forty-two Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Is this even possible, for a likely gifted and VSL student with phonological processing weaknesses and maybe dyslexia and/or dysgraphia? So the "no school for two years" thread gave me a kick in the pants to break out of the winter doldrums. And I was looking at what works and what doesn't, and what works is "do the next thing" open-and-go programs. What sort of works is following a scope-and-sequence in a subject I know inside and out, but where I have to create my own custom materials each day (I lose time by making them just-in-time, right before handing them to the kids). What only works on good days are teacher-intensive programs that require me to learn it before I can teach it. What doesn't work ever are open-and-go programs that aren't, because dd8 isn't an open-and-go kid (the pattern inevitably is that day 1 is a good fit, right amount of challenge; day 2 is teetering on too easy; day 3 is just this side of mind-numbingly boring; day 4, if I even try, is a disaster; re-place and repeat until I give up in frustration). Either I turn them into an expensive scope and sequence and source of problems (although often trying to adapt the problems is more work than making up my own) or I chuck them entirely. I wanted to simplify things by switching to open-and-go programs in the three R's: a math program to replace my custom stuff loosely based on Singapore Math and a spelling/writing program to replace custom spelling/copywork/dictation and to give me something that can be done every day (unlike LiPS, which is a good-day-only curriculum). All our content subjects are read alouds where we just "read the next chapter", which works (and as such has formed the base of our schooling). Despite needing LiPS, dd8 is a prolific reader well above grade level (reads for hours a day) and gets a lot of content that way, too. But as I started researching new programs, and thinking about whether I need yet *another* program when I have all these programs collecting dust on the shelf, and so thinking about why is it that I'm not using the ones I have, I was forcibly reminded that we've never managed to use a math or spelling curricula as written for more than three days, ever. Even my custom spelling stuff, going through the book I used to teach her to read, spelling the words with tiles and then using the sentences as dictation, is hitting the "third day boredom" problem. (She drew between every word - it was basically drawing time interrupted by the occasional word.) Placing her is trying to hit a moving target, and the gap is huge (and seemingly growing) between her pace of learning and her interest on the one hand, and her ability to hear and manipulate sounds on the other (and write - her stamina is well below her peers (although she's improving there recently), and she needs a ton of white space - one of the many reasons me writing up custom work is so helpful). In math she's such a concept girl, but is held back by her calculating ability (and difficulties lining up her own problems - I mostly scribe writing out problems), and IDK how to realistically get non-soul-killing daily calculation practice in while simultaneously feeding her concept-love - it tends to be one or the other, calculation practice until the boredom/soul-killing becomes an issue, and concept focus until lack of calculation becomes an issue, and though it works, it feel very haphazard and inefficient, and involves hitting more roadblocks (with attendant tears) than I like. Also, I'm feeling increasingly at a loss with how to provide concepts, and it's been more of a calculating focus lately, which generally requires me to sit next to her and constantly redirect her back to her work. I know, evals would help make the whole thing less of a shot in the dark. And we could use our tax return to do it - I haven't because we have a very limited savings that only gets replenished from our annual refund and this would be a giant chunk - but I've been battling the moving-target-placement issue and the wide divergence between her strengths and her weaknesses for a while now, and while the custom work *does* work, it's still a rapid series of shots in the dark some days. But tbh, trying to find the doctors and make the appointments and find the money and deal with insurance - all that's all pretty darn overwhelming itself - how do I find the energy for *that*? I mean, I have phone phobia - the idea of calling all those strange offices and talking to all those strange people is overwhelming itself. The whole point of this was to *reduce* my workload, not add to it tenfold, kwim? And also, what do I do in the meantime? How do you streamline and reduce your workload to what you are able to get done each and every day, when you've got a kid who defies all norms??? (Programs I have, if anyone has suggestions how to make them work for both me and dd8: Math: Miquon, Life of Fred, Singapore Math, RS Activities for the ALabacus & card games, Beast Academy 3a, Kitchen Table Math 1-3 LoF is the only program that's actually worked for more than a week, so it would be our best bet; we're doing it as a fun supplement now, so dd8's only in Cats, which is pretty behind where she can calculate. I guess we could pair custom five-a-day practice to keep up her current skills while we do several chapters of LoF each day till we caught up. Spelling: WRTR, SWR, AAS 1, Words, R&S 2, Spelling Through Morphographs; of these, StM looks the most likely to get done on my end, but IDK whether it will work for dd8, although I'm going to give her the placement test to see if she's got the necessary skills to start it. I'd love to do LiPS every day, but the prep is killing me. Suggestions on streamlining and routinizing the process of making custom work are welcome, too.