CM-style exams.

 

 

I am happy enough with the direction of our transition to high school, but a state of rest seems admittedly a bit elusive.

 

So interesting you mentioned Charlotte Mason. She's been on my mind the last few days...One reason I logged on was to change the title of the thread to include her. I think her idea of "education is an atmosphere, a discipline, a life" goes well with schole. Thinking through the CM lens is in many ways more helpful to me than just thinking of schole.  

 

More later...for now I'm changing the thread title...again... ;)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Can I just say, as I look down the barrel of the last term of year 9, with DS14 who wants to go to school for year 11 and 12 and is absolutely NOT READY, that the thread from last year is absolutely awesome. I am still trying to quell the rising panic, but I can see some way forward.  More preparation (I am very good at planning to plan...), more simplicity, better articulated goals, more of him in the mix, less of what everyone else is doing.  Some of my panic comes from having only one go at this.  He is an only - all my eggs are in one basket and the basket has a mind of his own

D

 

:lol:

 

I can relate! The other day my dd was talking and I thought:

 

She looks like my child, she sounds like my child, but what are those opinions she is expressing?!? :ohmy:  :sneaky2:   :svengo:

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Have you listened to the newest Morning Basket podcast yet?  An interview with Christopher Pepin about schole education.... It was very inspiring.

 

I almost passed this by for many reasons. I'm glad I didn't. Thanks for mentioning it. I haven't had a chance to listen to all of it yet, but I've been taking notes on what I have listened to so I can comment on it later. I disagree with some of it, but much of it goes along with thoughts I've been having recently. Many of which take me back to how we used to go about things before high school loomed large.

 

He evens mentions CM...

 

I plan to come back and comment on the interview after I've finished it. I think it may be the first schole talk I make it all the way through....that speaks volumes! 

 

Thanks, again!

 

For anyone wondering...the topic is ritual. http://yourmorningbasket.libsyn.com/

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I've finished it. As is often the case, and as is acknowledged by Dr. Perrin in the podcast, there is not a lot of practical advice given. He suggests looking to your religious tradition for the practical. So if you are looking for practical ideas for high school, this might not be the most helpful. He does give ideas to consider, so the podcast still has much to offer if you are interested in ritual.

 

He mentioned a few times that he was speaking to Christians or those with a religious tradition. I find that not being part of a religious tradition does not hinder in any way my understanding or using the suggestions mentioned. Ritual and following cycles of the day and of the year have been done for thousands of years by those without religious traditions... I think when discussing these topics in our modern times, more boils down to personality and values than religious affiliation. 

 

More later...

[Woodland Mist Academy]

In the podcast, Dr. Perrin mentions the Sabbath, not only on the seventh day, but during each day. He mentions maybe one hour of the seven hour school day be a Sabbath of sorts, or 5 min of a 35 min math class. He mentions that he is not saying hard work is not needed, but that sometimes we forget to have periods of rest to allow for contemplation and restoration.

 

I am reminded of quark's mention of having a day of leisure for play and laughter each week. I am also reminded of an article by Oliver Sacks (RIP): http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/opinion/sunday/oliver-sacks-sabbath.html?_r=0

 

I realized this past week that our "Sabbath"  is broken throughout the week. We work on schoolwork 6-7 days a week. We have several half-days of school with schole in the afternoons and evenings. (Yes, Charlotte, it takes a while for me to understand...)  It took really thinking about what schole means, and specifically what it means to me, before I could see that we weren't just running around to activities. On the contrary: the traveling, the time with friends and mentors, the good food and good drinks with laughter and conversation -- all of it--- schole. Rather than dropping some of the activities, I've decided to protect them even more. 

[quark]

 

 

I am reminded of quark's mention of having a day of leisure for play and laughter each week. I am also reminded of an article by Oliver Sacks (RIP): http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/opinion/sunday/oliver-sacks-sabbath.html?_r=0

 

 

 

:crying: Thank you for sharing that article. I wish we could have an entire thread dedicated to Oliver Sacks. He brought us so much joy in our homeschooling, so many discussions revolved around his case studies. And to have his name and my pseudonym mentioned in one line feels like a great honor so thank you for that too.

