Civil Engineering - what to expect?

[dauphin]

DD12 has floated the possibility of Civil Engineering as a future career aspiration. I'd love it if I could have some feedback about what to expect. DH and I both have advanced degrees but were in the Life Sciences primarily (at least in undergraduate - we both ended up with professional degrees). So for all that we are science-y people, that area is sort of foreign to us.

 

If you have the time, I have a few questions:

 

-Overall, are Civ Eng programs competitive to get into?

-What high school science and math sequence would a well-prepared applicant have?

-Should she expect to put time into advanced degrees and/or training? Does that depend on her goals? (She isn't uptight about salary but has a leadership personality so I think she would prefer to lead and not be led, if that matters.)

-"You should enjoy subjects like ___ and/or ___ in school."

-"You should enjoy doing things like _____ because you'll be doing that on the job most days...."

-"You wouldn't want to do Civ Eng if ________"

 

and I wish I didn't have to ask these questions but:

 

-This field of engineering appears to be heavily related to construction - is this a heavily male-dominated field and should she be prepared to run into some issues (as I have heard about with Comp Sci female students)?

-Similarly, having a family someday is also a priority for her - are there positions in the field that can be family-friendly (or at least not anti-spending-time-with-family), and/or not put her at risk for major career backtracking if she should desire to spend a few years working part time or not at all when having young kids?

 

TIA!

 

If you want to offer any feedback on our current science plans, they are (very tentatively -it is actively evolving right now):

 

7th: Rainbow Science (compacting both years? - DD has spent a lot of time on Physical Science content and begun Chemistry content through Supercharged Science the last two years).

8th: Conceptual Physics

9th: Chemistry (Honors?)

10th: Biology (Honors?)

11th: Physics (AP?)

12th: ?

 

As far as math sequence, I'd say it's hard to predict. We have mucked about and haven't gotten past Pre-Algebra in the 2 years since we started homeschooling despite the fact that DD was conceptually ready for much of Algebra when we pulled her out of school in the middle of 4th grade. We had a few gaps in content to cover but I wasn't very good at figuring out how to efficiently identify and cover them. We have started several different Pre-Algebra programs but finally found our comfort zone with AoPS online (I think the accountability to an outside source was the ticket to success. I suspect boredom (with delivery/style) was also a factor in the past switches between Pre-A programs). So if she does the accelerated pacing by taking the short AoPS online courses, she could fit several courses in at a pretty rapid pace and still have time for the supplementary content like C&P and Number Theory). But she does NOT like doubling up on programs. She -might- tolerate doing Geometry concurrently with Alg I or II if we do something like 2 days/week of each but that would require slowing the pace and doing perhaps a year-long program of each over two years. Which concerns me regarding the potential for boredom.

 

She will finish AoPS's Pre-Algebra 1 in September. She is finding it very easy to manage, although I would hope so since much of it is review. 

 

Edit: remembered some more questions I was wanting to ask....

 

 

 

[Pegasus]

I have a civil engineering degree and will answer your questions to the best of my ability.

 

-Overall, are Civ Eng programs competitive to get into?

 

This is highly dependent on the school and varies from a guaranteed spot with specific credentials to highly competitive even for top students.  Plan to have a safety school or two if your student decides to try for some of the more competitive engineering department schools. 

 

-What high school science and math sequence would a well-prepared applicant have?

 

Needs to be very solid through at least pre-calculus. Most engineering programs have calculus as the freshman math. It's great to have calculus in high school but not an absolute requirement.  Needs to be ready to take calculus for certain or will be behind from the get-go.  I'd emphasize chemistry and physics more than biology.

 

-Should she expect to put time into advanced degrees and/or training? Does that depend on her goals? (She isn't uptight about salary but has a leadership personality so I think she would prefer to lead and not be led, if that matters.)

 

Definitely depends on her goals. I went for my master's degree immediately after getting my B.S. in civil engineering because I wanted to do environmental engineering, which was only offered as a grad program at my school.  You can certainly get a job with a B.S. in civil.

 

-"You should enjoy subjects like ___ and/or ___ in school."

 

Definitely math and to a lesser extent, science.  I wouldn't even say that you need to enjoy it.  You should be capable in it and not hate it, certainly.

 

-"You should enjoy doing things like _____ because you'll be doing that on the job most days...."