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 Complicating this is that I'm just about on the verge of making a doctor's appointment for *me*, because of unexplained fatigue. I really don't think I'm well, and it limits what I can do, which is why I wanted to reassess and streamline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycc Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Reading Pathway readers and the workbooks Math-Saxon math or CLE maybe Spelling-Megawords or Apples and Pears I learned that some programs have a lot of manipulatives and too many different activities that end up distracting the flow of teaching and I lose their focus and then it extends the teaching which makes them miserable and hate school. I have learned---short and sweet, plain and simple --book/pencil, black and white, one or two simple manipulative and boom the curriculum is done, concept retained and everyone is happy. Play education board games/games on bad days. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I typed up a response & deleted but I'll try again...I'm ditto'ing happycc because I like her recommendations.I think many of the curricula you listed are too 'exploration' based & too time intensive. They can work for certain families, but if they're not working for you right now, ditch them. There's no shame in moving to a more 'open, teach, repeat' curriculum. I think some of the things you've listed are frankly just too airy-fairy. They require a certain type of student and a certain type of parent to implement well. For some of us, a book that says "say this. Repeat it. Write it down. Have student read it. Have student write it. Correct as they go along." etc is what's needed. Those things were much more likely to get done here.ETA - "don't ditch curricula too early." :) The only exceptions are the ones you get in the mail & open the box & go 'what was I thinking???' Usually you know within the first lesson that it's just not going to work. There are only a handful of things that I bought which never got used & almost all of them were of the "this is better because it teaches REAL understanding" variety (complete with the slight air of disdain for the other curricula which just teach kids to 'parrot'). I got sucked into the hype ;)You mention some open & go things didn't work either because they weren't really open & go or because your dd would essential balk at some point. The suggestions from happy cc are all good options. And I'd gently suggest that every curriculum will suck at some point, your dc won't like it some days, some days you won't like it, some days it will be boring, some days it will be confusing for either one or both of you... That's ok. Just open the book & carry on. Give it several months (or a whole semester) of solid use before deciding whether a curriculum will work or not & whether you want to continue or switch for the next level. Don't expect to love every minute of every day.Consider too how much actual teaching you're doing. I still get into the trap of thinking "I've explained it to you, shown you an example, you're read the explanation WHY ARE YOU NOT GETTING IT?" That's how it is sometimes. Sometimes you have to explain, explain again, skip it, cycle back next week, explain in a different way, forget about it & move on again. Expect this to happen.Also consider your expectations for her output. Are they reasonable? In a classroom, the teacher is doing a lot of talking, demonstrating, & the kids are not working independently for long periods of time. One on one, I know I was guilty of overloading my kids when they were young.Evals would be good but I also think your child is young & I don't think it would be necessarily wrong to decide on a tincture of time & reassess how things are next year, after you're actually used a single curriculum for a longer period.. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Yeah, I did a lot of buying-ahead-used, and my ambitions for what sort of teacher I'd be do not match my current reality ;). I gave dd8 the StM placement test, and she did surprisingly well - got everything but "such" and "teeth", even got all the nonsense words. I might try starting it, or maybe I could continue what I've been doing but just skip ahead to the consonant digraphs - she was just placed too low. (She saw me looking at Spelling You See today, though, and rather likes the looks of that, and it's got open-and-go copywork/dictation.) WRT powering through the dull bits: it's not so much being dull, but that keeping her focused becomes a full time task. I don't know how much is her preference for novelty and how much is she's already mastered it, but whatever it is, day 1 she can focus beautifully and enjoys the challenge, and by day 3 she's more distractable than her little sister and I'm having to redirect her literally every 30 seconds (skipping ahead resets the clock back to day 1 if I can find the right place to skip to, but finding the right place isn't always easy to find). The amount of doodling on the margin of the page tracks this - on good days, with a good mental challenge, there's hardly any doodling. On bad days, the entire page is covered with doodles but the actual problems are blank (if I sit with her the entire time and direct her through the page still gets covered in doodles but at least the work gets done, too ;)). She'll do her best to refocus when I point her back, but her attention inevitably wanders within seconds. It's important to learn to focus no matter what, but days upon days of work that's that unengaging is kind of hell for both of us. And the worst part is that she *loves* math when there's a mental challenge - will spend hours on it of her own accord. And it feels like I'm ruining math for her when it turns into nothing more than day after day of drudgery, kwim? It doesn't have to be a laugh a minute, but there ought to be sufficient material to engage the mind more often than not, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycc Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Keep it short and sweet. Short and sweet even if a bit boring is ok. 10 minutes is all you need for reading to start with and you can build up from there. Once you get her reading strong and well you can start moving into grammar and such. FLL/WWE etc. Those are good open and get it done but start slow. SMALL bits of time. 5-10 minutes, then move on to something else...go over over and over again. When I did FLL1 with my then 2nd grader. I was pulling my hair worried she wasnt going to get the concepts but then after her having her do FLL 2, 3 and 4 ...um she gets the concepts now! First time is exposure, 2nd time is review, 3rd time is review again and deeper and 