 

I went back and read the thread you linked in your OP. While I can relate to some of the ideas mentioned there, it makes me feel even more of an impostor. Many of the replies reflect the kind of homeschooler I wish I could be but I have had to forget that aspiration and instead embrace that my son learns to his own drumbeat and there's no way I can mimic some of what is mentioned in that thread. I can prepare as much as I want but I still cannot engage the way he thinks and learns and I have to, just have to, be the one to learn alongside, not the one leading the learning. What works here is to let him go ahead and slowly follow in his wake, picking up little crumbs of knowledge and finally months later piece things together to form a semblance of info that I can then use to discuss with him. I can prepare but it doesn't work out...I either over do it or he wants to take it in a whole different direction from what I have prepared. There are some areas where I can thankfully, be ahead of him, but these are few. I have lately been toying with the idea that I could have LDs. They were never diagnosed by a professional. But this is what makes the most sense in our situation. Why I just can't learn in the way he does, and why I get mentally exhausted so much more easily. And why I can learn somethings differently and go way past where he is (but these are so few).

 

Fridays are our "sabbath" day. This semester, we have put aside 2 hours every Friday for improv classes where he laughs and giggles and literally rolls around the floor clutching his sides in merriment and it's SO good for him. I wish we had done this sooner. Then after improv we take our time driving around getting errands done, we sometimes eat lunch out and talk about our week or day, and we come back home and continue the conversation, unless he has a quiz or an assignment due (his Japanese quizzes and homework are usually due on Saturdays). I love how our Fridays help us wind down because the rest of the week is very busy. Another semester it might be another low-key day and not Friday but that low-key day is so important to us, to him and me, and as a result, to the dynamic of family life and study life.

 

We were actually considering ramping up the college prep this fall but I am so glad that I put that aside. I don't know what next semester will bring but I am glad that he is having this slightly easier semester...it's so lovely to shoot for relaxation over rushing for once (I still don't know if that's what schole is exactly but we are not following any fixed definition of anything anyway lol).

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Quark, I think we are all the richer when different people share their experiences and views about a concept! Yours are as valid as anyone else's! Please don't feel like an imposter. You're the best quark I know!

[Deee]

Thank you for the link to the Oliver Sacks piece.  Well worth the read

D

[Loesje22000]

I like to read the thread.

 

Reacting on the 'Sabbath during the week' idea:

 

In Belgium all students from preK - 12, have no school on wednessday afternoon.

They can make homework or attend music or fine arts lessons, sports etc.

As dd attend the academy for fine arts on wednessday afternoon, we have just the morning for lessons.

I scheduled it with most of our '1time per week' subjects.

Therefore the wednessday got a different feeling.

M-T are pretty similar days. Then we got Wednessday as 'odd day' and then T-F are similar days again.

This cycle works for us.

 

And yes we still continue with the 30 min. per class system

This way we can still manage to do all the work without evening homework.

[Penguin]

Ah, quark! That "imposter" thing grabs me, too. As soon as I wrote that I was modeling science for my son like Ruth is doing, I thought "Imposter!" because of course I am not doing it like Ruth. Because I am NOT Ruth, and I don't posess Ruth's gift for teaching science. Nevertheless, I am modeling and learning the science alongside DS. I am showing how to puzzle through not letting biology just be a jumble of words (yesterday's jumble included amino acids, polypeptide bonds, and the tertiary structure of proteins) because, well, I haven't studied biology since 9th grade so by default we ARE in this together...

 

WMA, you wrote about protecting activities. That has been on my mind, too. As you know, we travel quite a bit. It can make it hard to create rhythms and keep momentum. But the experiences and adventures are so worth it! I fear fallling into the it-is-too-disruptive trap, but I remind myself that we do indeed do our share of book learning, thank-you-very-much.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

Ruth, thank you for sharing that!

