HOD middle school - CTC and higher

[MrsMe]

So could it be then that the parents (or myself, really)  are expecting more for the age level than is what's "normal"?

[Wildwood]

I am currently using CTC with my oldest who is 11 and in 5th grade.  I am also using Beyond with a 2nd grader.  My 3rd grader has been participating some in both.  All three of my children have used Rod and Staff English since 2nd grade, so they came into HOD with that background this year.  They also came in with a background of having done some written & oral narrations, and much copy work and dictation.

 

The comments below are going to be focused on my experience with CTC.

 

Hmmm...from everything I had read on the HOD board I honestly expected an advanced program.  I wouldn't say that is what we have found.  In fact, the more I have done of CTC the more surprised I have been by what the program really is versus what I thought it would be.  I have also been very surprised that the end of the TM is not any harder then Unit 1.  With all of the skill building discussed around HOD, I really did expect and think skills would build within the guide.  When I look at RTR it really doesn't look any further then CTC; so I am missing where the real skill building is taking place.

 

I wouldn't say it is grade worthy, except maybe in the amount of work and work load.  The program doesn't lack in the number of assignments.  It lacks though in rigor, depth of thought, and an application of thought to the study of history or written narration or literature.  The questions are very basic for my kids, and I expected them to be pulling more depth out of the study of the Old and New Testaments.  

 

I think though instead of giving a review, I will share the main comments my 5th grade son has made regarding the program from his experience of doing it.

 

*The narration box provided in the note book pages has frustrated him due to its small space.  The written narration is supposed to be 5 - 8 sentences.  He likes to use adjectives and adverbs to give descriptions of the subject he is discussing in his writing.  His sentences tend to be compound sentences so they are much longer then a second or third grader might provide.  Between these two realities in his writing the box provided is much too SMALL.  His written narrations have mostly been 3 - 4 sentences, and he writes very small Italic on lines that he inserts into the box with a ruler.  This fills the box, and thus his written narrations have been limited in length by the space provided.  The amount of space does not even allow him to complete the assignment given.

 

*The time-line is fairly basic for the OT and NT.  This was frustrating to him since he knew many more events in both books of the Bible then is mentioned in the program.

 

*He liked the Greek and Rome books.  He rather read the actual Scriptures, then Christine Miller for the OT.  Fortunately for the NT the actual Scriptures are used, and he prefers that.

 

*His main comment though has been he thinks the program lacks depth and has many assignments, but none that require thinking.  He says that in many ways it has made it more difficult to do because it doesn't make him think.  Since it isn't requiring him to think he ends up bored and then he says that it is harder to make himself do the work since it isn't engaging him like other home school work has done.  This is a child though who started oral narrations at 6, has voluntarily orally narrated books for years, is an avid reader, and it doesn't take a lot of thought to tell about something he has read.  What would take a lot of thought is the next level of thinking that he is needing to start engaging in.  I actually bought this program with the thought it would help take his thinking to that next step.  I believe Susan Bauer calls it the logic stage.  He is ready to start thinking more deeply, comparing and contrasting, and developing reasons for why he believes what he believes.  He really needs to be thinking through issues as he enters the middle grades, and this program felt like it was holding him back.  As I have looked at RTR - MTMM to see if they would be better for 6th I am not getting the impression they would be.  They would add more work, but I am not seeing how they would add more thinking or beginning analysis.  I had this impression that HOD devolved into real thinking, and was a program full of rigor.  I was very mistaken.  I don't consider busy work rigor, but just more work like they had us do in school! :huh: I think HOD has a lot of public school elements and scope and sequence that isn't honors level.  I thought it would be more CM, and there are a lot of CM elements.  The public school scope and sequence, which is lower expectations then I have, surprised me.  I still love a lot of her books picks though!  However, definitely not all of them.

