I am curious. If you took all the aid given to public colleges and added it to...

[Nan in Mass]

I am curious. If you took all the government and private aid given to state colleges, divided it up, and added that to the tuition and fees paid by students, would you get a number that is roughly equivalent to a similar private not-for-profit school's tuition and fees after you added in their aid? Or are state and private tuition and fees still radically different?

 

Nan

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't know--it would depend so much on the donor base and endowments in both places, and how they are used.

I'm not quite sure what you are asking: is it: do public universities spend more money (per pupil?) than private schools?  I assume we can ignore the for-profit schools, so basically, the non-profits schools should have expenditures which roughly equal their tuition + aid + endowments.  Or is it "is my student's portion of the tuition bill likely to be higher or lower at a private or public school"?

 

If the former, this is going to depend so much on the type of school -- a tiny private liberal arts school, where there are no TAs or adjuncts, and no enormous lecture classes is going to be much more expensive to run than a community college, with lots of low-paid adjuncts.  And, any online classes are going to be much, much cheaper to offer, which is probably why so many schools are offering them.  Comparing the price structure of, say, Sweet Briar College, with say, UT-Austin just isn't going to make much sense -- there are more significant differences than their public/private status.

 

If the latter, again, it really depends.  The tippy-top private schools tend to have endowments the size of the GDP of a small nation.  Harvard can easily fully fund the tuition of all its students with the interest from the endowment alone.  If, somehow, you can get into one of these schools, it may be the least expensive option.

[Arcadia]

Even for state schools, my impression is that the UC (University of California) system is better funded than the CSU (California State University) system. I haven't look at any published budgets so its purely impression.

Looking at similarly ranked local universities, UCB would consider my family income decent while Stanford would consider us poor enough. So at a certain family income level, private might be cheaper than state assuming child gets accepted.(family annual income < $150k range)

[Tsuga]

In my experience, for all but the most poor who are paying only symbolic amounts or nothing, private schools will offer enough aid to match state schools, but not more.

 

But at private schools, other things add up, so I would hope my own kids would find public universities good enough.

 

I am not talking about academic or sports scholarships. The truly exceptional child, the one in 10,000, hopefully would get good offers from both state and private universities.

[Gwen in VA]

 

But at private schools, other things add up, so I would hope my own kids would find public universities good enough.

 

What kind of things add up at a private uni that don't add up at a public one?

[Teachin'Mine]

Nan I get what you're asking and I've wondered the same.  Basically does a public college education cost about the same as private college education.  Of course there's a good bit of difference even among the privates, but are they in the same range if you add in the state and federal aid.  Even many private colleges say that the actual cost per student is more than they charge for tuition, fees and room and board, so looking at what they charge may not be the whole picture either.  Would be interesting to read about this as I'm sure someone has worked the numbers.

[Nan in Mass]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking: is it: do public universities spend more money (per pupil?) than private schools? I assume we can ignore the for-profit schools, so basically, the non-profits schools should have expenditures which roughly equal their tuition + aid + endowments. Or is it "is my student's portion of the tuition bill likely to be higher or lower at a private or public school"?

 

If the former, this is going to depend so much on the type of school -- a tiny private liberal arts school, where there are no TAs or adjuncts, and no enormous lecture classes is going to be much more expensive to run than a community college, with lots of low-paid adjuncts. And, any online classes are going to be much, much cheaper to offer, which is probably why so many schools are offering them. Comparing the price structure of, say, Sweet Briar College, with say, UT-Austin just isn't going to make much sense -- there are more significant differences than their public/private status.

 

If the latter, again, it really depends. The tippy-top private schools tend to have endowments the size of the GDP of a small nation. Harvard can easily fully fund the tuition of all its students with the interest from the endowment alone. If, somehow, you can get into one of these schools, it may be the least expensive option.

The first. I always assumed that the same sort of education cost about the same at not-for-profit schools, whether it the schools were private or public, and that the differences in student cost came down to federal and state aid and endowments, the key point being same sort of education. I know it cost schools a lot more to educate my three sons, with the tons of lab equipment they needed, han it did to educate their English major cousin, for example. We did a really really rough calculation of how much our youngest was costing his school and actually came up with a figure very close to the 60k/year price. (Thank goodness for scholarships grin.) The older two probably cost schools even more. But then I began to wonder. How much are the undergraduates supporting the research done by grad students and profs? People keep talking about schools not being able to afford to drop football. Where does that come in? Are there a lot of other factors I haven,t considered? Major things, not minor ones. Or maybe there are a ton of minor ones that add up?

 

Nan

[raptor_dad]

Here is an easy data point for medical schools...