 

Woodland Mist please feel free to let me know if this shouldn't be included here under schole (like I said, it is a very new to me word/ concept and I had to google it lol).

 

What I would really like to know is how much time do boardies' DC have for contemplation of what they are studying. And how is that time spent, how much of it is directed, how much insight is derived from chance thinking, or doing something by chance related to what they are learning. I know it will differ drastically from person to person...just trying to figure out if there's a pattern and to see what ideas I can glean.

 

For example, how does a DC find out things related to his/ her studies or go deeper? (ETA, edited to ask everyone, not just Ruth!) For e.g. for DS, he needs leisure time to really get into something. There was a moment of serendipity earlier this semester when he tried to combine two interests -- poking around on Wikipedia and researching a lit novel. He decided to edit the Wikipedia article about the subject in the novel due to what he perceived as an error in the article he found. The article's original writer sent him a note asking him not to edit the page and that took DS totally unawares. DS thought at first that the writer was being defensive and overly protective of his work. But more investigation showed that it was DS who was in the wrong. And DS learned so much from this and it gave him new insight not only about depth of research needed but also about the novel he was studying and the context in which it was written. This could have happened if we had studied it together but there is only so much time I can spend studying something with him before my attention is needed elsewhere. If DS hadn't had leisure time to contemplate the novel, or research it and then decide to edit the wiki and go through this whole process of being chastised, he might not have learned more about the novel till much later.

 

He seized a moment, made a mistake and learned so much from it. This is actually the lifelong learning I yearn for him to have. I'd love for him to have more opportunity to learn this way vs opening a book and following a syllabus or going to a class. But to have that opportunity, one needs more time in the day.

These are really good questions! I've been mulling over them for days. My thoughts are still a bit scattered on the issues, so please excuse lack of clarity! ;)

 

I don't think lifelong learning and following a syllabus/going to a class are mutually exclusive. There are so many possible experiences in the world. There is no way we can have them all. So much comes down to genetics, opportunity, and random chance.

There have been many times we've debated going to a weekend lecture vs a day trip vs having rare free time at home. No matter what we decide, each time we win AND we lose. We will always miss out on something...

 

I could tell several stories in which connections were made or passions ignited while we were following a syllabus or a suggested reading list. One time, in particular, stands out. I remember ordering a book from a book list without doing much research into it. I remember flipping through the book and regretting the purchase. I also remember deciding (with some significant hesitation as to the book's appropriateness) to assign it anyway. The rest is history. It set dd down a path she continues on today. I now think of that book fondly. How would her life be different if it was never assigned? Would she have stumbled on the path eventually? Would she be on a better path instead? A worse one? There's no way of knowing...

 

I can also remember books from lists that were duds and structured classes that were failures. Likewise, I can also remember hours of free time dd has wasted, hours I hoped she would use productively.  All that to say, neither path-- structured learning versus interest lead free learning-- is all roses or thorns.

 

The more I think of it, the more it seems to me the questions you are asking have everything in the world to do with schole! I'm so glad you asked! Scheduled studies vs free time to contemplate....

 

For us, it seems a balance of both is good. DD seems to enjoy new things being thrown her way that she might not happen upon otherwise. She also needs free time to reflect. She does seem to need both structure and free time.

 

I think DD would actually be less happy and less likely to thrive if she didn't frequently encounter new ideas she didn't intentionally seek out or that aren't on her preferred path.

 

You are probably right in that it varies from person to person. Thanks again for the question; I'm still trying to puzzle through it, which is probably obvious!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I think perhaps for dd it's best to have all the subjects that need grades to be more structured. All the extras are better for free time. She prefers it one way or the other. Either she has free reign to study a subject in whatever way or frequency she wants or she doesn't. She doesn't like the murky area in between. Neither do I. 