 

I don't know if this is what anyone was looking for in an answer, but I thought I would bump you up because I am interested in hearing what others have to say too.  :lurk5:

 

I am not planning on continuing on with HOD next year.  Faith & Jesus Christ & Bible as the center of our home school has always been the most important part for us, but we really do need academic rigor as well.  Hopefully, I can figure out a way to have both.  :)

Reading through your son's comments and his abilities as you expressed, regarding CTC, it sounds like he was possibly placed incorrectly in the CTC guide.  I wonder if placing him in RTR or higher would have been a better fit?

[SparrowsNest]

I just wanted to chime in real quick and say I do not agree with the majority of what has been posted to this thread. ;) I have used Little Hands-RTR(some guides multiple times). I also have Rev to Rev on my shelf. I can not comment on the high school guides because I have never seen them. Honestly I have no experience yet teaching high school, so I'm not going to go there other than to say there is no way they are 6th grade level work.  :lol: The middle school guides do progress in skill each year and are not equal in difficulty. The history narrations get longer and more in depth with each guide and there is added written output with each guide in multiple boxes. The research, science, and discussions questions are also more in depth with each guide. R&S itself is already a complete English curriculum and then there is added writing programs. You can easily use any writing curriculum you desire, it even says that right in the LA box. I also don't agree that there isn't any higher level thinking. If your kid isn't remembering anything they read I think that is a separate issue from HOD. Perhaps history isn't their thing or they need to work on reading comprehension skills. I really don't want to get into a fight with anyone about this. If HOD isn't your cup of tea don't use it, but there are plenty of people using it with great results. If you notice in this thread many people commenting have only used 1 guide or perhaps 2. For those who are looking into HOD and are feeling hesitant now. I encourage you to gather thoughts from multiple places and not just from a negative thread. It is a good thing there are so many different curriculum choices now so people can hopefully find something that fits their style and needs.   :001_smile:

 

Thanks for offering a different perspective. :)  I guess really everything boils down to what your goals are, and no curriculum can be all things to all people!   

 

If you can get your hands on the Narrations book by Sonja Shaefer from the SCM site  (if you like that method) I would utilize that and just increase the information. (SWB's writing lectures are also fantastic! and well worth the listen.)

 

 

I'll have to take a look at the Narrations book, and I've been meaning to listen to those SWB lectures (I've seen them recommended several times). Thanks!  

[cbollin]

So could it be then that the parents (or myself, really)  are expecting more for the age level than is what's "normal"?

 

I think that's a common thing in homeschooling the oldest.  We're just not sure.  I certainly wasn't.  Yet with all of the struggles, worries, fears, etc...  and even negative talk on forums about stuff I picked to use (not HOD by the way), my oldest has thrived academically in college this year.  can I brag? thanks.  4.0, with full load both semesters.   even got A in English composition in spite of my lack of knowledge how to teach writing!  I did ask friends and husband to help with editing and making suggestions.   We did a less than perfect and less than ideal approach to check writing level:  we ran the flesch kincaid levels from our word processing.  that showed us that at least someone had to be at certain reading ability to read what she wrote.  Does that sound like anything in some book about how to get a solid writer? No.

 

not bad for double major elec. engineering and comp sci? right?  she also did very well in her humanities classes. (I liked how using Economics in a Box helped for that, but that's not the topic here....)

 

so what really helped her in college?  She had to learn to stay on track with a syllabus and meet deadlines.  Read the syllabus. read books.  have an opinion of her own.  and we told her over and over:  go to office hours and ask for help.    She was amazed that some friends she made in first semester who went to group schools (private and public) struggled with the idea of reading a syllabus and doing what it says.

 

if you want more insight into her English classes...  ask me.  you might think "what?? really?   what is it a junior college?"  nope....  but you might be surprised at what first semester composition was and was it was not.

 

by the way, I now understand what you were asking about the 5 extra books in the literature/english credit.  Maybe someone else answered this already and I missed that.  I'm old and need new bifocals so if someone said this already, I missed it. 