 

Minnesota barely subsidizes med school in state and not at all for oos... in state tuition is ~$38K OOS is ~$50k. OOS med school is $46k at UNC. For comparison Duke and Harvard are both around $53K. Not that much of a difference. In this case it looks like the real cost is roughly the same between the public and private schools.

[regentrude]

In my experience, for all but the most poor who are paying only symbolic amounts or nothing, private schools will offer enough aid to match state schools, but not more.

 

Not generally. It depends on whether your EFC is higher than public in state tuition or not

Even with generous aid from DD's private college, it is significantly more expensive than public in state.

[regentrude]

. How much are the undergraduates supporting the research done by grad students and profs?

 

Not a penny!

 

A public university does not give professors any budget for research or for employing graduate students. Every penny anybody in our department spends on research  comes from external funding. Professors who are not lucky enough to obtain grant funding have no funds for equipment, computers, grad students or post docs.

The grad students who are not paid through research are paid by the department to teach labs or recitations. In our department, those funds are earned from the department offering summer courses, in which case we are allowed to keep the tuition in the department (all other tuition goes into a school wide pot).

[regentrude]

 I always assumed that the same sort of education cost about the same at not-for-profit schools, whether it the schools were private or public, and that the differences in student cost came down to federal and state aid and endowments, the key point being same sort of education

 

I do not think that assumption is correct. Salaries differ widely, and the quality of resources differs widely, too - the equipment in the teaching labs, for example, or the library.. let alone buildings and classrooms.

My DD's private university is far better equipped than the public university at which I teach, because we have to everything on the cheap.

[1Togo]

Doesn't this vary? For example, dd is looking at three unis in our city - a private, Jesuit college with 90% med-school acceptance, a private, Christian u, and a state u with med school (not top tier). Without any additional aid or scholarship beyond the ACT score, dd currently will have to pay less at the private Jesuit college, which is $10,000 more per year than the private, Christian u, and $30,000 more than the state u. However, if dd raises her ACT a few points and qualifies for aid through FASA, then the state u is free. With audition scholarship, the Christian univ may be close to free.  With money from an on-campus competition, the Jesuit college will be almost free. So many factors to consider.

[Nan in Mass]

Not a penny!

 

A public university does not give professors any budget for research or for employing graduate students. Every penny anybody in our department spends on research comes from external funding. Professors who are not lucky enough to obtain grant funding have no funds for equipment, computers, grad students or post docs.

The grad students who are not paid through research are paid by the department to teach labs or recitations. In our department, those funds are earned from the department offering summer courses, in which case we are allowed to keep the tuition in the department (all other tuition goes into a school wide pot).

Grants. Of course. I knew that. Brain blip lol.

 

Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I do not think that assumption is correct. Salaries differ widely, and the quality of resources differs widely, too - the equipment in the teaching labs, for example, or the library.. let alone buildings and classrooms.

My DD's private university is far better equipped than the public university at which I teach, because we have to everything on the cheap.

Yes. But I wouldn,t consider them equivalent. Not at all. I was thinking of colleges that had similar profs, similar grounds and equipment, similar environmental challenges (like higher property taxes or land prices). I am quite sure youngest,s college is making available to him more lab equipment and educational opportunities,, for example, than some equivalent sized public schools offering engineering degrees. (I happen to think it is a good thing that BOTH minimalist and more elaborate degrees are available.)

 

Does your school have any statistics on its costs per student per year for various degrees? Or rather, are those something available to the general public?

 

Nan

We did a really really rough calculation of how much our youngest was costing his school and actually came up with a figure very close to the 60k/year price.

 

I can't imagine how to even begin to come up with this number -- how did you do it?

[Gwen in VA]

The funny thing is that I had always thought science was a more expensive area and humanities were less expensive for colleges.

 

I'm finding out the analysis isn't so simple -- as a music major, dd has lots of hands-on classes with 6 or 7 students. It takes a lot of profs to provide those classes! Also, the cost of instruments is a huge issue. While violinists bring their instruments, organists and others who play "odd" instruments often have them provided. (One college had a leak in their instrument storage facility, which is how this issue came to my attention -- the loss was quite significant!) And one nice organ will run in the millions.

 

 

[Nan in Mass]

I can't imagine how to even begin to come up with this number -- how did you do it?

Well, as I said, it was really rough grin. My husband is involved with lots of small tech companies, so he has a good idea of the costs of some of, say, a lab. We guessed atrof saleries, etc. We know the number of students. The number mounted up fast enough that we wound up feeling better about that 60k number. Don,t most people guestimate to see if something is a reasonable price?

 

Nan

Well, as I said, it was really rough grin. My husband is involved with lots of small tech companies, so he has a good idea of the costs of some of, say, a lab. We guessed atrof saleries, etc. We know the number of students. The number mounted up fast enough that we wound up feeling better about that 60k number. Don,t most people guestimate to see if something is a reasonable price?