 

Once again, no right or wrong! The more people responding with different experiences the better! 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

 

He seized a moment, made a mistake and learned so much from it.  This is actually the lifelong learning I yearn for him to have. I'd love for him to have more opportunity to learn this way vs opening a book and following a syllabus or going to a class. But to have that opportunity, one needs more time in the day. 

 

I just remembered something relevant that happened recently in the outsourced class.

 

She made a mistake in the class that ended up leading to a back and forth exchange with the instructor. What a lesson it was! We laugh about it now and use it as a cautionary tale in the family, but at the time  :thumbdown: .....

 

When I wonder if I made the right decision about the class, I remember that mistake and the continuing ripples in the water... I am so grateful she had the experience! She learned so much from the mistake!

 

Two mistakes with lasting lessons of significance. Two very different scenarios! 

[quark]

Coming back to reply that I keep thinking about this post. A friend of mine describes her kid as a moving target and I agree with her. I think we struggle for clarity because nothing about our children is static. They are constantly moving, changing, discovering, developing...how on earth do we pin anything down? I mean I felt so relaxed and confident last week but this week, we are struggling to find time for some new opportunities coming his way. Should he take them? Should he leave them for later? How do I know? How do I tell what's right to do when, and how on earth do we make time?

 

I don't think lifelong learning and following a syllabus/going to a class are mutually exclusive. There are so many possible experiences in the world. There is no way we can have them all. So much comes down to genetics, opportunity, and random chance.
There have been many times we've debated going to a weekend lecture vs a day trip vs having rare free time at home. No matter what we decide, each time we win AND we lose. We will always miss out on something...

 

You are absolutely right. What I meant was that I would love those mistake-related opportunities on a frequent basis, outside of the opportunities that accompany a syllabus/ book. Those real life ones that we just cannot predict. The very fact that he is responding totally without a script of ANY type is interesting to me. But yes, they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

 

She made a mistake in the class that ended up leading to a back and forth exchange with the instructor. What a lesson it was! We laugh about it now and use it as a cautionary tale in the family, but at the time  :thumbdown: .....

 

 

Yes, and sometimes it's not a mistake but an exploration of a different nature. Again, these sort of experiences seem to occur best when we didn't plan them. A sudden decision to give a presentation for example, or to attend a talk...but for us, these require having free time to pursue. If kiddo is too busy with homework, he doesn't want to present to our homeschool group. He should obviously prioritize the homework but sometimes the presenting brings about something different and so much more worthwhile. How to choose?

[quark]

Ah, quark! That "imposter" thing grabs me, too. As soon as I wrote that I was modeling science for my son like Ruth is doing, I thought "Imposter!" because of course I am not doing it like Ruth. Because I am NOT Ruth, and I don't posess Ruth's gift for teaching science. Nevertheless, I am modeling and learning the science alongside DS. I am showing how to puzzle through not letting biology just be a jumble of words (yesterday's jumble included amino acids, polypeptide bonds, and the tertiary structure of proteins) because, well, I haven't studied biology since 9th grade so by default we ARE in this together...

 

WMA, you wrote about protecting activities. That has been on my mind, too. As you know, we travel quite a bit. It can make it hard to create rhythms and keep momentum. But the experiences and adventures are so worth it! I fear fallling into the it-is-too-disruptive trap, but I remind myself that we do indeed do our share of book learning, thank-you-very-much.

 

Thanks for saying this. I'm so glad I'm not alone.

 

I think it's so incredible that you guys travel and homeschool. That would definitely be worth juggling things around for in my book. But I also understand how it messes with routines and rhythms. We traveled quite a bit pre-kiddo and now, we move quite regularly, regionally, not internationally, but it is disruptive nevertheless.

[Luckymama]

Coming back to reply that I keep thinking about this post. A friend of mine describes her kid as a moving target and I agree with her. I think we struggle for clarity because nothing about our children is static. They are constantly moving, changing, discovering, developing...how on earth do we pin anything down? I mean I felt so relaxed and confident last week but this week, we are struggling to find time for some new opportunities coming his way. Should he take them? Should he leave them for later? How do I know? How do I tell what's right to do when, and how on earth do we make time?