 

Wow. I wish I could answer this.  It is HIGHLY dependent on the area of specialty within civil engineering and the type of job you take (government, private, academia, etc.).  Currently, I spend a lot of my day writing (proposals, test plans, technical reports, progress reports, social media articles, publication articles, etc.) In my first job, I did a lot of field sampling (streamwater, soil samples, groundwater, air samples, etc) that had me working outdoors. 

 

-"You wouldn't want to do Civ Eng if ________"

 

You hate math. You don't like to study. You want an easy major. 

 

This field of engineering appears to be heavily related to construction - is this a heavily male-dominated field and should she be prepared to run into some issues (as I have heard about with Comp Sci female students)?

 

Again, civil engineering is one of the broader engineering fields: construction, water resources, wastewater treatment, environmental engineering, etc.  Certain sub-specialties are more heavily male-dominated than others.  I had other women in all of my courses and that was *cough* *cough* years ago.  I've worked with plenty of women in the workforce.  

 

-Similarly, having a family someday is also a priority for her - are there positions in the field that can be family-friendly (or at least not anti-spending-time-with-family), and/or not put her at risk for major career backtracking if she should desire to spend a few years working part time or not at all when having young kids?

 

In general, not super family friendly.  My jobs have required travel (sometimes being away for weeks at a time) and I can remember traveling with a breastpump after my first was born. This was very hard on my DH, as you can imagine, and I hated to be away when the kids were very young. I'm fortunate now to be traveling much less and never more than a week at a time.  It can be difficult to negotiate part-time positions and, to be honest, I haven't really seen much of that. It's tough to take time off and then get back into the workforce (this is generally true in most professions, not impossible, but tough).

 

I hope that helps and I'd be happy to answer any additional questions you or your DD may have.

 

[amy58103]

This ended up being bit long, but you had some great questions!  And, of course, its a topic I'm partial too ;)  

 

-Overall, are Civ Eng programs competitive to get into?

The competitiveness of a Civil Engineering program is proportional to the competitiveness of the University … getting into MIT’s civil engineering program is much more competitive than getting into your local state university.  As long as your daughter has solid grades/test scores in math and physics, and completes the other standard high school requirements, I would not be concerned about getting into a respectable civil engineering program.  (A good starting point for finding a respectable civil engineering program would be to look at the top 100 national universities as listed by US News.)

 

 

-What high school science and math sequence would a well-prepared applicant have?

For math, the traditional math sequence through at least Pre-Calculus is a must, completing calculus will make her first year of college easier but isn't a must.  A strong understanding on how to use algebra and trig is essential … don’t rush through these courses just to get to calculus on the transcript.

 

For science, most university’s will want to see the traditional biology, chemistry, and physics sequence.  Go for the honors route when available.  If there is time for AP science courses, I would prioritize AP Physics C and AP Chemistry. 

 

I would strongly recommend finding room in her schedule for AP Computer Science (or a similar course, doesn’t necessarily have to be an AP course).  AP Statistics and AP Economics would also be nice electives, but not necessary. 

 

Please don’t overlook the importance of written and oral communication!  Lots of practice writing essays (across the curriculum, not just literary analysis) and delivering oral presentations is very important. 

 

 

-Should she expect to put time into advanced degrees and/or training? Does that depend on her goals? (She isn't uptight about salary but has a leadership personality so I think she would prefer to lead and not be led, if that matters.)

To be a “practicing†civil engineer (responsible for designing and managing projects), you need a Professional Engineer (PE) License.  Here are the steps to get that:

1.       Graduate from an accredited engineering program.

2.       Pass the Fundamentals of Engineer exam (8hr test covering everything from math to economics to engineering, and is usually taken during the senior year of Bachelor’s study).

3.       Work for 4 years under the guidance of a Professional Engineer, after graduating with a Bachelor’s degree and passing the FE exam.

4.       Apply to your local state board to sit for the Professional Engineer’s exam (which includes several character / engineering work references and a detailed project/work history).

5.       Pass the Processional Engineer’s exam (4 hr morning session covering all of civil engineering and 4 hr afternoon session covering your chosen specially with more depth, eg. structural, geotechnical, transportation, etc.)

6.       For the duration of your career, take continuing education courses.  The required amount varies by state, but usually one graduate course, a couple of weekend courses, OR 5-10 short seminars per year.  Most companies cover the cost of these courses.

 

So, right now, an advanced degree is not required.  About half the engineer’s I work with have a master’s degree and about half stopped with a bachelor’s degree.  Very few “practicing†civil engineers have a PhD … if I had to guess, I would say about 5%. 