But my youngest was baking cookies last night and from that, I think I might understand HOD"s motivation for adding reading.  I reserve the right to be wrong on this.   I think it is not uncommon among homeschoolers who prefer classical or CM to want to read a complete novel as part of English credit.  BJU book is about studying "parts of literature analysis" across several authors and works.  So, I think HOD adds in "read these novels" to add in the missing FLAVOR in the purely textbook literature credit.   This is just like my youngest who made cookies last night.  The peanut butter cookies on their own were complete cookie.   But we had some chocolate chunks in the cabinet.  She wanted to add that FLAVOR in small bites to the batter.   and that's what's in my brain about adding 5 novels over the year in HOD while they schedule a textbook literature approach.

 

I could be wrong as I have not used HOD.   But that is what I'm seeing when I look at their website.   read complete novel instead of just textbook parts of novel to learn parts.  and now that I typed that out?  I remember that is how it was done in my advanced track classes and AP class in my own high school days.  We had our Textbook to use, but we had to read novels as well. 

 

again, I don't use HOD.  but some of the questions are general to homeschooling and wanted to share that looking back perspective now that I have one in college.

[KeriJ]

 

by the way, I now understand what you were asking about the 5 extra books in the literature/english credit.  Maybe someone else answered this already and I missed that.  I'm old and need new bifocals so if someone said this already, I missed it. 

But my youngest was baking cookies last night and from that, I think I might understand HOD"s motivation for adding reading.  I reserve the right to be wrong on this.   I think it is not uncommon among homeschoolers who prefer classical or CM to want to read a complete novel as part of English credit.  BJU book is about studying "parts of literature analysis" across several authors and works.  So, I think HOD adds in "read these novels" to add in the missing FLAVOR in the purely textbook literature credit.   This is just like my youngest who made cookies last night.  The peanut butter cookies on their own were complete cookie.   But we had some chocolate chunks in the cabinet.  She wanted to add that FLAVOR in small bites to the batter.   and that's what's in my brain about adding 5 novels over the year in HOD while they schedule a textbook literature approach.

 

I could be wrong as I have not used HOD.   But that is what I'm seeing when I look at their website.   read complete novel instead of just textbook parts of novel to learn parts.  and now that I typed that out?  I remember that is how it was done in my advanced track classes and AP class in my own high school days.  We had our Textbook to use, but we had to read novels as well. 

 

again, I don't use HOD.  but some of the questions are general to homeschooling and wanted to share that looking back perspective now that I have one in college.

 

Yes to the bolded. Carrie really is pretty clear in her description of the full English credit.  BJU, lit. analysis. 5 full novels.  R&S grammar. EIW.  all working together for 1 full credit of English.  I can't remember where her explanation is, but I remember her explaining it clearly how it all fit together.  On their message board, there is a thread called, "reasons behind HOD choices", and there are thorough explanations when she gives sneak peeks of the new guides.  So for anyone unclear about the logic behind her choices, there is quite a bit of detail.  

[abrightmom]

I think that's a common thing in homeschooling the oldest.  We're just not sure.  I certainly wasn't.  Yet with all of the struggles, worries, fears, etc...  and even negative talk on forums about stuff I picked to use (not HOD by the way), my oldest has thrived academically in college this year.  can I brag? thanks.  4.0, with full load both semesters.   even got A in English composition in spite of my lack of knowledge how to teach writing!  I did ask friends and husband to help with editing and making suggestions.   We did a less than perfect and less than ideal approach to check writing level:  we ran the flesch kincaid levels from our word processing.  that showed us that at least someone had to be at certain reading ability to read what she wrote.  Does that sound like anything in some book about how to get a solid writer? No.

 

not bad for double major elec. engineering and comp sci? right?  she also did very well in her humanities classes. (I liked how using Economics in a Box helped for that, but that's not the topic here....)