 

Oh my goodness, you have articulated my thoughts! I feel this way all the time. If I start feeling relaxed about a path or a decision, dd is sure to hit me with something completely new and out-of-the-blue in the next day or so.

[Reefgazer]

I do the same thing -I learn many subjects with DD and try to model effective learning. I am so happy someone validated that because I thought maybe I was ripping her off and was considering that I should hire a real teacher for things I am not expert in (ahem, Latin).

 

 

In high school I don't teach content, rather I co-learn content and teach/model study skills.  We are currently learning physics and english together.  We work to the same schedule and do the same work. In this way I can model what effective learning means, and I can do it in a non-preachy way.  I can model both struggle (and I have a lot) and how I overcome it.  I can model time management, the making of study materials, the overcoming of obstacles, etc. This approach also allows my ds to *teach* me and to have the sense of achievement associated with helping me to understand the material. So my overarching goal is specifically to NOT know the material when the term starts.  If I know the material, then I naturally become the teacher and the source of knowledge, which is against my goals. 

 

So for me to achieve a state of rest with this approach to homeschooling highschool, I need to make a schedule for both of us, make time to *do* my study on a weekly basis, make time to discuss issues that arise, make time to take and mark our tests together, but most importantly be aware of that *teaching moment* that will allow me to slowly but methodically influence my ds's perception of what learning is and what his goals should be.  In the end, I guess for me teaching from a state of rest is about my own time management and situational awareness. 

 

For me schole means seizing the moment with kind of an unschooling flair (although we are not unschoolers). When ds asked what he should read next for literature, I did not hand him a book and a study guide and an paper due date.  Instead, I showed him a list of 50 books that I had collected with a thread run here and we started discussing what each was about.  I was observant enough to realize that there was a 'teaching' moment at hand.  A couple of books led us down the post-modern path, and we started to read about what it is and is not, and he started getting excited.  I told him I would run a thread here and get some advice, and I have been reading him the posts.  This is my *math* boy, but through this kind of subtle 'manipulation' over years I have been able to build enthusiasm and a deep love of reading the hard stuff.

 

Schole is about life long learning that I achieve through shared learning and following his lead.  I don't teach, but rather adapt to what the day gives me.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

[Loesje22000]

I can see the value of modeling studyhabits.

But what if a parent and a child have different studystyles?

And do you that modeling with ALL subjects or just SOME?

 

Just curious :)

 

[quark]

I can see the value of modeling studyhabits.

But what if a parent and a child have different studystyles?

And do you that modeling with ALL subjects or just SOME?

 

Just curious :)

 

DS and I have very different styles. We outsource a lot. And then learn together with the outsourced class as a guide. Now that I am juggling some work outside the home as well, I am hoping that modelling the right questions to ask is a valuable contribution for him. Sometimes he is stuck with a writing assignment because he just doesn't realize the ways in which he could be exploring the topic. So I pose him questions and we talk about those questions and he realizes he does have more to write about after all. I guess you could say I'm like a recitation teacher or a teaching assistant for the life skills part of the class but a fellow student for some (or in a few cases all) of the content.

[Loesje22000]

DS and I have very different styles. We outsource a lot. And then learn together with the outsourced class as a guide. Now that I am juggling some work outside the home as well, I am hoping that modelling the right questions to ask is a valuable contribution for him. Sometimes he is stuck with a writing assignment because he just doesn't realize the ways in which he could be exploring the topic. So I pose him questions and we talk about those questions and he realizes he does have more to write about after all. I guess you could say I'm like a recitation teacher or a teaching assistant for the life skills part of the class but a fellow student for some (or in a few cases all) of the content.

That is so recognizable :)

 

You gave me something to ponder.

So far we don't outsource a lot as most courses seems too slow for dd.

when she passed all the required exams I want to enroll dd at a bravewriter class.