4th time has been more of pulling it altogether mastery of it all. Then we move into AG Jr. which is more of the same and fine by me. I have come to love overteaching because then I am not frustrated at her. The curriculum does it for you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Fortunately (miraculously) she's reading well. I appreciate the suggestions, but they all sound very parts-to-whole, and dd8 does so much better with big picture, story-based things. (I think that's why LoF has been a consistent hit.) Are there any whole-to-parts and/or story-based open-and-go programs for skills? Or am I just dreaming - that 10-15 minutes of taking our math medicine and spelling medicine and grammar medicine and writing medicine's really the way it's got to be right now? In which case I guess I'd alternate back-and-forth between skill medicine and content feasting in our homeschool day. That's a lot of transitions, though - right now it's content-centered morning time first (everyone's happy to get started on that) followed by math and reading/spelling blocks (with a read aloud/snack break between the skill blocks), to minimize the number of times I have to corral everyone. But sometimes we only get one skill block in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Have you thought about asking the ps for evals? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Have you thought about asking the ps for evals? No? :tongue_smilie: I have no idea what the law is here or what sorts of services the ps provides wrt evals - probably a good thing to look into :yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamanthaCarter Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Oh my forty-two, you are so describing DS and myself, it's not even funny. Right down to the almost ready to schedule an appointment for myself from unexplained fatigue. And your daughter - so much like my son! <<<hug>>> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Fortunately (miraculously) she's reading well. I appreciate the suggestions, but they all sound very parts-to-whole, and dd8 does so much better with big picture, story-based things. (I think that's why LoF has been a consistent hit.) Are there any whole-to-parts and/or story-based open-and-go programs for skills? Or am I just dreaming - that 10-15 minutes of taking our math medicine and spelling medicine and grammar medicine and writing medicine's really the way it's got to be right now? In which case I guess I'd alternate back-and-forth between skill medicine and content feasting in our homeschool day. That's a lot of transitions, though - right now it's content-centered morning time first (everyone's happy to get started on that) followed by math and reading/spelling blocks (with a read aloud/snack break between the skill blocks), to minimize the number of times I have to corral everyone. But sometimes we only get one skill block in. For the most part you are just dreaming. Sorry! MCT might be close, or Sentence Family, but skills are a huge struggle for 2Es. That is the gap that pretty much defines 2E. There isn't really a great way to get them down other than to just do them in short chunks and progress forward. The fun part is the content, which for young 2Es often needs to be separated from the skills work. What are you using currently for spelling/grammar/LA skills? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 For the most part you are just dreaming. Sorry! MCT might be close, or Sentence Family, but skills are a huge struggle for 2Es. That is the gap that pretty much defines 2E. There isn't really a great way to get them down other than to just do them in short chunks and progress forward. The fun part is the content, which for young 2Es often needs to be separated from the skills work. What are you using currently for spelling/grammar/LA skills? Yeah, I was afraid of that. I haven't done any grammar yet (was focusing on handwriting/spelling), and our spelling is LiPS when I can and otherwise working our way through the word list from Let's Read (it's the program I used to teach her to read and has lots of sentences with 100% known words I can use for dictation, which dd8 likes well enough) - she spells the words with Dekodiphukan sound picture tiles and then writes them, and then we do sentence dictation (with the writing on a whiteboard with colored markers because that makes it more fun/palatable). For LA we do copywork (dd8 usually chooses verses from hymns we are learning) and oral narration of all content work. The narration is rather like pulling teeth, tbh - output's always been a bit of a struggle. And I've been trying to figure out how to increase the amount of copywork; she does about two short sentences worth a day, and that's pretty comfortable now - I can leave her unattended and it gets done ;). But I can't fit too much on a page without causing problems (she locks up), so I leave lots of white space between words and don't fill the entire page, and she's not a fan of doing more than a page at a time. We've also started cursive, at her request, and it's done wonders for her handwriting in general, actually. Today with the StM placement test she had to write 20 short words, and I wasn't actually sure if we could do it all at once, but she didn't have a problem - it's like she's finally getting automatic at it, not having to use so much of her brain on just trying to get the letters written :thumbup:. And actually, wrt the copywork, she can do her page in 2-3 minutes now, compared to taking 10 at the beginning of the year, and with better writing, too. And even in the last few weeks her spelling in her own writing has improved quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I did not read all replies... so sorry if this repeats what's been said. Do next thing works well for us too. My ds was not reading at age 8, so a lot of what you are dealing with was different for us at that time. But my over all suggestions are 1) decide on a length of time per subject per day that is reasonable. (Maybe 10 min per day spelling, 1 hour per day math, or whatever you think, but make sure it seems doable for both her and you. Maybe some subjects are not needed every day.) Each day, work on the subject for the length of time predetermined by doing the next thing. 