 

so what really helped her in college?  She had to learn to stay on track with a syllabus and meet deadlines.  Read the syllabus. read books.  have an opinion of her own.  and we told her over and over:  go to office hours and ask for help.    She was amazed that some friends she made in first semester who went to group schools (private and public) struggled with the idea of reading a syllabus and doing what it says.

 

if you want more insight into her English classes...  ask me.  you might think "what?? really?   what is it a junior college?"  nope....  but you might be surprised at what first semester composition was and was it was not.

 

by the way, I now understand what you were asking about the 5 extra books in the literature/english credit.  Maybe someone else answered this already and I missed that.  I'm old and need new bifocals so if someone said this already, I missed it. 

But my youngest was baking cookies last night and from that, I think I might understand HOD"s motivation for adding reading.  I reserve the right to be wrong on this.   I think it is not uncommon among homeschoolers who prefer classical or CM to want to read a complete novel as part of English credit.  BJU book is about studying "parts of literature analysis" across several authors and works.  So, I think HOD adds in "read these novels" to add in the missing FLAVOR in the purely textbook literature credit.   This is just like my youngest who made cookies last night.  The peanut butter cookies on their own were complete cookie.   But we had some chocolate chunks in the cabinet.  She wanted to add that FLAVOR in small bites to the batter.   and that's what's in my brain about adding 5 novels over the year in HOD while they schedule a textbook literature approach.

 

I could be wrong as I have not used HOD.   But that is what I'm seeing when I look at their website.   read complete novel instead of just textbook parts of novel to learn parts.  and now that I typed that out?  I remember that is how it was done in my advanced track classes and AP class in my own high school days.  We had our Textbook to use, but we had to read novels as well. 

 

again, I don't use HOD.  but some of the questions are general to homeschooling and wanted to share that looking back perspective now that I have one in college.

Crystal,

 

I want to hug you! Great post addressing homeschool in general. LOVE it and appreciate your years of ministry to the homeschool community. Can I just say that God is good? In the midst of the dark and hard and crazy and overwhelming our gracious God is there. There is NO FORMULA. I'm totally LOVING hearing about your oldest!! That is so awesome.  :hurray: And I know that you used "light" and "not enough" MFW (snort, chortle) and *gasp* Writing Strands and *gasp again* NOT rigorous traditional grammar and ..... YOU and YOUR DAUGHTER ROCKED IT.  :coolgleamA:

[mymommy1]

I just want to say that I appreciate this thread.  I appreciate seeing two sides to picking curriculum, not just good or bad.  You hear one thing here; another thing there.  It's hard sometimes to desifer why it worked for this one and not the other.  You've all given details about the specific problems for your family or lack of problems and that is helping me make decisions.  I love that we have freedom to do what is best for our families!

[Guest]

.............

 

[cbollin]

I'd looking forward to hearing how it goes in a few years for those who use HOD in high school and how the transition goes.   From listening to my dd's first year I know some homeschoolers had struggles, and that was true for those from public/private schools too.   even though my kid ended with that wow o wow grades, she had learning curve too.     I'm guessing there will be stories out there that others who used the same stuff we did will say "eek!  we didn't have that kind of grade report in college.. "  (but thanks for letting me brag a bit!!!! )

 

I know looking through the book lists on HOD's stuff, I completely understand why there are concerns about high school selections and how it pans out and all of that. so I agree with OP and how important it is to understand the method and to have those check points along the way even if a teacher guide isn't listing it. (I know I felt that way about stuff I used)

 

 

oh katrina.. giggle.... don't remind me about writing strands.  I like to just forget that happened..  :lol:

[3girls4me]

Just resurrecting this thread to ask what everyone thinks of using HOD CTC and above for history only?