 

Nan

 

Let's say your ds has 4 classes in a semester, each taught by a full professor.  Assume that each professor has 100 students total s/he teaches across all the sections they teach.  In each class, your student would consume 1% of the teaching cost, for a total of 4% of one professor.  However, a research professor is generally not paid to teach undergrads 100% of their time -- they need to supervise graduate students, and do their own funded research.  Undergraduate tuition may go to fund instructional labs, but research labs are generally paid from federal grants.

 

As far as the rest of the costs -- buildings and libraries and grounds and IT and all the other stuff, I have no idea how to estimate those.

[JanetC]

Related article on public college funding: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septemberoctober_2015/features/can_this_man_save_the_public_u057184.php

 

 

[EmilyGF]

A problem in my husband's private university department is that grad students don't have many requirements for classes (they just made a major cut to the number required to focus more on research) but professors are still required to teach the same number of classes. Also, they have many very-very-part time faculty (ones who know they get more respect by adding the university to their name when they write papers) who are required to teach a full load. 

 

It is the lucky professor who can pull in more than 4-6 students in a class. 

Emily

[JanetC]

 

It is the lucky professor who can pull in more than 4-6 students in a class. 

Emily

 

Just curious:  What do professors consider to be an ideal number of students to have in a class?

 

[regentrude]

Just curious:  What do professors consider to be an ideal number of students to have in a class?

 

That depends entirely on the class.

 

For an upper level graduate course on special topics (which is the scenario Emily was referring to), anything below 8 is little because that changes the dynamics. 10 is a good size, but at many institutions not attainable since there aren't enough grad students who want to study this special topic. A class size of 3-5 is not really a "class"; it's more like small group individual instruction.

 

For an upper level undergrad course in physics that is project based, or for a discussion heavy humanities class, 20 is a nice number. Too few, and you don't have lively discussion or all projects covered; too many and not everybody gets to speak and you run out of individualized projects to assign. And if the assignments are essays, 20 would be bearable... 50 essays on a  similar topic will fry the instructor's brain (or she needs a TA)

 

For an intro undergrad course (which I teach), I like class sizes between 30 and 50. This allows me to know all students by name and face after two weeks, which alters the dynamics from a faceless crowd of anonymous students to a more personalized situation where everybody is feeling accountable. We can do small group activities, and I can still walk around and discuss with all groups, and get to know my students. I have learned to make it work with 60-90, but that is not ideal.

But I know that some professors are not able to learn the names of 60 students and form personal connections, nor are they interested in doing so - their answer might be a different one.

 

Anything above 100 loses the personal component, unless you can split them off into smaller sections.

 500 is not something any instructor considers desirable (we still do our best).

 

It is the lucky professor who can pull in more than 4-6 students in a class. 

 

 

But, I think the above would be very unusual for undergraduate classes, especially the first couple of years.  Many colleges have a policy where there needs to be a minimum number of students enrolled in an undergraduate class for it to "make", or else it is cancelled. 

[regentrude]

But, I think the above would be very unusual for undergraduate classes, especially the first couple of years.  Many colleges have a policy where there needs to be a minimum number of students enrolled in an undergraduate class for it to "make", or else it is cancelled. 

 

But Emily was talking specifically about graduate students:

 

 

A problem in my husband's private university department is that grad students don't have many requirements for classes (they just made a major cut to the number required to focus more on research) but professors are still required to teach the same number of classes

 

Of course undergrad classes, even at her DH's school, have more students.

 

ETA: We have the same issue at our public university. We can only offer a few special graduate (or even special topics upper level undergrad) courses each semester, because the numbers of students wanting to take the classes are small. We may not run any undergrad course if less than ten students are signed up. For grad students, the cutoff is 3. (Our department is small, with only 18 faculty, 40 grad students, and 80 undergrad majors.)

OTOH, much of our department's teaching is service teaching for other departments, and I have between 500 and 600 students per semester in my engineering physics course.

 

[EmilyGF]

But, I think the above would be very unusual for undergraduate classes, especially the first couple of years.  Many colleges have a policy where there needs to be a minimum number of students enrolled in an undergraduate class for it to "make", or else it is cancelled. 

At a private university, I took an undergrad class with 3 students. We met in the professor's office and she took us out to tea one week (the class was "Wharton and James"). I had classes with up to 80 or so (after the first few freshman year). Most of my classes were around 20-40. The larger ones had excellent TAs who knew how to teach well and were passionate about it. Some have gone into teaching oriented careers instead of research.

 

I asked my husband about a class minimum. He's unaware of any minimum number of students for graduate or undergrad. For him, a too small class is frustrating because there is still a ton of prep work but the atmosphere is very different. He said, "I think a class might get canceled if less than one student signed up..."

 

Emily