2) Choose or let your daughter choose which math out of the ones you have she will do, either day after day or on any particular day. It looks like you have a bunch of good options, and so long as she is making progress it does not matter if it is with LOF or KTM or SM. But I think you have too many and need to simplify whether by her choosing or you choosing. 3) Some subjects just are not very fun and interesting. For most people that includes spelling, for example, unless someone happens to love it or gets excited by word roots or something related. Do your 10 minutes or whatever and be done with it. Spend your time and energy looking for interesting programs in areas that are more likely to be fun and interesting. 4) A lot of skills work in writing areas may come along in the process of working on composition. possibly to be continued after I look back at your OP questions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I wanted to simplify things by switching to open-and-go programs in the three R's: a math program to replace my custom stuff loosely based on Singapore Math and a spelling/writing program to replace custom spelling/copywork/dictation and to give me something that can be done every day (unlike LiPS, which is a good-day-only curriculum). All our content subjects are read alouds where we just "read the next chapter", which works (and as such has formed the base of our schooling). Despite needing LiPS, dd8 is a prolific reader well above grade level (reads for hours a day) and gets a lot of content that way, too. But as I started researching new programs, and thinking about whether I need yet *another* program when I have all these programs collecting dust on the shelf, and so thinking about why is it that I'm not using the ones I have, I was forcibly reminded that we've never managed to use a math or spelling curricula as written for more than three days, ever. Even my custom spelling stuff, going through the book I used to teach her to read, spelling the words with tiles and then using the sentences as dictation, is hitting the "third day boredom" problem. (She drew between every word - it was basically drawing time interrupted by the occasional word.) Placing her is trying to hit a moving target, and the gap is huge (and seemingly growing) between her pace of learning and her interest on the one hand, and her ability to hear and manipulate sounds on the other (and write - her stamina is well below her peers (although she's improving there recently), and she needs a ton of white space - one of the many reasons me writing up custom work is so helpful). In math she's such a concept girl, but is held back by her calculating ability (and difficulties lining up her own problems - I mostly scribe writing out problems), and IDK how to realistically get non-soul-killing daily calculation practice in while simultaneously feeding her concept-love - it tends to be one or the other, calculation practice until the boredom/soul-killing becomes an issue, and concept focus until lack of calculation becomes an issue, and though it works, it feel very haphazard and inefficient, and involves hitting more roadblocks (with attendant tears) than I like. Also, I'm feeling increasingly at a loss with how to provide concepts, and it's been more of a calculating focus lately, which generally requires me to sit next to her and constantly redirect her back to her work. And also, what do I do in the meantime? How do you streamline and reduce your workload to what you are able to get done each and every day, when you've got a kid who defies all norms??? (Programs I have, if anyone has suggestions how to make them work for both me and dd8: Math: Miquon, Life of Fred, Singapore Math, RS Activities for the ALabacus & card games, Beast Academy 3a, Kitchen Table Math 1-3 LoF is the only program that's actually worked for more than a week, so it would be our best bet; we're doing it as a fun supplement now, so dd8's only in Cats, which is pretty behind where she can calculate. I guess we could pair custom five-a-day practice to keep up her current skills while we do several chapters of LoF each day till we caught up. Spelling: WRTR, SWR, AAS 1, Words, R&S 2, Spelling Through Morphographs; of these, StM looks the most likely to get done on my end, but IDK whether it will work for dd8, although I'm going to give her the placement test to see if she's got the necessary skills to start it. I'd love to do LiPS every day, but the prep is killing me. Suggestions on streamlining and routinizing the process of making custom work are welcome, too.) Math: I think you need, for your own health, not to make custom work. Please choose a math program and do that daily with occasional forays into something else for a fun supplement break. The one program I do not see that I would consider is MUS. It is a very clean page lay out with not too much on each page, crisp and clear, black and white, lots of white space! program which may be a big help to you, and if she "gets it" she can do just one page and move on, but if she needs more practice, then there are several pages of practice available for each new concept. I would seriously consider MUS for your basic get er done program and then LOF or BA for more mental stimulation fun. I'd even consider using LOF or BA as the reward for doing MUS in a get 'er done way. For example, have her do 1/2 hour of MUS daily followed by 1/2 hour of her favorite other program such as LOF...or BA. Spelling: the only program that seems to have worked at all for my ds is Spelling Power (along with the notebooks made for it so there was nothing for me to do other than read the word lists to him)...but waiting till he was older seemed to work better than trying as an uphill battle when he was younger. I wish I'd tried the spelling program that went with his reading program, but I didn't so I'll never know. If she is "bored" because she knows something already, move on. If she is "bored" because skill work is hard for her, cut down the amount to a reasonable time, say only 5 minutes, but insist on proper attention and focus for the five minutes. If you need to, work up from 1 minute with proper focus and attention. It sounds like there is a focus and attention problem that needs work as much as spelling or math does. If you need to, defer some skills like spelling to when she is more mature and can focus better without drawing between words, or maybe an evaluation will show what is going on there. I'd suggest you get her onto typing. And some typing programs can help with reading /spelling to some degree. talkingfingers.com readwritetype would probably be my first choice of ones I know. Complicating this is that I'm just about on the verge of making a doctor's appointment for *me*, because of unexplained fatigue. I really don't think I'm well, and it limits what I can do, which is why I wanted to reassess and streamline. Yeah. Totally. Put your own oxygen mask on, as it were, before you help your children get theirs on! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Yeah, I was afraid of that. I haven't done any grammar yet (was focusing on handwriting/spelling), and our spelling is LiPS when I can and otherwise working our way through the word list from Let's Read (it's the program I used to teach her to read and has lots of sentences with 100% known words I can use for dictation, which dd8 likes well enough) - she spells the words with Dekodiphukan sound picture tiles and then writes them, and then we do sentence dictation (with the writing on a whiteboard with colored markers because that makes it more fun/palatable). For LA we do copywork (dd8 usually chooses verses from hymns we are learning) and oral narration of all content work. The narration is rather like pulling teeth, tbh - output's always been a bit of a struggle. And I've been trying to figure out how to increase the amount of copywork; she does about two short sentences worth a day, and that's pretty comfortable now - I can leave her unattended and it gets done ;). But I can't fit too much on a page without causing problems (she locks up), so I leave lots of white space between words and don't fill the entire page, and she's not a fan of doing more than a page at a time. We've also started cursive, at her request, and it's done wonders for her handwriting in general, actually. Today with the StM placement test she had to write 20 short words, and I wasn't actually sure if we could do it all at once, but she didn't have a problem - it's like she's finally getting automatic at it, not having to use so much of her brain on just trying to get the letters written :thumbup:. And actually, wrt the copywork, she can do her page in 2-3 minutes now, compared to taking 10 at the beginning of the year, and with better writing, too. And even in the last few weeks her spelling in her own writing has improved quite a bit. It sounds like your approach is coming along for your dd. For my ds who may be more extremely 2E than your dd perhaps, I gave up on work on handwriting entirely. He can type increasingly well. Eventually he will learn to sign his own name fully. He can write in manuscript enough to probably get by with filling out an application or that sort of thing. And he does do math with a pencil on paper, specifically graph paper so that it helps keep things lined up well. We also gave up on copywork for the most part. Though his second typing program had some he enjoyed--copying in typing some of A Christmas Carol, and some other classics, I think it was. And he did a bit for 6th grade as part of Hake grammar. He can do composition far better than dictation, narration, grammar, spelling and various other skills that are supposed to come first. For him it did not work that way. The reality is different than the theory. I am teaching a child, not a theory. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Ooh, Math-U-See looks promising :thumbup:. How do you do composition? I admit the thought of doing composition intimidates me, but I think dd would enjoy it. She tends to do better with creative, big picture tasks than the various sub skills that make up the task, and she's occasionally used the iPad to write stories. Dd8 uses the computer some in her free time, but she hasn't done anything to learn to touch type yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 How do you do composition? We started out as a "get over a hump" by using a Bravewriter online class, specifically Kidswrite Basic--I had the written Bravewriter material, but found implementing it much easier with the online class to help work through a project from start to finish. My ds was in 4th grade at the time, and was one of the youngest in the class at the time, I think--with the average age about 14. They may have an even lower level more suited to your dd's age, that goes along with Partnership Writing or Jot It Down. After the online class in which he wrote a few paragraphs, he went on to write about 14 pages using the same system, which BW considered good for a year at that stage. (I have posted more on that experience -- if you search "viking longships" here you will find it.) Then he did a lot of poetry, pretty much just poetry for 5th grade. Usually I'd give him a word prompt and he'd run with it. No, wait, also he did some story writing imitating some books he liked, but never finished any of them. It was still good practice. More recently, ds has done essays on www.hogwartsishere.com (that kind of only works for Harry Potter fans)--mainly he did ones for the astronomy class which is almost 100% the same as astronomy in real world, focus on our solar system (assignments like choose a favorite constellation and write about it, or describe the surface of Mercury based on online pictures) and as parent you can help out to brainstorm ideas, jot down notes for it and so on. He usually takes more than a day to work on his essays for it even though he is older than your dd. He'll write maybe 50 or 100 words per session on our own Word/Pages type program, and then when it is done, posts it onto the website, since a lot of writing at once is hard for him. All that he does is typed--either with him typing, or sometimes he will dictate and I type for him. I am not sure he could have done it though, without the Bravewriter stuff first, to help him understand the process of first freewriting, and then revising, and finally polishing. The hogwarts essays allow noting if there is a learning disability in which case they do not take off