 

[quark]

You gave me something to ponder.

So far we don't outsource a lot as most courses seems too slow for dd.

when she passed all the required exams I want to enroll dd at a bravewriter class.

 

I think I know what you mean. Our outsourcing is usually a one-on-one tutor-based independent study program and/or a college class.

He hasn't had much luck with non-math group classes online. Most non-math classes are now taken at the community college.

 

[lewelma]

I do the same thing -I learn many subjects with DD and try to model effective learning. I am so happy someone validated that because I thought maybe I was ripping her off and was considering that I should hire a real teacher for things I am not expert in (ahem, Latin).

 

 

I tutor part time.  I am not a homework helper; rather I fix messes for B&M students.  I evaluate the student, create an annual plan, purchase separate materials, and set separate homework. I basically run my students through an additional course in mathematics or science tailored to them. I am very effective and people pay me $4000 per course to remediate. For my most advanced students, I make sure to prep the subject matter of my lessons LESS, because my goal is to teach them 'skills' not just the material. I need to make sure I don't know all the answers, that I have to look them up, so I can model these skills. For one girl, we are learning organic chemistry together.  I have not taken it in more than 25 years.  So we agree to our homework, text eachother encouragement, and come back together to compare our work.  I show her a great website I have found with awesome flow chart diagrams, she sends me a video on bonding.  When I started memorizing all the reactions by writing the flowchart from memory over and over, she said 'oh, that's a great idea, I'll try it.' Only when it is clear that she is seriously stumped will I tell her, hey, lets wait on this until next week, because I need to go learn this material so I can be your teacher on this rather than your co-learner. Then I go and predigest all the material, and make it into easy spoon-fed knowledge.

 

People pay me to be a co-learner. For my best students, I teach study skills by modeling rather than being a teacher from on high, and it works. It is very motivating to them to see how hard I have to work, to see how I handle frustrations, to see that even very learned adults don't get it on the first try. I am not just a friend muddling through, because I know *how* to study, be it analyzing the tests for *how* an answer should be worded, or be it finding alternative study methods if the first way won't work.  I suggest youtube videos, flash cards, cornell notes, rewriting notes, reorganising notes, outlining in the book, outlining on paper, integrating book notes with class notes, using colour, drawing diagrams, studying in blocks, studying in tiny chunks, getting exercise, taking breaks, etc. I teach these kids metacognition skills -- how to evalute their own learning, how to know they don't know the material, how to adjust/adapt to limitations, how to accept who they are. End the end, if I *teach* her chemistry, that is all I have done.  1 subject.  If I teacher her study skills *using* chemistry, she can fish for life.

 

I just reread this, and it feels a bit braggy. :tongue_smilie:   All I am trying to say is that you are NOT doing a student a disservice by being a co-learner.  In my books, if you do it right, it is way more effective for some students than being a traditional teacher.

 

 Ruth in NZ 

 

[lewelma]

I can see the value of modeling studyhabits.

But what if a parent and a child have different studystyles?

And do you that modeling with ALL subjects or just SOME?

 

Just curious :)

 

Some stuff is very transferable even through different styles -- evaluating how well you know the material, estimating how much time you need to budget to be prepared, comparing your essay answers to the model answers.  Memorizing only takes a few forms: writing or speaking; paper or computer. So I help my kids trial stuff until they find something that works for them.  But just because I memorize with flashcards, and they memorize by writing out huge sheets of ideas connected in a web form in multicolors, does not make seeing me do it a different way any less effective.  What this difference does is help with metacognition.  *How* do you know one way doesn't work for you?  How can you tell you are learning the material effectively? Same with comprehending: input through reading, video, or discussion; and output with writing or speaking.  There are only so many combinations and you just start with the easiest one and work through them until you find something effective.