 

There is some talk of making a master’s degree a requirement for the PE License.  Because of this, and the fact that a master’s degree does give you an edge when applying for jobs, I usually recommend someone just starting out to plan on getting one.  Many universities are starting to offer a 5-year bachelors/master’s degree … I highly recommend doing this if it is available.   A lot of engineers work on their master’s degrees part-time while working and most companies will cover 50-75% of the tuition costs.  Or a traditional 2-year master’s immediately following a bachelor’s degree is an option.  Many civil engineers get a master’s degree in project management since there is so much overlap between project management and civil engineering (and since you say your daughter likes to lead, this is a path she may eventually want to pursue).

 

 

-"You should enjoy subjects like ___ and/or ___ in school."

She should be good at math and physics, but doesn't necessarily have to "love" them.   She should enjoy anything that is based in problem-solving … not just “math†problems, but things like: how do I fix the clogged drain, what’s the fastest way to get from point A to point B, etc.

 

 

-"You should enjoy doing things like _____ because you'll be doing that on the job most days...."

Solving problems.  Communicating with people.  Working on teams.  Learning new things.  Reading. 

 

 

-"You wouldn't want to do Civ Eng if ________"

You don’t like interacting with people.  You don’t like to get your hands dirty (figuratively and literally!)

 

 

-This field of engineering appears to be heavily related to construction - is this a heavily male-dominated field and should she be prepared to run into some issues (as I have heard about with Comp Sci female students)?

The majority of civil engineers are still males, but I’ve never, ever, once felt that being a female put me at a disadvantage!!!  Being a female is not viewed as “weird or unusual†in civil engineering.  She will need to be comfortable interacting with men. And she will need confidence when interacting with contractors / senior engineers, but this is true for any engineer, male or female.  From my viewpoint, this is really a non-issue … although I totally get why you had to ask because from the outside it can look intimidating. 

 

 

-Similarly, having a family someday is also a priority for her - are there positions in the field that can be family-friendly (or at least not anti-spending-time-with-family), and/or not put her at risk for major career backtracking if she should desire to spend a few years working part time or not at all when having young kids?

This depends a lot on what path you take, but every private engineering firm I have worked for was VERY family friendly and I’m surprised there aren’t more women in civil engineering precisely for this reason.  The hours tend to be very flexible … if you need to leave early to go a doctor’s appointment, you can just make up the time by coming in early or leaving late on another day.  Every firm I’ve worked with has also let people work from home as needed … many of my male counterparts work from home when their kids are home sick from school because their wives (who are teachers, nurses, etc.) can’t take the day off from work.  Although, I would say that most of flexibility occurs after you have a PE licence (the first couple of years an engineer is mostly doing the grunt work that doesn't have as much flexibility).

 

I’ve known several women who worked part-time during their child rearing years … usually they didn’t take on more senior roles while working part time, but it allowed them to keep pace with the industry and once/if they did return to full-time work they could usually jump up into more senior roles.   Taking a few years off can be a bit problematic because the standard of practice can change a lot over a couple of years.  It can be done though if that is truly what she wants ... I would suggest getting her bachelors, working for 4 years, getting her PE and then taking time off for children When she’s ready to re-enter, she may also want to first get her master’s degree to make her resume look more "current" to prospective employers.

 

 

Feedback on our current science plans

If she will be taking calculus in 12^th grade, I would plan on taking AP Calculus C in 12^th. Otherwise, I would plan on an Honors Algebra-based Physics (AP Physics 1 & 2 are bit wonky in my opinion and I wouldn’t bother with them).  I would add in AP Chemistry as your 4^th high school science course.

 

 

As far as math sequence, I'd say it's hard to predict … She will finish AoPS's Pre-Algebra 1 in September. She is finding it very easy to manage, although I would hope so since much of it is review. 

Things like C&P and Number theory are really not necessary … as you said, they are supplementary.  I would only “accelerate†the pace if she is truly understanding everything.  And while AOPS is a great program for the right student, it is NOT the only path for a future engineer.  Any honors level high school / entry-level college textbook will be more than adequate.  And while understanding the theory of Math (which AOPS focuses on) is great … math is a tool for engineers, knowing how to use it is more important than knowing why it works.

[Sunshine State Sue]

-Similarly, having a family someday is also a priority for her - are there positions in the field that can be family-friendly (or at least not anti-spending-time-with-family), and/or not put her at risk for major career backtracking if she should desire to spend a few years working part time or not at all when having young kids?

 

The PPs have given you terrific feedback.  I'll add in my 2c about work-life balance, though I'm not in the civil engineering field.