[MrsMe]

I think the history choices are fine if you enjoy her choices and I always have, although some spines not so much.  I think you can add what you've learned in grammar and writing. Seems like a given but be aware of doing it more, by utilizing the note-taking or outlining or writing a letter to someone you read about.  Apply those to history and drop some of the basic narrations.   There's a place for a short narration and a long narration, because it's detail vs main idea, but not through WG anymore.  I would add getting the students into more mental connections and opinions or add to the Biblical connections.  I'd drop the busywork.  First, I'd read CM narrations though.  I think it can work that way, just getting them started sooner on thought. Plus by doing that you'll understand what the expectations truly are.  SCM's site has a "Narrations" book you can buy I think it's $15..  It's quite helpful for the CM method. 

[Tidbits of Learning]

I think the history choices are fine if you enjoy her choices and I always have, although some spines not so much.  I think you can add what you've learned in grammar and writing. Seems like a given but be aware of doing it more, by utilizing the note-taking or outlining or writing a letter to someone you read about.  Apply those to history and drop some of the basic narrations.   There's a place for a short narration and a long narration, because it's detail vs main idea, but not through WG anymore.  I would add getting the students into more mental connections and opinions or add to the Biblical connections.  I'd drop the busywork.  First, I'd read CM narrations though.  I think it can work that way, just getting them started sooner on thought. Plus by doing that you'll understand what the expectations truly are.  SCM's site has a "Narrations" book you can buy I think it's $15..  It's quite helpful for the CM method. 

 

It becomes a very expensive history course.  The older guides especially have the economy package running upwards of $300+ to $500 depending on your choices.  Some have extra packages to study specific things like state study, signers, Shakespeare, and such.  My original plan was to add a lot to HOD to make it work for us. I actually only purchased HOD's economy package for WG for history and religion.  I spent $450.  For the cost, it is a very expensive history and religion course.  I probably got back about 50% of that when I sold it practically brand new.  

I don't see the cost going under $300 for history/Bible in the high school guides.  I think CTC is the last one that is $198.  The rest are $300+.  So that would be one consideration if you are planning to just use history.  Also, there are no packages that do not include Bible with the History so you will be buying Bible and History if you purchase their cheapest package.  If you just want history, buying the individual books and guide, and notebooking pages would cost almost the same as the economy package.  The history also takes upwards of 3-4 boxes of the guides the further you get into the guides.  So it actually has you doing a lot of things for the notebooking pages within those boxes.  If you sub out more complex assignments and get rid of the busy work, you are paying a lot for a reading list for history and books.  At least that is how I would see it long term.  

From CTC-MTMM (4 guides), you would pay $1100+ for history and Bible.  That is a pretty pricey budget for 2 courses.

[3girls4me]

Yikes! Haven't really thought of the cost factor. Thanks for bringing that up.

I'm also considering sonlight and beautiful feet. I hear BF has a pretty strong providential history slant though.

[Chelli]

Yikes! Haven't really thought of the cost factor. Thanks for bringing that up.

I'm also considering sonlight and beautiful feet. I hear BF has a pretty strong providential history slant though.

 

I don't believe that's true anymore. The few books that they used that had that tone to them have been removed from the packages and replaced with other books. I'm using their Ancient History and haven't noticed anything like that. It is definitely Christian based, but no providential stuff that I've found. And I am NOT a providential history believer.

[3girls4me]

I don't believe that's true anymore. The few books that they used that had that tone to them have been removed from the packages and replaced with other books. I'm using their Ancient History and haven't noticed anything like that. It is definitely Christian based, but no providential stuff that I've found. And I am NOT a providential history believer.

Thank for clarifying that.

Have you been pleased with beautiful feet? Do you find that it is a better program than Heart of Dakota or SL? If you were mainly going for history?

[Serenade]

I don't believe that's true anymore. The few books that they used that had that tone to them have been removed from the packages and replaced with other books. I'm using their Ancient History and haven't noticed anything like that. It is definitely Christian based, but no providential stuff that I've found. And I am NOT a providential history believer.

 

This is good to hear.  Thanks!