 

I do not model all subjects.  I model the ones that are the most difficult for *that* specific kid.  So for my older boy, I modelled math problem solving 3 years ago when he was jumping up into the competition stream, now I model physics.  I also facilitate subjects like English, where I don't *teach* from a position of knowledge but I also don't write all the papers (although I have in the past).  So I model how to find information from the computer or from your inner self.  We discuss a lot, but not from a position of me having the answers. For my younger boy, I am modeling learning Mandarin, where I do all the work he does. My husband modelled learning the violin for 5 years.

 

I *teach* algebra to some of my tutor kids, because the goal is efficient learning.

 

So kind of depends on the situation. 

 

Ruth in NZ

 

[lewelma]

WMA, I'm not sure I'm talking Schole or Charlotte Mason, sorry.  But as always, writing it all out helps me to see more clearly.  So thanks for starting the thread, even if I appear to be derailing it. :tongue_smilie: 

 

Ruth in NZ 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

WMA, I'm not sure I'm talking Schole or Charlotte Mason, sorry. But as always, writing it all out helps me to see more clearly. So thanks for starting the thread, even if I appear to be derailing it. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ruth in NZ

I am on my phone and only have a moment, but wanted to reassure you there are no apologies necessary! I'm delighted with the layers and paths of the thread! They are all quite relevant!

[quark]

NM, might PM my question instead.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I would be curious to know the answer too!  I saw your post before you deleted it.  ;)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I tutor part time. I am not a homework helper; rather I fix messes for B&M students. I evaluate the student, create an annual plan, purchase separate materials, and set separate homework. I basically run my students through an additional course in mathematics or science tailored to them. I am very effective and people pay me $4000 per course to remediate. For my most advanced students, I make sure to prep the subject matter of my lessons LESS, because my goal is to teach them 'skills' not just the material. I need to make sure I don't know all the answers, that I have to look them up, so I can model these skills. For one girl, we are learning organic chemistry together. I have not taken it in more than 25 years. So we agree to our homework, text eachother encouragement, and come back together to compare our work. I show her a great website I have found with awesome flow chart diagrams, she sends me a video on bonding. When I started memorizing all the reactions by writing the flowchart from memory over and over, she said 'oh, that's a great idea, I'll try it.' Only when it is clear that she is seriously stumped will I tell her, hey, lets wait on this until next week, because I need to go learn this material so I can be your teacher on this rather than your co-learner. Then I go and predigest all the material, and make it into easy spoon-fed knowledge.

 

People pay me to be a co-learner. For my best students, I teach study skills by modeling rather than being a teacher from on high, and it works. It is very motivating to them to see how hard I have to work, to see how I handle frustrations, to see that even very learned adults don't get it on the first try. I am not just a friend muddling through, because I know *how* to study, be it analyzing the tests for *how* an answer should be worded, or be it finding alternative study methods if the first way won't work. I suggest youtube videos, flash cards, cornell notes, rewriting notes, reorganising notes, outlining in the book, outlining on paper, integrating book notes with class notes, using colour, drawing diagrams, studying in blocks, studying in tiny chunks, getting exercise, taking breaks, etc. I teach these kids metacognition skills -- how to evalute their own learning, how to know they don't know the material, how to adjust/adapt to limitations, how to accept who they are. End the end, if I *teach* her chemistry, that is all I have done. 1 subject. If I teacher her study skills *using* chemistry, she can fish for life.

 

I just reread this, and it feels a bit braggy. :tongue_smilie: All I am trying to say is that you are NOT doing a student a disservice by being a co-learner. In my books, if you do it right, it is way more effective for some students than being a traditional teacher.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

I think the last sentence is key. For some students. I think some teachers would apply as well. For some combinations of students and teachers it would be a disaster. Ask me how I know. ;)

 

I still remember the pivotal moment when I decided that co-learning was no longer the best route for our family. We were studying Spanish, and my dd was waiting for me to tell her if what she was saying was correct or not. I was learning with her; how would I know? I could spend time breaking down what she said to see if it was grammatically correct, perhaps. Would I know if it was truly the correct or typical way the phrase is used? No. Could I do it as quickly as she needed me to? No way. Did I enjoy this situation? Did she? The thought that struck me was:

 

"This is absurd."