 

I have a bachelor's degree in math and computer studies (similar to computer science but a BA instead of a BS).  I have a master's degree in industrial engineering.  I knew many moons ago that work was not where I wanted to spend 60hrs/wk.  When I married, I kept my eyes and ears open for opportunities (at my large company) that could turn into part-time work.  I demonstrated qualities (responsibility, thoroughness, flexibility, etc) that would make a company want to keep me, even if it meant keeping me only 20hrs/wk.  I worked 20hrs/wk for 12 years after ds was born.  Unfortunately, after that, I had to increase my hours to 30hrs/wk in order to maintain health benefits (dh has none).  I've worked from home for 13 years now half a continent away from the home office I started at 26 years ago.  It can be done.  Honestly, I think part of why it works, though, is that I am not very ambitious.  I work on old systems that the young whipper snappers don't want to touch. :laugh:

 

OTOH, I know many women engineers who have dropped out or are burned out.  This was an interesting story to listen to:

Many Women Leave Engineering, Blame The Work Culture

 

Good luck to your dd!

[Scarlett]

My dh isn't an engineer but his degree is in civil engineering. He doesn't have a bachelors......he is in between a draftsman and an engineer. He has a background heavy in construction. He hurt himself on the job when he was 32 and retrained. His current job title is Civil Planner. He is super smart in math....and he "gets" how things work.

[Arcadia]

I graduated in civil engineering and then did postgrad in computer engineering. Both were male dominated fields in MNCs that I worked at.

 

Having done calculus first at high school was useful. Makes first year college less stressful. Having strong foundation in physics is essential.

 

The civil engineering field is wide ranging. I did my final year project thesis in traffic planning and did my internship in offshore (oil) engineering.

 

I'll take it a step at a time. I wanted to be an engineer or an architect. Couldn't pass the paper and pencil drawing aptitude test for school of architecture so engineering it is. Then it was choosing what field. I would have been happy in any of the engineering fields so that was easy for me. After starting work, I found the management track suits me much better than the technical track so ended up in project management. Stopped working when oldest was born. Would be hard to go back as an engineer to the workforce for me now except through connections (employee referral program).

 

ETA:

It would be easier if dependable childcare is available both for male and females. Many married males civil engineers I worked with have parents/in-laws who can be backup childcare if they have to work overtime. Someone have to fetch the kids from childcare and many times conference calls had starting times at 6pm. It is possible to leave early, grab kids from childcare and do the conference calls at home. But sometimes you (general) are just stuck at project meetings back to back.

 

Hubby's lady cousin is a desk bound civil engineer in the public sector. Pay is stable but stagnant. She doesn't mind since little to no overtime and no traveling.

 

ETA:

Being a self employed engineer is very family friendly if she is able to do it. My cousins who run family businesses are mainly from mechanical and electrical engineering. My uncles have a room in their factories that is a nursery room just for their DILs and grandkids to hang out :)

[8filltheheart]

I know nothing about civil engineering in particular, but dh and 2 ds's have majored in an engineering field. Here are my random suggestions.

 

I would postpone biology until 11th. I would take AP chem in 10th. If I understood correctly, she is going to be taking alg 1 in 7th. That will allow her to take cal in 11th. She could take 2 semesters of cal physics in 12th. Taking AP chem and cal physics will let her explore those topics prior to college.

 

I would approach 7th grade science completely differently. I would use 7th as a yr of reading about and exploring civil engineering as a career, as well as other fields that appeal to her. (I wonder if you might be able to find some female engineers who would let her shadow them for a few days. I would also contact the Society of Women Engineers for resources. http://societyofwomenengineers.swe.org/k-12-outreach)There is absolutely no reason to double up on a formal science program in 7th, especially if she already has a solid physical science background.

[dauphin]

Thank you so much for all the advice! This was SUPER helpful. I have a friend who told me that she works at a firm with a bunch of civil engineers so we could probably make an IRL connection there at some point.

 

I take your suggestions very much to heart, 8, but I have to tell you that when I sat down to go over the information I gained from this thread, DD was squirmy and looking bored by the end...I'm not sure she's ready to dig THAT deep on career choices. :)

[plansrme]

I have an acquaintance who is a civil engineer working part-time from home. She homeschools her kids in her spare time. She turns down work and says that her former employer (she is a contractor for them now) is always trying to get her to come back because they need women. So for her, at least, it has been easy to scale back and should be easy to scale back up when she is ready.