points for spelling or grammar type problems. Even more recently he has been writing book reviews, which sounds easy, maybe easier than writing a description of Mercury, but actually it is much harder because he has to dig into himself to find what he liked about a book, or did not like, not just to summarize the plot, and that digging inside is hard for him. But it could be it is easier for someone else. Math-U-See is not super exciting, but it is very get er done, and everything he learned with it is solid. It was excellent with his dyslexia issues which needed very clear type face, lots of white space and so on, when most other programs were too busy or too cramped as to their pages. He is now doing a Saxon/AoPS combo at the pre-Algebra stage, but Beast was not yet published in time for him and also not crisp clear black and white and with enough white space to be visually easy as a get er done, and Saxon for the early years was much too wordy, cramped and slow for him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I guess what's confusing to me (either because I have a headache or because it is) is that you seem worried about things that, when you explain her work further, turn out to be developmentally on-track. You say she needs LIPS, but then she can write from dictation, spell, and pass a placement test. You say things that sound like she might need an OT eval, then you describe her doing a page of copywork in 2 minutes. I guess to me I haven't seen anything really concrete and consistent in this thread except the attention symptoms and (not meaning to be impolite) discipline problems. Now it's normal for ADHD and giftedness to go together, and it's also common to end up with an IQ that *isn't* what you expected. Personally, I'd suggest you do some reading on the thing that is most consistent in your comments: ADHD. And I think you'll find with it the buzzword is STRUCTURE. You can even do interest-led and still have structure. You seem to have a love of variety and things fresh/new, so you might consider a loop schedule for structure. Structure just means clear, consistent expectations. You might find it helpful to put those expectations or the plan where she can see them. I have a pocket chart for my ds with every day, every major activity, all written in cards, so he can SEE the plan and flip the cards as we do them. That's structure. And you work with her ahead of time and say this is the card that says table work, and this is the card that says free reading. You do the table work card and then you do the free reading card. Structure, clear expectations. Doesn't have to be parent-driven, but it needs to be a plan so they know the plan. My kids are entropy in action. I even schedule my dd's math with alarms on the computer, if you can imagine. That just works for us. We agree to it ahead of time and that's how it is. I was like you, with so many ideas I didn't want to pin them down for fear of not accomplishing them all. I'm a lot more plodding now, 11+ years into it. I do a lot with *chunking* where I chunk things into doable amounts and we make the plan and work the plan. Don't assume her flightiness and particularness is because she's so all-fired brilliant. It's more likely she needs consistent routines and structure to settle down into the plan. They DON'T have to be lots of academics. It can be as simple as: "Every morning we eat breakfast and then sit down at the table for an hour. Then, when that hour of table work is done, you tell me your plan and disappear." And you make your plans to keep that one hour super banging fast with like 5 things you're trying to get done. That's at least how I work with my kids. We have to set the tone by accepting that our *own* wishes and ideas aren't all going to happen and have to be reigned in, and then we can make tight, finite, doable plans for our kids and give them that balance of structured expectations and free time. Sermon over. :) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Yeah, structure is both needed and hard for me to implement. (I love to plan, but making plans that are actually doable by the real me (as opposed to the ideal me), well, it's a work in progress ;).). Teacher intensive stuff inevitably becomes twice a week instead of every day, and I want to nip that in the bud wrt the three Rs. And this thread is helping me organize my thoughts and evaluate what really does get done and what doesn't. That said, I really do think there is *something* different with dd8. The writing only blossomed this week, really. And she's spelling based on pure visual memory - and that's just blossomed this week, too. But she can't segment anything beyond a cvc word, and that only just. And she's noticed a difference between herself and others when it comes to spelling and writing. And whether flighty and normal or flighty and exceptional she needs to learn to calculate - I just want to feed her interest in math at the same time, kwim? But idk, hitting dd8's sweet spot wrt skills practice is *hard* and always has been, in a way that it just isn't for dd6. Not so much a matter of intelligence but a matter of having a narrow optimum window, and non-optimum is *really* not optimum. Oh, idk, I really don't think I'm making it all up, but at the same time it all might be taken care of by steady daily taking one's medicine skills practice. Which needs to be done in any case, so it makes a good focus. (Is it better or worse that the majority of the programs on my shelf were bought ahead of time and have just never been used instead of bought, tried and discarded? Math has been SM with varying levels of modification and/or LoF, and spelling has been copywork, LiPS, and going through the Let's Read (minus two disastrous weeks with R&S 2 last year). I'm flighty, but not nearly as flighty as my list of curricula owned makes me sound ;); I stress *buy* at the drop of a hat, but I don't jump ship nearly as quickly. Although they aren't all useless - I do regularly pull ideas from them and incorporate them into my teaching. And it mostly has worked. It's just a fair bit of effort. And I'd sort of like to be able to do a program pretty much as written and have it pretty much work. Or at least have the *option* to do so. SM is a constant dance of flying ahead or parking for weeks, and it's getting to be a bit much at the moment. I don't think it's *all* me, but it's probably partly me. Idk, the winter kills me and it all comes to a head in Feb/Mar. Whatever, I'm now armed with a plan that can be effective whether it's all in my head or not ;). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happycc Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Learning can be fun but most of the time it is hard work for many. It takes a good attitude and discipline without that sometimes no learning takes place. First take care of your health and mind. The mind and health of the parent teacher takes precedence over anything. Your household needs to function and kids can take advantage when you are not well. My son has not cooperated with me since Tuesday because I broke my foot. He knows I cannot chase him down and make him follow through as well as before. My dogs are even acting up because they know I am injured. Once you are well, we can come back and talk again. Maybe things will look much brighter once things are better for you healthwise. When I am ill, my mind is just cloudy and not clear. Do the bear minimum schooling--computer based whatever until you are better. If you feel it is a long term thing, then that is another story to deal with and we can talk and slowly evaluate what is going on. I sense you have this view of how things you want it to be and you are not happy with the way things are for whatever reason. That was a really awkward sentence but I hope you get my drift. I have a baby in arms trying to color on me so it is affecting my focus a bit. Anyways, take a breather. Recharge and then reevaluate. Things might not be as bad you are seeing right now because of the way you are feeling, it might affect your view of things. Meanwhile, simplify simplify simplify and your child will survive with a boring curriculum during this time so mom can focus on getting better. It teaches her a lesson, that mom cant customize everything for her all the time. Sometimes moms need breaks and gets sick and it is ok to learn to live without a little. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Yeah, structure is both needed and hard for me to implement. I never said who needed the discipline. :D It seems like the achievement/psych testing, OT eval, SLP (to screen for APD), etc. the ps could do would be extremely helpful to you right now. It would cost you nothing except time and might give you concrete, actionable information. Yes, the drawing between words is the ADHD. Thing is, why is your session so slow that she CAN do that? You prepare ahead of time, know exactly what you want to do, and bam, bam, bam, like a machine gun. Dog trainers, tutors, these people work fast and furiously, very intensely. That's how you hold an ADHD person, but making them think and keeping it going. It's got to be very up-tempo. On LIPS, I did it with my son in 4-6 sessions a day, for a total of an hour, sometimes pushing a 1 1/2. If you wrap your brain around the program and sit down with her, you could probably do it and get it over with in a week or two. This is not meant to be a drag it out kind of thing. She's not likely to have severe dyslexia, not when she's fluently on grade level, with no comprehension issues, and able to spell via visualization (an ADHD strength, btw). It makes you wonder if she has had her hearing checked. I took my ds in recently, because I wanted to make sure. Working memory also impacts someone's ability to remember the word and break it apart. LIPS is intended to build working memory, but you've got to realize that's therapy and that it has to be done INTENSIVELY and aggressively to get the progress you're wanting. What you might consider doing is setting aside a couple other things and telling her a new deal. Tell her for the next 2 weeks we're gonna do more LIPS than you ever imagined possible. We're only going to work in 10 minute increments with a timer and we're gonna go FAST. We'll do this 6 times a day, and for every session you do that I'll give you $1 in this jar. I know you want (new super cool thing) and you can earn the money for it! Now my ds was more motivated by a prize at the end of the day, how simple. But an older kid, they probably want cash. But you pay/reward, up the intensity, and get it over with. Because, frankly, if an 8 yo child can't break apart a CVC word, it's time to figure out if it's hearing, dyslexia, whatever, and get it going. There's really not much else (science labs, whatever) that's as important. And if you are actually having trouble implementing the program (it's confusing to people) or getting compliance (also an issue for people), then outsource. Maybe you can find a Barton tutor and pay them to do it with her. Your work dynamic reminded me of dd in her younger days. It was partly that curriculum is incremental and boring and really didn't quite fit her right and partly another dynamic that took me a while to figure out. Her processing speed was low, and with that AND the attention, the work would wear her out. So what was complaining about it being boring and a bad fit and not interesting enough was actually that she was worn out from focusing the day before. Mondays would be bad transitioning back in, Tuesdays we'd work hard, Wednesdays iffy, Thursdays bad, and Fridays non-productive. And we went on like this for YEARS. That's when I figured out if we worked *under* her ability for load, we could do less work but do it consistently every day and have peace, meaning we got more done in the end. Hmm. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heathermomster Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I have never heard of anyone using LIPs quite the way that you have described. To me, LIPS training is foundational to reading and spelling. Have you considered paying an OG tutor to complete the LIPS training with your DD? Maybe I am wrong, but if your child really needs LIPS, I almost think you should stop spelling until the program is completed. Otherwise, spelling is simply handwriting practice, which is fine I suppose. Create handwriting sheets using spelling words. I create copywork sheets using Start Write software. You could also mix spelling up and use Spelling City, which is an online program. Either way, I would not expect LIPS to improve spelling until your DD has completed the program. FTR, spelling is one of those sticky areas with dyslexics, and one of the last skills to come along no matter how much phonics instruction they have had. For math, I keep MUS blocks nearby. If I sense a problem with a math concept, I pull out the MUS blocks and DD uses them. For facts practice, we also use Sheppard software and play math games using materials that I designed last year that incorporate dice and MUS blocks. RS Math sells a math games kit. I have never used it or seen it up close. DD uses Singapore, the Extra Math Practice booklet, and MCP Math. My DD burns through math. I give her so much to ensure she actually understands what she is doing and she does not balk. If LOF gives your DD delight, include it as an optional supplement. I see no point in making your DD hate LOF. Narrations..Your DD can orally narrate those across literature, history, and science. Scribe for her and practice making story sequence charts either by mindmapping by hand or with Inspiration software. Your DD can also give you 3-5 interesting facts about science or history. Do that one day and then use a handwriting sheet generator and type out one or two of her sentences for copywork the next day. If your child has dysgraphia, handwriting practice will only get her so far and then she will either need to learn to type or use a speech to text software. In the mean time, expect to scribe. DS learned to type by the end of 5th grade and it has made a significant difference in his academic life. ETA: Free grid paper link. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 SM is a constant dance of flying ahead or parking for weeks, and it's getting to be a bit much at the moment. This type of situation may fit with why I chose to do subjects by time rather than lesson or chapter for most of our home school. I would not automatically take that to mean there is a problem with SM. We had math as 1 hour per day 5 days per week from 2nd grade to 5th grade. Sometimes it flew ahead, sometimes a concept was more difficult and it went more slowly. But it progressed, and it was mastered as it progressed rather than moving at a set pace whether the concept was easy or hard and whether mastered or not. Sometimes math both moved ahead in some areas, and also needed more time and review in others and that was all right also. I think at one point in 3rd grade, for example, ds had started MUS Delta and was racing along in its easy beginning parts while still finishing off the hard end parts of MUS Gamma. Having some extra programs and materials was useful for when another way of doing something was needed, or when a break from a stuck point was needed. I recall in 3rd grade a stuck point with long division which was helped by switching over to partial quotient division for awhile and then going back to regular long division, for example. LOF was fun as long as it was a supplement. For ds trying to make it the main program ruined it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted June 13, 2015 Author Share Posted June 13, 2015 Thank you again for helping me :). Thought I'd post an update: I ended up keeping Singapore Math and just doubling down on doing every. single. problem. in the wb before tackling IP. It took about two weeks of having to walk her (or drag her, some days) through everything step-by-step but then something clicked and she settled in and was able to work more independently and without nearly as much fuss :thumbup:. She even liked the wb most of the time. Then when we finished the tb/wb and went back to the IP for that level, it was another two weeks or so of wailing and gnashing of teeth and me dragging her through it (she hated how "hard" it was - hated having to think :sigh - and was begging to go back to the wb) before she settled in and found her groove. We even went from her arguing with me about *verbally* putting the answer into a complete sentence to her voluntarily *writing* out the answer in a complete sentence herself :svengo:. So consistency ftw ;). For spelling I did buy the Wild Tales level of Spelling You See, because she wanted it so much. It was very pricey for one level (to me anyway), but the open-and-go factor is pretty awesome, and as I'm learning the marking system, I've been able to apply it to other copywork and dictation. The first week was disheartening, as after three days of marking and copying she still misspelled everything with a consonant blend during the dictation, but I added blends to the marking system, and that plus familiarity seems to be helping - the last two dictation days she got everything spelled right :thumbup:. For composition I got WWE level 2. (I had the overall WWE build-your-own program guide, but that had been staying on the shelf because it was too much work - got the already-done level for it's open-and-go-ness, and it delivers there.) It hits right at her weak point - putting thoughts into words in general and summarizing in particular (plus the complete sentences thing) - but she mostly doesn't mind it. And it's done wonders for her overall willingness to put thoughts into words (see answers to math word problems). And just in general her handwriting has improved quite a bit - she can write smaller and more legibly, and she's pretty thrilled about it :). And she getting more words spelled right in her own writing. For the summer we're just doing the three R's, and the above takes about 1-1.5hrs, and we are consistently getting it done. (Even when I have to drag her through it.) Thanks again for the support and the ideas and the kick in the pants ;). (Oh, and wrt me, since it's gotten light and warm again, I've been doing so much better. I spent a month sleeping 10 hours a night, which seemed to help me turn the corner on feeling draggy; I still aim for 8-9 hours a night, but now I can handle a day or two of short sleep. And I've gotten into a good exercise routine that's done wonders for my stress level and energy level (and overall sanity level ;)) and I'm making plans on how to keep it up once it gets dark and cold again.) 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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