 

I couldn't get it out of my mind. Within a few days she was chattering along happily with a native Spanish speaker. DD was elated. In no way would I have been a better instructor for her.

 

We did chemistry together, but I wasn't really co-learning. It was a refresher course for me, learned from a different angle. We had lots of fun and enjoyed it. I also knew it would most likely be our last time doing science together in that way. I wasn't going to be able to teach her better than someone with an advanced degree in the branch of science being studied, years of experience in the field, and a passion for teaching the basics with the nuances that develop only after significant time in the trenches.

 

There are so many right ways to do this. A co-learner is useful for some students; having a teacher with a degree and years of related work experience is useful for others. In some situations having a young teacher still in graduate school herself is the ideal. The students can relate to her and see in her some part of themselves and who they hope to become...

 

Both co-learning and outsourcing can also work for teaching a child to fish. One of the most surprising aspects of our first year outsourcing almost everything is how involved I still am, just in different ways. Actually, in many respects it feels much the same way it did in the early years. For that, I'm grateful. We now spend much more time discussing, laughing, and enjoying studying together than we did toward the end of the co-learning years (aka late middle school). There was so much more tension and discord toward the end...

 

In the early years we would spend some time together doing studies, then I would take a stack of books outside. I would read either aloud or to myself while she explored and played. Sometimes she would take a book to read or request I read one to her. All of those long hours - scholé. In a form less altered than I had expected, they have returned.

 

I could go on and on about the unexpected magic of the high school years. So much has changed, but so much has remained the same - circling back to those early years. I never would have expected outsourcing would give us that gift.

 

Again, my point is not that everyone should outsource! Each family and teen is different! These are just musings I've had of late, partially as a result of pondering Ruth's posts.

 

She brings up another point - fishing for life. I feel very much the same way about how we are going about outsourcing. Sometimes I think that's been one of the most important aspects of the year so far.

 

Ruth, thanks again for sharing. It really prompted me to think and to realize some things I might not have realized otherwise!

[lewelma]

So totally agree with you.  All kids are different, all teachers are different, all families are different.  I have long since learned there is no one way that works in all situations.  I have outsourced DS's classes for music, mandarin, and math.  I help out with English, but he now has a teacher who has really helped ds to strive do his best in a subject that he has typically put last. He has been so pleased to have someone else's opinion besides mine.  The only subject I am co-learning is physics, because honestly he does not have any study skills that would allow him to do well on the exam.  A lot of kids figure it out on their own (I know Regentrude has described this in her daughter), and a lot of parents think it is a good idea to allow the child to fail so that he is motivated to change/improve study habits.  But for *this* kid, co-learning is the most efficient way to teach him skills that he does not appear to be able to acquire on his own very easily.  But I totally get where you are coming from.  

 

Ruth in NZ

[Woodland Mist Academy]

So totally agree with you. All kids are different, all teachers are different, all families are different. I have long since learned there is no one way that works in all situations. I have outsourced DS's classes for music, mandarin, and math. I help out with English, but he now has a teacher who has really helped ds to strive do his best in a subject that he has typically put last. He has been so pleased to have someone else's opinion besides mine. The only subject I am co-learning is physics, because honestly he does not have any study skills that would allow him to do well on the exam. A lot of kids figure it out on their own (I know Regentrude has described this in her daughter), and a lot of parents think it is a good idea to allow the child to fail so that he is motivated to change/improve study habits. But for *this* kid, co-learning is the most efficient way to teach him skills that he does not appear to be able to acquire on his own very easily. But I totally get where you are coming from.

 

Ruth in NZ

I hope you didn't think I was directing my post at you about studying physics with you son! That was not my intention at all! Again, all families are different. :)

 

Rereading your post, I think you were just making an observation. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was commenting in a negative way on the validity of your approach. :)